Book IV Study Group

[βαθμιαίος]

There are male and female archetypes (Catalyst, Significator, Great Way) in the spirit, just not as many as in the mind and body. Some of the body archetypes (Catalyst, Transformation) are also not male and female.

Polarity in the spirit complex has to do with light and dark more than it does with male and female. It's all about radiance vs absorption, after all.

[unity100]

then again, maybe light and dark themselves have to do with male and female ...

[3D Sunset]

im thinking, and saying that, it is impossible for there to be a kind of relation in between polarities and archetypes of body, mind, and then everything go totally irrelevant in the spirit. mind, is the channel of the spirit, and body is the product of mind. that means, there is continuation.

As you wish. I, for one, do not see the correlation and am ready to move on.

Here's a question I've been wondering about. Ra says that the standing archetypes I and IX are unmoving and the seated archetypes II and VIII are associated with motion. Doesn't that seem backwards? Wouldn't it be easier to move if you're standing than if you're seated?

A very interesting insight. Perhaps it is representative of the struggle that Don and Ra discuss here:

Questioner: Then was this a representation of the waiting polarity to be tasted by the Matrix of the Mind?

Ra: I am Ra. This is exquisitely perceptive.

Questioner: I have listed here the sword as representing struggle. I am not sure that I even can call anything in this diagram a sword. Would Ra comment on that?

Ra: I am Ra. Doubt not the struggle, O student, but release the sword from its stricture. Observe the struggle of a caged bird to fly.

Is the unmoving Magician struggling to taste the polarity that is enabled only by the moving, but seated, High Priestess?

I also noticed that most, but not all of the female archetypes are seated, and the male archetypes are standing. So is it also perhaps just another way of depicting the gender qualities?

Just throwing out some ideas.

3D Sunset

[unity100]

im thinking, and saying that, it is impossible for there to be a kind of relation in between polarities and archetypes of body, mind, and then everything go totally irrelevant in the spirit. mind, is the channel of the spirit, and body is the product of mind. that means, there is continuation.

As you wish. I, for one, do not see the correlation and am ready to move on.

i cant, since i have to dig this until i get to the bottom of it.

it is impossible for the manifestation of existence to be built in dual systems, and yet the origin of the manifestation not have that duality in itself.

I also noticed that most, but not all of the female archetypes are seated, and the male archetypes are standing. So is it also perhaps just another way of depicting the gender qualities?

immobile, potential, but waiting to be moved.

[βαθμιαίος]

Is the unmoving Magician struggling to taste the polarity that is enabled only by the moving, but seated, High Priestess?

Thanks, 3D, for picking up on my question. I'm not sure if it's the Magician that's struggling or if it's the bird. I guess the Magician is reaching towards the box, which implies effort, but I'm not sure it's a struggle for him as much as it is for the poor bird, stuck in the box.

But even reaching would seem to be a movement, wouldn't it? So why does Ra say he's unmoving? Unless, I guess, he's frozen forever at the moment of reaching.

I also noticed that most, but not all of the female archetypes are seated, and the male archetypes are standing. So is it also perhaps just another way of depicting the gender qualities?

I doubt it, but who knows? Ra seems to consider the images highly accurate, refined over many generations, so it seems likely to me that each position has a meaning.

Just throwing out some ideas.

Thanks. Keep 'em coming!

[3D Sunset]

Is the unmoving Magician struggling to taste the polarity that is enabled only by the moving, but seated, High Priestess?

Thanks, 3D, for picking up on my question. I'm not sure if it's the Magician that's struggling or if it's the bird. I guess the Magician is reaching towards the box, which implies effort, but I'm not sure it's a struggle for him as much as it is for the poor bird, stuck in the box.

But even reaching would seem to be a movement, wouldn't it? So why does Ra say he's unmoving? Unless, I guess, he's frozen forever at the moment of reaching.

Here's another related quote. Perhaps "struggle" was the the wrong word. In the quote below, Ra discusses the dynamic, even sexual, "tension" between the Magician and the High Priestess.

Questioner: There seems to be a book on the Priestess’s lap which is half hidden by a robe or material that covers her right shoulder. It would seem that this indicates that knowledge is available if the veil is lifted but is not only hidden by the veil but is hidden partially by her very garment which she must somehow remove to become aware of the knowledge which she has available. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. In that the conceit of the volume was not originated by Ra we ask that you release the volume from its strictured form. Your perceptions are quite correct.

The very nature of the feminine principle of mind which, in Ra’s suggestion, was related specifically to what may be termed sanctified sexuality is, itself, without addition, the book which neither the feminine nor the male principle may use until the male principle has reached and penetrated, in a symbolically sexual fashion, the inner secrets of this feminine principle.

All robes, in this case indicating the outer garments of custom, shield these principles. Thusly there is great dynamic tension, if you will, betwixt the Matrix and the Potentiator of the Mind.

So again, perhaps their standing or seated positions are further indications of their inherent gender qualities. Regardless, it is interesting that on the one hand Ra says that the Magician is, of itself unmoved, and shortly thereafter, says that the Magician must "reach and penetrate", two very motile words. Did Ra really mean that "reaching" and "penetrating" are not movement? Note that Ra said that the Magician (consciousness) is not, of itself, moved. This means to me that it is moved, but only through its interaction with the High Priestess. That is to say that with potentiation, the Magician would not move.

Does this interpretation help resolve the paradox?

3D Sunset

[unity100]

high priestess causes the magician to move, just like how female makes the male act, move, in life. just like how female causes the male to gain purpose.

[βαθμιαίος]

So again, perhaps their standing or seated positions are further indications of their inherent gender qualities.

I'm still not really buying the idea that standing = male and seated = female, given that there are standing females and seated males among the archetypes. I think there must be some other resonance or implication, but I'm not sure what.

Note that Ra said that the Magician (consciousness) is not, of itself, moved. This means to me that it is moved, but only through its interaction with the High Priestess. That is to say that with potentiation, the Magician would not move.

Does this interpretation help resolve the paradox?

You mean "without potentiation," right, where you wrote "with potentiation"? I think it makes sense. However, I'm not sure that it resolves the paradox, in my mind at least, of why he's standing and she's sitting.

Here's a quote that seems relevant that I've never totally grasped:

92.18 ...the portion of the infant which may be articulated by the Matrix of the Mind is indeed unfed by experience and has the bias of reaching for this experience through free will just as intelligent energy in the kinetic phase, through free will, creates the Logos. These sub-sub-Logoi, then, or those portions of the mind/body/spirit complex which may be articulated by consideration of the Potentiators of Mind and Body, through free will, choose to make alterations in their experiential continuum. The results of these experiments in novelty are then recorded in the portion of the mind and body articulated by the Matrices thereof.

It says the Potentiators choose to make alterations in their experiential continuum. If the Matrix is the one reaching, isn't he the one choosing to make alterations? And why are the results recorded in the Matrices? Wouldn't the results be recorded in the Significators?

[3D Sunset]

I'm still not really buying the idea that standing = male and seated = female, given that there are standing females and seated males among the archetypes. I think there must be some other resonance or implication, but I'm not sure what.

Perhaps it is the smaller subset of cards on which the male is seated or the female is standing that should attract your attention. Then again, perhaps I'm totally off base, but it feels right to me.

You mean "without potentiation," right, where you wrote "with potentiation"?

Yes, thank you for the correction.

It says the Potentiators choose to make alterations in their experiential continuum. If the Matrix is the one reaching, isn't he the one choosing to make alterations? And why are the results recorded in the Matrices? Wouldn't the results be recorded in the Significators?

I had an interesting dream about a year ago, that gave me an insight into this enigma. I described the dream in post #9 of the Tread Considerations of s/t and t/s, and there were many aspects to it, but the one pertinent to this topic was that I had been thinking about how experience happens with respect to the archetypes backward. In my dream I came to realize that experience occurs in the process of mapping t/s into s/t. The pertinent quote from my post was:

I believe that this order of mapping applies directly to the archetypes that Ra discusses in Book IV. I see now how Arcanum IV- the Experience of the mind, feeds this biased interpretation of an experience to Arcanum III - the Catalyst of the Mind, which evaluates its catalytic properties and delivers them to Arcanum II - the Potentiator of the Mind, who prepares Arcanum I - the Matrix of the Mind, to store the biased interpretation of the experience in the matrix of the mind. I realize now that I had been looking at the process backward, as I had previously thought that these happened in the opposite order (i.e., the matrix stored a raw event, which was evaluated for potentiation value, and then was handed to the catalyst for reaction which became the experience).

To more fully answer your question then, given the above interpretation, it would seem that the Significator of the mind deems those experiences (catalysts) as significant and offers them to the Experience for further processing. Note that the ultimate bias gleaned from an experience (positive or negative) has yet to be determined when it is passed on by the Significantor.

[Edit 2:40 pm] Sorry, I just realized that I hadn't addressed all of your question. My interpretation of the other aspect to your question (i.e., Isn't the Magician the one choosing to make alterations?) is this: The Magician choose to reach to experience and then stores what is provided back from the Potentiator. This then begs the question of how is Magician performing magic? To me, the Magician is the switch that creates the circuit of experience. Without the reaching, there would be no experience, and hence no circuit and no magic.

Of course, I could have just been dreaming, but it made sense at the time, and does still. At least to me.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[βαθμιαίος]

Perhaps it is the smaller subset of cards on which the male is seated or the female is standing that should attract your attention. Then again, perhaps I'm totally off base, but it feels right to me.

Could you elaborate on why you associate standing with male energy and sitting with female? That might help me "get it."

It might also be interesting to list the correspondences that we can think of having to do with standing and sitting. I think of sitting as the more powerful position. The king sits while his courtiers stand. Any other resonances come to mind?

I had been thinking about how experience happens with respect to the archetypes backward.

Very interesting. I guess I've been doing the same thing. Can we take it further and start with the Great Way? Ra says that "[t]he Great Way of Mind, Body, or Spirit is intended to limn the milieu within which the work of mind, body, or spirit shall be placed." Does that mean it provides the overview and then we can work backwards from there?

This then begs the question of how is Magician performing magic? To me, the Magician is the switch that creates the circuit of experience. Without the reaching, there would be no experience, and hence no circuit and no magic.

Makes sense.

[unity100]

A dream i saw long ago made me understand the matrix of the spirit and potentiator of the spirit, and how they relate to male and female. i realized this around 1.5 days ago.

Dream starts. it is time/space, evident. the backdrop is dark. (time/space dark) i stand right there, as if waiting for 'dream' to start. i seem to be clothed in white, 'spacely' feeling overalls. i am looking towards ahead, but i also am seeing me from outside, behind my back. there is a blonde female entity to the right of me. she seems to be clothed in a spacely looking white one piece. she is shorter than me a bit. we look like 'ordinary' spacely aliens. her hair is tied from below, in a pigtail. she leans to my right shoulder and kisses me on the right cheek, then walks towards the direction im looking, a few paces away. its not too distant, but not too near.

there, he first corresponds, interacts or maybe kisses a male entity (blurry and irrelevant to me) on her left, gives her a hand. then, she turns to her right (her back is towards me during these) and interacts with another male entity to her right. during these, something personal happens, which is irrelevant to the subject at hand, and i am not going to tell. however, after these, she turns towards me, the male on (now her right, still my left) the left, holding her right hand on top of his palm, and the male now on her left (still my right) holding her right hand on his right palm. she doesnt look like an ordinary 'spacely' alien anymore, but she looks like a goddess/queen, a huge tiara that encompasses all her head, hair and shoulders, and extending way down below to her feet, actually her whole body manifestation seems like tiara-like ornaments extending out from her. the tiara/ornaments seem white light, and the space that defines the ornaments seem dark (like time/space darkness). she starts walking towards me, her right hand being held by the entity on her right, and her left on her left, for part of the way, and then letting go of her. and as she approaches me her tiara like ornaments seem to extend even further than her body.

i feel like i am flowing from within those ornament-like pathways, tiara, from within her. i feel that i am the light that extends outwards towards those tiara/ornaments as they extend outwards from her. and the shape of those ornaments, extending out, is her. ornaments extend further as she approaches me. she is the shape, and i am flowing within that shape. as she comes near me, dream ends.

so, 1.5 days ago i realized that this dream was more than what i suspected it, and it helped me realize how the matrix of spirit, and potentiator of the spirit are. and, conclude finally that matrix of the spirit is indeed female, and potentiator of the spirit is male.

matrix of the spirit is female, it is dark. it has shape, but lacks potential. potentiator of the spirit is male, it is light like lightning. bright. it is stale, unmoved. it doesnt happen without matrix of the spirit. the potentiator is given shape by the matrix, its movement is defined and enabled by the matrix.

[3D Sunset]

Could you elaborate on why you associate standing with male energy and sitting with female? That might help me "get it."

It relates to the "mover/moved" discussion. The nature of female energy is to be passive and waiting, that of male to be active and reaching. For what it's worth, it seems to me the female is the "mover", the male is the "moved". This may be the opposite of other people's perceptions.

Ra:...In a more general sense, that which reaches may be seen as a male principle. That which awaits the reaching may be seen as a female principle. The richness of the male and female system of polarity is interesting and we would not comment further but suggest consideration by the student.

I think of sitting as the more powerful position. The king sits while his courtiers stand. Any other resonances come to mind?

This is, I think, a very perceptive observation, and follows also the mover/moved and male/female discussion earlier. Who is in the more powerful position, the mover or the moved? Who has more "power" in a relationship, the pursuer or the pursued?

Very interesting. I guess I've been doing the same thing. Can we take it further and start with the Great Way? Ra says that "[t]he Great Way of Mind, Body, or Spirit is intended to limn the milieu within which the work of mind, body, or spirit shall be placed." Does that mean it provides the overview and then we can work backwards from there?

An interesting question, perhaps yes... I only came away from my dream with the sense of how the Experience flowed down to the Matrix. It didn't occur to me to look further to the Significator until you asked your questions. Although I have read Ra's discussion of the Transformation and the Great Way, I have not studied them nearly as much introspectively as I have the first five.

That said, let's try it. I'm going to free associate some ideas that occur to me as I try to work this through. Much of it may, as Ra says "Make little of sense."

Following the earlier line of thinking then, it would seem to me that the Great Way is moving through the garden of available environments for experience and picking those that may be "fruitful" for further evolution of the m/b/s complex.

Once chosen, though how are these environments used to transform the mind? Notice that here Ra speaks of the immobility of both the male and females of Arcanum VI. Also note that all are standing (male -> moved), but are apparently awaiting an external mover for the proper two of them to begin their "dance".

This implies to me some association between the Transformation of the mind and the Fool, for are not both dealing with a similar choice? Is it perhaps an interaction with the Fool as mover that causes the action by the Transformation? But alas, the Fool seems abounding with male energy, rather than female. So what is it that "moves" the male in the Transformation?

I'm enjoying this discussion.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[unity100]

I think of sitting as the more powerful position. The king sits while his courtiers stand. Any other resonances come to mind?

This is, I think, a very perceptive observation, and follows also the mover/moved and male/female discussion earlier. Who is in the more powerful position, the mover or the moved? Who has more "power" in a relationship, the pursuer or the pursued?

i think that approach is wrong.

mover and moved would be pointless without each other.

leave that aside, it is questionable that one can even exist without the other.

it is probable that all the polarities are the parts of a single whole that balances into a total equilibrium (at point infinity, when there is perfect balance and there is stillness). perfect equilibrium means that one can never be more powerful than the other in the ultimate end. their effects should be equal.

however, it is possible that, in various manifestations, one part may be more active, and dominant than the other. this may reflect in mind, body, spirit situations and their internal and extrenal (with each other) relationships.

[βαθμιαίος]

It relates to the "mover/moved" discussion. The nature of female energy is to be passive and waiting, that of male to be active and reaching. For what it's worth, it seems to me the female is the "mover", the male is the "moved". This may be the opposite of other people's perceptions.

But wait, if the female is the mover, shouldn't she be standing? I thought you were associating the seated position with being passive and waiting.

This is, I think, a very perceptive observation, and follows also the mover/moved and male/female discussion earlier. Who is in the more powerful position, the mover or the moved? Who has more "power" in a relationship, the pursuer or the pursued?

Could the question of relative power be relevant to the negative path? It seems like on the positive path they'd have to be equal.

Following the earlier line of thinking then, it would seem to me that the Great Way is moving through the garden of available environments for experience and picking those that may be "fruitful" for further evolution of the m/b/s complex.

I like that a lot.

Once chosen, though how are these environments used to transform the mind? Notice that here Ra speaks of the immobility of both the male and females of Arcanum VI. Also note that all are standing (male -> moved), but are apparently awaiting an external mover for the proper two of them to begin their "dance".

I went back and re-read but only saw where Ra said that the females were immobile, not the male. "In this image of Transformation of Mind, then, each of the females points the way it would go, but is not able to move, nor are the two female entities striving to do so. They are at rest. The conscious entity holds both and will turn itself one way or the other or, potentially, backwards and forwards, rocking first one way then the other and not achieving the transformation. In order for the Transformation of Mind to occur, one principle governing the use of the deep mind must be abandoned." That sounds like the male will turn himself.

This implies to me some association between the Transformation of the mind and the Fool, for are not both dealing with a similar choice? Is it perhaps an interaction with the Fool as mover that causes the action by the Transformation? But alas, the Fool seems abounding with male energy, rather than female. So what is it that "moves" the male in the Transformation?

Ra does suggest a connection between the Transformation (as well as the Significator and the Great Way) here: "a proper understanding, if we may use this misnomer, of Archetype Twenty-Two is greatly helpful in sharpening the basic view of the Significator of Mind, Body, and Spirit and, further, throws into starker relief the Transformation and Great Way of Mind, Body, and Spirit complexes."

I'm enjoying this discussion.

Me, too. By the way, the tarot study guide on lawofone.info is helpful in that it shows the images in the order that Ra suggested: one, eight, fifteen, etc. and then one and two, three and four, etc. http://www.lawofone.info/pdfs/study-guid...etypes.pdf

[3D Sunset]

But wait, if the female is the mover, shouldn't she be standing? I thought you were associating the seated position with being passive and waiting.

To me, the female (mover) is quiescent except through her attention. She is the "mover" because she beckons the one to be moved with her charm and allure. It is through her attraction and attention that the male (moved) is motivated to take action.

The other way of looking at them is as the moving man vs furniture. The moving man is the "mover", the furniture is the "moved". The problem I have with this view is that it makes one of the parties inanimate. I think both are active, one mentally (mover), the other physically (moved).

Could the question of relative power be relevant to the negative path? It seems like on the positive path they'd have to be equal.

Recall that the cards represent both polarities and more importantly relate the characteristics of the archetype to familiar, 3D roles and experiences. Are not positions of power and powerful people familiar characteristics to us all? That is why I like your observation, it adds another dimension to my understanding of the cards. As such, I think it is perfectly appropriate to view the relative power represented by aspects of each archetype as an aid in explicating them.

I went back and re-read but only saw where Ra said that the females were immobile, not the male. "In this image of Transformation of Mind, then, each of the females points the way it would go, but is not able to move, nor are the two female entities striving to do so. They are at rest. The conscious entity holds both and will turn itself one way or the other or, potentially, backwards and forwards, rocking first one way then the other and not achieving the transformation. In order for the Transformation of Mind to occur, one principle governing the use of the deep mind must be abandoned." That sounds like the male will turn himself.

In the drawing, the male's feet are flat on the ground (just as are the females), which indicated to me his immobility . This is why I was looking for an external source for the impetus to move.

If I suppose for a moment though, that the male is able to move independent of an external source, then would it perhaps be his free will that causes the movement? This is consistent with the concept of turning one way and then the other, and also relates back to the Fool who blindly wanders where angles fear to tread.

Let us try then to tie this together in a tentative thread through the archetypal mind. The Great Way chooses environments, which, based upon the past free will choices, have produced polarizing experiences. Until the Transformation abandons one path for the other, however (initially through Foolish choices, but later based upon past experience), the Great Way cannot optimize environments based upon a preferred type of fruit.

Once an environment is selected, then the root of the mind through the Transformation selects how it will be manipulated (positively or negatively). This then colors how the experience is presented to the Significator, and the rest flows as stated earlier.

Although I am sure Ra is shaking his head and laughing right now, this does at least attempt to tie together the first seven with the Fool to form an "evolution model" for the mind.

What do you think?

Me, too. By the way, the tarot study guide on lawofone.info is helpful in that it shows the images in the order that Ra suggested: one, eight, fifteen, etc. and then one and two, three and four, etc. http://www.lawofone.info/pdfs/study-guid...etypes.pdf

Thanks, I will refer to it. Thanks also for all the excellent effort you have put into making the Law of One more accessible to its students.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[βαθμιαίος]

To me, the female (mover) is quiescent except through her attention. She is the "mover" because she beckons the one to be moved with her charm and allure. It is through her attraction and attention that the male (moved) is motivated to take action.

I'm wondering about the difference between "mover/moved" and "in motion/regulating motion." I think your understanding of Potentiator of the mind as beckoning the Matrix is right on, but I'm not sure it's relevant to the Matrix and Potentiator of the body. Ra said that the seated female figure (Matrix of the body) is always active with no possibility of being inactive, while the standing male (Potentiator of the body) is that which regulates activity. I'm still not clear why a seated figure is associated with activity/motion (as opposed to inducing motion as in the Potentiator of the mind), but in looking at the image it certainly does seem that a lot of activity is occurring.

Recall that the cards represent both polarities and more importantly relate the characteristics of the archetype to familiar, 3D roles and experiences. Are not positions of power and powerful people familiar characteristics to us all? That is why I like your observation, it adds another dimension to my understanding of the cards. As such, I think it is perfectly appropriate to view the relative power represented by aspects of each archetype as an aid in explicating them.

OK, but taking the Matrix and Potentiator of the body again, it's hard to say that the Potentiator is less powerful than the Matrix given that he apparently regulates her activity. In the case of the Matrix and Potentiator of the mind, it does seem appropriate to think of the Matrix going forth to court the Potentiator in a suppliant and seeking manner, on the positive path at least.

If I suppose for a moment though, that the male is able to move independent of an external source, then would it perhaps be his free will that causes the movement? This is consistent with the concept of turning one way and then the other, and also relates back to the Fool who blindly wanders where angles fear to tread.

Yes, I think so.

Let us try then to tie this together in a tentative thread through the archetypal mind. The Great Way chooses environments, which, based upon the past free will choices, have produced polarizing experiences. Until the Transformation abandons one path for the other, however (initially through Foolish choices, but later based upon past experience), the Great Way cannot optimize environments based upon a preferred type of fruit.

Once an environment is selected, then the root of the mind through the Transformation selects how it will be manipulated (positively or negatively). This then colors how the experience is presented to the Significator, and the rest flows as stated earlier.

Although I am sure Ra is shaking his head and laughing right now, this does at least attempt to tie together the first seven with the Fool to form an "evolution model" for the mind.

What do you think?

I like it. I share your sense that Ra may consider it to bear little of sense, especially because they always seemed to disagree whenever Don tried to tie the cards together by saying things like "the Significators ... are acted upon by the Catalyst" (88.17), but hey, we gotta bumble through somehow and they're unfortunately not currently available to answer our questions. Can we do the same for the body and spirit?

Thanks, I will refer to it. Thanks also for all the excellent effort you have put into making the Law of One more accessible to its students.

You're very welcome, but that one I can take no credit for. It was put together by a woman named Brandy Rox.

[3D Sunset]

I'm wondering about the difference between "mover/moved" and "in motion/regulating motion." I think your understanding of Potentiator of the mind as beckoning the Matrix is right on, but I'm not sure it's relevant to the Matrix and Potentiator of the body. Ra said that the seated female figure (Matrix of the body) is always active with no possibility of being inactive, while the standing male (Potentiator of the body) is that which regulates activity. I'm still not clear why a seated figure is associated with activity/motion (as opposed to inducing motion as in the Potentiator of the mind), but in looking at the image it certainly does seem that a lot of activity is occurring.

I think that the seated figure here is really associated with Balance, hence the subtitle. When considering the chemical matrix of the physical body, one sees a constant set of forces working to achieve their own balance, and in so doing, offsetting the other forces. I think the unceasing motion that you and Ra refer to is evidenced by all the other creatures on the card: a bird flying, is that an angelic figure flying also?, what about he sphinx and the lioness? all seem to be moving.

Another observation about the seated female is that she is blindfolded. This may be indicative of the veil, but it seems to me more indicative of the blindness of Justice (as are the scales). But why justice? Isn't justice all about resolving imbalances? So do we see in the matrix of the body the need to constantly find and resolve imbalances or injustices in a never ending cycle?

One last thought: The seated form here, may connote submission, rather than dominance (as may the blindfold). When we spoke of power earlier, we didn't mention that sometimes, the one standing is in the more powerful position. I think that this double meaning, is also being hinted at here. When the potentiator does not assert itself, then the matrix is in control. When the potentiator does asset itself, the matrix is (momentarily) tamed and becomes submissive.

Although I am sure Ra is shaking his head and laughing right now, this does at least attempt to tie together the first seven with the Fool to form an "evolution model" for the mind.

What do you think?

I like it. I share your sense that Ra may consider it to bear little of sense, especially because they always seemed to disagree whenever Don tried to tie the cards together by saying things like "the Significators ... are acted upon by the Catalyst" (88.17), but hey, we gotta bumble through somehow and they're unfortunately not currently available to answer our questions.

True, and yet it seemed to me that what Ra objected too most was Don's attempts to simplify the relationships, as it were. (88.17) "but the archetypes are all basically doing the same thing", for example.

Don also tended to try to show the march through the mind cards (since this is the group he explored most fully) as a march through the evolution of the mind. That is to say, he kept trying to show the transformation and great way as the goals, or end-states of evolution, rather than as an integral part of an improvement cycle (I use that term intentionally, for I see more than passing similarities between this evolutionary cycle and six-sigma, or any process improvement process... for what is evolution but an infinite improvement process?). At any rate that is one of the aspects I thought belonged in the evolutionary model and that I think is reflected herein.

Please note that I am saying that I am smarter than Don about these things. Rather, I made every attempt to learn from the missteps that Don made and that Ra commented on.

Can we do the same for the body and spirit?

I have not studied the body or spirit in any great detail as yet, but I am certainly game to try. First though, do you think we should try to explore the mind cards in more detail individually? Or do you think it would be best to try to look at Matrix and Potentiator of mind, body and spirit in groups perhaps?

Thanks for keeping the discussion going, this is most beneficial for me.

3D Sunset

[βαθμιαίος]

I think that the seated figure here is really associated with Balance, hence the subtitle. When considering the chemical matrix of the physical body, one sees a constant set of forces working to achieve their own balance, and in so doing, offsetting the other forces. I think the unceasing motion that you and Ra refer to is evidenced by all the other creatures on the card: a bird flying, is that an angelic figure flying also?, what about he sphinx and the lioness? all seem to be moving.

Yeah, there's certainly lots of action in that image, isn't there? I think you're right about it reflecting all the various conscious and unconscious processes of the body. I wonder if specific elements refer to specific processes.

Another observation about the seated female is that she is blindfolded. This may be indicative of the veil, but it seems to me more indicative of the blindness of Justice (as are the scales). But why justice? Isn't justice all about resolving imbalances? So do we see in the matrix of the body the need to constantly find and resolve imbalances or injustices in a never ending cycle?

Could be. But I'm not comfortable putting too much weight on the names like Justice or Balance given that Ra didn't always find them appropriate (ie the World is "somewhat provincial").

One last thought: The seated form here, may connote submission, rather than dominance (as may the blindfold). When we spoke of power earlier, we didn't mention that sometimes, the one standing is in the more powerful position. I think that this double meaning, is also being hinted at here. When the potentiator does not assert itself, then the matrix is in control. When the potentiator does asset itself, the matrix is (momentarily) tamed and becomes submissive.

Nice point.

True, and yet it seemed to me that what Ra objected too most was Don's attempts to simplify the relationships, as it were. (88.17) "but the archetypes are all basically doing the same thing", for example.

That and his tendency to say "the Matrix does this, the Potentiator does that" rather than recognizing the archetypes as resources of the deep mind that can be called upon.

Don also tended to try to show the march through the mind cards (since this is the group he explored most fully) as a march through the evolution of the mind. That is to say, he kept trying to show the transformation and great way as the goals, or end-states of evolution, rather than as an integral part of an improvement cycle (I use that term intentionally, for I see more than passing similarities between this evolutionary cycle and six-sigma, or any process improvement process... for what is evolution but an infinite improvement process?). At any rate that is one of the aspects I thought belonged in the evolutionary model and that I think is reflected herein.

I think your approach is and will be fruitful.

I have not studied the body or spirit in any great detail as yet, but I am certainly game to try. First though, do you think we should try to explore the mind cards in more detail individually? Or do you think it would be best to try to look at Matrix and Potentiator of mind, body and spirit in groups perhaps?

I would love to go through the cards in the manner Ra suggested: first in groups of three -- one, eight, fifteen, etc.; then in pairs -- one, two; three, four; five; six, seven.

With that in mind, here are one, eight, and fifteen:

Thanks for keeping the discussion going, this is most beneficial for me.

And for me, too.

[3D Sunset]

I wonder if specific elements refer to specific processes.

Good question. I think that perhaps some do, but not all. Let's consider some of them (below are my interpretations of the images and possible meanings... Please share yours if they differ):

1. The swaying fan - Is this perhaps associated with regulation of body temperature and/or breathing?
2. The flying bird - Birds are frequently associated with reincarnation (a la the Phoenix in Egyptian mythology). Perhaps the bird here also represents the rapid passing of time in this life, that will lead to another (and also implies that our past is brought with us into this life).
3. The flying angel(?) - I think angles always have a spiritual association, perhaps here it represents that freedom (denoted by its flying) from life is to be achieved through the spirit. I have also read that angels symbolic meaning in dreams is that we should examine our motives.
4. The walking sphinx - Perhaps this represents the guard to the riddles of life (recall the riddle of the sphinx). I have also read the sphinx associated with the human senses.
5. The stalking lion - Perhaps the importance of hunger and the need to feed the body.
6. The swinging sword - I find it hard not to see this implying mortality. Ultimately life is a function of the matrix of the body. Without the body there is no life, so attention must be paid to the workings and needs of the body. If the body is ignored, it can always "pull the plug", so to speak.

Could be. But I'm not comfortable putting too much weight on the names like Justice or Balance given that Ra didn't always find them appropriate (ie the World is "somewhat provincial").

I agree, but in this case, I was basing my weight on this quote by Ra:

In the body the matrix may be seen as Balanced Working or Even Functioning

I would love to go through the cards in the manner Ra suggested: first in groups of three -- one, eight, fifteen, etc.; then in pairs -- one, two; three, four; five; six, seven.

This is fine, but I suggest that we complete our discussion of Card VIII first.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[βαθμιαίος]

Good question. I think that perhaps some do, but not all. Let's consider some of them (below are my interpretations of the images and possible meanings... Please share yours if they differ):

Good idea.

1. The swaying fan - Is this perhaps associated with regulation of body temperature and/or breathing?

Makes sense.

2. The flying bird - Birds are frequently associated with reincarnation (a la the Phoenix in Egyptian mythology). Perhaps the bird here also represents the rapid passing of time in this life, that will lead to another (and also implies that our past is brought with us into this life).

I wonder if it's relevant that it seems to be a certain type of bird, maybe a goose but I think a condor or vulture, which might imply something about death and rebirth. Ra said that the position of the wings was relevant in the bird images. This one's are extended, but it's not flying. I can't tell what it's grasping -- the back of the chair? the angel's headpiece?

Ra also associated birds with the spirit manifesting, so perhaps the bird here suggests something along the lines of the spirit needing the body in order to manifest.

3. The flying angel(?) - I think angles always have a spiritual association, perhaps here it represents that freedom (denoted by its flying) from life is to be achieved through the spirit. I have also read that angels symbolic meaning in dreams is that we should examine our motives.

Its wings seem to be held protectively over the seated female figure. They're also at the 45 degree angle that Ra said was indicative of transformation.

4. The walking sphinx - Perhaps this represents the guard to the riddles of life (recall the riddle of the sphinx). I have also read the sphinx associated with the human senses.

Ra associated the sphinx with time in their explanation of the Great Way of the Body. I wonder what it means that the sphinx is standing on top of the lion.

5. The stalking lion - Perhaps the importance of hunger and the need to feed the body.

The lion reappears in the Experience of the Body, which I've always assumed represented the subconscious (female figure) guiding the physical body (lion). I'm not sure if that's right or not, but it does seem like this lion must be related to that one somehow.

6. The swinging sword - I find it hard not to see this implying mortality. Ultimately life is a function of the matrix of the body. Without the body there is no life, so attention must be paid to the workings and needs of the body. If the body is ignored, it can always "pull the plug", so to speak.

The sword looks to me like one of those items Ra would have said to release from its stricture, but maybe not, since she's also holding a balance, which does seem appropriate. It looks like her feet are on a cushioned stool; I wonder if that has any relevance. It also looks like she's sitting on the cube which Ra said elsewhere represents the material world. That would mean that all of these processes actually take place outside of manifestation, which is surprising to me. She is blindfolded, which goes along with the justice idea, as does the sword, really. The fact that she's female indicates that all of this takes place subconsciously.

This is fine, but I suggest that we complete our discussion of Card VIII first.

Works for me.

[AnthroHeart]

So then, would a first density rock be male or female?
Does then fire, water and air have either male or female energies?

I think that mover/moved is more fundamental.

It relates to the "mover/moved" discussion. The nature of female energy is to be passive and waiting, that of male to be active and reaching. For what it's worth, it seems to me the female is the "mover", the male is the "moved". This may be the opposite of other people's perceptions.

[3D Sunset]

It relates to the "mover/moved" discussion. The nature of female energy is to be passive and waiting, that of male to be active and reaching. For what it's worth, it seems to me the female is the "mover", the male is the "moved". This may be the opposite of other people's perceptions.

So then, would a first density rock be male or female?
Does then fire, water and air have either male or female energies?

I think that mover/moved is more fundamental.

Hi Gemini,

I'm not sure I get your point here. I was trying to say that I think the concept of male/female energies are related to (or more accurately descended from) those of mover/moved that were harvested from the last octave, as had been earlier discussed by Unity and βαθμιαίος. My larger point was that I interpreted the mover/moved relationships as applying to the opposite genders than I heard one or both of them indicating.

I did not mean to imply that everywhere one sees a mover/moved relationship, they can equate them with male/female energies (although this may be true, I'll have to about it). It does seem to me though, that once an entity evolves to mid 2D (wherein the male and female genders exist), then the mover/moved relationships follow their inclinations toward the gender tendencies that I stated above.

Note also, that these are only inclinations and tendencies. Within all of us reside both male and female energies. Similarly, all of us regularly act as both mover and moved, defender and aggressor, predator and prey, covert and overt, subtle and loud, the reacher and the reached for, etc.

Within first density, I think the role of mover/moved are more appropriate roles to refer to than the gender tendencies. Given the right situation earth, air, fire and water could play either role. Generally, though, I think earth and air are usually "moved", fire and water are usually "movers".

Have I missed your point?

3D Sunset

[AnthroHeart]

Ok, I was thinking that by the time of harvest into our octave, that the concept of mover and moved would be merged. Just like our polarities of STS and STO will be unified at the completion of our octave. So I don't believe mover/moved would influence our octave in the same manner that they would have in the earlier octave.

So here, there wouldn't be the concept of mover/moved in the same manner. So I don't see how mover/moved could influence anything. Unless perhaps one of those polarities became our octave, making this octave either a mover or a moved octave. But still, I think it doesn't really affect our Universe in that way.

[unity100]

So then, would a first density rock be male or female?
Does then fire, water and air have either male or female energies?

I think that mover/moved is more fundamental.

It relates to the "mover/moved" discussion. The nature of female energy is to be passive and waiting, that of male to be active and reaching. For what it's worth, it seems to me the female is the "mover", the male is the "moved". This may be the opposite of other people's perceptions.

i think male/female, mover/moved, negative/positive balances exist in any given aspect of existence. be it a rock, be it a different rock, be it anything, in different weights. they are not the same from rock to rock (even if they are very close), i believe.

[Monica]

Polarity in the spirit complex has to do with light and dark more than it does with male and female. It's all about radiance vs absorption, after all.

I'm re-joining this discussion late, so please excuse me if my comments have already been addressed.

I'll refrain from saying too much until I've read the rest of the thread, but for now just wanted to interject that I think of male/female in relation to each other, not as gender. Something might be 'male' (active) in relation to something, but female (receptive) in relation to something else.

Hence, it doesn't necessarily have a particular polarity or even attribute, but only in terms of its relationship to others.

---

then again, maybe light and dark themselves have to do with male and female

In Taoism, they indeed do correspond.

---

mover and moved would be pointless without each other.

leave that aside, it is questionable that one can even exist without the other.

it is probable that all the polarities are the parts of a single whole that balances into a total equilibrium (at point infinity, when there is perfect balance and there is stillness). perfect equilibrium means that one can never be more powerful than the other in the ultimate end. their effects should be equal.

however, it is possible that, in various manifestations, one part may be more active, and dominant than the other. this may reflect in mind, body, spirit situations and their internal and extrenal (with each other) relationships.

As depicted by the Tao (Yin/Yang equal, flowing one into the other, constantly moving).

[ricdaw]

As a student of tarot, and a relatively accomplished tarot reader, I offer these observations on cards 1 and 2.

Card 1: Matrix of the Mind (Magician) is pure consciousness. Pure awareness. It has no means of movement because it is just thoughts. It also represents will.

Card 2: High Priestess is the Stuff of the Making. It is described in Book 2 as Love/Light. Think of it as play-doh, the unformed clay of all that is. This magical Love/Light responds to willpower and becomes things (and events).

So the purpose of the Potentiator (card 2) is to give the Matrix (card 1) the *ability* to do something. The Magician discovers/learns that by applying the thoughts and willpower to the deep potential "play-doh" (love/light) of the High Priestess, *things happen.* Mind is the Maker. Card 1 *makes* it all by exercising will upon the raw firmament of the unconscious High Priestess. The principle is You Create Your Own Reality. It is veiled from us. We can't do it very well. Or very fast. Many don't believe we do it at all and that the universe is a machine acting randomly regardless of our thoughts and intentions. But this is the major interation between cards 1 and 2.

---

Cards 1, 8 and 15 are all Matrix cards.

1 is male because it is the *active* part of the 1/2 interaction: thinking and willing.

8 is female because a body (which is what it represents) is passive. It doesn't go anywhere or do anything unless the Mind tells it too. (Thus Card 9 is Male, the Hermit, which is the wisdom to put the body to active uses. It's quite a practical card. That archtype is what's letting my fingers do the keyboarding right now.) Card 8 has a blindfold because it is analogous to Card 1. But it is the physical (body) portion of consciousness, rather than the mental portion of consciousness. (We are a trinity here: mind, body and spirit.) Our physical bodies are amazing in that blood pumps, cells reproduce, kidneys filter, etc. but all this is done outside conscious control. But there *is* an actual consciousness doing all that stuff. Think of it as an inner person. Very smart. Lots of thoughts. But all directed to bodily functions and maintaining bodily "balance." This other consciousness is even more veiled from us than the love/light play-doh of the high priestess. Her veils are at least permeable. But the body's veil is an actual blindfold. We really can't "see" or communicate with our body consciousness and that is why the card has that blindfold on it.

But for all that lack of seeing, it is nothing compared to card 15 (the Devil). In that card of darkness, the human figures have entire bags over their heads. More than veiled, more than blindfolded, we come down here to the Earth Life School utterly lost in darkness and hooded over. We have no *conscious* connection to spirit at all. (Al least with our bodies, despite the blindfold, we can *feel* blood pumping and know we have a body!) In the spiritual sense for card 15, Matrix of the Spirit, we are utterly bereft of any actual knowledge and connection to spirit. We have *no* conscious connection to spirit.

So. Card 1 - mental consciousness.
Card 8 - body consciosuness
Card 15 - spiritual consciousness

These are our birthrights for incarnation here. The Matrices or designs of consciousness. We have a fully active an engaged mental consciousness, a balanced but autonomic/automatic body consciousness, and a totally blind spiritual consciousness (meaning, we can't *consciously* access spirit down here.

For what it's worth.

---

Re male/female.

I think the cards use the gender IDs male/female to convey active/passive. +/-. Shining/absorbing.

Sometimes they reflect polarity (see the Sun) sometimes they reflect active/passive (see Cards 1&2, 8&9). They are allegories, but not the actual teachings. They are like fingers. They point at the true information. But they are not the actual intended teaching.

---

"I'm still not really buying the idea that standing = male and seated = female, given that there are standing females and seated males among the archetypes. I think there must be some other resonance or implication, but I'm not sure what." βαθμιαίος

Another flavor of the active/passive principle. Added emphasis. Card 1 and Card 9 are standing. Both are male. It's a way to say the same thing with a different allegorical image. Same with Cards 2 and 8: females sitting.

That is not to say that the sitting *always* means female. (See card 5.) It's just a way to say the same thing and help the novice decode the images.

---

βαθμιαίος wrote: "Here's a quote that seems relevant that I've never totally grasped:

Quote:
92.18 ...the portion of the infant which may be articulated by the Matrix of the Mind is indeed unfed by experience and has the bias of reaching for this experience through free will just as intelligent energy in the kinetic phase, through free will, creates the Logos. These sub-sub-Logoi, then, or those portions of the mind/body/spirit complex which may be articulated by consideration of the Potentiators of Mind and Body, through free will, choose to make alterations in their experiential continuum. The results of these experiments in novelty are then recorded in the portion of the mind and body articulated by the Matrices thereof.

It says the Potentiators choose to make alterations in their experiential continuum. If the Matrix is the one reaching, isn't he the one choosing to make alterations? And why are the results recorded in the Matrices? Wouldn't the results be recorded in the Significators?"
***************************************************
Please excuse me if I am too wordy today. You folks have had a great conversation and I'm bursting with comments on it!

During our incarnation down here on planet earth, the "results of experiments in novelty" aka our lifetimes, are recorded in the mind (memories, Card 1) and in our bodies (the consumption of food makes us fat, catalyst unprocessed by the mind gets processed by the body, aka cancer, illness, etc., training lets us drive cards with feet and hands . . . you get it.) However, the *permanent record* of our "expereiments in novelty" is recorded in Card 5. That is the Essential Us that comes back over and over again in each incarnation. It is another portion of the Mind. Very deep. It has our preincrnation biases and skills. The parts we take with us from lifetime to lifetime. Become a fantastic healer in one life, come into the next with those skills latent and ready to pick up again where you left off. Card 5. It is our permanent suitcase. Or our permanent storage locker where all our lives, all our combined "experiments in novelty" are housed. The Akashic record of just the One Us.

[ricdaw]

3D Sunset wrote: "Let us try then to tie this together in a tentative thread through the archetypal mind. The Great Way chooses environments, which, based upon the past free will choices, have produced polarizing experiences. Until the Transformation abandons one path for the other, however (initially through Foolish choices, but later based upon past experience), the Great Way cannot optimize environments based upon a preferred type of fruit."

"Once an environment is selected, then the root of the mind through the Transformation selects how it will be manipulated (positively or negatively). This then colors how the experience is presented to the Significator, and the rest flows as stated earlier."

"Although I am sure Ra is shaking his head and laughing right now, this does at least attempt to tie together the first seven with the Fool to form an "evolution model" for the mind."

"What do you think?"

I think that cards 6 & 7 are not part of an evolutionary flow. Don tried to link them that way and Ra was not supportive. Cards 6 and 7 are essentially exortations to *us* the knowledgeable students of the LOO. Card 6 (the lovers) is about that fundamental choice of being in, or of, the world. Think of that other Matrix, the movie. Remember red pill or blue pill? Once Neo learned about how all the world was an illusion, a projection of the machines and the enslavement of mankind, he too was offered a choice: take one pill and forget it all and go back to regular living, or take the other and always know.

In Card 6, no less that that same concept is depicted. Once you realize that we are here for a purpose (choose polarity) and that thoughts can make things happen (Magician), and that the Adept is one who is able to manipulate consciousness at will, you need to go one way or the other. Choosing TV is not an option. It's all about Neo's choice. What do you do when you really get it in the gut that Ra is right? Do you wait for harvest, but still keep your day job and to hedge your bets? If you choose StO, do you spend the weekend delivering meals on wheels, or do you give all that you have to the charity? This is a real scary card, the Lovers. It is the Choice that can upend your life and comforts. But if you really really really got it, wouldn't the only answer be to throw everything else away and to really *serve* the Creator and your own conscious Choice of StO?

I'm afraid of this card. It shows me my cowardice. It is a very humbling archetype.

Card 7 is the exortation and the reward for being willing to make the choice StO. It holds the promise of taking the blue pill. Maybe someday I will be brave enough . . . .

[AnthroHeart]

Everyone has their own way of serving Creator. In fact, Ra says it is impossible not to serve Creator. Everything we have (the material things) are energetic vibrational patterns. They are around us for a reason. Together with us, their combined vibration presents a vibrational harmony for Creator in a way that no other pattern can. With this, as Ra so beautifully put it, "the hand of Creator can pluck harmony." So we, doing what we are doing, and being what we are being, are exactly what we need to do and be, at our current place at this current space-time nexus point.

Doing meals on wheels all the time can be admirable. But it's not about what we do, but what vibration we hold. After all, we are human beings, not human doings.

wouldn't the only answer be to throw everything else away and to really *serve* the Creator

[ricdaw]

Gemini Wolf wrote:
"Everyone has their own way of serving Creator. In fact, Ra says it is impossible not to serve Creator. Everything we have (the material things) are energetic vibrational patterns. They are around us for a reason. Together with us, their combined vibration presents a vibrational harmony for Creator in a way that no other pattern can. With this, as Ra so beautifully put it, "the hand of Creator can pluck harmony." So we, doing what we are doing, and being what we are being, are exactly what we need to do and be, at our current place at this current space-time nexus point."

True. True. But Card 6 (IMHO) is asking for us to make a choice. I was talking about the gravity or importance of that choice. If we are already perfect as-is, what use are any of the cards?

Gemini Wolf wrote:
"Doing meals on wheels all the time can be admirable. But it's not about what we do, but what vibration we hold. After all, we are human beings, not human doings."

What we do, say and think are the three most powerful ways of increasing vibration. So, it can be about doing. It's one of the ways. In the context of Card 6, RA is not very favorably inclined toward the male figure who is at rest: neither choosing right nor left. The Card asks for a "doing." Again, my answers are in the context of Book IV and the tarot cards, not anything more.

[Monica]

So then, would a first density rock be male or female?
Does then fire, water and air have either male or female energies?

According to Chinese medicine, yes.