Learning to Love Indifference

[AnthroHeart]

Yeah, I've had the eternal abyss type of experience, just, nothingness.

Is it like a dissociative experience? Ego death?

[Aion]

Yeah, I've had the eternal abyss type of experience, just, nothingness.

Is it like a dissociative experience? Ego death?

I guess that's one way to describe it, it's like an awareness that is only aware of the fact that it is aware.

[AnthroHeart]

Yeah, I've had the eternal abyss type of experience, just, nothingness.

Is it like a dissociative experience? Ego death?

I guess that's one way to describe it, it's like an awareness that is only aware of the fact that it is aware.

I wonder if that would be more satisfying than my normal, boring experience where I deal with significant catalyst. I feel I have no freedom. I am trapped.

[Aion]

Yeah, I've had the eternal abyss type of experience, just, nothingness.

Is it like a dissociative experience? Ego death?

I guess that's one way to describe it, it's like an awareness that is only aware of the fact that it is aware.

I wonder if that would be more satisfying than my normal, boring experience where I deal with significant catalyst. I feel I have no freedom. I am trapped.

There's not really any sense of satisfaction or anything. Just being there.

[Indigo Light]

I wonder if that would be more satisfying than my normal, boring experience where I deal with significant catalyst. I feel I have no freedom. I am trapped.


I understand how you feel, from the above statement. I also feel that my physical body is trapped. I have no freedom, and deal with sighnificant catalyst. I just know if I can find balance, and undistort myself some more. It will all be worth it. I am extremely tired. I believe its because of waning 3d energies, that a lot of us are exhausted. I truly love all of you other selfs. Let the love flow through you and accept all things as apart of you.

[AnthroHeart]

I wonder if that would be more satisfying than my normal, boring experience where I deal with significant catalyst. I feel I have no freedom. I am trapped.


I understand how you feel, from the above statement. I also feel that my physical body is trapped. I have no freedom, and deal with sighnificant catalyst. I just know if I can find balance, and undistort myself some more. It will all be worth it. I am extremely tired. I believe its because of waning 3d energies, that a lot of us are exhausted. I truly love all of you other selfs. Let the love flow through you and accept all things as apart of you.

I just don't want to be a Negative Nancy. I could probably tolerate more catalyst, but it would just be tolerating it.
I am tired too, though I get plenty of sleep. I worry about when I will have to go back to work.

[mjlabadia]

  Hi Everybody,
    I've been following the thread, as it applies in some ways to a difficulty I have in truly feeling Loving Kindness
towards situations where you would just like to slap someone. 

  I can go through the motions, and maintain self-control,.....but the "LOVE" feeling isn't always there.

  Then of course, there were the extreme situations that involve survival or harm, which Van and Minyatur were
referencing.  
 Perhaps that is were the "balance" issue is important. I think I remember many references to "Love balanced by Wisdom"
 in the Ra Material.  
  I think you all resolved that particular point of the thread.

 On another point however, I agree with Tan.rar........RANDOMNESS.

  I can't help but feel there is a certain level of randomness to all of this. Perhaps not every event we experience is 
a "tailor-made" catalyst, filled with great portent, or karmic inertia.

  There is one sentence in the Ra Material that I like so much, I use it as my signature. It's there to keep me mindful 
of the weighting I apply to events I experience.

 I don't know how to grab Ra material sections and post them here, so here's a brief accounting:

 Basically there was a sound on the tape recording which concerned Don and Jim. Don asks Ra if this sound was a 
"Greeting from a negative entity?" ...............
 ......to which Ra humorously replies,......"No,....rather it was a greeting from a malfunctioning electronic machine."

 I can't help but think it was Ra's attempt to say, "Take it easy, guys! Don't get too heavy on all of this."  

 Maybe there isn't always a metaphysical explanation for every detail. 

 Perhaps it is sometimes our relationship with an event, rather than the event itself which causes the suffering/joy,........learning/growing?

 This is not to say there aren't events that are of great portent, and rich in catalyst.

 But maybe sometimes, it really is just a broken tape deck.

 

  


  

[Aion]

I love that quote too, one of my favorites.

Also this one:

Free will does not mean that there will be no circumstances when calculations will be awry. This is so in all aspects of the life experience. Although there are no mistakes, there are surprises.

[Minyatur]

@mjlabadia

About malfunctionning electronics devices. I had a discussion about them with matrix_drumr (not about the Ra quote, just devices) and we were more pondering about it as 1D entity and their desires.

I do think a malfunctionning electronic device can actually be considered a 1D entity that desires to draw attention. A greeting like Ra said. Still not random in my view. 

There are a lot of cases where an electronic device making noises does get my attention. I either channel energy in it or place a crystal on it and it stops.

[mjlabadia]

I love that quote too, one of my favorites.

Also this one:

Free will does not mean that there will be no circumstances when calculations will be awry. This is so in all aspects of the life experience. Although there are no mistakes, there are surprises.

  Yes,......I remember you had that as your Sig.
 You know Tan, I pray I'm not terribly off track in the way I've come to apply the LOO to my life.

 I do still backslide in my "loving Kindness", and it bothers me so.

 Additionally I wonder about the power anger and resentment can have towards others.

 Last night , Michele was in an accident with our new truck. The thing is totaled. She is heartbroken.  

 All the day before the accident I had been very upset with her, at times to the point of true anger and
resentment.

 I now wonder if that horrible bit of backsliding anger on my part, may have contributed enough negative energy
to aid the crystallizing of the "accident potential"? 

Tan,...I hope not. I hope it was "just a broken tape deck".

[Aion]

I can't really say, but my advice is that if you are angry, let yourself be angry. I get the sense that such emotions are less dangerous if they are expressed honestly sooner rather than later.

[Stranger]

  Yes,......I remember you had that as your Sig.
 You know Tan, I pray I'm not terribly off track in the way I've come to apply the LOO to my life.

 I do still backslide in my "loving Kindness", and it bothers me so.

 Additionally I wonder about the power anger and resentment can have towards others.

 Last night , Michele was in an accident with our new truck. The thing is totaled. She is heartbroken.  

 All the day before the accident I had been very upset with her, at times to the point of true anger and
resentment.

 I now wonder if that horrible bit of backsliding anger on my part, may have contributed enough negative energy
to aid the crystallizing of the "accident potential"? 

Tan,...I hope not. I hope it was "just a broken tape deck".

mjlabadia, I think we all struggle with loving kindness - as long as we're continuing to do so in earnest, we're on the right track. Do you meditate?

Regarding the truck: I've noticed time and time and time again that when I "lose it" and end up in anger/resentment, it opens up all kinds of ugly doors for our STS friends to help me see the error of my ways. Things immediately begin to go badly. Accidents occur. Either myself or the people my anger is directed towards get hurt in weird ways.

To illustrate. I almost died once when I allowed some obnoxiously and offensively behaving kids to get a rise out of me on the train - I walked out onto the street and within the space of one city block a huge F150 truck made a left turn at full speed as I was crossing the street, and came to a sudden and complete halt lightly touching my side with its bumper. I am getting goosebumps just writing about this now. I made myself vulnerable by getting into an argument with those kids and creating total frustrated anger inside, and the beautiful entities I call my guides saved my life through an absolute miracle.

I was so shocked that I just stood there, dumbfounded, with the truck touching me, for some time. The driver of the truck was also dumbstruck.

An extreme but very illustrative example. Sorry about your truck. I've learned to see these sort of consequences of anger and resentment as very helpful catalyst.

[Stranger]

I can't really say, but my advice is that if you are angry, let yourself be angry. I get the sense that such emotions are less dangerous if they are expressed honestly sooner rather than later.

You certainly wouldn't want to repress it or pretend it's not there (i.e., denial).  Helpful solutions are 

1) to not go there in the first place.  Usually these feelings arise from perceived slights to our ego.  By learning to focus on the needs and suffering of the other person involved in an argument with us, for example, and seeking to resolve the conflict rather than nursing our injured ego/pride, the anger may never arise in the first place.  I'm slowly getting to that point.

2) If it's too late for that in a given situation, recognizing it and finding love in its place.  I sometimes follow the advice of (I don't remember if it was Ra or Quo) of intentionally exaggerating my wounded ego thoughts.  This helps me notice how ridiculous they are and "get over it" quickly, at which point I can remember how to love.

[VanAlioSaldo]

Since no one wants to actually discuss the OPor the topic, and I've been met with the typical, so what;leave, response.

I think I will.  Its pretty clear my answers are considered unimportant.  Another deal of indifference.  Its more than obvious I'm not making my issue clear enough youd all not be derailing my thread by going way off topic.  I can't describe this any clearer.

Then the usual judgment.

Thanks for the few times.  I think i do need to leave though.

Someone figures out this philosophy explains a complete lack of care for 3D beings, and all anyone says is its meant that way.

Never mind.

[Minyatur]

I don't think there is a lack of care, there isn't any one that can do something about it.  Suffering simply is. 


Your higher self isn't responsible for the suffering, he is the one who experienced it and moved beyond.

[Indigo Light]

I'm just going through a really rough patch with myself.

I can't seem to comprehend how Indifference and Unconditional Love are any different in action when viewed side by side, especially when dealing with indifference.

I see it as.  In indifference you may sometimes act the same way as if you were providing unconditional love.

Someone attacks, with indifference or love as a response, does one not basically allow ones self to be attacked?
But is it still the fault of the attacked for letting the attacker attack?

Or.  My biggest issue is just plain indifference.  I'm having a hard time loving its infinite ways of letting people do whatever they want to me...

I understand how you feel. There is a huge difference between indifference and unconditional love. indifference is a lack of understanding, and no care for what happens. Unconditional love is awareness that the being attacking you, is you, and you know they don't understand it. So you still love them, its not about the physical result looking the same sometimes, in given situations. Its about the deeper understanding, and acceptance of these other-selves. The universe is more about intent then, what we as humans think of as results. You ever intended to help someone out, and the "results" didn't turn out well? Well the intention is what was important. If you look at indifference and unconditional love, there are huge discrepancies in the intentions department.

[Lighthead]

Since no one wants to actually discuss the OPor the topic, and I've been met with the typical, so what;leave, response.

I think I will.  Its pretty clear my answers are considered unimportant.  Another deal of indifference.  Its more than obvious I'm not making my issue clear enough youd all not be derailing my thread by going way off topic.  I can't describe this any clearer.

Then the usual judgment.

Thanks for the few times.  I think i do need to leave though.

Someone figures out this philosophy explains a complete lack of care for 3D beings, and all anyone says is its meant that way.

Never mind.

Just some constructive criticism if you decide to come back. Your OP was a million miles long. I honestly didn't read all of it. If it's a topic that I find really juicy, I might have the patience to read something as long as that. I realize that what you wrote was something personal so it may have been hard to cut the subject down to its bare elements, but just less is what I have to say. Just put it down... to a lot less. That's what was hard for me personally to relate to and to add so much to. It might sound like another cruel blow from this cruel world, but that's the unfiltered truth from my end. Just take it or leave it.

Edit: My bad. I was probably getting confused with another one of your threads.

[Aion]

Since no one wants to actually discuss the OPor the topic, and I've been met with the typical, so what;leave, response.

I think I will.  Its pretty clear my answers are considered unimportant.  Another deal of indifference.  Its more than obvious I'm not making my issue clear enough youd all not be derailing my thread by going way off topic.  I can't describe this any clearer.

Then the usual judgment.

Thanks for the few times.  I think i do need to leave though.

Someone figures out this philosophy explains a complete lack of care for 3D beings, and all anyone says is its meant that way.

Never mind.

I hope you don't go, I don't actually want you to leave, I just wanted to point out the extremity of your thoughts. I'll be honest, it bothers me too, a lot, every day. Seeing the suffering in the world is something that makes my body ache every day. I am more and more inclined to believe as time goes on that there has been a malicious force which has had its hand in disconnecting humans from our divine origins.

[Aion]

Aaagghhh, I had written an enourmous post expressing Ra's explanation for the intense conditions of third density due to the fact that the veil was introduced.

Sigh... basically, at one point it was determined that entities were not polarizing because the conditions of third-density were still so full of the awareness of the Creator that there was no incentive to move in to higher densities. The veil was an experiment created by Logoi to intensify catalyst in third-density so that it would be more likely for entities to polarize, to choose a polarity because that is the purpose of third density.

From there, it is basically expressed that through the free will of entities polarizing there have been multiple eras and periods in time where positive, Law of One principles were introduced and these were twisted and turned in to self-serving philosophies which were then used to form an elite. This elite is said to be at the top of the world, the individuals who control the planet through their knowledge of and selfish use of the Law of One.

Thus, because this Logos chose to allow entities to have complete free will, in the distant past there were entities that became interested in forming an elite which would dominate and control the other entities whom they deemed incapable of greater things. Hence, it seems to be explained that we are now in a system that has been intentionally set up to confound us and turn us to negativity wherever possible. This is so they can add to their own polarity and become more powerful and why it is really so challenging to be positive. That is why I believe that everything that speaks of positivity comes back to love sharing with others and connecting ourselves together because it is through that that separation will eventually be dissolved.

They also express that because of the nature of the veil, it will be much harder to see positive aspects of catalyst and experience rather than negative which will seem to be in abundance.

I guess in the eyes of the Ra cosmology in the face of all this intense catalyst one is challenged with how they will turn their experiences one way or the other. I think it's difficult though because it's not always clear which way we are turning.

I feel physical pain every day because of the suffering that people endure. I can feel the heart ache, I can feel the planet crying for its children. There is something that isn't right, and no amount of "it's supposed to be this way" can seem to unsettle the fact that I feel that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way everything is set up.

[Lighthead]

@Tan

Do you think that the veil was less intense, say, millions or billions of years ago? And do you think that it was easier to polarize positively that long ago? And if it was easier, do you think that the percentages for polarizing positively and negatively were different because sub-logoi were inherently more positive (maybe like 71% for STO and 25% for STS, for example)? Just some random questions I thought about while reading your post.

[Aion]

I actually think it was probably harder at first because they were still experimenting with the veil conditions. According to Ra, positive harvests are in general more common because it is very difficult for a planet to stay cohesively together enough to polarize negatively while becoming a social memory complex. Apparently negative social memory complexes often dissolve because of high entropy rates.

[Lighthead]

I actually think it was probably harder at first because they were still experimenting with the veil conditions. According to Ra, positive harvests are in general more common because it is very difficult for a planet to stay cohesively together enough to polarize negatively while becoming a social memory complex. Apparently negative social memory complexes often dissolve because of high entropy rates.

I don't want to get accused of derailing the thread, but I have another question. I created a thread about this, but do you think that the Logoi are trending towards a thicker veil or what do you think the Logoi have in the works? Use your spidey-sense if you have to. 

[Aion]

I actually think it was probably harder at first because they were still experimenting with the veil conditions. According to Ra, positive harvests are in general more common because it is very difficult for a planet to stay cohesively together enough to polarize negatively while becoming a social memory complex. Apparently negative social memory complexes often dissolve because of high entropy rates.

I don't want to get accused of derailing the thread, but I have another question. I created a thread about this, but do you think that the Logoi are trending towards a thicker veil or what do you think the Logoi have in the works? Use your spidey-sense if you have to. 

Thicker? No, I think if anything it will move towards a thinner veil because ultimately the idea would be to have polarization occur without the veil. I believe the end-game is to no longer need to use the veil to intensify catalyst but rather the 'net' level of consciousness will be so interwoven between all the densities that the pull of each polarity will become stronger and stronger so that innately entities will be aware when they come to third-density that the purpose is to choose to graduate.

I see it that the Galaxy is a finite construction and so the work is to get all the entities to again be in unity after they have been separated by polarity. This effectively enables the Galactic Logos enough polarity in order to reunify itself with the Creator as a whole and this Creation will coalesce once again in to the Creator to begin anew.

[Lighthead]

I actually think it was probably harder at first because they were still experimenting with the veil conditions. According to Ra, positive harvests are in general more common because it is very difficult for a planet to stay cohesively together enough to polarize negatively while becoming a social memory complex. Apparently negative social memory complexes often dissolve because of high entropy rates.

I don't want to get accused of derailing the thread, but I have another question. I created a thread about this, but do you think that the Logoi are trending towards a thicker veil or what do you think the Logoi have in the works? Use your spidey-sense if you have to. 

Thicker? No, I think if anything it will move towards a thinner veil because ultimately the idea would be to have polarization occur without the veil. I believe the end-game is to no longer need to use the veil to intensify catalyst but rather the 'net' level of consciousness will be so interwoven between all the densities that the pull of each polarity will become stronger and stronger so that innately entities will be aware when they come to third-density that the purpose is to choose to graduate.

I see it that the Galaxy is a finite construction and so the work is to get all the entities to again be in unity after they have been separated by polarity. This effectively enables the Galactic Logos enough polarity in order to reunify itself with the Creator as a whole and this Creation will coalesce once again in to the Creator to begin anew.

Wow, fascinating assumption. Definitely looking forward to see what happens.

[Aion]

I basically see it that polarity is the usage of the intelligent energy potential that went in to the creation of the galaxy. The purpose of the galaxy is to make kinetic the potentials of intelligent infinity. Thus polarity and polarization is a system created to generate this energy. I believe that the end of the Galaxy is basically when output = input, when the amount of polarity that has been generated and then discharged is equal to the energy that went in to the Creation of the Galaxy. This will create an equilibrium and thus all will be drawn back in to the absolute infinite potential core that is intelligent infinity.

[Lighthead]

I basically see it that polarity is the usage of the intelligent energy potential that went in to the creation of the galaxy. The purpose of the galaxy is to make kinetic the potentials of intelligent infinity. Thus polarity and polarization is a system created to generate this energy. I believe that the end of the Galaxy is basically when output = input, when the amount of polarity that has been generated and then discharged is equal to the energy that went in to the Creation of the Galaxy. This will create an equilibrium and thus all will be drawn back in to the absolute infinite potential core that is intelligent infinity.

Do you think that each octave is about the establishment of some kind of "duality" and the then, transcendence of it into the next octave?

[BlatzAdict]

I'm just going through a really rough patch with myself.

I can't seem to comprehend how Indifference and Unconditional Love are any different in action when viewed side by side, especially when dealing with indifference.

I see it as.  In indifference you may sometimes act the same way as if you were providing unconditional love.

Someone attacks, with indifference or love as a response, does one not basically allow ones self to be attacked?
But is it still the fault of the attacked for letting the attacker attack?

Or.  My biggest issue is just plain indifference.  I'm having a hard time loving its infinite ways of letting people do whatever they want to me...

i don't believe unconditional love lets other people do whatever the hell they want to you
otherwise it's not unconditional love because you are not unconditionally loving yourself

once you start to finally unconditionally love your self including others it is then possible to start the formation of healthy boundaries. Within the heart of self you know what is good for you and what you want, but you do not necessarily know what is good for others. However it is important to know if what others are seeking is a detriment or a positive addition to your being. If this is not the case, then you must understand these people come into your life because they are putting the same vibration of energy into their choices and actions as you are. Ultimately it is spirit trying to show you the quality of the energy you put out.

[VanAlioSaldo]

So leave then. Do you want sympathy for your suffering? Empathy? To be told that you're right and everything is wrong and we're all f***** and there is no hope? Want me to feed your nihilism a little bit?

A. What do you think?  I'm honestly asking.

I hope you don't go, I don't actually want you to leave, I just wanted to point out the extremity of your thoughts. I'll be honest, it bothers me too, a lot, every day. Seeing the suffering in the world is something that makes my body ache every day. I am more and more inclined to believe as time goes on that there has been a malicious force which has had its hand in disconnecting humans from our divine origins.

B. Please tell me exactly how you derived, I hope you don't go, as, So leave then.

And then consider this food for thought.

1) Respect. Compassion. Loving-kindness. Empathy. Trust. Goodwill. Desire to serve. Embracing each other. Opening our heart. Participants are asked to keep the thought in the forefront of their minds at all times that each on this forum IS the Creator. Please keep communication respectful at all times and in all ways. The participant may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea. Please remember that we are all here to expand our knowledge, deepen our understanding, and support one another by reflecting our divinity to each other. We are One being -- we are not here to forget the real.

Now to A, and B.

You tell me.

Just some constructive criticism if you decide to come back. Your OP was a million miles long. I honestly didn't read all of it. If it's a topic that I find really juicy, I might have the patience to read something as long as that. I realize that what you wrote was something personal so it may have been hard to cut the subject down to its bare elements, but just less is what I have to say. Just put it down... to a lot less. That's what was hard for me personally to relate to and to add so much to. It might sound like another cruel blow from this cruel world, but that's the unfiltered truth from my end. Just take it or leave it.

Edit: My bad. I was probably getting confused with another one of your threads.

I can actually take constructive criticism, so this is well.

But between your overall attitude, I'm going to provide my own bit of take it or leave it.
You've got a serious issue with applying the correct tone in your posts, unless sarcasm and hypocrisy wasn't your intended tone.  Oh, I'm sorry, just a 'cruel unfiltered' bit of honesty my friend.  How does it feel?  Because honestly, and I'm seriously apologizing for saying that, but honestly if you think trying to be 'unfiltered' is the same as honest, I just want to tell you two things.

Honestly consider talking to and listening to yourself.  You might be surprised in a bad way.
And secondly, honestly, in my opinion, which I, honestly, know you don't care about, it's, honestly, exactly that.  That, I think you don't care.  So, regardless, since I only want to get this thread finished up and explain this issue to you all in a manner you'll understand...  Since I do think it's something you all should be made aware of...  I'm going to explain.  But between everyone's attitude here...  I'm getting real tired of it, and I will just leave.  And honestly, it seems like this forum needs a more active member in it, cause this place isn't looking too active anymore...

So try not to push people out of it???

And sorry Lighthead, but both you and Tanner need to be a bit more considerate overall.  And Light, all I meant by my comments was you come off highly indifferent towards others, and you're kind of a jerk.  I know you don't care, but sometimes you need to be told regardless of if you don't care or not.  That's what I'm discovering from living in an Indifferent Universe.

So let me list it out for you in a list of contextual quotes of my own posts, I'll cut it down and edit for context, but the point will be at the bottom, the huuuuge sum up, with all the meat being listed below.

Because I'm pretty annoyed.  Not at anyone here but at the Infinite Creator.  Because I'm more than sure I'm living inside a well packaged and fancified Hell now.  Let me explain why.

Preface or tl;dr;;StartHere
There is an Octave, Layers 1 through 3 can all experience each other, Layers 4-8 do not need to show themselves to the lower layers.
Layers 1 and 2 are basically, with a few exceptions, all not self-aware but becoming.
By Layer 3 Self-Awareness is present.
Layers 4-6 integrate into the lower layers in the form of reincarnation, in order to learn.

By making the Self Aware Layer 3 Entity suffer through catalyst in order to learn a lesson.

0. It is literally only from 3D that this perspective can be met it seems, all others seem to truly just accept it as is.  Which I don't know if I should believe it is actually out of Love, or if I am truly in a Hell Universe where they package such as Heaven.  The inherent trick on us is that Indifference and Love look exactly the same from the 3D perspective.

1. all of this [Level of Existence] is almost a fanciful packaged lie from this perspective, while up there it's all fun and games and laughs.  But down here, real horror and suffering.

2. Because there is no way this density is the density of desire.  A gross ignorance of Human Perspective is blatantly obvious, right down to Journey of Souls excerpt where a soul even describes an infant struggling but eventually giving in to its appearance [to integrate and trace its neural pathways to merger with].

3. The inherent horror that lies in the reality of the System the Ra Material lays out is all right here in 3D, and hinted to continue with 4D and 5D [somewhat it'd seem], but at 2D you're already beginning to partake in the methodical system of teaching you suffering...  The whole picture is literally suffering, purposeful suffering.  Desired, wanted, suffering.

4. To learn how to love...?  I can think of much more efficient better methods overall as I am right now, Human-wise.  Even a slight slip in the Veil for everyone, a dream once in a while, an odd unexplainable occurrence, but clear, and direct, not spiritual, but personal.  Instead, nothing.  Dreams that we can't make sense of.  Catalyst we have no knowledge of.  Horrible things, being planned out.  I once read an NDE about a soul that coaxed her human self to fall off a moving carriage to cripple herself, as planned.

5. Most of such NDE's too that talk about future knowledge from the soul perspective is, blatantly ignorant of the experiences being done to the human shell.

6. the universe inflicts suffering on an entire level of existence without any actual consent from that actual level of existence from the standpoint of...That level of existence's Inhabitants, like, Human's who are aware, of this picture, who see something veiled very fancifully, but when you look under the cover it's got a bit of a secret everyone is kind of hush-hush or blatantly acts as if it's no big deal about.  That is torturing Human Beings for their own selfish goals of evolution.  That isn't Unconditionally Loving, or consonant of Free Will.  It isn't even remotely Loving, it is by essence the most Selfish thing one can do, is parasitically utilize another to gain at their loss. (The fact the soul experiences it alongside the human shell as One is not the point here, the fact the Human Shell had no say, and is even considered a Shell at all, and not instead seen as a full self-aware identity that can make its own decisions is, as well as the fact that because the soul merges with the human, and the catalyst is meant for the soul, it is literally only harming the human who has this one run and then their life is done.)

7.  it's all irrelevant until someone can explain why I should cooperate with my 'higher desires' when they have no actual love or care for what they are doing to me!?

8. It is no different from looking at God puncturing Oneself with Love in a crippling way, in order that when he dies, he'll be better not realizing that the Human had dreams.  A Life and Goals.  Desires of its own, that didn't seem to align with the Souls, resulting in punishment.  I mean.  Catalyst...

Intermission.  Just to make it longer... And you know what, I honestly feel like that guy in that Stephen King movie 1408, who is trapped inside Hell, but is outside, but still inside Hell.  I am here.  I can't leave.  I will be tortured.  I will be in pain.  I will suffer.  My dreams do not matter.  My desires are pointless.  MY wants are ignored.  I'm here to suffer, not to learn to love.  That comes after.  Those with the will to pull themselves out of the horror and learn along the way to accelerate their speedy escape out of Hell have extra punishment dished at them and if they fail, they are indifferently treated.  Those who love get surprises and suddenly, here's Hell!  But we're all souls in a relatively locked location in Time/Space (Sounds like room 1408...) and we are here in Space/time being tormented.

9. But if someone opts out, I think that should be a valid means of incarnation ending, not just, oh you gave up, I don't care if it's hell, go back or else you can't move forward.  Unconditionally Loving?  For Evolution? (And Free Will Abiding...?)

10. Have a story to give you more perspective, or allow me to shed some of my perspective upon yours.
A person walks into a life.  They get punched in the face and then are told they choose for this all to happen, and that its their fault, this, for getting punched.  Person shrugs it off being a cool open person.  Sits at a bar and the stool collapses, lifetender comes over and says its their fault, their responsibility, they need to pay for it, or else.  Person pays for the stool with whatever they had intended to use to buy something else.  Person has nothing left to pay with and so opts for a different life, on the way out gets told because they didn't do specific things they'll need to come back to eventually do things a better way, and that if they don't they'll have to pay for it somehow someway somewhere else.  Person says this wasn't what they wanted, gets told it was and that that isn't an excuse to not be the preferred way you choose to have occur regardless of if you're as another person who knows nothing.

11. Does consenting, then becoming amnesiac but still bound by this Life Contract not identified as infringing the free will of the 3D being when they become aware of how things operate without memory of such?  When the person no longer consents, why isn't it considered in the whole of things?  Their suffering is used to learn, what happens when the being no longer consents on a 3D level regardless of what the soul wants?  Why is there indifference towards these views??

12. This universe makes 3D beings suffer. It goes at them with Love that is closer known as indifference on the third density.  It brings them catalyst that sometimes are excessive it'd seem. So much so many do not finish several incarnations but are told they'll NEED to regardless.  That is not choice, nor free will. That is the Creator forcing a part of itself to do without regard for the free will of the unknowing being, who can identify as wholly separate.

13. Its designed to occur out this way.  Why is being abused needed to grow? What being would actually consent to this, while down here, going through it?
I know many will, but many won't. Why are they called excuse makers and ignored?

14. If the future was based on the original premise like it acts like it is, that free will is actually present, then this issue for 3D wouldn't be here now.  If you try to rectify 3D from a higher perspective, you ignore 3D in the process.  I'm talking about 3D BEINGS, every single self aware entity that is currently sure it is an individual here, with its own consent separate a soul identity because they can do such.  (Because that is the nature of all living things, is it not?  A Human Being is as Sacred as a Soul, so why is their Free Will ignored for a Soul's?)

15. Do you consent to a surprise?  Even if that surprise is getting raped then killed by another?  Then to try and over and over, tell me [or them], I chose this suffering, I'm responsible for it.  But call my issues of these surprises and such, EXCUSES?  3D does not maintain Free Will.  You guys are using higher perspectives and overall views, ignoring, literally my point, [that] 3D perspective in the current occurrence [has it's Free Will ignored].  When a person wants to give up, why are they forced by the Universe[...]it seems one MUST complete, and MUST do things to progress, what happens if that impedes with the free will of the [3D] entity?  What happens when so many 3D entities all commit suicide, but they come to, just to be told they must do it all over again? [Without a Choice, meaning even the Soul's Free Will is ignored in the higher dimensions!]

16. Ra says there are surprises.  Do you consent to surprises in the mysterious unknown before you reincarnate?  Do you as a soul give the universe complete consent?  More importantly, how does that override your 3D personality's consent?  I thought Free Will was absolute (Primal Distortion).  I see that 3D Free Will is utterly and completely ignored.  I can't in good faith of an Unconditionally Loving Free Will operating universe, say Third Density, or perhaps this entire octave if the Higher Self forces you to take upon certain paths that are 'as is'...is made of unconditional love, or has free will.

No, 3D is closer to Indifference.  Complete indifference towards the Human being.  What human being wants to be born just to be put through hell to help a soul evolve?  Does it get a choice?  When the soul joins the Human Being, did the human know and consent?  Or is the Soul and the whole Universe using 3D?

Did Humanity get a say?  Why do I notice this endless notion of 'you wanted this' but while you're here, you actually don't want this but you 'want this'.  As a Human being, a self aware humanoid entity, who was joined by a soul in the womb.  Did I. I, the HUMAN.  Consent?  If not, then your Free Will First Distortion has failed me.

The Point
There is the Time/Space Higher Soul, then the Space/Time Self-Aware Human Identity.  Both should have Free Will being Self-Aware.  Only one Free Will is adhered, the other is infringed.

Reincarnation in itself isn't bad, unless only with a soul attached to a Human does the Human experience increasing levels of catalyst that inflict punishment.
The soul being attached also experiences the catalyst, which is meant for it, but it chose to experience it.
So Did the Human consent to the Soul using it, and experiencing through it?  To suffer and be punished for not being aware of it?

Did the Human Consent to being used by a Soul?

And for the Finale:  I'm not literally saying this whole Octave is hell (even though the apparent indifference makes it feel like it to me personally), this level is literally describable as Hell in areas.  Case and Point.  The Holocaust.  And to Rest my Case.  The word Holocaust means Great Burning Sacrifice to God.

[VanAlioSaldo]

I'm just going through a really rough patch with myself.

I can't seem to comprehend how Indifference and Unconditional Love are any different in action when viewed side by side, especially when dealing with indifference.

I see it as.  In indifference you may sometimes act the same way as if you were providing unconditional love.

Someone attacks, with indifference or love as a response, does one not basically allow ones self to be attacked?
But is it still the fault of the attacked for letting the attacker attack?

Or.  My biggest issue is just plain indifference.  I'm having a hard time loving its infinite ways of letting people do whatever they want to me...

i don't believe unconditional love lets other people do whatever the hell they want to you
otherwise it's not unconditional love because you are not unconditionally loving yourself

once you start to finally unconditionally love your self including others it is then possible to start the formation of healthy boundaries. Within the heart of self you know what is good for you and what you want, but you do not necessarily know what is good for others. However it is important to know if what others are seeking is a detriment or a positive addition to your being. If this is not the case, then you must understand these people come into your life because they are putting the same vibration of energy into their choices and actions as you are. Ultimately it is spirit trying to show you the quality of the energy you put out.

Thank you. This is the Law of Attraction essentially.

But the major Point I'm trying to elaborate at, is that the Spirit programs Catalyst, then joins a Human which will experience that Catalyst.

Did the Human ever have a choice or is the Human forced to merger with souls and go through Catalyst?

[isis]

Honestly consider talking to and listening to yourself.  You might be surprised in a bad way.

lol