Why I am not a vegan

[AnthroHeart]

I know. I'm getting old.

You're not that old, I don't think. We're all always getting older.

I meant repetitive.

[AngelofDeath]

I know. I'm getting old.

You're not that old, I don't think. We're all always getting older.

I meant repetitive.

Well, they say insanity is doing the same thing but expecting different results.

[AnthroHeart]

I am already mentally insane. I don't think I can be doubly insane.

[Lighthead]

I now see why Monica gets so frustrated with these threads. It seems like these issues are brought up by people who defend the eating of meat, ad nauseum.

You mean....sorta like how she and others attack eating meat, ad nauseum?  That right there, is what we call irony.

Why do you think that the eating of meat needs to be defended? Please explain it from your point of view. As Monica has said, because you like the taste is a poor excuse.

[AngelofDeath]

I am already mentally insane. I don't think I can be doubly insane.

You are no more insane the rest of us, my friend. We're all a little lost and confused.

[AngelofDeath]

I now see why Monica gets so frustrated with these threads. It seems like these issues are brought up by people who defend the eating of meat, ad nauseum.

You mean....sorta like how she and others attack eating meat, ad nauseum?  That right there, is what we call irony.

Why do you think that the eating of meat needs to be defended? Please explain it from your point of view. As Monica has said, because you like the taste is a poor excuse.

I'm gonna be bold and jump on to this particular point. WHY is enjoying the taste a poor excuse? Why would it be considered purely an excuse at all?

Note: I have not and am not actually defending either side of this argument, I don't think either side 'needs defending'. I believe humans are adaptive and we are CAPABLE of many, many things. That some say one thing is absolutely better and others say another thing is better leaves me with only myself to decide. In some ways, I think I view myself as a scavenger when it comes to food, I will eat mostly anything.

[AnthroHeart]

I am already mentally insane. I don't think I can be doubly insane.

You are no more insane the rest of us, my friend. We're all a little lost and confused.

You seem to have it together. You have magical propensity. I've wanted desperately to work with intelligent energy.

[AngelofDeath]

I am already mentally insane. I don't think I can be doubly insane.

You are no more insane the rest of us, my friend. We're all a little lost and confused.

You seem to have it together. You have magical propensity. I've wanted desperately to work with intelligent energy.

Appearances can be deceiving. Everyone has the capacity for magic, but as it is so cliche to say, with power comes responsibility.

[Monica]

I'm gonna be bold and jump on to this particular point. WHY is enjoying the taste a poor excuse? Why would it be considered purely an excuse at all?

I will counter that with a question for you:

Is it congruent with the STO path to enjoy some pleasure, such as taste, at the expense of another sentient being? Ie., if our choice to enjoy xyz causes them to suffer and violates their free will?

[AngelofDeath]

I'm gonna be bold and jump on to this particular point. WHY is enjoying the taste a poor excuse? Why would it be considered purely an excuse at all?

I will counter that with a question for you:

Is it congruent with the STO path to enjoy some pleasure, such as taste, at the expense of another sentient being? Ie., if our choice to enjoy xyz causes them to suffer and violates their free will?

Please answer my questions first, then I will respond.

[AnthroHeart]

If I could just see through the veil, for a moment. I think that's what I desire most.

[AngelofDeath]

If I could just see through the veil, for a moment. I think that's what I desire most.

So do you expect it to just be given to you or are you willing to take on the responsibility for the work it takes to penetrate the veil? Indifference is insanity, endless circles.

[Monica]

Please answer my question first, then I will respond.

I'll let Lighthead answer, since that was his comment, not mine. (Though I agree with him.)

[AnthroHeart]

I don't know. I can be pretty whimsical even when I'm trying to be serious. Hard to stay dedicated to anything for long.

[AngelofDeath]

I don't know. I can be pretty whimsical even when I'm trying to be serious. Hard to stay dedicated to anything for long.

Then so your path shall be.

[AnthroHeart]

I don't know. I can be pretty whimsical even when I'm trying to be serious. Hard to stay dedicated to anything for long.

Then so your path shall be.

And it's a fantastic path. With bits of mysticism in there. But not enough to be dangerous. I don't think.

[AngelofDeath]

I'm gonna be bold and jump on to this particular point. WHY is enjoying the taste a poor excuse? Why would it be considered purely an excuse at all?

I will counter that with a question for you:

Is it congruent with the STO path to enjoy some pleasure, such as taste, at the expense of another sentient being? Ie., if our choice to enjoy xyz causes them to suffer and violates their free will?

Your question is convoluted in terms of time and cause and effect. It is worded in a way that expects an incorrect or correct answer, it seems.

I see the causal pattern you are trying to insinuate but it is specific and leaves details out. No, it is not 'congruent with the STO path' (the path according to the Ra Material, mind you) to gain at the expense of another, which is what you are insinuating. The question of the nature of the enjoyment had while eating is another thing. Why assume that everyone who is eating meat is gleefully thinking of the cruelty the animal may have experienced before it died? That seems a little morbid.

While yes, you could say that people eating meat leads to animals thus being killed for meat, that is fair reasoning, the minds of those who ultimately receive the meat are not the same as those who raise and slaughter the animals. Again, looking through this thread, it seems there is the same point of cruelty. I've read through some of your posts and I understand that you think killing (particularly sentient creatures by sentient creatures) is pretty much always wrong and 'STS', so your question to me here isn't surprising. I can't argue with your concepts regarding torture because I am with you on the points that animals should be nurtured. I, like you, would be perfectly content with "grown" meat if I could back up the science.

However, coming back to the point of the question which is the congruency with service-to-others, it is easy to say that particular scenario doesn't reflect service to others. That doesn't at all however define the entirety of an individual's path and their work towards service to others. It is part of the STO path to recognize that you enjoy the taste of whatever it is you enjoy. It would also be part of the STO path to accept that about yourself. From there would then be the decision as to how to be more of service to these other selves, the service which would be unique to each individual. There would also be recognizing that others enjoy that taste and accepting that about them, loving them despite their supposed STS nature. Then one would share their understandings of love/light in whatever way they best know as themselves, how each one knows the One Infinite in their own personal way. Then one would begin to conceptualize the taste on a planetary level, and this is where we actually encounter the difficulty that you are focused upon which would be the source, environment and conditions from which the taste arose. There are many, many paths for service to others, so each might go about their own way in finding a way to be of service to the other selves they see to be tied to that experience.

[Monica]

Is enjoying the suffering of other humans congruent to the STO path? Is murdering or raping other humans congruent with the STO path? (in general...NOT talking about self-defense here.)

[Spaced]

Do you enjoy owning consumer goods like electronics and clothing? There's a large chance that somewhere down the line humans suffered during the production of those goods. Do you think about that when you get a nice pair of shoes and think "haha these shoes are great, I can feel all the suffering that went down in the sweatshop they were made, I love it!"

[AngelofDeath]

Is enjoying the suffering of other humans congruent to the STO path? Is murdering or raping other humans congruent with the STO path? (in general...NOT talking about self-defense here.)

Again, this is convoluted. No, enjoying the act of causing suffering to others would not be STO, which is what you are implying. However, if you examine yourself and discover you find enjoyment in the thought of others suffering, I don't think that immediately means you are STS, especially if you do not carry out these actions in the physical. I think there is then an opportunity to examine that feeling and complex within yourself and come to an acceptance and understanding of why it is there.

Also, just because someone has a thought in their head doesn't necessarily mean they desire what is in that thought and I think that's a complicated point in that sometimes the mind just flashes up some weird images and it can be confusing whether or not one is supposed to identify with these images. I, naturally, have learned that not everything in my mind is "mine" exactly (in that thoughts don't have to hold a charge if I don't want them to).

Naturally, acting to murder and rape would not at all be congruent with the STO path, nor the enjoyment thereof. However, I don't believe one who finds those thoughts in their mind can immediately be cast as self serving. I think, in most cases, the individual is highly confused. I am one that believes quite strongly in rehabilitation and it seems sensible to me to attempt to rehabilitate the mind before the body has acted. That requires the individual to be aware and accept these things about themselves which happens through open, accepting love and compassion. Only when one is aware can one change their patterns consciously. One who is unconscious shouldn't be judged for their confusion.

[Monica]

What all of you are missing is that eating meat isn't necessary. The meat industry exists as a direct result of demand. Choosing to eat meat is choosing to contribute to unnecessary suffering.

[AngelofDeath]

See, there's the right answer you were looking for.

[Monica]

Naturally, acting to murder and rape would not at all be congruent with the STO path, nor the enjoyment thereof.

Naturally. Why is it so obvious that murdering/raping human other-selves isn't congruent with the STO path, but heated debate about murdering/raping younger other-selves?

[Monica]

No, enjoying the act of causing suffering to others would not be STO

How about enjoying something that is a luxury, but you know that it was obtained by the suffering, torture and death of others? and you also know that it is completely unnecessary and you have the power to help prevent said suffering and death?

[AngelofDeath]

Naturally, acting to murder and rape would not at all be congruent with the STO path, nor the enjoyment thereof.

Naturally. Why is it so obvious that murdering/raping human other-selves isn't congruent with the STO path, but heated debate about murdering/raping younger other-selves?

I didn't make any specification of the subject being murdered or raped.

[Spaced]

Who here has murdered or raped an animal?

Here you are trying to control the narrative again

Humans suffer, die and are raped in sweatshops so therefore you as a person who wears clothing are directly responsible. What you are missing is that wearing clothes isn't necessary. The clothing industry exists as a direct result of demand. Choosing to wear clothes is choosing to contribute to unnecessary suffering.

Do you see how easy this is?

[AngelofDeath]

No, enjoying the act of causing suffering to others would not be STO

How about enjoying something that is a luxury, but you know that it was obtained by the suffering, torture and death of others? and you also know that it is completely unnecessary and you have the power to help prevent said suffering and death?

Were I to condemn myself for the enjoyment of luxuries that came at the expense of others I would immediately become an ascetic. You are shoving your values down my throat, but I don't really find anything necessary. Luxury nor lack of luxury is necessary. Life nor death are necessary. I have already accepted the dregs of pain by living a societal life in a city, I don't need to differentiate between this or that depressing fact about that matter. Everything humans create is dripped in misery, except for those few sanctuaries.

If you are trying to make me feel guilty or "be aware" of the pain that goes on on this planet and around me, I'm afraid I am already too full of those things for any more.

[Monica]

Who here has murdered or raped an animal?

Anyone who eats meat or dairy. Simple supply and demand. Cows are repeatedly raped, to keep them perpetually pregnant or lactating. Animals must be killed in order to eat them.

Humans suffer, die and are raped in sweatshops so therefore you as a person who wears clothing are directly responsible. What you are missing is that wearing clothes isn't necessary. The clothing industry exists as a direct result of demand. Choosing to wear clothes is choosing to contribute to unnecessary suffering.

Do you see how easy this is?

Yes, I see how easy it is for meat-eaters to continue to shirk responsibility for their choices. The definition of vegan means to avoid contributing to the suffering to the best of our ability. Walking around naked isn't doable in our society, so your comparison is absurd. Even then, we can make choices as to which businesses we wish to support, with our purchases.

Contributing to the abominable meat/dairy industry is completely unnecessary. No comparison with wearing clothes. Driving cars? One can impact the environment much more powerfully by quitting meat and dairy, than by riding a bicycle. We can't prevent all suffering. Why not do what we can?

But apparently it's easier to just continue to argue for one's choices.

[AngelofDeath]

I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously anymore. I just see this hilarious caricature of a television evangelist.

[Monica]

You are shoving your values down my throat,

That's absurd. The forum has an ignore button. If you don't like my comments, then quit responding to them. Don't throw that "You are controlling me!" line at me!

If you are trying to make me feel guilty or "be aware" of the pain that goes on on this planet and around me, I'm afraid I am already too full of those things for any more.

As evidenced by the Eating Tomatoes is STS thread, it is impossible for me to make anyone feel guilty, even if I wanted to. Guilt comes from within.