Ra's Statements About 2D Entities

[Monica]

Someone just sent this to me privately:

Sadly, I don't think you received a single reply from anyone on that thread that really talked about the topic -- the consciousness of 2D entities as described by Ra.

Please forgive my rant - I'm at my limit and wish I could filter all posts/threads that contain the word "vegan" from here on out.

Monica, I don't think it's fair to blame others for the direction of your thread when A) ~70% of the text in the thread is yours and B) it's completely obvious from the OP that you are attempting to get people to follow a script so that you can prove your point. You've been a vegan for a long time so for you it's just "so easy", but as someone who's not yet been a vegan for three years, I can verify that it is difficult to transition even if you have the resources (I was taught to cook when I was young). In fact, dairy still makes it into my diet on occasion. It tastes disgusting for me but when I'm taken out to eat I prefer not to be a pain in the ass and instead just accept what is given.

You treat this issue as far too black and white. I can think of an infinite amount of scenarios where eating meat is not STS at all. Infinite. So to blanket create a scenario where you want people to admit that they are behaving in an STS fashion when they eat meat is not appropriate.

Once you mentioned that you support a group that pays people to watch videos of animal torture in an effort to get them to rethink their ways. To me, you are having people to willingly traumatize themselves so that they agree with you. I find this repulsive to say the least. It's akin to showing child pornography to people in an attempt to convince them not molest kids - it's exploiting to the victims, for one. Another analogy I feel is very accurate is that of the pro-lifer - coming from what they feel is an OBVIOUS moral high ground (not killing babies!) but being so forceful and repulsive in their attempts to persuade people (emotional manipulation, pictures of aborted fetuses, etc) that to most people their views are so harsh and radical that it becomes difficult to empathize. The gap between the common ground gets too wide to cover.

83.12 Questioner: Then you say that there are no cases where those who are service-to-others oriented are using in any way techniques of enslavement that have grown as a result of the evolution of our social structures? Is this what you mean?

Ra: I am Ra. It was our understanding that your query concerned conditions before the veiling. There was no unconscious slavery, as you call this condition, at that period. At the present space/time the condition of well-meant and unintentional slavery are so numerous that it beggars our ability to enumerate them.

Now, I am not accusing you of advocating slavery (it's obvious that you truly consciously advocate the opposite) but if we extrapolate "slavery" to mean "attempting to force others to take a specific course of action based on our desires", I hope you can see what I mean. We all have "sts demons" that we do well if we acknowledge. The fact being that you only have to hit 51% to be harvestable, and anything after that is "extra credit" leaves a bit of gray area for us all to have our future lessons.

Anyway, again, I'm sorry for being harsh Monica. I am very burnt out on these vegan threads that seem to just be a passive-aggressive bully fest. I understand you and Diana feel this is a great place for you to express your passion about being vegan, but I definitely think it's totally the WRONG place to brow-beat people about being STS.

Ra advocates an atmosphere of acceptance and non-judgement, while students of Ra continue to defend their habit of judging other students of Ra from a perceived moral high ground.

No one's perfect.

The whole purpose of this thread was to discuss the consciousness of 2D entities. It's not uncommon for the person who started xyz thread to post a lot on that thread. At any rate, that just proves my point, that there has been very little participation in the actual topic. So you blame me for responding to posts and posting more than others?? Seriously? If more people commented on the actual topic, instead of getting side-tracked, then, duh, we'd have more posts. But no one else has actually explored Ra's comments on 2D consciousness. That's not my fault, Jade.

We pay people to watch slaughterhouse videos. They are NOT forced. They are paid only $1. We are very upfront. We tell them "This is a video of how meat is produced." They can choose to watch it or not.

If killing animals is no big deal, then it should be no big deal to see how it's done. It's reality. It is real.

In your rant, you are completely leaving out the victims. Any time there is oppression, there must be a raising of awareness, if there is any hope of opening the eyes of the public who accepts that oppression. Had no one ever exposed the horrors of slavery, would anyone have bothered to help free the slaves?

I make no apologies for discussing this topic. I have made every effort to keep this thread on-topic. Ra's statements about the consciousness of our younger other-selves is a valid topic.

For the record, I struggled for many years with an addiction to cheese. Giving up meat was easy, but giving up cheese was difficult.

Your last statement is absolutely absurd...to accuse someone of judging others just by discussing a topic. Did you miss the many times we've shown compassion to people who struggled with their taste for meat or medical issues? Apparently you missed those. Bully fest? Seriously? We vegans have never called anyone any names. NEVER. Yet many nasty insults have been flung our way, and allowed to stand. We never retaliated in kind, despite being called very nasty names.

It's impossible for anyone to feel judged by anything I or anyone else could say. I proved this with my Eating Tomatoes is STS thread. Judgment comes from within.

Now, if you or anyone else has any beef about our views, please take it up in the Cognitive Distortions thread, which is the appropriate venue for that. THIS thread is about Ra's comments on 2D consciousness.

[AnthroHeart]

Do you still eat french fries Monica?

[Monica]

Do you still eat french fries Monica?

Only homemade. Never from a fast food place, because they're soaked in rancid animal fat and carcinogenic.

[isis]

Now, if you or anyone else has any beef about our views, please take it up in the Cognitive Distortions thread, which is the appropriate venue for that. THIS thread is about Ra's comments on 2D consciousness.

That thread got closed.

[Monica]

In the context of this discussion, let's examine this:

Once you mentioned that you support a group that pays people to watch videos of animal torture in an effort to get them to rethink their ways. To me, you are having people to willingly traumatize themselves

The video that's shown is real footage, of how animals are treated by the meat industry - the reality of what is being supported when one chooses to eat meat or dairy. It's real.

So, just watching the reality of how their meat is produced, is traumatizing to people?

If this is traumatizing to the 3D humans who are actually causing this, then what does that say about the trauma to the actual victims? How is the consciousness of these higher 2D entities being affected by actually experiencing these horrors, when humans are traumatized just by watching?

[Monica]

Now, if you or anyone else has any beef about our views, please take it up in the Cognitive Distortions thread, which is the appropriate venue for that. THIS thread is about Ra's comments on 2D consciousness.

That thread got closed.

What? Why? That was the place for working out personal issues. Is there a replacement?

[isis]

Now, if you or anyone else has any beef about our views, please take it up in the Cognitive Distortions thread, which is the appropriate venue for that. THIS thread is about Ra's comments on 2D consciousness.

That thread got closed.

What? Why? That was the place for working out personal issues. Is there a replacement?

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...#pid160921

[Minyatur]

It's impossible for anyone to feel judged by anything I or anyone else could say. I proved this with my Eating Tomatoes is STS thread. Judgment comes from within.

Very true, you should not feel bad for raising awareness. Having attachement toward the results of your intent might be counter-productive to you tough. 

Anyone with a minimum of experiences with animals would agree to all you've said about 2D consciousness, so this thread is more open toward discussing polarization than actual 2D conciousness in my opinion. Yes they're a 100% sentient beings and other-selves but they're a part of a much bigger picture and their path outstretch far beyond this Earth.

[Minyatur]

@Jade

I'm gonna say this because I love being the devil's advocate but telling Monica she is wrong in doing what she does is similar to her wanting to tell people they are wrong in eating meat. Other than that I liked your post, just playing the devil's advocate

The message might not speak so much to those who replied but it does not mean it was not meant to be seen. I consider her efforts as not vain and if I become ever vegetarian myself she will have played a part in rendering this calling one of my own. In real life I've never known any vegetarians, so it's not a calling that's been trying to catch my attention so much prior to these threads.

[Monica]

Very true, you should not feel bad for raising awareness.

Thank you!

Having attachement toward the results of your intent might be counter-productive to you tough. 

Agreed! I can honestly say that I have no attachment to outcome. I did at one time, in other areas of my life as well, and learned the hard way that attachment to outcome doesn't work and is counterproductive.

Contrary to what some may think, I'm actually not trying to 'save the world'. That's a naive idea and I have no illusions about that. I simply do as you do...do what I'm called to do, as you say. Any results from my actions aren't my concern.

Anyone with a minimum of experiences with animals would agree to all you've said about 2D consciousness, so this thread is more open toward discussing polarization than actual 2D conciousness in my opinion. Yes they're a 100% sentient beings and other-selves but they're a part of a much bigger picture and their path outstretch far beyond this Earth.

Do you mean polarization of 2D entities or 3D entities? Or do you mean polarization in general?

[Minyatur]

Anyone with a minimum of experiences with animals would agree to all you've said about 2D consciousness, so this thread is more open toward discussing polarization than actual 2D conciousness in my opinion. Yes they're a 100% sentient beings and other-selves but they're a part of a much bigger picture and their path outstretch far beyond this Earth.

Do you mean polarization of 2D entities or 3D entities? Or do you mean polarization in general?

I meant of 3D, relating to each and every actions we do and in this context regarding 2D other-selves. It can then be extended to what path 2D entities will follow resulting from it and wether that is part of a perfect plan or simply failures from our parts. 6D to me seems like more of a black and white world whereas 3D is going back into the grey blending of polarities to understand what is not like us.

[Night Owl]

I like where this thread is going.

@ Monica: Do you consider your fight to be about deaths of animals regarding food only? Because I've read some disgusting things done to animals in so much other ways like seal hunting or how they just kill every animals with no owners at the SPCA on a daily basis that I find almost worst since their isn't even a reason to do that except maybe lack of love/understanding/respect. Since your that good in raising awareness why don't you include them within your fight! Maybe you already do

I honestly don't understand people being violent and murdering animals like that when there is absolutly no purpose. Food may not be a good reason to erybody but at least it's a reason. What do you think is the reason for this kind of behavior? Only selfishness? Are they only expressing their STS polarity or are they simply blinded and lacking consciousness of other consciousness?

[Night Owl]

You seem to understand but why do I get the feeling you still seem to have harsh feelings towards STS.

You have misunderstood, or maybe haven't read enough of my past writing to get where I'm coming from. I will attempt to clarify.

If STS is their choice then let it be. An STS will be STS as long as it needs to and will switch when it's ready. You can't force that.

Agreed! But choices resulting in increased polarity for an STS-oriented entity may result in the opposite for an STO-oriented entity.

Regarding the issue of participating in the intentional control/domination/torture/slaughter of other-selves, that is generally regarded as common behavior for an STS-oriented entity. Intentions do come into play, meaning that we can't conclusively say exactly how much polarizing, or even in which direction, a choice results in, for any given person. But generally, yes, the 2 paths do have characteristics. The STO path tends to have characteristics of acceptance, love, compassion, peace, etc. which the STS path tends to have characteristics of hatred, control, and violence.

I acknowledge that the Logos designed this system with duality, and the STS serves an important function. But choices congruent with the STS path aren't necessarily congruent with the STO path.

My comments about making a choice to unnecessarily participate in the control/domination/torture and slaughter of other-selves, whether human or higher 2D, are intended for those who have a bias towards STO.

Recognizing the function and even importance of the STS path doesn't mean that we must participate in that path/function.

As Q'uo said (paraphrased) Theirs is a bloody path...there are those who prefer it. We are not those. We are of the radiant path.

Didn't Ra said 2D is STS anyway?

Not that I recall, unless you are referring to the quote I posted about polarity starting in 2D. But it can be either STS or STO, as I recall. That is the beginning of polarity. Early 2D entities don't have any polarity.

So loving animals should be equally important as loving those who eat them.

Absolutely! But it is possible to still love someone while disagreeing.

And about your statement on a vegan diet being an easy thing for most people, don't you think it seems just a little irrealistic? Just a little?

No, I don't. It's a simple matter of education.

Maybe the ones around you do have an easier time with being vegan but can you really apply that to the whole world?

No. I imagine the Inuits and other indigenous peoples would have a rough time with it. But I'm not really concerned about them, nor are my comments directed towards them. My comments are directed towards those in a so-called 'spiritual' community who claim to be very highly evolved, from 6D even.

The fact is planet earth is a slave of corporations and their consciousness isn't raised to that level for the most part. Sure everybody have computer but if 90% of them only use it for facebook and stuff like that, what can you expect?

Interestingly, there are a number of large vegan groups on facebook, and we get new members daily. I've met a number of very beautiful, compassionate people through those groups. They've never heard of the Law of One, some are atheists, some are Christians, etc. There are even some Christian vegan groups who find Bible quotes to back up a peaceful diet. And, several of my facebook friends who were meat-eaters, have contacted me to say that they are transitioning to a vegan diet, because of what I posted on facebook.

So facebook can be useful.  

I think most people are still happy not being the ones who do the killing and if you asked them to do it they wouldn't be able to. That says more about their polarity than what their unconscious choice made out of slavery of ideas do.

Agreed. For most people, it's unconscious. They've always eaten meat and never questioned it.

But presumably, Wanderers are waking up and making conscious choices...or at least they are claiming to. Can you see the incongruency of someone saying: "I know I am 6D because I am awake and learned this in my meditation...I know what star system I'm from...I know what my life mission is...and, by the way, I like bacon!"

We do agree on everything. Though the only thing I want to add and this is something for every member of B4 who sees only STS as (evil, hatred, killing, enslavement). Considering STS is somewhere between 40-60% of earth and the elite being not even 1%, as THEY are the ones acting like that what do you think of usual people. What I mean is sure Orion is that big evil master of the galaxy but what do you think that other 50% is doing. What do you think about those people you cross at the supermarket, at the restaurant, at your job that seems pretty negative about themselves, about their life and about people they dislike. I don't see everybody killing themselves and trying to take over the worl by enslavement. Where I'm going with this is that the extent of STS for the majority of 3D goes way beyond EVIL. If you have empathy and put yourself at the place of those people you would realize most of their behavior have to do with love. No matter how you look at it their behavior is always love related. This goes to the extent that even someone murdering someone else is actually having good intentions, really distorded though. That person is still really selfish and blind but in his mind he's probably thinking he's doing the right thing by let's say erradicate planet earth from the kind of people he sees as wrong. Every person will have different reason and I think as wanderers we should see that love within all those negative people. That love being distorted and twisted. I'll let you do your own conclusions on that but what I found myself by empahy with people is that STS in 3D tends to be a lot more than enslavement and evil.

[Shemaya]

If you have empathy and put yourself at the place of those people you would realize most of their behavior have to do with love. No matter how you look at it their behavior is always love related

Just highlighting because this statement is so deeply insightful. We could definitely talk a lot about this point. Thanks for saying that matrix_drumr!

[Monica]

I like where this thread is going.

@ Monica: Do you consider your fight to be about deaths of animals regarding food only? Because I've read some disgusting things done to animals in so much other ways like seal hunting or how they just kill every animals with no owners at the SPCA on a daily basis that I find almost worst since their isn't even a reason to do that except maybe lack of love/understanding/respect. Since your that good in raising awareness why don't you include them within your fight! Maybe you already do

I honestly don't understand people being violent and murdering animals like that when there is absolutly no purpose. Food may not be a good reason to erybody but at least it's a reason. What do you think is the reason for this kind of behavior? Only selfishness? Are they only expressing their STS polarity or are they simply blinded and lacking consciousness of other consciousness?

Well, first of all, I don't really think of it as a fight but more as just raising awareness.

Yes, all animal exploitation/abuse is included in that. Most vegans are involved in myriad projects/causes.

I consider the meat issue to be at the top of the list, because many people who eat meat are shocked and appalled when they hear of abuse of dogs, cats or any other non-farm animals, yet miss the contradiction of what they're doing themselves.

I don't know what the reason is for animal abuse. I agree that it's even worse when it's for no reason at all. Just yesterday I saw a video (which I wish I hadn't!) of some villagers in China who tied an ox to a pole and then kept hacking at his neck while he frantically ran in circles. Half his neck was hacked off and his head about to fall off, yet still he kept running. This went on and on and on, with all the villagers cheering. When at last he fell to his knees, still they hacked, and hacked, and hacked. He must have been struck 100 times before his head finally fell off his neck, and even then his legs kept thrashing. If they were going to eat that ox, why couldn't they at least kill him swiftly? It was obscene. There was absolutely no reason for such blatant cruelty!

I found myself wondering that very same thing...why? I found myself looking at their faces, wondering who these people were and how they got to be so cut off from basic empathy. Were they young 3D souls, who were horribly abused themselves in 2D (as animals), and were now continuing the cycle of abuse? Or were they just of a very low consciousness and truly oblivious to the pain the animal was feeling? How could they think that the animal didn't feel pain? Worse, how could they know that the animal felt pain, but not care? Were their hearts that blocked? Or were they STS oriented? Or were they 3D entities who had simply failed to open their hearts and destined to repeat 3D until they polarized one way or the other?

Obviously, there are plenty of cases of humans committing such atrocities towards other humans too, so the same questions could be asked of them.

[Monica]

I wonder what thoughts were going through her mind? What was she feeling at that moment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLeLQ2EUv_E

[Jade]

@Jade

I'm gonna say this because I love being the devil's advocate but telling Monica she is wrong in doing what she does is similar to her wanting to tell people they are wrong in eating meat. Other than that I liked your post, just playing the devil's advocate

Hence my tongue-in-cheek sentence in the end about students of Ra not judging each other.

The whole purpose of this thread was to discuss the consciousness of 2D entities. It's not uncommon for the person who started xyz thread to post a lot on that thread. At any rate, that just proves my point, that there has been very little participation in the actual topic. So you blame me for responding to posts and posting more than others?? Seriously? If more people commented on the actual topic, instead of getting side-tracked, then, duh, we'd have more posts. But no one else has actually explored Ra's comments on 2D consciousness. That's not my fault, Jade.

You act like discussing 2D consciousness a la Ra is a brand new topic of discussion on these forums or for these forums members. Anyway, it's hard to respond to this set of words because it seems like you've twisted my words to prove your point.

We pay people to watch slaughterhouse videos. They are NOT forced. They are paid only $1. We are very upfront. We tell them "This is a video of how meat is produced." They can choose to watch it or not.

If killing animals is no big deal, then it should be no big deal to see how it's done. It's reality. It is real.

Your justification is logical to you, not so much to me. But that's just my personal point of view, I'm sure plenty of others agree with you that what you are doing is justifiable.

In your rant, you are completely leaving out the victims. Any time there is oppression, there must be a raising of awareness, if there is any hope of opening the eyes of the public who accepts that oppression. Had no one ever exposed the horrors of slavery, would anyone have bothered to help free the slaves?

Actually, I do believe I addressed the victims, by saying that they are being exploited at times, and also by my being a vegan for 3 years. For some reason you have a desire to be "right" and argue your point when you don't even realize that I agree with you a whole bunch. I'm just not fond of your aggressive techniques, and have caught wind of others not responding well, either.

I make no apologies for discussing this topic. I have made every effort to keep this thread on-topic. Ra's statements about the consciousness of our younger other-selves is a valid topic.

I don't believe you should make apologies. I also don't believe you should make others feel like they aren't playing into your game properly (repeating "No one is on topic!!" isn't going to get your way)

For the record, I struggled for many years with an addiction to cheese. Giving up meat was easy, but giving up cheese was difficult.

That's because casein binds to our opioid receptors, though I'm sure you already knew that.

Your last statement is absolutely absurd...to accuse someone of judging others just by discussing a topic.

We're all judging, that's what's happening. We all have things we do well and things we don't do well. We point that out for each other. But we have to remain humble and realize that even though we do well in one area, we may not do as well in other areas.

Did you miss the many times we've shown compassion to people who struggled with their taste for meat or medical issues? Apparently you missed those. Bully fest? Seriously? We vegans have never called anyone any names. NEVER. Yet many nasty insults have been flung our way, and allowed to stand. We never retaliated in kind, despite being called very nasty names.

Yes, you are good with dancing around semantics and avoid any direct insults, but that doesn't mean you're above putting other people's opinions and actions below yours.

It's impossible for anyone to feel judged by anything I or anyone else could say. I proved this with my Eating Tomatoes is STS thread. Judgment comes from within.

I made some allusions to you possibly performing STS actions, and your response here implies that maybe you feel judged. Funny how that works?

Now, if you or anyone else has any beef about our views, please take it up in the Cognitive Distortions thread, which is the appropriate venue for that. THIS thread is about Ra's comments on 2D consciousness.

If you could get off your soapbox for 1/2 a minute, you'd realize I don't have a single beef with your views. Really, just your tone, and a lack of respect that I feel you show to people when they dare to cross you. I was just speaking up for a minority opinion.


In my posts here, I try to express, "I do not prefer the way you handle these discussions." Now, if this was how you phrased/toned your discussions with people here re: eating meat, that would be much more pleasing to my personal sensibilities. "I prefer that others don't eat meat." Instead, the tone is usually that one is WRONG to eat meat, that their actions need to be completely changed to be acceptable.

Again, there is nothing wrong with your passion, and you have obviously helped change some minds here or sway them with your intensity. I am merely expressing a minority opinion and also playing devil's advocate, as I am a long-time vegan but I find these methods quite aggressive.

[Lighthead]

Again, there is nothing wrong with your passion, and you have obviously helped change some minds here or sway them with your intensity. I am merely expressing a minority opinion and also playing devil's advocate, as I am a long-time vegan but I find these methods quite aggressive.

I realize that this particular conversation is between you and Monica, but I, for one, am grateful for Monica's persistence. If it weren't for her tenacity in posting so many threads about this, then I likely would never have come across this thread (when it was posted; not to mention the fact that, if it weren't for her persistence, there would be very few threads to find on the subject) and, subsequently, decided to become a vegan.

You can disagree with her tactics, but don't underestimate the work she has done. She really has 'changed some minds,' as you said.

[Diana]

Again, there is nothing wrong with your passion, and you have obviously helped change some minds here or sway them with your intensity. I am merely expressing a minority opinion and also playing devil's advocate, as I am a long-time vegan but I find these methods quite aggressive.

I realize that this particular conversation is between you and Monica, but I, for one, am grateful for Monica's persistence. If it weren't for her tenacity in posting so many threads about this, then I likely would never have come across this thread (when it was posted; not to mention the fact that, if it weren't for her persistence, there would be very few threads to find on the subject) and, subsequently, decided to become a vegan.

You can disagree with her tactics, but don't underestimate the work she has done. She really has 'changed some minds,' as you said.

Lighthead, it's refreshing to hear your acknowledgment of Monica's efforts.

I agree that Monica's exhaustive work here (and in her part of the world) to bring awareness to the issues of meat-eating are commendable. 

A few thoughts on the matter: 

1. Trying to bring awareness to an issue is not the same as trying to change others' minds. Many here, I think, get this confused. 

2. If someone is trying to bring awareness to an issue, is it correct to say that person is trying to be RIGHT, or is it more accurate to say that person is trying to see if the information was actually understood or acknowledged?

3. In my opinion, there is no ONE WAY to help the damaged 3D world humans have created. Bringing awareness to an issue is one way, and a good one, as it respects free will and leaves choice up to the person who has been made aware of the issue. 

[Lighthead]

Lighthead, it's refreshing to hear your acknowledgment of Monica's efforts.

I agree that Monica's exhaustive work here (and in her part of the world) to bring awareness to the issues of meat-eating are commendable. 

A few thoughts on the matter: 

1. Trying to bring awareness to an issue is not the same as trying to change others' minds. Many here, I think, get this confused. 

2. If someone is trying to bring awareness to an issue, is it correct to say that person is trying to be RIGHT, or is it more accurate to say that person is trying to see if the information was actually understood or acknowledged?

3. In my opinion, there is no ONE WAY to help the damaged 3D world humans have created. Bringing awareness to an issue is one way, and a good one, as it respects free will and leaves choice up to the person who has been made aware of the issue. 

Thanks Diana for your appreciation. AGREED, and thanks for your clarification!

[Monica]

Lighthead: Thanks for your feedback. I'm glad to hear that you've gotten some value out of these discussions!  

Jade: Thanks for your feedback. Aggressive?  Were the abolitionists aggressive? Were their passion and tenacity counterproductive? Hmmm...maybe they should have toned it down. Maybe slavery would still be legal, but at least the slave-'owners' wouldn't have gotten their delicate sensibilities offended (a much more important matter than helping the slaves!). Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I sure don't want to make the same mistake they did!

Ah, well, I started out walking on eggshells, but you weren't around back then. Maybe, after 5 years of discussing this topic here at B4, maybe I've become old and crusty. (I've been here longer than you've been vegan, and that's not even counting the 28 years before that.)

Maybe it's time for me to retire. Can I pass the torch to you?

What these threads need is a fresh, young voice! ...one who won't ever offend anyone. As a relatively new vegan, your perspective is fresh. Maybe you can do a better job!

Will you be a voice for our younger other-selves? Have you studied what Ra has said about them? Do you hear their call? Will you speak up on behalf of those who are crying out but whose call is being ignored? And if you can do so in a better way than I did, I am relieved and appreciative! I will gladly pass the torch to you!

Please let me know how you're doing in 5 years, and then again in 25.  

---

[Monica]

PS. No, I never felt judged by you. And I still don't. 

Also, if there was another thread discussing Ra's statements about 2D consciousness, I must've missed it. I don't recall anyone saying anything about Ra actually said, beyond the flippant "plants and animals are both 2D!" If there is another thread, please let me know.

---

[Jade]

I find it amazingly humorous that you have it in you to deride me for being a vegan for "only three years". What exactly do you want from people? Do you want everyone here screaming in perpetual agony and outrage over the existence of factory farms? Do you want us all to fawn at your feet because your service is so much nobler than the rest of ours? I'm really, officially, at a loss. Thanks for the giant laugh though.

[Monica]

I find it amazingly humorous that you have it in you to deride me for being a vegan for "only three years". What exactly do you want from people? Do you want everyone here screaming in perpetual agony and outrage over the existence of factory farms? Do you want us all to fawn at your feet because your service is so much nobler than the rest of ours? I'm really, officially, at a loss. Thanks for the giant laugh though.

OMG Jade, you have completely misunderstood!!!! groan

I wasn't deriding you AT ALL for being vegan 'only 3 years'!! Not at all. Gosh, I would hope that you'd know I commend you for being vegan!!!

You chastised me for being 'too aggressive' and I was simply making the point that I have been participating in these discussions, consistently, despite people being extremely rude to me, even in the early days when I was walking on eggshells and going out of my way to be considerate and non-judgmental, even when being called outright nasty names, for longer than you've been vegan. I simply stated a fact. If you thought that was derisive, then you read something into it that wasn't there. Please reread my previous post and you'll see that it's not there. My point was NOT to deride you for not being vegan as long as I have! That would be absurd!

My point was simply to suggest that you walk a mile in my shoes before judging me. Hang in there for a few years, speak up for the animals, and let's see how you respond when they call you nasty names. If you can do better, please do. I would welcome you with open arms, if you can show me how to raise awareness and answer the call of the billions of oppressed, sentient beings, without offending the oppressors. Please show me the way!

But popping in every now and then...well anyone can do that. Hang around for a few years, and then let's talk.

...

[Diana]

I find it amazingly humorous that you have it in you to deride me for being a vegan for "only three years". What exactly do you want from people? Do you want everyone here screaming in perpetual agony and outrage over the existence of factory farms? Do you want us all to fawn at your feet because your service is so much nobler than the rest of ours? I'm really, officially, at a loss. Thanks for the giant laugh though.

OMG Jade, you have completely misunderstood!!!! groan

I wasn't deriding you AT ALL for being vegan 'only 3 years'!! Not at all. Gosh, I would hope that you'd know I commend you for being vegan!!!

My point was simply to suggest that you walk a mile in my shoes before judging me.

Jade, regarding "only 3 years": I took Monica's post in this way as well (that you were judging her to be aggressive; and that before judging you might walk a mile in her shoes). 

If you look at your words in the quote above, do you not see them as divisive, sarcastic, and demeaning?

I think Monica is simply trying to get information across, and hoping it is understood. Perhaps she feels weary after all this time, because humans put more importance on their own existence than that of animals. 

It has become somewhat vogue to be vegan or raw vegan today. You are vegan in a friendlier climate now. Monica has been trying to raise awareness for animal rights for approx. 30 years. Perhaps you could allow her a little leeway in your judgments. Those who pave the way always have a more difficult time.

[Jade]

I've been here almost 2 years now, I know that's a flash in the pan to someone with your almighty experience but it's hardly "popping in every now and then". I've even participated in vegan threads quite often, said my piece, even said my piece to you! Some of those posts went unnoticed which is fine. Still, everything in your backpeddling post above is still a way for you to say that you are better than me so therefore I must defer to your opinion. If you think you are being sweet/nice, let me show you where your wording might be misunderstood:

OMG Jade, you have completely misunderstood!!!! groan

Read: I'm wrong and it's irritating to you.

I wasn't deriding you AT ALL for being vegan 'only 3 years'!! Not at all. Gosh, I would hope that you'd know I commend you for being vegan!!!

Nope, you've actually alluded to quite the contrary in your previous posts:

Now, if you or anyone else has any beef about our views

Implication that I'm anti-vegan.

I've been here longer than you've been vegan

Intentionally diminishing the length of time I've been a vegan

Please let me know how you're doing in 5 years, and then again in 25.

Again more derision

You chastised me for being 'too aggressive' and I was simply making the point that I have been participating in these discussions, consistently, despite people being extremely rude to me, even in the early days when I was walking on eggshells and going out of my way to be considerate and non-judgmental, even when being called outright nasty names, for longer than you've been vegan.

Okay, your "point" literally has nothing to do with me or my posts.

If you thought that was derisive, then you read something into it that wasn't there. Please reread my previous post and you'll see that it's not there. My point was NOT to deride you for not being vegan as long as I have! That would be absurd!

Here you are backpeddling more and frankly, gaslighting. Not appreciated.

My point was simply to suggest that you walk a mile in my shoes before judging me. Hang in there for a few years, speak up for the animals, and let's see how you respond when they call you nasty names. If you can do better, please do. I would welcome you with open arms, if you can show me how to raise awareness and answer the call of the billions of oppressed, sentient beings, without offending the oppressors. Please show me the way!

Assumptions that as 3 years a vegan I've never spoken for animal rights. Really? You think I've never been called names? With how prevalent you are suggesting "vegan abuse" is, you would think that I would have experienced it, even in my measly three years. Also, here you imply that you will accept me with open arms upon the condition that I can "do better" than you.

But popping in every now and then...well anyone can do that. Hang around for a few years, and then let's talk.

Another statement belittling my relative "experience".
For some reason I have a feeling that no matter what my tenure, I will never meet your standard of approval.

[Jade]

I find it amazingly humorous that you have it in you to deride me for being a vegan for "only three years". What exactly do you want from people? Do you want everyone here screaming in perpetual agony and outrage over the existence of factory farms? Do you want us all to fawn at your feet because your service is so much nobler than the rest of ours? I'm really, officially, at a loss. Thanks for the giant laugh though.

OMG Jade, you have completely misunderstood!!!! groan

I wasn't deriding you AT ALL for being vegan 'only 3 years'!! Not at all. Gosh, I would hope that you'd know I commend you for being vegan!!!

My point was simply to suggest that you walk a mile in my shoes before judging me.

Jade, regarding "only 3 years": I took Monica's post in this way as well (that you were judging her to be aggressive; and that before judging you might walk a mile in her shoes). 

If you look at your words in the quote above, do you not see them as divisive, sarcastic, and demeaning?

I think Monica is simply trying to get information across, and hoping it is understood. Perhaps she feels weary after all this time, because humans put more importance on their own existence than that of animals. 

It has become somewhat vogue to be vegan or raw vegan today. You are vegan in a friendlier climate now. Monica has been trying to raise awareness for animal rights for approx. 30 years. Perhaps you could allow her a little leeway in your judgments. Those who pave the way always have a more difficult time.

Of course my response was mirroring hers, that's how conversation works.

Her argument is literally "Back when I was nice, people called me names, so now I'm not nice anymore!!!"

And I'm supposed to make excuses for and support that? Also I should accept that relative to her veganism my veganism/opinion is worth less? What the heck.

[Diana]

Her argument is literally "Back when I was nice, people called me names, so now I'm not nice anymore!!!"

And I'm supposed to make excuses for and support that? Also I should accept that relative to her veganism my veganism/opinion is worth less? What the heck.

No. Your above statements are nonsensical (to me anyway). She did not say it was worth less. I think she was just trying to explain her approach, which has changed somewhat, and which you called aggressive.

You do not have to support Monica. But neither do you have to denigrate her. 

[Monica]

Hey go for it, Bro. It's all yours. I'll pop in now and then and see how you're doing.

[Jade]

I'm just sad because I expressed an opinion- that I found your tone, Monica, a bit harsh, and your seeming lack of respect for those who crossed you seemed counter-productive to your goal of changing the opinions of others. I come to these forums under the assumption that if we express our opinions with love and respect, that others will listen, and maybe even alter their behavior based on sound reasoning. This is why the two of you are here to argue for veganism. Fine, that's wonderful, I've done it too. The key words are love and respect. Sometimes, I find it hard to find love and respect in your posts, Monica, especially your post diminishing my veganism. I also struggle to find love and respect when people send aggressive and accusatory PMs to forum members over innocuous posts. The point I've been trying to make is that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Sometimes those flies are still omnivores though, that's why you gotta use the honey.

My biggest BEEF with the two of you, though, is how you have ganged up on me to try to convince me that my emotional reaction is incorrect, that Monica's words don't mean what they mean, that her sarcasm and derision is apparently in my head. I admit I've thrown a couple low blows and snide comments here as the thread has devolved. But to say that posts #201 and #204 weren't completely sarcastic and demeaning out of nowhere is really a twist of perception. I initially expressed that I felt Monica's tone was aggressive and counter productive, and now attempts have been made to say that my opinion is not worth as much as others because of longevity and tenure.

And really, I'll say it again: I don't mind your aggression and passion. If you read my initial posts you would see that I just thought that HERE, on the Law of One forums, to be so aggressive to all these people who are genuinely trying their best every day, is what seems extremely counter productive to me. I'm sure some people called you named and whatever in the past. That doesn't mean you have to punish everyone else in the present. I think most people here are rationally minded and accepting and it really ISN'T a lost cause to promote veganism here. But sarcasm, belittlement, STS accusations and aggro PMs aren't the way I'd go about it.