Ra's Statements About 2D Entities

[Diana]

But sarcasm, belittlement, STS accusations and aggro PMs aren't the way I'd go about it.

But the above bolded is exactly what you did. Discussing STS/STO is a rather large subject matter of this forum is it not? I have no idea what the PMs are all about...

I'm not ganging up on you. I just read the recent posts and posted my response. I was just expressing my opinion on what I observed.

Jade, you are still thinking Monica belittled the amount of time you have been vegan. Honestly, I REALLY don't think that was the intention. Perhaps you could reread when you are not upset about it.

[Jade]

Jade, you are still thinking Monica belittled the amount of time you have been vegan. Honestly, I REALLY don't think that was the intention. Perhaps you could reread when you are not upset about it.

Diana, I'm not upset now, so I will repost and rebold for you since the words don't change:

Lighthead: Thanks for your feedback. I'm glad to hear that you've gotten some value out of these discussions!  Smile

Jade: Thanks for your feedback. Aggressive?  Were the abolitionists aggressive? Were their passion and tenacity counterproductive? Hmmm...maybe they should have toned it down. Maybe slavery would still be legal, but at least the slave-'owners' wouldn't have gotten their delicate sensibilities offended (a much more important matter than helping the slaves!). Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I sure don't want to make the same mistake they did!

Ah, well, I started out walking on eggshells, but you weren't around back then. Maybe, after 5 years of discussing this topic here at B4, maybe I've become old and crusty. (I've been here longer than you've been vegan, and that's not even counting the 28 years before that.)

Maybe it's time for me to retire. Can I pass the torch to you?

What these threads need is a fresh, young voice! ...one who won't ever offend anyone. As a relatively new vegan, your perspective is fresh. Maybe you can do a better job! - this whole sentence/post is sarcastic so the bold is derisive

Will you be a voice for our younger other-selves? Have you studied what Ra has said about them? Do you hear their call? Will you speak up on behalf of those who are crying out but whose call is being ignored? And if you can do so in a better way than I did, I am relieved and appreciative! I will gladly pass the torch to you!

Please let me know how you're doing in 5 years, and then again in 25.  Wink

OMG Jade, you have completely misunderstood!!!! groan

I wasn't deriding you AT ALL for being vegan 'only 3 years'!! Not at all. Gosh, I would hope that you'd know I commend you for being vegan!!!

You chastised me for being 'too aggressive' and I was simply making the point that I have been participating in these discussions, consistently, despite people being extremely rude to me, even in the early days when I was walking on eggshells and going out of my way to be considerate and non-judgmental, even when being called outright nasty names, for longer than you've been vegan. I simply stated a fact. If you thought that was derisive, then you read something into it that wasn't there. Please reread my previous post and you'll see that it's not there. My point was NOT to deride you for not being vegan as long as I have! That would be absurd!

My point was simply to suggest that you walk a mile in my shoes before judging me. Hang in there for a few years, speak up for the animals, and let's see how you respond when they call you nasty names. If you can do better, please do. I would welcome you with open arms, if you can show me how to raise awareness and answer the call of the billions of oppressed, sentient beings, without offending the oppressors. Please show me the way!

But popping in every now and then...well anyone can do that. Hang around for a few years, and then let's talk.

Or maybe I just made it all up!

And as far as aggro PMs go, if you have a clear conscience, you shouldn't worry. But when someone from the forums contacts me, off site, to ask my opinion if something they said was offensive towards vegans because someone very aggressively PMed them otherwise, I have a feeling a line was crossed somewhere.

I've acknowledged my sarcasm and snide remarks (which were a response in kind), so to keep telling me I've said something sarcastic is beating a dead horse. To say that what I said was sarcastic and belittling and what Monica said WASN'T sarcastic and belittling is a huge jump, and the only reason I continue to even care about defending myself (and subsequently, others).

[Monica]

especially your post diminishing my veganism.

Are you seriously expecting me to take your comments seriously, when you still insist that I was 'diminishing your veganism' after I explicitly told you I wasn't, and in fact commended you for it?

I don't know who you are, Jade, but publicly picking a fight in a discussion isn't likely to win me over. I will tell you the exact same thing now that I would have told you when I was moderator: If you have any feedback or complaints about me or anyone else, send them/me a private message. They don't belong in a discussion. They are off-topic and rude.

At the beginning of this discussion, I made a plea to everyone to PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, stay on-topic and NOT let this thread degenerate into bickering. I won't tolerate it. It wouldn't matter whether you were insulting me or someone else. It's off-topic and inappropriate.

[Monica]

But to say that posts #201 and #204 weren't completely sarcastic and demeaning out of nowhere is really a twist of perception.

#201 was intended to be facetious. No, it wasn't out of the blue. It was IN RESPONSE to your inappropriate and off-topic public criticism of a person, rather than a topic. See guideline #1. I always called people out on this when I was mod (privately of course...but then, I'm no longer a mod). Publicly criticizing someone - anyone - isn't cool.

I was only half-joking. I truly do welcome your ability to handle this better. Go for it! Show me how to do better! But seriously, if you think you can do better after 5 years, or 33, then please walk a mile in my shoes first.

#204 was entirely sincere, as were pretty much all my other posts.

[Jade]

How funny, Monica, I wonder if you would have had the same responses to me if you knew that I had a previous name on these forums a long time ago, that I thought everyone was aware of the change. I used to be Guenivere, and we had many conversations in PM and email about veganism (pretty sure you knew my real name). Now I'm just a random stranger for your project some anti-vegan, anti-Monica personality upon.

In post #204, you said you weren't being derisive in post #201, but now you are admitting that post #201 was facetious. Backpeddle, gaslight, repeat. What does "I've X for longer than you've been vegan!" and "Hang in there a few years, then you might understand" mean anything other than diminishing my time as a vegan? I'm seriously not understanding what else those words might mean. Maybe you can explain it like I'm five, because I'm apparently really ignorant here.

For what it's worth, THIS WHOLE THREAD has been YOU trying to pick a fight. Ironically, I was taking a stand against that. What happened was I took the brunt of it, haha. Looks like some instant karma for me.

[Monica]

How funny, Monica, I wonder if you would have had the same responses to me if you knew that I had a previous name on these forums a long time ago, that I thought everyone was aware of the change. I used to be Guenivere, and we had many conversations in PM and email about veganism (pretty sure you knew my real name). Now I'm just a random stranger for your project some anti-vegan, anti-Monica personality upon.

My responses would have been the same. I don't retract anything I've said, because I never intended anything negative towards you at all. You misinterpreted, and continue to insist that your misinterpretation was correct, despite me telling you that's not what I meant. Why are you insistent upon misinterpreting?

I do remember our conversations, Guenivere, and am sad to be engaged in discord with you. I remember having a nice connection with you before.

If your intention was to offer feedback, why didn't you just pm me?

In post #204, you said you weren't being derisive in post #201, but now you are admitting that post #201 was facetious.

There's a difference between derisive and facetious. Derisive is negative, insulting, demeaning, condescending. Facetious is playful, tongue-in-cheek.

Backpeddle, gaslight, repeat.

No, not at all. Just trying to clarify my intentions, which were NOT what you thought they were!

What does "I've X for longer than you've been vegan!" and "Hang in there a few years, then you might understand" mean anything other than diminishing my time as a vegan?

It means exactly what I said it means!

I'm seriously not understanding what else those words might mean. Maybe you can explain it like I'm five, because I'm apparently really ignorant here.

OK. Do you know anyone who is elderly? Say, a grandparent in their 70s? Perhaps they experienced arthritis, or osteoporosis, or some other illness that the elderly are prone to get, that you haven't experienced because you are young? If they said "I experienced xyz...and you haven't yet experienced that because you are too young" would you be offended?

For what it's worth, THIS WHOLE THREAD has been YOU trying to pick a fight. Ironically, I was taking a stand against that. What happened was I took the brunt of it, haha. Looks like some instant karma for me.

That's just nuts. I mean really, that's outrageous! My OP was a very respectful, well-documented analysis of Ra's statements about higher 2D consciousness, and I welcomed deep discussion, though none ensued. That is highly insulting, for you to tell me I was picking a fight. Outrageous!!!

[Jade]

Post #6, you already start devaluing the feedback/opinion of others because it doesn't fall within your acceptable parameters of discussion:

 

  Matt1 Wrote:  I am veggie but i believe its possible to reach enlightenment eating meats. The Tibetan master eat pork and yak butter when they used to be in Tibet. Many of whom are believed to have reached rainbowbody and a loving awareness. That being said due to the area its difficult to grow veggies to eat, i think if its possible for you to eat veggie then it will be of a good service but if you really can't go veggie then i don't think it will stop you from moving on through the densities.

Matt1, I would appreciate it if we all kept this discussion to the consciousness of the 2D entities. When speaking of eating animals, let's do so from the perspective of the animals, rather than from the perspective of the human who is eating them. (There are already numerous threads on the topic of eating animals from the human perspective.) Thank you for helping me keep this on-topic!  Smile

According to this, you wanted people in the thread to role play an animal being eaten. I'm not sure that you're going to get a bunch of on-topic posts in regards to that thought experiment.

Also, the definition of facetious, for posterity:

fa·ce·tious
fəˈsēSHəs/
adjective
adjective: facetious

   treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.

You keep saying it was outrageous that you would diminish my time as a vegan, thank you for agreeing with my point. This is why I laughed and even started using "sarcasm" and "facetiousness" myself, because it WAS outrageous.

  I'm seriously not understanding what else those words might mean. Maybe you can explain it like I'm five, because I'm apparently really ignorant here.

OK. Do you know anyone who is elderly? Say, a grandparent in their 70s? Perhaps they experienced arthritis, or osteoporosis, or some other illness that the elderly are prone to get, that you haven't experienced because you are young? If they said "I experienced xyz...and you haven't yet experienced that because you are too young" would you be offended?

So in this analogy, which part is the sickness? The veganism or age? Do I have to be old enough to "get" this "sickness" or do I have to be vegan long enough? How sick do I have to be before my opinion is worth being acknowledged?

[Monica]

Post #6, you already start devaluing the feedback/opinion of others because it doesn't fall within your acceptable parameters of discussion:

No, because it didn't fit into the topic's parameters of discussion. I was trying to keep the discussion ON-topic. The topic of eating meat wasn't on-topic. As I said, there are plenty of other threads discussing that.
 
Please quit twisting my words.

According to this, you wanted people in the thread to role play an animal being eaten. I'm not sure that you're going to get a bunch of on-topic posts in regards to that thought experiment.

It is a valid topic, from the Law of One perspective. If the idea of discussing what it feels like from the perspective of the animal being tortured/killed is distasteful, then what does that say?

Also, the definition of facetious, for posterity:

You left out the rest: synonyms: flippant, flip, glib, frivolous, tongue-in-cheek, ironic, sardonic, joking, jokey, jocular, playful, sportive, teasing, mischievous

I intended it as tongue-in-cheek, joking, playful, half-serious, but much milder than sarcasm.

You keep saying it was outrageous that you would diminish my time as a vegan, thank you for agreeing with my point. This is why I laughed and even started using "sarcasm" and "facetiousness" myself, because it WAS outrageous.

WHY do you keep insisting that I was diminishing your time as a vegan??? That doesn't even make any sense! I mean seriously, why not stop and think about it for a minute? You know I'm championing the animals. Why on Earth would I diminish a VEGAN? The idea is outrageous...ludicrous! That alone should tell you that you are wrong about my intentions.

So in this analogy, which part is the sickness? The veganism or age? Do I have to be old enough to "get" this "sickness" or do I have to be vegan long enough? How sick do I have to be before my opinion is worth being acknowledged?

WOW, you have really twisted my words beyond belief! How many times do I need to repeat to you that I wasn't demeaning the number of years you've been vegan?

That has nothing to do with whether your opinions are 'worth being acknowledged' and everything to do with the HOW you voice your opinions. If you have a personal issue with me or anyone else, the appropriate way to handle it is privately, NOT by taking a discussion thread off-topic.

This has nothing to do with me, by the way. When I was mod, I would have said exactly the same thing, if anyone started a personal criticism of anyone else. And I did so. It simply isn't appropriate. It pollutes the thread, it takes it off-topic, it's hurtful, and it's a violation of the guidelines. Personal criticisms about ANYONE don't belong in ANY thread. That's what the pm system is for.

I'm done here. If you have anything else to say to me personally, you know how to use the pm system.

[Jade]

If you really believed in your PM system, and you thought I was behaving inappropriately, you would have PMed ME long ago and taken this off of the forums. I would assume that you should know better, you having been a mod and all, I don't have that experience. As it stands, everyone loves them some public drama.

You will never sincerely acknowledge being anywhere near a gray area of offending someone, so I must graciously resign this joust as well. PMing you would get me nowhere because then there would be no other witnesses for the extreme gaslighting, so that ain't gonna happen either.

If it's against the rules to say "Maybe you're being a little aggressive" as politely as I know how, then I broke the rules and opened the floodgates. My bad.

The topic of eating meat wasn't on-topic.

 

According to this, you wanted people in the thread to role play an animal being eaten.

It is a valid topic

????

[Monica]

The topic of eating meat wasn't on-topic.

According to this, you wanted people in the thread to role play an animal being eaten.

It is a valid topic

????

Eating meat is off-topic. Being eaten is very much on-topic.

...

[Monica]

If you really believed in your PM system, and you thought I was behaving inappropriately, you would have PMed ME long ago and taken this off of the forums.

That's not my job anymore.

...

[Jade]

Is all not One? Are the eaters not perpetually the ones being eaten?

I must wholeheartedly disagree with you on your perceived lack of gray area between those two topics.

"This topic isn't about dentists. This topic is only about patients who go to the dentist and their experiences. All discussion of dentists is off topic."

If you really believed in your PM system, and you thought I was behaving inappropriately, you would have PMed ME long ago and taken this off of the forums.

That's not my job anymore.

Ah but it's mine?

[Monica]

Is all not One? Are the eaters not perpetually the ones being eaten?

I must wholeheartedly disagree with you on your perceived lack of gray area between those two topics.

"This topic isn't about dentists. This topic is only about patients who go to the dentist and their experiences. All discussion of dentists is off topic."

It is a matter of perspective. There are already about 2 dozen threads devoted to discussing the eating of animals from the humans' perspective. The whole point of this thread was to discuss if from the higher 2D entities' perspective, and in the context of what Ra said about their consciousness. As the creator of this thread, it was my prerogative.

Ah but it's mine?

In this case, yes. You were the one who had an issue with me. I had no issues with you.

[Diana]

And as far as aggro PMs go, if you have a clear conscience, you shouldn't worry. But when someone from the forums contacts me, off site, to ask my opinion if something they said was offensive towards vegans because someone very aggressively PMed them otherwise, I have a feeling a line was crossed somewhere.

What do you mean, if I have a clear conscience? What are you implying? Why would I not have a clear conscience?

If you have an issue with me personally, please report me to the Mod team or you may PM me. 

And, you seem to take no responsibility for any of your own accusatory remarks, yet you are suggesting I crossed a line in a PM to someone else? If it was a PM (private message) to someone else, perhaps you are taking it out of context since the message wasn't sent to you.

[Jade]

I have said everything I wanted to say (and then some). I will not PM either of you. I come here to participate in the public forums. Nothing I've said is private. If you feel like you have things to say to me in private that you don't feel comfortable sharing here, feel free.

Sure, this thread has gone off topic and should be split eventually, I definitely feel that is the case. But do I think anyone has crossed any serious lines or broken any rules? No, I don't. I think if we're not allowed to have this barely-above-heated level of conversation with each other on these forums, we should probably all just assimilate with the Borg right now and get it over with.

I stand by my initial statements. Monica, I feel as if my peace of mind would be improved if you were a little more patient with those who have a different opinion than you. Diana, you involved yourself in the discussion so I brought you into the discussion as well, as it seemed as if it was what you wanted. If I hurt any feelings as this thread has devolved, I am sorry. I was merely responding to my own hurt feelings after invalidation as a vegan, a forum member, Monica's friend, AND then a woman (being called "bro" seemed like a jab to me). If you believe that I have created make-believe feelings around this scenario and the words that were used, then I guess that is the end of the conversation. I am sorry that things had to turn out this way.

[Diana]

I have said everything I wanted to say (and then some). I will not PM either of you. I come here to participate in the public forums. Nothing I've said is private. If you feel like you have things to say to me in private that you don't feel comfortable sharing here, feel free.

Sure, this thread has gone off topic and should be split eventually, I definitely feel that is the case. But do I think anyone has crossed any serious lines or broken any rules? No, I don't. I think if we're not allowed to have this barely-above-heated level of conversation with each other on these forums, we should probably all just assimilate with the Borg right now and get it over with.

I stand by my initial statements. Monica, I feel as if my peace of mind would be improved if you were a little more patient with those who have a different opinion than you. Diana, you involved yourself in the discussion so I brought you into the discussion as well, as it seemed as if it was what you wanted. If I hurt any feelings as this thread has devolved, I am sorry. I was merely responding to my own hurt feelings after invalidation as a vegan, a forum member, Monica's friend, AND then a woman (being called "bro" seemed like a jab to me). If you believe that I have created make-believe feelings around this scenario and the words that were used, then I guess that is the end of the conversation. I am sorry that things had to turn out this way.

Dear Jade,

I do not feel I need to say anything to you in private. I was merely suggesting that personal issues be resolved via PM. 

I don't mind heated discussions at all. This conflict had more to do with personalities, in my opinion, than discussing subjects,

I have no hurt feelings. I do really think that some of what you were hurt over was misinterpreted. I don't think you created "make-believe" stuff; this is hyperbole. I only think you may have taken offense where none was intended.

Regarding a PM I had with another member—you were out of line there. You took something out of context, that wasn't meant for you, which was private, and then implied here publicly that I had something to answer for. The only reason I even sent that PM was to avoid exactly what is happening here in this thread, out of respect.

If we disagree as a group, that's fine. If the discussion gets heated, that's fine too.

[Monica]

invalidation as a vegan,

I find it offensive that you keep insisting that I invalidated you as a vegan, after repeated assurances that I didn't intend that at all. NOW who is invalidating whom? You are choosing to continue thinking that I had a certain intention, when I didn't at all.

a forum member, Monica's friend, AND then a woman (being called "bro" seemed like a jab to me).

Whoa!! My son's middle name is Jade, so I thought you were male. And friendship? I didn't know who you were. How could I know? I don't know why they allow people to change their user names. It's very confusing and disconcerting. Like, I was somehow supposed to intuit that you were a woman and someone I had conversed with previously? Why do you assume it was a jab? That sounds like a preconceived intention to look for insults where none were intended. I could understand you thinking it was a jab, if your profile stated that you were females. But, your profile says 'undisclosed'! You can't expect people to know you're female when your name could be either, and you choose 'undisclosed' on your profile.

If you believe that I have created make-believe feelings around this scenario and the words that were used, then I guess that is the end of the conversation. I am sorry that things had to turn out this way.

Not make-believe. But once it was pointed out that you had misinterpreted my intentions, you could choose to quit hanging on to those misinterpretations.

[AngelofDeath]

/popcorn

Nice to see vegetarians can also argue with eachother.

/stirsthepot

[Monica]

This thread is all about point of view. Would anyone be interested in discussing higher 2D consciousness, from the point of view of the entities, rather than from the point of view of those who objectify them as mere 'lower' beings or things to be used/killed as we wish?

Getting back on-topic, they are mind-body complexes. What do we know about their minds? Their thoughts? Their ability to learn? Their ability to feel emotions? What does this tell us about their consciousness?

...

[isis]

I don't know why they allow people to change their user names.

lol...your username was once "DreamingPeace"

[Monica]

I don't know why they allow people to change their user names.

lol...your username was once "DreamingPeace"  

Mine changed because I became a moderator. The mods all have the name Bring4th_firstname. That's why mine got changed.

[isis]

I don't know why they allow people to change their user names.

lol...your username was once "DreamingPeace"  

Mine changed because I became a moderator. The mods all have the name Bring4th_firstname. That's why mine got changed.

Oh. My bad. I didn't realize that Garry's 1st name is actually Plenum.

[Monica]

Oh. My bad. I didn't realize that Garry's 1st name is actually Plenum.

No, Plenum is a different person. Gary and Plenum are both mods (along with Austin). But Gary sometimes posts as Bring4th_admin also.

[Bluebell]

Garry, not Gary. that's Plen's human name.

[isis]

I don't know why they allow people to change their user names.

lol...your username was once "DreamingPeace"  

Mine changed because I became a moderator. The mods all have the name Bring4th_firstname. That's why mine got changed.

Oh...I didn't realize that Gary's 1st name is actually GLB.

[Monica]

Oh...I didn't realize that Gary's 1st name is actually GLB.

GLB are his initials. GLB is Gary.

[Monica]

Garry, not Gary. that's Plen's human name.

Oh I didn't know that Plenum's name is Garry! So we have a Gary and a Garry! Ah.

[isis]

Oh...I didn't realize that Gary's 1st name is actually GLB.

GLB are his initials. GLB is Gary.

OH...Then I guess what you wrote isn't exactly true. You wrote that "The mods all have the name Bring4th_firstname."

That's too bad that you were forced to change your username, IMO...but I think it's nice that you could now change it back to "DreamingPeace" if you want. I like that we can change our usernames. I'm thinking about losing the "isis" username...(I thought I would keep it forever until the ISIS terrorist group showed up.)

[Monica]

OH...Then I guess what you wrote isn't exactly true. You wrote that "The mods all have the name Bring4th_firstname."

Oh yeah, you're right! Well I think all the others use their first name. Not sure why Gary did his like that.

That's too bad that you were forced to change your username, IMO...but I think it's nice that you could now change it back to "DreamingPeace" if you want. I like that we can change our usernames. I'm thinking about losing the "isis" username...(I thought I would keep it forever until the ISIS terrorist group showed up.)

Well I wasn't 'forced'. I simply followed convention. I wasn't attached to my original name and in fact didn't even really like it. Plus, I only had it a few weeks. I became a mod in the first month or so of the forum's inception.

The Egyptian goddess Isis will endure longer than any terrorist group! That's awful that they co-opted that name, but you can help reclaim it! (or at least that's one possible way to look at it.)

I can see why people might want to change their names. But it's really confusing for the other members who don't know who you are.

[outerheaven]

I'm thinking about losing the "isis" username...(I thought I would keep it forever until the ISIS terrorist group showed up.)

I like it and I think you should keep it...