Density/Dimension clarification

[Lavazza]

Hey all,

I've been unclear on something for far too long and I'm hoping you can set me right on something. I'm not sure how to view the densities in relationship to our own 3rd density, and the universe in general. Allow me to elaborate...

I believe I am correct in understanding a density to be synonymous for the most part with a dimension. So when Ra says in session 6 of Venus:

Ra: I am Ra. The third-density conditions are not hospitable to the life-forms of your peoples. The fifth and sixth dimensions of that planetary sphere are quite conducive to growing/learning/teaching.

We see that Ra uses the terms density and dimension seemingly interchangeably. Also in this statement, to my mind, it is implied that 3rd, 5th and 6th density Venus's are co-existing. Q'uo has often spoken about how 3rd and 4th density Earths are also currently co-existing. So far so good.

But then we run in to statements such as this:

89.9 Questioner: It appears that the end of Ra’s third density coincided with the beginning of this planet’s second density. Is that correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is roughly correct.

So now I am confused. Worded this way, it sounds like the densities co-exist in the same space/time. Is this the case?

Furthermore, we know that on Earth we have three densities (dimensions??) that are co-existing. The mineral kingdom of 1st density, the plant/animal density of 2nd and our own human 3rd density.

So I guess what I'm wondering is what approach makes the most sense in terms of thinking of the densities. Do they all overlap and exist in the same space/time (one after the other in the same universe), or are the independent dimensions that exist in their own space/time (e.g. two versions of Earth, one 3rd d. one 4th d. both existing simultaneously but unseen from each other)?

[Questioner]

Lavazza, I believe they're two entirely different things.

Density is a term that refers to consciousness. The higher the density, the more aware the consciousness is of creation and of how to participate in creation.
First density is the elements - earth, air, fire, water - having some degree of self-awareness as abstract forces.

This begins with first density which is the density of consciousness, the mineral and water life upon the planet learning from fire and wind the awareness of being. This is the first density.

Second density is plant and animal life that can't make a moral choice because they lack individual self-awareness. However, some pets can have individual consciousness emerge out of the pack mind, for instance, as they move towards third density.

Q: Then how does the second density progress to the third?

Ra: I am Ra. The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.

Q: After going over this morning’s work, I thought it might be helpful to fill in a few things. You said that the second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness, or self-awareness. The striving takes place through higher second-density forms being invested by third-density beings. Could you explain what you mean by this?

Ra: I am Ra. Much as you would put on a vestment, so do your third-density beings invest or clothe some second-density beings with self-awareness. This is often done through the opportunity of what you call pets. It has also been done by various other means of investiture. These include many so-called religious practice complexes which personify and send love to various natural second-density beings in their group form.

We are in third density where we can make a moral choice, orienting ourselves to service to others or service to self. Now and then there is an opportunity for third density entities who have made this choice to be harvested to fourth density. If third density entities have not made a strong enough choice either way, they repeat more third density life. Occasionally third density entities can become harvestable even between the times of harvest but this is very rare.

Ra explains that many of the third density souls incarnating on Earth at this time came from other planets.

In our solar system the Veil separates conscious and unconscious parts of third density mind, so that we face a greater challenge and opportunity in our choice than if we could see all the cards in everyone's hand.

Even though we can't fully understand them in third density, we know that fourth density relates to compassionate love, fifth to wisdom, sixth to balance, and seventh and eighth complete an octave of experience involving all entities having full awareness of the Creator's explorations throughout this universe. Wanderers incarnated here from higher densities, miss their homes, and are rather dizzy at the lack of their qualities in third density.

4th and higher densities can see us and each other, but it takes them extra effort to become apparent to us and that usually doesn't serve any purpose, so they don't do it.

I think the first quote is an occasional vocabulary slip-up in the channeling process.

Meanwhile, we have three dimensions of space and one of time. We can see first, second, and third density existence. The densities and dimensions do not directly correspond to each other: dogs lack our moral choice but are not flat! We are dealing with the four dimensions of space/time where time is the constant, and at any moment we have a lot of flexibility to perceive and move through space. Ra discusses the reciprocal time/space where a point in space and/or consciousness can be readily viewed and approached at any time.

I believe I am correct in understanding a density to be synonymous for the most part with a dimension.

That's where we disagree. Now you have a glimpse about my perspective, for what it's worth. It will be interesting to discover what the truth actually is.

[unity100]

since Ra says start of one of their own density coincided with this planet's 2nd, there is time relation in between these. apparently, even if time flows slowly in higher densities, it doesnt make them time independent.

[Questioner]

Ra apparently had a past and has a future. The past included evolution and physical life on Venus as individuals, then as a social memory complex. Their future will include ultimately being harvested to higher densities. What's not clear to me is if that past and future of Ra's timeline is related at all to the time of space/time, or if Ra can see and interact with what to us would be our future.

[AnthroHeart]

I think on some level there are an infinite number of dimensions or realities. You make one choice to do something, the other possibility exists in another dimension. Like multiple worlds existing simultaneously.

[Peregrinus]

The words are indeed interchangeable, though dimension also has a double meaning (height, width, breadth also equate to an understanding of physical dimensions). All densities/dimensions in an octave coexist in the same space/time time/space, as does all of creation, though potentiation/activation may be in different times.

Think of earth; all the densities coexist, and though first second and third are all activated currently, fourth is soon to be activated, and third resuming potentiation. For five hundred or so years the third and fourth will also coexist. This is just another variation as to what is/has been tried in Creation. All experience is desired.

Infinite realities? I understand we coexist in eleven, that being the number which our higher self directs/oversees. There are always, of course, the realities which are manifest as we think of them, but the duration of these realities is as finite as the life of the thought(s).

[Lavazza]

Well I guess my confusion is not unwarranted, as we already have confusion within this thread. So Questioner, your take is that the terms Density and Dimension refers to different things entirely, and Peregrinus, your view is that they are basically interchangeable in the context of metaphysical understandings? Perhaps we could discuss this further, is there a way to know for sure from the L/L literature?

[AnthroHeart]

Infinite realities? I understand we coexist in eleven, that being the number which our higher self directs/oversees. There are always, of course, the realities which are manifest as we think of them, but the duration of these realities is as finite as the life of the thought(s).

This is one place I would disagree. Just personal observation about the duration, a construct we can't really place on the imagination. I've gone back months later, to find continuations. Just like the radio station doesn't stop broadcasting when we change the channel. If everyone, and any consciousness is a creator, there is more basis to the interaction of each. What thought we have, what we ripple out, is forever. We can't be so proud to think that we are the originator of any idea. Then it becomes a discussion of form vs not.

[unity100]

i think the width, height, breadth concept should be differentiated from this version of the concept 'dimension'.

[3D Sunset]

So I guess what I'm wondering is what approach makes the most sense in terms of thinking of the densities. Do they all overlap and exist in the same space/time (one after the other in the same universe), or are the independent dimensions that exist in their own space/time (e.g. two versions of Earth, one 3rd d. one 4th d. both existing simultaneously but unseen from each other)?

Hi Lavazza,

We haven't spoken in a while, I hope all is well with you and your family. What you touch on here is a significant point and one that I think causes much confusion. I will give my perspective, which is a distillation and integration of the words of Ra, Dewey B. Larson's Reciprocal System of Theories (RST), and some modern physics thrown in. I will omit reference to keep the post more succinct.

First, your question touches on two different aspect of reality: Space/Time (S/T) and Time/Space (T/S) existence, that need to be understood.

A little background is in order. Per both Ra and RST, there are three independent dimensions of both time and space. They both co-exist and overlay each other. S/T can be thought of as a perspective for observing these six dimensions in which space has three orthogonal vector dimensions of three-space that we may call x,y,z, (or length, width and height) and time is a scalar. Similarly, T/S is a perspective for observing the six dimensions which uses orthogonal vector dimensions of three-time (that I call chi, psi and omega), and space is a scalar. The fact that scalars are used is significant, because scalars are unit-less, which is important mathematically since the resulting units s/t (literally, space divided by time) and t/s (time divided by space) are respectively places in space and places (for lack of a better word) in time.

What is interesting is that although s/t and t/s co-exist, they are actually reciprocals of one anther in every aspect. Existence in t/s is the antithesis of existence in s/t: Existence in s/t is composed of matter and in t/s is composed of antimatter, (where matter and antimatter are reciprocal particles created simultaneously). Note also that, due to the reciprocal nature of s/t and t/s, if matter is close together in three space, then it must be vastly separated in three-time. Similarly, where anti-matter is close together in three time, it is vastly separated in three-space. Thus you have the material components of s/t existent but not recognizable in t/s, and vice-versa.

Densities, on the other hand represent the movement of consciousness toward the one creator. Per Ra, all work in consciousness is performed from a basis of free will. I have come to conclude that the free will only holds sway in s/t. Thus all work in consciousness is performed though a s/t activated body. We currently have our 3rd density bodies activated, and in 3D we also have the presence of the veil, which, interacting with our free will provides us the opportunity to select polarization between STO and STS. In 4D, we will have our 4D body activated in s/t, but will lose the veil. This 4D body will be composed of matter that exists in s/t, but it may well be of some component parts that we cannot currently detect. Think here about the various bandwidths of electromagnetic radiation that we know of in s/t. We would be wrong to conclude that only radiation that we can see, exists, since radio waves, infrared waves, ultraviolet waves, etc. are now well known to us, even though they are invisible. Recall also, that modern physics is currently of the opinion that only about 10% of matter is visible to us by any known methods. The rest, they simply refer to as "dark matter". Additionally, they also refer to "dark energy" which represents a equivalent of 9 times more matter than the visible matter and dark matter combined. Thus, we are currently aware of only about 1% of all the matter and energy that exists in s/t.

So we have two different activities going on simultaneously. There is s/t based learning and advancing in consciousness (up through the densities), and there is additional s/t based existence that we cannot detect with our 3D bodies. Furthermore, there is t/s based existence influencing and supporting of the s/t illusion.

Thus my answer to your question would be that the various densities exist in overlapping layers of s/t all existing simultaneously in the same four s/t "dimensions" (length, width, height, and scalar time) which includes more levels of existence (ambiguously, also referred to as "dimensions") than we can experience as 3D s/t beings.

There is much more to be said on all of this, but for what it's worth, this is an overview of my current understanding of the situation.

Your humble servant,

3D Sunset

[Peregrinus]

I would suggest that 3D answered this in a metaphysically quantatative manner (there is only such a thing because I think there is , though I will reply to two other specific quotes below.

Just like the radio station doesn't stop broadcasting when we change the channel. If everyone, and any consciousness is a creator, there is more basis to the interaction of each. What thought we have, what we ripple out, is forever. We can't be so proud to think that we are the originator of any idea. Then it becomes a discussion of form vs not.

How do you know the radio station does not stop playing when you cannot confirm it so? This applies to the old saying "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?". Interestingly enough, quantum physics supports the idea that the tree does not make a sound, and as such the radio station only plays music etc... if someone is listening...

As for resuming/continuing thoughts, have you not just done this, or have you been thinking of this discussion for the entire time, without thought of anything else, since you last wrote your response?

i think the width, height, breadth concept should be differentiated from this version of the concept 'dimension'.

Agreed.

[Questioner]

Perhaps we could discuss this further

I'm up for that!

is there a way to know for sure from the L/L literature?

If there is, 3D Sunset and Peregrinus likely have a more informed take on it than me. I believe they've both studied this topic far more extensively than I have. I defer to their expertise. Thanks, 3DS and P, for your explanations. This is a huge field of study and I wonder if you might be willing to do a walkthrough of some of the concepts in more detail, such as the absence of free will in t/s and the 11 fold nature of existence... just two of the concepts here that are real mind-twisters for me.

[Peregrinus]

are respectively places in space and places (for lack of a better word) in time.

Perhaps "points" might be a more suitable word in both instance? points in space and points in time.

I have come to conclude that the free will only holds sway in s/t.

If I may ask brother, how/why did you come to this determination, for does not the spirit, when in t/s, consult the Akash and select the next incarnate experience based upon the desire(s) of the spirit? Is not free will acted upon in this instance, or do you think this is automated?

Recall also, that modern physics is currently of the opinion that only about 10% of matter is visible to us by any known methods. The rest, they simply refer to as "dark matter". Additionally, they also refer to "dark energy" which represents a equivalent of 9 times more matter than the visible matter and dark matter combined. Thus, we are currently aware of only about 1% of all the matter and energy that exists in s/t.

Is this is not due to the scientific method of applying a label to that which is not understood, so that it appears it is? Faith and understanding of the Creator is not scientific, and as such cannot be bottled in a lab... Written on a blackboard perhaps, but not bottled...

[AnthroHeart]

I don't like to debate, since you may very well be right. I have no way of knowing.

How do you know the radio station does not stop playing when you cannot confirm it so? This applies to the old saying "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?". Interestingly enough, quantum physics supports the idea that the tree does not make a sound, and as such the radio station only plays music etc... if someone is listening...

As for resuming/continuing thoughts, have you not just done this, or have you been thinking of this discussion for the entire time, without thought of anything else, since you last wrote your response?

[3D Sunset]

Perhaps "points" might be a more suitable word in both instance? points in space and points in time.

Yes, quite. Thank you.

If I may ask brother, how/why did you come to this determination, for does not the spirit, when in t/s, consult the Akash and select the next incarnate experience based upon the desire(s) of the spirit? Is not free will acted upon in this instance, or do you think this is automated?

In retrospect, the phrase "free will only holds sway in s/t" is stronger than I intended, but not much so. Clearly there is a purpose for and substantive difference between existence in s/t versus t/s. Although I would agree that Free Will is involved in t/s existence, it appears to take the form of selecting experiences to better allow the individual to further his/her spiritual progress through free will choices to be made in s/t.

Here is one pertinent quote:

However, while in space/time it is not possible to determine the course of events beyond the incarnation but only to correct present imbalances. In time/space, upon the other hand, it is not possible to correct any unbalanced actions but rather to perceive the imbalances and thusly forgive the self for that which is.

The decisions then are made to set up the possibility/probabilities of correcting these imbalances in what you call future space/time experiences. The advantage of time/space is that of the fluidity of the grand overview. The advantage of space/time is that, working in darkness with a tiny candle, one may correct imbalances.

During the review and planning, all imbalances are noted, and plans made to allow for their correction. It is only during the s/t existence, however that the imbalances may be corrected through free will choices. I believe that this distinction continues in the higher densities beyond 3D.

Put another way, t/s is used to set the stage for the actors in s/t to make free will decisions. For example, if an actor in an impromptu play finds a gun on the stage, the resulting scene will likely be much different than if they found a teddy bear. Still, upon finding the gun, the actor uses free will to determine what to do with it (shoot another actor, shoot the self, kill a bear, provide food, use it for improving hand/eye coordination, or perhaps use it as a hammer or paperweight). I suspect that the higher self finds no end of humor in seeing how we misuse the props they have strewn about for us.

What is not so evident is how this plays out in higher densities, where, in the absence of the veil, memories of past lives and the associated life reviews are available. I would suggest though, that the same dynamic is at play. That is to say that spiritual progression is only accomplished through free will decisions made in s/t. The full impact of those decisions however, is only evident when viewed in t/s.

Is this is not due to the scientific method of applying a label to that which is not understood, so that it appears it is? Faith and understanding of the Creator is not scientific, and as such cannot be bottled in a lab... Written on a blackboard perhaps, but not bottled...

Indeed, I agree with you. I was just pointing out that even modern science acknowledges that the vast majority of matter and energy in the known universe is currently invisible to us. Per Ra, this is by design and in spite of the most determined efforts of 3D humans, there will always remain at least some portion of "the universe" (i.e., s/t) that remains so. Note that this allows a slightly different interpretation of Lavazza's second quote than is typical. The more common assumption being that the higher "dimensions" are in t/s. But with this interpretation, one can see that the higher "dimensions" that Ra speaks of may well be within s/t.

3D Sunset

[thefool]

Bashar had a simple explanantion about the density and the dimwnsions the other day. He said we live in 3rd Density and 4th Dimension (length, height, width and time) and we are moving to 4th Density and 5th Dimension.

That helped me a lot and also explained why some people say we are moving to 4th and other to 5th.

[Lavazza]

We haven't spoken in a while, I hope all is well with you and your family. What you touch on here is a significant point and one that I think causes much confusion. I will give my perspective, which is a distillation and integration of the words of Ra, Dewey B. Larson's Reciprocal System of Theories (RST), and some modern physics thrown in. I will omit reference to keep the post more succinct.

Hello 3D, it has been a while! Glad to see you come out of hibernation once in a while All is well on my end, just busy busy busy preparing to move my small brood to a new city this weekend. I trust you and yours are also doing well.

I believe I now understand the manner in which you are describing the densities and dimensions, although it leaves me with a few strands of confusion that we can possibly work through. But first let me restate in my words what I understand you to have said to ensure we are on the same page. Essentially in our universe we have one space/time dimension. That is, all of creation spawning from the Big Bang (Octave?) is, as far as we know, all that there is, and within it is contained all s/t and t/s densities. We exist in the lower half of this seven density setup and are only aware of ours, second and first densities, however there are other celestial bodies that are invisible to us that may be 4th, 5th or 6th density. Since it all exists in our same space/time dimension, should a planet or entity move from one density to another it would happen in a linear fashion over the course of time. We also have the reciprocal dimension to space/time that is time/space, a bizarre Alice in Wonderland world where cats chase dogs, John Lennon couldn't play guitar well, and... no just kidding. Time/space being the balance to space/time in that it contains three dimensions of time and one of space (that is very hard to visualize!). This being where life reviews and planning takes place.

So assuming this is mostly correct, let me outline a few question marks.

- When Carla or other channels speak about there being X numbers of Earth existing as 3rd, 4th or other density numbers, what really is being spoken about are the states of potentiality / activation? In much the same was as we entities contain all seven chakras at the same time, and some may or may not be activated, so does a planet essentially contain the potential to express any density, but typically will just do one at a time and in linear order per spiritual evolution?

- Ra spoke of Venus having inhospitable 3rd density conditions to life such as we are familiar. Ra also states that it later became a 4th density planet, then a 4th/5th, then a 5th, and now presently a 5th/6th. (session 89). So what confuses me about this statement is that "the third-density conditions are not hospitable to the life-forms of your peoples. The fifth and sixth dimensions of that planetary sphere are quite conducive to growing/learning/teaching." (session 6) If a planetary entity moves out of 3rd density activation and in to higher densities, then wouldn't that sphere be invisible to us, being that we are 3rd density? It should fall in to the category of "dark matter" as our science calls it, and not be visible to us, much as we metaphysics fans assume that dark matter comprises other higher density matter.

- I may be blending material I have read from L/L Research and material I've picked up elsewhere (mostly Bashar) in my memory, but I seem to recall there being a point made about vibratory rates and the levels of density. I was going to include a fascinating quote but now I cannot find it... Basically Ra explaining how they appeared to the Egyptians as golden beings, invisible from the waist down as they lowered their vibrational rate to the pace of 3rd density space/time. This is not in conflict with what we have discussed so far, but I have not heard mention of vibratory rates relating to densities and just want to make sure I am understanding that correctly (for it sounds so very much like a dimension quality).

- Back to supposed dimensions quickly. I have read about how String theory predicts an 11 dimension universe. I know there is some debate about the correctness of String theory, but is there any reconciliation with Larson's theories, or the Ra material there? Just the other day I watched a short video of Carl Sagen explaining a Tesseract shape and how that would be representative of 4 dimensional space. So do you think there actually is a real, tangible 4th dimesion to space, or is a Tesseract simply a mathematical expression, not actually physically possible?

What is interesting is that although s/t and t/s co-exist, they are actually reciprocals of one anther in every aspect. Existence in t/s is the antithesis of existence in s/t: Existence in s/t is composed of matter and in t/s is composed of antimatter, (where matter and antimatter are reciprocal particles created simultaneously). Note also that, due to the reciprocal nature of s/t and t/s, if matter is close together in three space, then it must be vastly separated in three-time. Similarly, where anti-matter is close together in three time, it is vastly separated in three-space. Thus you have the material components of s/t existent but not recognizable in t/s, and vice-versa.

This is interesting, I had not heard about this before. So things that are close in s/t and far apart in t/s? I am having trouble understanding this, possibly due to my difficulty of conceptualizing space as a scalar... but how can anything be "far apart" if there are not more than one dimension of space? Without those extra dimensions everything would sit on one single point (not even a line!) I have read that thoughts and dreams are time/space constructs, and if this is true then I *think* I can understand how this works, since I know from dream experience that I can move around, much as I can imagine doing the same thing if I close my eyes and think about it. Is this what you mean? But I can also be next to someone, and imagine myself being close to them at the same time, but perhaps I am paddling too far down the river after it has forked away from what you intended to convey.

In retrospect, the phrase "free will only holds sway in s/t" is stronger than I intended, but not much so. Clearly there is a purpose for and substantive difference between existence in s/t versus t/s. Although I would agree that Free Will is involved in t/s existence, it appears to take the form of selecting experiences to better allow the individual to further his/her spiritual progress through free will choices to be made in s/t.

Indeed, I think it is best to say that spiritual evolution is only possible in space/time. Freewill I believe exists at all levels, it being the first distortion of the One. For what it is worth, I have read the two books by Michael Newton, a hyno-therapist who investigated the time/space world by relaxing his patients to the point of remembrance. Many a soul he describes being completely reluctant to re-take incarnation after a particularly hard life. Refusing to do so for vast stretches of time- and never being forced to at any point. Guides and friends would always recite the wisdom of going back in to space/time, and probably always make a winning case in the end. But the point is they are never forced- free will is paramount. Other entities some times take "vacations" on uninhabited 2nd density planets by projecting themselves there with thought. They probably appeared there as ghosts to our understanding. And others still simply spent time in their own time/space world, playing, learning, resting, bathing in the light of God and enjoying the companionship of those in their soul group, recounting the joys and sorrows of the parts they have played together. Everyone goes back for more lives though. As Newton puts it, it's not so much of a "you must do this" scenario as "I don't want to be left out of the party" one. Afterall, are we not all the One? And thus not our main purpose for doing any of this to learn more about us?

[unity100]

I have come to conclude that the free will only holds sway in s/t.

If I may ask brother, how/why did you come to this determination, for does not the spirit, when in t/s, consult the Akash and select the next incarnate experience based upon the desire(s) of the spirit? Is not free will acted upon in this instance, or do you think this is automated?

probably because there isnt a veil in time/space in between subconscious and conscious, and the desires act more strongly upon the entity. in space/time, conscious part of the mind is more free from subconscious desires, and can choose to go against those. in time/space this would probably be much harder.

[3D Sunset]

Hello 3D, it has been a while! Glad to see you come out of hibernation once in a while All is well on my end, just busy busy busy preparing to move my small brood to a new city this weekend. I trust you and yours are also doing well.

Indeed, all is well here too. Godspeed on the move, this weekend is shaping up to busy on several fronts.

Before I continue our discussion though, please let me profess that I speak with absolutely no authority on this or any subject related to the LOO. What I am presenting is my distillation and partial reconciliation of some of the Ra material with its reference sources and a little modern physics thrown in. Although it is relatively sound in some areas, it is embarrassingly weak in others. Ultimately, I am absolutely certain that it is completely wrong as is everything that we try to explain in 3D. So let the reader be ware, and do not hesitate to ignore portions that do not resonate.

...That is, all of creation spawning from the Big Bang (Octave?) is, as far as we know, all that there is, and within it is contained all s/t and t/s densities.

Not to quibble over words, but I would say "in it is contained all the physical dimensions of space and time". The densities that make up the Octave having been established prior to the Octave's creation, are measures of the spiritual progress of the m/b/s contained within the creation. As a crude analogy, consider the universe as analogous to the school, the m/b/s within it, the students, their densities representing the grades within the school. As they advance within the school, the students are able to use more and more of the school's facilities. Note that the existence of the grades (their number and character and lessons to be learned), and the testing that would be performed to allow promotion from one grade to another were all in existence before the school. Note also that this clearly indicates that there is "something" which is greater than our universe.

We exist in the lower half of this seven density setup and are only aware of ours, second and first densities, however there are other celestial bodies that are invisible to us that may be 4th, 5th or 6th density.

Indeed.

Since it all exists in our same space/time dimension, should a planet or entity move from one density to another it would happen in a linear fashion over the course of time.

Presumably so, but I have not seen that stated as such, except for m/b/s or sub-sub-Logos. As for the Logos, and sub-Logos (such as our planet or our sun), I do not see that linear progression is required. Also recall that for m/b/s, progression through densities could be very rapid.

We also have the reciprocal dimension to space/time that is time/space, a bizarre Alice in Wonderland world where cats chase dogs, John Lennon couldn't play guitar well, and... no just kidding. Time/space being the balance to space/time in that it contains three dimensions of time and one of space (that is very hard to visualize!). This being where life reviews and planning takes place.

If you feel up to a little reading, I would point you now to the thread on Dewey B. Larson. We spent some time exploring ways to visual t/s and its relation to s/t. I will again loudly profess my ignorance about all of this. I made an attempt to express my understanding of the material, but ultimately feel that I am barely qualified to fill the role of learn/teacher on these subjects, certainly not the role of teach/learner that I so poorly performed in the aforementioned thread.

- When Carla or other channels speak about there being X numbers of Earth existing as 3rd, 4th or other density numbers, what really is being spoken about are the states of potentiality / activation? In much the same was as we entities contain all seven chakras at the same time, and some may or may not be activated, so does a planet essentially contain the potential to express any density, but typically will just do one at a time and in linear order per spiritual evolution?

Here again I humbly ask your patience as I pick at your words. Although we do have seven chakras that may be in various states of activation or blockage in any density, I see it rather as our seven bodies that move between activation and potentiation as we move through s/t densities. The same can be said for a planet, with the caveat that a planet may have multiple bodies in activation simultaneously (I am of the opinion that only one body of a m/b/s complex may be activated at given time, but I am not absolutely convinced of this).

As to the spiritual evolution of a planet, here we come back to distinctions between Logos / sub-logos and sub-sub-logoi. The planet is not evolving spiritually, per se. Rather, it is a physical manifestation of a part of the Logos, whose job it is to support the spiritual advancement of m/b/s complexes. To further my earlier analogy, the school does not move through grades. Rather it contains the rooms in which students may advance, each such room being intricately designed to provide the right environment in which to learn the lessons being taught.

If a planetary entity moves out of 3rd density activation and in to higher densities, then wouldn't that sphere be invisible to us, being that we are 3rd density? It should fall in to the category of "dark matter" as our science calls it, and not be visible to us, much as we metaphysics fans assume that dark matter comprises other higher density matter.

Again, as I see it, the purpose of the Logos and sub-logos is not to advance spiritually within the densities (that is to say that a 2D planet is not at 2D spiritual advancement, it's "being-ness" as a planet may well, however, be part of its spiritual path), but rather to provide the environment for m/b/s to advance. A truly STO activity, by the way.

Basically Ra explaining how they appeared to the Egyptians as golden beings, invisible from the waist down as they lowered their vibrational rate to the pace of 3rd density space/time.

I think you are combining two different quotes in your mind, here. If I may be of some assistance:

Questioner: I think this might be an appropriate time to include a little more background on yourself, possibly information having to do with where you came from prior to your involvement with planet Earth, if this is possible.

Ra: I am Ra. I am, with the social memory complex of which I am a part, one of those who voyaged outward from another planet within your own solar system, as this entity would call it. The planetary influence was that you call Venus. We are a race old in your measures. When we were at the sixth dimension our physical beings were what you would call golden. We were tall and somewhat delicate. Our physical body complex covering, which you call the integument, had a golden luster.

In this form we decided to come among your peoples. Your peoples at that time were much unlike us in physical appearance, as you might call it. We, thus, did not mix well with the population and were obviously other than they. Thus, our visit was relatively short, for we found ourselves in the hypocritical position of being acclaimed as other than your other-selves. This was the time during which we built the structures in which you show interest.

Questioner: The second question is: Paul has also received information that there were other beings aiding in the construction of the pyramids, but that they were not fully materialized in the third density. They were materialized from their waist up to their heads but were not materialized from their waist down to their feet. Did such entities exist and aid in the construction of the pyramids, and who were they?

Ra: I am Ra. Consider, if you will, the intelligent infinity present in the absorption of living-ness and being-ness as it becomes codified into intelligent energy, due to the thought impressions of those assisting the living stone into a new shape of being-ness The release and use of intelligent infinity for a brief period begins to absorb all the consecutive or interlocking dimensions, thus offering brief glimpses of those projecting to the material their thought. These beings thus beginning to materialize but not remaining visible. These beings were the thought-form or third-density visible manifestation of our social memory complex as we offered contact from our intelligent infinity to the intelligent infinity of the stone.

This is not in conflict with what we have discussed so far, but I have not heard mention of vibratory rates relating to densities and just want to make sure I am understanding that correctly (for it sounds so very much like a dimension quality).

If the above are the appropriate quotes, I do not see the reference to "lowering vibrational rate" that you referred to. That said, I am certain that some physical change (call it vibrational rate or something else) is necessary for a 6D entity to be viewed by 3D entities. If this is what you mean by "dimensional quality", then I agree.

- Back to supposed dimensions quickly. I have read about how String theory predicts an 11 dimension universe. I know there is some debate about the correctness of String theory, but is there any reconciliation with Larson's theories, or the Ra material there? Just the other day I watched a short video of Carl Sagen explaining a Tesseract shape and how that would be representative of 4 dimensional space. So do you think there actually is a real, tangible 4th dimesion to space, or is a Tesseract simply a mathematical expression, not actually physically possible?

Reconciling RST with String Theory is not straightforward, but is not, I am certain, a lost cause either. Note that RST describes a set of significant interrelationships between the six dimensions that are not required or described in String Theory. I suspect that if physicists and mathematicians much smarter than I were to explore this, they would likely find that the two are congruent.

This is interesting, I had not heard about this before. So things that are close in s/t and far apart in t/s? I am having trouble understanding this, possibly due to my difficulty of conceptualizing space as a scalar... but how can anything be "far apart" if there are not more than one dimension of space? Without those extra dimensions everything would sit on one single point (not even a line!) I have read that thoughts and dreams are time/space constructs, and if this is true then I *think* I can understand how this works, since I know from dream experience that I can move around, much as I can imagine doing the same thing if I close my eyes and think about it. Is this what you mean? But I can also be next to someone, and imagine myself being close to them at the same time, but perhaps I am paddling too far down the river after it has forked away from what you intended to convey.

I did not say that things that were close in s/t were far apart in t/s. I said that things that are close in 3-space are far apart in 3-time. This is due to the reciprocal natures of time and space. What creates the stages of s/t and t/s are the mappings of 3-time into scalar time(in s/t), and 3-space into scalar space (in t/s).

Again, I would refer you to the RST thread for more investigation. Suffice it to say for now, that in s/t, time ("now") is a scalar which represents the projection/compression of the three cardinal time coordinates of 3-time onto one unit-less scalar point. The same can be said of space in t/s.

Indeed, I think it is best to say that spiritual evolution is only possible in space/time. ...Afterall, are we not all the One? And thus not our main purpose for doing any of this to learn more about us?

Resolved, my good friend.

Your humble servant,

3D Sunset

[Questioner]

I like how this conversation is going. For those who haven't seen this before:

Although I would agree that Free Will is involved in t/s existence, it appears to take the form of selecting experiences to better allow the individual to further his/her spiritual progress through free will choices to be made in s/t.

That way of putting it helps me understand better. Just before you got to the actor & props analogy, I thought of an athletic analogy. s/t would be like the time we are making a choice of what will be the next activity at the recreation center. Someone who needs to improve their arm coordination and teamwork skills might choose to play basketball. Someone who wants to work on his or her individual endurance might choose a running path. t/s would be like the time we are in a particular game and need to play by its rules, if we're to enjoy the challenge and benefit from it. The point of basketball is lost if the player just strolls over to the basket with a stepladder. If the runner leaves the path for a shortcut, the endurance training value is lost.

As far as the stage metaphor goes, s/t would be like having the script in hand. With a quick flip, any portion of the scenario may be quickly understood in its abstract nature. t/s would be the performance of the entire production. Although the start and end of the play may be 1/4" apart in the script, all pages held in the hand at once, they could be hours apart on stage. I would prefer to believe that the script is improv notes to be filled in by the creativity of the players, rather than predefined lines or predestined roles.

[3D Sunset]

As far as the stage metaphor goes, s/t would be like having the script in hand. With a quick flip, any portion of the scenario may be quickly understood in its abstract nature. t/s would be the performance of the entire production. Although the start and end of the play may be 1/4" apart in the script, all pages held in the hand at once, they could be hours apart on stage. I would prefer to believe that the script is improv notes to be filled in by the creativity of the players, rather than predefined lines or predestined roles.

Hi Questioner,

I'm enjoying the discussion as well, and thank you for your feedback.

File this under "For what it's worth": To me, the stage metaphor works best for an impromptu play, thus allowing our s/t performance to require free will decisions of the actors. The more in touch we are with our higher self and greater calling, the better we understand the basic story of the play and the roles of the other characters. Still, what we do in each act is a function of our real time decisions in the moment, and then influence how the stage will be set for future scenes (perhaps repeating them over and over until we get it right).

I think of the t/s actions before incarnation as drafting the overall script and characters (along with multiple plot lines, characters, etc depending upon how things go), then setting up the stage and the props for each scene, as it were. The t/s actions after incarnation involve watching a video of each scene then discussing why each decision was made, the impact it had on us and those around us, and the additional lessons that need to be learned based upon this.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[Questioner]

3Ds, the way you put this helps me see a way to integrate the Law of One material with another idea I've found very comforting. I like the idea that after death, a person experiences a "life review" in which they comprehend the full effect of their actions and decisions on other people, from the point of view of the other lives they touched. This is then a basis for decisions about how the next incarnation can be selected to provide opportunities for balance and growth. Your posts help me see how that life review process could be a t/s activity, reviewing the way the previous role was played and making choices about the next role's scenarios for further improvisation.

[3D Sunset]

3Ds, the way you put this helps me see a way to integrate the Law of One material with another idea I've found very comforting. I like the idea that after death, a person experiences a "life review" in which they comprehend the full effect of their actions and decisions on other people, from the point of view of the other lives they touched. This is then a basis for decisions about how the next incarnation can be selected to provide opportunities for balance and growth. Your posts help me see how that life review process could be a t/s activity, reviewing the way the previous role was played and making choices about the next role's scenarios for further improvisation.

Hello again Questioner,

In reality, no integration is necessary, for the "life review" is already an integral part of the Law of One:

Thus the time/space or metaphysical experience is that which is very finely tuned and, although an analog of space/time, lacking in its tangible characteristics. In these metaphysical planes there is a great deal of what you call time which is used to review and re-review the biases and learn/teachings of a prior, as you would call it, space/time incarnation.

The extreme fluidity of these regions makes it possible for much to be penetrated which must needs be absorbed before the process of healing of an entity may be accomplished. Each entity is located in a somewhat immobile state much as you are located in space/time in a somewhat immobile state in time. In this immobile space the entity has been placed by the form-maker and higher self so that it may be in the proper configuration for learn/teaching that which it has received in the space/time incarnation.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[Lavazza]

Hey guys,

I also "love this thread", if I may say! The move has gone well, and today is the first day our internet has been on (San Francisco is lovely by the way, I would recommend a visit, or a move, to anyone).

3D, there is much you have written that begs follow up, but due to my limited time tonight I will simply quote the following for further discussion (for now):

If a planetary entity moves out of 3rd density activation and in to higher densities, then wouldn't that sphere be invisible to us, being that we are 3rd density? It should fall in to the category of "dark matter" as our science calls it, and not be visible to us, much as we metaphysics fans assume that dark matter comprises other higher density matter.

Again, as I see it, the purpose of the Logos and sub-logos is not to advance spiritually within the densities (that is to say that a 2D planet is not at 2D spiritual advancement, it's "being-ness" as a planet may well, however, be part of its spiritual path), but rather to provide the environment for m/b/s to advance. A truly STO activity, by the way.

Indeed! But I think you mis-read me here. What I intended to query was more on the lines of putting together the idea that the universe is mostly (99%) composed of matter that is invisible to us (which we presume to be higher density matter, be they planets, M/B/S complexes, or et cetera AND the notion that we actually have, according to Ra, an example of a higher density celestial body in our own solar system, that being Venus.

Ra suggests that Venus is presently at the 5th/6th density level. If this is so and we maintain that all densities are currently co-existing in our same s/t universe, then it sort of tosses out the idea stated above, that higher density planets (at least) are dark matter in nature. Rather, it seems to suggest that the planet we observe now is 5th/6th density, but since one of the characteristics of a 5th or 6th density entity is non-physicality, the 700 degree Fahrenheit surface temperatures would not be problematic. Or perhaps I am understanding this all wrong? (not only possible, but probable my friends...)

I eagerly await your reply, although I will un-pack many a moving box before I respond again, very likely.

Yours,
L.

[Questioner]

In reality, no integration is necessary, for the "life review" is already an integral part of the Law of One...

It may have been in the text all along, but the ideas didn't connect up in my mind until I found the way you expressed them. So I thank you for that.

---

The move has gone well, and today is the first day our internet has been on (San Francisco is lovely by the way, I would recommend a visit, or a move, to anyone).

Welcome back! I love visiting the Bay Area. I could see myself happily living there at some point in my life. If you wind up with a guest room that needs someone to try it out, let me know... Sea breeze is a delightful tonic for me and I've already had far too much summer heat this year!

I'm not sure that there's any connection between currently theorized "dark matter" and the higher densities described in the Law of One material. I could believe, however, that dark matter is what makes moving boxes heavier to unpack than they were to pack. Meanwhile, dark energy is the mysterious dispersed force that results when missing individual socks rejoin the Cosmic Clothing Field.

The TV series Charmed made some good use of Bay Area locations for magical themes.

[3D Sunset]

Indeed! But I think you mis-read me here. What I intended to query was more on the lines of putting together the idea that the universe is mostly (99%) composed of matter that is invisible to us (which we presume to be higher density matter, be they planets, M/B/S complexes, or et cetera AND the notion that we actually have, according to Ra, an example of a higher density celestial body in our own solar system, that being Venus.

Ra suggests that Venus is presently at the 5th/6th density level. If this is so and we maintain that all densities are currently co-existing in our same s/t universe, then it sort of tosses out the idea stated above, that higher density planets (at least) are dark matter in nature. Rather, it seems to suggest that the planet we observe now is 5th/6th density, but since one of the characteristics of a 5th or 6th density entity is non-physicality, the 700 degree Fahrenheit surface temperatures would not be problematic. Or perhaps I am understanding this all wrong? (not only possible, but probable my friends...)

Hi Lavazza,

I am glad that the move went well, and that you are back "on-line" as it were.

In regards your question, forgive me for missing the gist of it before. It seems to me that there are multiple layers to your question. For example the following questions come to mind: If Venus is in 5/6 D then why is it visible to us? Would there be some aspect of physicality that is "different" to us about Venus since it does not have it's 3D body active? Is there "invisible" matter/energy associated with Venus that may be part of what scientists would call "dark matter" and "dark energy"?

To my knowledge, neither Ra nor Q'uo have adequately addressed these topics, so with the caveat that we are on thin ice, as it were, I will give you my understanding/intuition of the answers. In the process, we will either firm up my understanding, or prove how weak it is if we fall through.

- If Venus is in 5/6 D then why is it visible to us? I believe this is due to the ability for planets to have multiple bodies activated at the same time. In this case, Venus has both its 1D, 5D and 6D bodies activated. Since neither its 2D or 3D bodies are active, then we would find no active signs of life on it if we were to explore it.

- Would there be some aspect of physicality that is "different" to us about Venus since it does not have it's 3D body active? This is a very interesting question to me, that has repercussions on our ability to successfully explore space. For example, if we are dependent upon Earth's 3D body to exist, then is space travel actually possible? It seems to me that when we explore space, what we are actually exploring are the 1D, 2D, and 3D activated portions of the universe. We are dependent upon Earth's 3D body to sustain us, but I believe that this sustenance is accomplished through t/s interactions between the sun, Earth, and each of us, and so we need not be physically present on Earth in order to perform 3D work and receive Earth's 3D light (there is much more that could be said about this as well). If we were to explore Venus for example, it would be just as physical to us as our moon, since when we explore each, we are exploring their 1D manifestations.

- Is there "invisible" matter/energy associated with Venus that may be part of what scientists would call "dark matter" and "dark energy"? By my understanding, yes. But since we are in 3D we would not be able to detect it. This is an interesting aspect of dark matter/energy in cosmology. We cannot detect it, yet we know it exists by the actions of the visible portion of the universe.

Is this a more complete answer to your question, or have I missed the nail's head again?

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[Lavazza]

I believe this is due to the ability for planets to have multiple bodies activated at the same time. In this case, Venus has both its 1D, 5D and 6D bodies activated. Since neither its 2D or 3D bodies are active, then we would find no active signs of life on it if we were to explore it.
...
Is this a more complete answer to your question, or have I missed the nail's head again?

Hey 3D, indeed yes. This was exactly where I was attempting to go. I've finally had some additional time to think about this topic and dug up a few quotes that more or less asset your take on the densities. See below:

12.17 Questioner: Is an entity in the fourth density normally invisible to us?

Ra: I am Ra. The use of the word “normal” is one which befuddles the meaning of the question. Let us rephrase for clarity. The fourth density is, by choice, not visible to third density. It is possible for fourth density to be visible. However, it is not the choice of the fourth-density entity to be visible due to the necessity for concentration upon a rather difficult vibrational complex which is the third density you experience.

In this case Ra is speaking about fourth density entities. I assume that means an entity like you and me, but of 4th density vibration. However Ra may have worded that as such to encompass both humanoid and planetary entities, since Ra usually referred to the prior as mind/body/spirit complexes. At any rate, the idea here is that 4th density and higher entities can make themselves invisible, and typically do so for the benefit of lower densities. When a planet does this, it may be "dark matter" to us.

(speaking of Venus again here... L.)
89.12 Questioner: What is its density at present?

Ra: I am Ra. Its core vibrational frequency is sixth density. However we, as a social memory complex have elected to leave that influence. Therefore, the beings inhabiting this planetary influence at this space/time are fifth-density entities. The planet may be considered a fifth/sixth-density planet.

Again this quote indirectly speaks about invisible entities in 5th density this time. (I presume invisible since we haven't found any on Venus with our space probes, but of course this is my assumption). 'Course, one aspect of 5th density is, again, non-physicality when willed so. Which probably means invisible by default anyhow.

13.20 Questioner: Is there any physical difference between first and second density? For instance if I could see both a first and second-density planet side by side, in my present condition, could I see both of them? Would they both be physical to me?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. All of the octave of your densities would be clearly visible were not the fourth through the seventh freely choosing not to be visible.

This is a very direct answer to our question about the densities co-existing in the same universe as we are familiar with. I.e. all in the same space/time "dimension".

62.27 Questioner: I have a question that I didn’t properly answer last night for (name). It has to do with the vibrations of the densities. I understand that the first-density is composed of core atomic vibrations that are in the red spectrum, second in the orange, etc. Am I to understand that the core vibrations of our planet are still in the red and that second-density beings are still in the orange at this space/time right now and that each density as it exists on our planet right now has a different core vibration, or is this incorrect?

Ra: I am Ra. This is precisely correct.

I included this quote because the concept of 'core vibrations' may make for interesting discussion here as it may relate to why dark matter, or higher density entities are or can be invisible to us. I suppose much as the individual blade of a fan can become somewhat invisible when it rotates fast enough, so too can matter as we know it become invisible when all of it's constituents (atoms, or how about strings?) increase their vibration. Interesting!

this dialog then continues:

62.28 Questioner: Then as the fourth-density vibrations come in this means that the planet can support entities of fourth-density core vibration. Will the planet then still be first-density core vibration and will there be second-density entities on it with second-density vibrations, and will there be third-density entities on it with third-density vibrations?

Ra: I am Ra. This will be the last full query of this working. There is energy but the distortions of the instrument suggest to us it would be well to shorten this working with your permission.

62.29 Questioner: Yes.
Ra: You must see the Earth, as you call it, as being seven Earths. There is red, orange, yellow, and there will soon be a completed green color vibratory locus for fourth-density entities which they will call Earth. During the fourth-density experience, due to the lack of development of fourth-density entities, the third-density planetary sphere is not useful for habitation since the early fourth-density entity will not know precisely how to maintain the illusion that fourth-density cannot be seen or determined from any instrumentation available to any third-density.

Thus in fourth-density the red, orange, and green energy nexi of your planet will be activated while the yellow is in potentiation along with the blue and the indigo.

This quote among others may be responsible for some of my confusion with dimensions and densities. So often the concept of "multiple earths co-existing" is thrown around and at least in my case, taken literally. So again if read with the concept of activation/potentiality this makes much more sense.

Also check out the part I put in to bold letters... "that fourth-density cannot be seen or determined from any instrumentation available to any third-density."... Well, we are at least aware that dark matter and energy exist thanks to gravity fluctuations, but we still cannot see or determine what it is. Maybe matter does become dark matter when in 4th, 5th, or 6th density activation.

In the case of Venus, 1st density must still be activated as you speculate. I wonder why though? We can only speculate. Any ideas?

I'm not sure that there's any connection between currently theorized "dark matter" and the higher densities described in the Law of One material. I could believe, however, that dark matter is what makes moving boxes heavier to unpack than they were to pack. Meanwhile, dark energy is the mysterious dispersed force that results when missing individual socks rejoin the Cosmic Clothing Field.

I could believe that too! Although for the first time for us, we hired movers to load and unload our moving truck, so they had to deal with the annoying dark matter. Although I still face the problem of the missing socks. I rather appreciate Gary's interpretation of this anomalous pattern... that being that in such a vortex of love and light that he lives near in Kentucky, rouge socks are always ascending to 4th density without their counterparts. Although socks often appear to follow in the bias of 3rd density mind/body/spirit complexes of having a life long mate, they frequently do not.

[3D Sunset]

In the case of Venus, 1st density must still be activated as you speculate. I wonder why though? We can only speculate. Any ideas?

I'm not really sure. My suspicion is that it's 1D existence is serving a purpose, probably by providing 3D beings a source of wonder, astrological direction and future exploration.

Just a guess.

3D Sunset

[Questioner]

dug up a few quotes...

12.17 ... The fourth density is, by choice, not visible to third density. It is possible for fourth density to be visible. However, it is not the choice of the fourth-density entity to be visible due to the necessity for concentration upon a rather difficult vibrational complex which is the third density you experience.

You interpreted this to mean that 4D generally chooses to be invisible for our benefit.
I interpret it a bit differently. I believe that 4D and up is, simply by nature, not visible to us. For them to become visible is a matter of work and effort. When it specifically helps us for them to be visible to us, they do so. Otherwise, they don't bother since it's extra work for them without any benefit for us.

Suppose that our scientists invented a way to talk to snails. The only drawback is that every sentence takes about half an hour to express or receive. Now some people would very patiently have these conversations with our slow-going 2D associates, but most people would not want to take that much time out of their busy day! Without suggesting that we're sticky or sluggish or live in shells, I imagine that the analogy might be somewhat relevant to what Ra discussed in this quote.

I agree with you that this fits in perfectly with the Venus quote.

I recommend that you seek to understand Ra's material on Ra's own terms. Do this without trying to correlate it with physicists' theories about dark matter. Once you are comfortable with understanding how Ra's own words fit in with Ra's other words, temporarily take "density" as something related to energy/vibration levels for now. After you understand how Ra's comments fit together, only then would it be productive to compare a complete picture of Ra's density discussions with a complete picture of "dark matter" theories. I feel that you are trying to combine two tangents and that your studies may be more productive if you take things one at a time here.

So often the concept of "multiple earths co-existing" is thrown around and at least in my case, taken literally.

Are you familiar with traditional Russian nested dolls? For someone living on the outer surface of the third doll out from the center, everything above them would just be an enclosed shell. For us, that's the edge of fourth dimension which we're just starting to poke into.

In the case of Venus, 1st density must still be activated as you speculate. I wonder why though? We can only speculate. Any ideas?

Ra refers to 1st density as the fundamental elements of earth, air, fire, and water learning from each other. Current scientific theory is that Venus has an abundant of elements and elemental forces. The planet has no shortage of rocks, chemically active atmosphere, cloud cover, lightning, etc. It's easy to suppose that if there was any degree of consciousness inside elemental forces, they would have no shortage of catalyst and learning opportunities in such an active environment.

I rather appreciate Gary's interpretation of this anomalous pattern... that being that in such a vortex of love and light that he lives near in Kentucky, rouge socks are always ascending to 4th density without their counterparts. Although socks often appear to follow in the bias of 3rd density mind/body/spirit complexes of having a life long mate, they frequently do not.

That cracks me up. Hold onto your socks in the Bay Area, they may well find unexpected new types of partnerships! I'm glad to hear that you got the moving logistics all handled.

[Lavazza]

I'm not really sure. My suspicion is that it's 1D existence is serving a purpose, probably by providing 3D beings a source of wonder, astrological direction and future exploration.

Yeah... Also, all of the gravity in our solar system is currently accounted for. They can measure the effect that Saturn has on Mercury's orbit for example. Were we to have a body as large as Venus but invisible, we would still know that it was there by observing it's gravitational effects. This might wreck some havoc on 3rd density scientists free will. Maybe!