Law of One Religion?

[Jim Kent +]

I'm trying not to get drawn into this drama, but I would say this:

Doesn't the Confederation's philosophy espouse the viewpoint that an STO entity would never tell another-self what not to do?

This situation therefore seems somewhat ironic to me!

Or is it just me? 

[Shemaya]

I'm trying not to get drawn into this drama, but I would say this:

Doesn't the Confederation's philosophy espouse the viewpoint that an STO entity would never tell another-self what not to do?

This situation therefore seems somewhat ironic to me!

Or is it just me? 

Jim, yes, I do think you are right.  Basically the confederation says, seek the One, know the One, be the One.  If those who are inspired by the Ra material follow this directive then they will naturally create non - violence in their lives, and will be averse to cruelty.

Dogmas are unnecessary to regulate morality for true seekers.

[AnthroHeart]

I'm trying not to get drawn into this drama, but I would say this:

Doesn't the Confederation's philosophy espouse the viewpoint that an STO entity would never tell another-self what not to do?

This situation therefore seems somewhat ironic to me!

Or is it just me? 

I like your website and book Jim. I agree with you.

[Jim Kent +]

I'm trying not to get drawn into this drama, but I would say this:

Doesn't the Confederation's philosophy espouse the viewpoint that an STO entity would never tell another-self what not to do?

This situation therefore seems somewhat ironic to me!

Or is it just me? 

I like your website and book Jim. I agree with you.

Thank you Gemini, that's very kind of you!

To everyone else, I'm sorry for further derailing this thread! 

[Bluebell]

i find it doubly ironic people judge these discussions or the drama therein.

[Minyatur]

Why do everyone think there is a problem with this thread? Instead of rejecting something, one should seek the meaning of why it is there. This thread is a 3D density argumentation or discussion, isn't that the purpose of being here and having the veil?

I'm gonna start a thread where the only two words accepted are Light and Love, everyone is gonna love it but it won't have much purpose. The title will be : "Light light light love light love love".

I won't love it. What fun is that?

Don't worry I won't create such a thread, I liked the idea though. That's how I sometimes imagine Ra speaking with another social memory complex group and when there's a disagreement they simply interchanged a light and love. xD In that lies the purpose of Wandering, it's much easier to reveal disagreements.

[Ashim]

Ashim, do you want to start a thread about signatures? We could analyze everyone's signatures.

No, detailed analysis is not required when the point being made is obvious.
As I said these were the first signatures I came across.
I was simply stating that I see yours as dogmatic in comparison.

I could show these quotes to my teenage daughter who is not familiar with the Ra Material, aliens etc and I'm pretty sure that she would spot the 'odd one out'.

I also noticed your use of capital letters. This is the equivalent of shouting.

It may be better to try to understand first before trying to be understood.

[Ashim]

Interestingly I just took a look at Jim Kent's book.

Here (I hope with his permission) is the opening sentence:

"It is certainly not my intention to tell anybody what to believe, in my opinion, there are far too many people and organisations doing that already."

[Jim Kent +]

Interestingly I just took a look at Jim Kent's book.

Here (I hope with his permission) is the opening sentence:

"It is certainly not my intention to tell anybody what to believe, in my opinion, there are far too many people and organisations doing that already."

Of course you have my permission! 

[Monica]

Ashim, do you want to start a thread about signatures? We could analyze everyone's signatures.

No, detailed analysis is not required when the point being made is obvious.
As I said these were the first signatures I came across.
I was simply stating that I see yours as dogmatic in comparison.

I could show these quotes to my teenage daughter who is not familiar with the Ra Material, aliens etc and I'm pretty sure that she would spot the 'odd one out'.

I also noticed your use of capital letters. This is the equivalent of shouting.

It may be better to try to understand first before trying to be understood.

Well, you're still talking about my sig...so maybe the posts about signatures could be made into their own thread.

Caps can also be used for emphasis.

[Ashim]

Ashim, do you want to start a thread about signatures? We could analyze everyone's signatures.

No, detailed analysis is not required when the point being made is obvious.
As I said these were the first signatures I came across.
I was simply stating that I see yours as dogmatic in comparison.

I could show these quotes to my teenage daughter who is not familiar with the Ra Material, aliens etc and I'm pretty sure that she would spot the 'odd one out'.

I also noticed your use of capital letters. This is the equivalent of shouting.

It may be better to try to understand first before trying to be understood.

Well, you're still talking about my sig...so maybe the posts about signatures could be made into their own thread.

Caps can also be used for emphasis.

I'm talking about your signature because I feel that veiled dogmatic statements are EXACTLY how religion takes hold.
What I'm saying is that someone may believe something you write on face value, often due also to the emotional charge the words carry.
Religion requires one to believe something one is told without personal experience.

Caps used for emphasis.

[Monica]

I'm talking about your signature because I feel that veiled dogmatic statements are EXACTLY how religion takes hold.

Ok, fair enough. Any statement can be taken literally and become part of a dogma. One of the examples you gave - Embrace your darkness could - be construed as Evil is ok...embrace your urges to go on a murderous rampage in the mind of one so inclined.

What I'm saying is that someone may believe something you write on face value, often due also to the emotional charge the words carry.
Religion requires one to believe something one is told without personal experience.

Is it the words that carry the emotional charge, or does the emotional charge come from within the person?

Case in point: People say they have a problem with my sig because it's 'dogmatic' and 'telling them what to do' yet you can see from my Eating Tomatoes is STS thread, the exact same sig, but just with the word tomatoes instead of meat, carries no emotional charge whatsoever.

Why do you suppose that is? Why is no one concerned about abstaining from tomatoes being made into a religious dogma?

Caps used for emphasis.

[Parsons]

Furthermore, they're choosing to focus on what Ra said about Carla's particular dietary choices, given her particular situation, while ignoring what Ra said about the ideal diet for humans in general, which was plant foods and 'animal products only to the extent necessary for individual metabolism.'

Wow... You made me do a double take on this concept. In my memory, Ra was referring to Carla's diet, not everyone's.

Questioner: In dietary matters, what would be the foods that one would include and what would be the foods that one would exclude in a general way for the most or the greatest care of one’s bodily complex?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we underline and emphasize that this information is not to be understood literally but as a link or psychological nudge for the body and the mind and spirit. Thus it is the care and respect for the self that is the true thing of importance. In this light we may iterate the basic information given for this instrument’s diet. The vegetables, the fruits, the grains, and to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism, the animal products. These are those substances showing respect for the self. In addition, though this has not been mentioned, for this instrument is not in need of purification, those entities in need of purging the self of a poison thought-form or emotion complex do well to take care in following a program of careful fasting until the destructive thought-form has been purged analogously with the by-products of ridding the physical vehicle of excess material. Again you see the value not to the body complex but used as a link for the mind and spirit. Thus self reveals self to self.

Firstly, Ra says not to take the information literally, which you are clearly doing.

Secondly, Don may have intended to ask about everyone in general, but Ra inarguably answered about Carla "this instrument".

I may have said before that your signature "could be interpreted" as dogma, but now I am saying that IS pure dogma. If you simply read that quote verbatim, its about "this instrument" only (Carla). If you twist the quote into something that was clearly not said, you get a totally dogmatic interpretation that Ra was speaking about the entire world population.

And that perfectly ties into the the OP. You are creating your own dogma then attempting to control this community through moral guilt (you said it was "wrong" to eat meat). JUST LIKE RELIGIONS DO.

[Bluebell]

i see Ra saying how u love& care for ur body & how u feel about wut u eat is more important than wut u eat. In other words if u eat w love & gratitude & joy & for nourishment w/o toxic thoughts like guilt...

just my interpretation

[Minyatur]

I'm talking about your signature because I feel that veiled dogmatic statements are EXACTLY how religion takes hold.

Ok, fair enough. Any statement can be taken literally and become part of a dogma. One of the examples you gave - Embrace your darkness could - be construed as Evil is ok...embrace your urges to go on a murderous rampage in the mind of one so inclined.

From what I observed people perceive pretty much anything as they want to perceive it and not how the person wishes it to be transmitted. There is not much we can do on that.

---

Monica, I just found this which might interest you in trying to define how one should act on STO vs STS :

12.25 Questioner: What I’m saying is would I be polarizing more toward self-service or toward service for others when I did this act of locking up the thought-form or construct?

Ra: I am Ra. You may consider that question for yourself. We interpret the Law of One, but not to the extent of advice.

I feel this is what Ra would answer if you were to ask if one should be vegetarian or not. In short it's up to you.

[Ashim]

Ok, fair enough. Any statement can be taken literally and become part of a dogma. One of the examples you gave - Embrace your darkness could - be construed as Evil is ok...embrace your urges to go on a murderous rampage in the mind of one so inclined.

Embrace means to accept, derived from the Latin 'acquiēscere' (to find rest in).
The statement encourages one to integrate the dark aspects of ones beingness in order to become 'whole'.
It is by no stretch of the imagination a call to negative action as you suggest.

Is it the words that carry the emotional charge, or does the emotional charge come from within the person?

The emotional charge comes from the meme or collective thought form.
You tap into this when writing words. The words are stepped down from the thought form, a 3rd density representation.
When you construct a sentence it's the combination of words that relays the emotion.

Case in point: People say they have a problem with my sig because it's 'dogmatic' and 'telling them what to do' yet you can see from my Eating Tomatoes is STS thread, the exact same sig, but just with the word tomatoes instead of meat, carries no emotional charge whatsoever.

Why do you suppose that is? Why is no one concerned about abstaining from tomatoes being made into a religious dogma?

 Religion has forbidden meat eating for millenia already. There is considerable spiritual mass involved.

[Monica]

Furthermore, they're choosing to focus on what Ra said about Carla's particular dietary choices, given her particular situation, while ignoring what Ra said about the ideal diet for humans in general, which was plant foods and 'animal products only to the extent necessary for individual metabolism.'

Wow... You made me do a double take on this concept. In my memory, Ra was referring to Carla's diet, not everyone's.

There was another quote about Carla's meat-eating in particular. This one was about humans in general.

You are leaving out the part about:

In this light we may iterate the basic information given for this instrument’s diet.

The word iterate indicates that Ra is repeating what was said in reference to Carla's diet, in their response to the question about general way for the greatest care of one’s bodily complex.

Firstly, Ra says not to take the information literally, which you are clearly doing.

Does anyone else see the irony here?  

We all quote Ra. So you quote Ra to make the point to not quote Ra...?  

Secondly, Don may have intended to ask about everyone in general, but Ra inarguably answered about Carla "this instrument".

Read it again. Ra's answer was to the question about the human body in general, and used the same answer given about Carla.

You are creating your own dogma then attempting to control this community through moral guilt (you said it was "wrong" to eat meat). JUST LIKE RELIGIONS DO.

It is disrespectful to continue to accuse me of having the motivation to control this community. Rude, disrespectful, and offensive.

Parsons, do you or do you not feel moral guilt when I say Eating tomatoes is STS?

[Monica]

Here is some discussion specifically about those quotes:

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...5#pid48455

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...8#pid84138

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...1#pid62271

[Monica]

Embrace means to accept, derived from the Latin 'acquiēscere' (to find rest in).
The statement encourages one to integrate the dark aspects of ones beingness in order to become 'whole'.
It is by no stretch of the imagination a call to negative action as you suggest.

I agree. I meant that some people could construe it that way, if they were so inclined.

The emotional charge comes from the meme or collective thought form.

Right. So why do you suppose the collective thought form about eating meat has an emotional charge, but the collective thought form about eating tomatoes doesn't?

Religion has forbidden meat eating for millenia already. There is considerable spiritual mass involved.

Which religions? And why?

[Ashim]

As one example, Jainism forbids meat eating and has done since 6th century bc.
Hinduism and Buddhism also advocate abstinence which is interpreted more or less strictly depending on the school.
Over 350 million people in India alone are vegetarians due to religious influence.

Why? The reasons could be manifold.
The souls incarnating in these societies may have had pre-incarnation a strong bias towards aggression or war like behaviour.
The environment may not have been sustainable for the duration of the cycle had the population been carnavores.
The amount of souls wishing to incarnate in this society would be too great a burden if they were meat eaters.

[Shawnna]

and have the reactions they do to your positions,

I know exactly why they react as they do to my positions, and that is completely irrelevant to the topic of this discussion.

Are you saying you know exactly how I think and feel? 

Frankly, your assertion is absurd.

[Monica]

Are you saying you know exactly how I think and feel? 

I was referring to the numerous people who, over the years, have told me that they didn't like my position on meat because they like to eat meat, and that me pointing out how much the animals suffer triggers guilt in them.

These same people said that eating plants is exactly the same as eating animals, yet saying that eating tomatoes is STS doesn't trigger any guilt.

I don't recall ever having a conversation with you, so no, I don't know anything about what you think or feel. This topic predates my interactions with you.

[Shawnna]

Are you saying you know exactly how I think and feel? 

I was referring to the numerous people who, over the years, have told me that they didn't like my position on meat because they like to eat meat, and that me pointing out how much the animals suffer triggers guilt in them.

These same people said that eating plants is exactly the same as eating animals, yet saying that eating tomatoes is STS doesn't trigger any guilt.

I don't recall ever having a conversation with you, so no, I don't know anything about what you think or feel. This topic predates my interactions with you.

Perhaps you want to think about making that clear in your written statement then.  

You wrote:



You did not indicate it was in reference to a limited number of individuals.

I share the following with you because I sense you are a good person and are trying to live true to your ideals.  

For someone like me who hasn't had any interaction with you, you can come across in this medium as strident and abrasive.  If your goal is to convince people to give your way of life a try, coming across like that isn't going to help you.

Namaste, dear Monica. 

[Monica]

My goal isn't to convince people of anything. I am simply doing what everyone else here is doing: expressing my own views.

I can understand how my last few post appear 'strident and abrasive' but in all fairness, you chose to quote my response to what I perceived as unfairness and even hostility. I am human. After dozens of outright attacks directed at me personally because of my views, which included being called all sorts of nasty names, hey, maybe I feel a little frustrated when it keeps happening.

I was moderator here for 3 years. Had I been an abrasive person, they wouldn't have let be a moderator, and chief mod at that.

The conflicts started when I expressed my views about meat. I am entitled to my views.

I invite you to read these:

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.ph...1#pid12751

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.ph...1#pid12831

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...7#pid61727

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...3#pid83073

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.ph...3#pid61413

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...1#pid84061

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...5#pid62295

[Diana]

Those of Ra are probably shaking their (made of light) heads right now over everyone using their quotes as justification for pointing the finger at other-selves.

Personally, I don't care what Ra says or doesn't say about eating meat. I have made up my own mind, for my own reasons, and no one, no group, or no thing could change my mind. It's not that I'm rigid or dogmatic. I have simply evolved away from it (being my own personal evolution) just as a child evolves away from playing with toys (I know . . . adults play with toys too but I had to try and come up with something innocuous, or risk getting blasted by someone who thinks I'm equating eating meat with pouting or throwing tantrums ).

[Monica]

Those of Ra are probably shaking their (made of light) heads right now over everyone using their quotes as justification for pointing the finger at other-selves.

Personally, I don't care what Ra says or doesn't say about eating meat. I have made up my own mind, for my own reasons, and no one, no group, or no thing could change my mind. It's not that I'm rigid or dogmatic. I have simply evolved away from it (being my own personal evolution) just as a child evolves away from playing with toys (I know . . . adults play with toys too but I had to try and come up with something innocuous, or risk getting blasted by someone who thinks I'm equating eating meat with pouting or throwing tantrums ).

This is precisely why it's such a good example of dogma. I have heard many Christians say "It's ok to eat animals because the bible says so." and they think this absolves them of any responsibility for it. 

This is but one of many examples of a Ra quote being used to make a decision, that otherwise might not seem acceptable.

Another example or religious dogma is when a Christian pastor told me "We should just kill all the Muslims. They're all going to hell anyway." Yes, he really said that! This man who would otherwise say that killing is wrong, thought it was ok since they were 'going to hell anyway.'

Left to our own common sense, most humans would agree that cows have a lot more in common with humans than they do carrots. But because Ra said both cows and carrots are 2D (never mind that 2D is a veeeeerrrrrrrry long density), a common response here has been "it's ok to kill animals because they're 2D, just like carrots." Never mind that cows have pain receptors and nervous systems while carrots don't. No common sense required, because Ra said xyz.

[Shemaya]

This is precisely why it's such a good example of dogma. I have heard many Christians say "It's ok to eat animals because the bible says so." and they think this absolves them of any responsibility for it. 

This is but one of many examples of a Ra quote being used to make a decision, that otherwise might not seem acceptable.

Left to our own common sense, most humans would agree that cows have a lot more in common with humans than they do carrots. But because Ra said both cows and carrots are 2D (never mind that 2D is a veeeeerrrrrrrry long density), a common response here has been "it's ok to kill animals because they're 2D, just like carrots." Never mind that cows have pain receptors and nervous systems while carrots don't. No common sense required, because Ra said xyz.

Monica, what we feed our body is not based on common sense.  I don't think people use Ra to make a decision about what they eat.  It is mostly due to our socialization process, culture,  social class , and our geography. 

I think most people base their decision on budget.

If you could get some activists to  fight to take away all the subsidies and corporate welfare that make meat cheap, the higher price would move people along faster to eliminating meat from their diets.

I think your are barking up the wrong tree making it such a moral issue, and such a big "sin" in your eyes. It becomes like all those other moral issues that people debate in their dogmas and beliefs.

[Monica]

Monica, what we feed our body is not based on common sense.  I don't think people use Ra to make a decision about what they eat.  It is mostly due to our socialization process, culture,  social class , and our geography. 

I think most people base their decision on budget.

If you could get some activists to  fight to take away all the subsidies and corporate welfare that make meat cheap, the higher price would move people along faster to eliminating meat from their diets.

Do you think it's only price? It's a lot cheaper to be a vegetarian. I agree about the subsidies, though. (We're working on it!)

My point about 'common sense' was in reference to spiritual or ethical considerations. When a dogma is hardwired, people believe and do things that they otherwise wouldn't.

[Shawnna]

My goal isn't to convince people of anything. I am simply doing what everyone else here is doing: expressing my own views.

I can understand how my last few post appear 'strident and abrasive' but in all fairness, you chose to quote my response to what I perceived as unfairness and even hostility.

I am so sorry Monica.  I have to say that I saw no unfairness or hostility in GLB's post.  Perhaps there are other dynamics between you that cloud your perception?  

Monica

I am human. After dozens of outright attacks directed at me personally because of my views, which included being called all sorts of nasty names, hey, maybe I feel a little frustrated when it keeps happening.

I was moderator here for 3 years. Had I been an abrasive person, they wouldn't have let be a moderator, and chief mod at that.

The conflicts started when I expressed my views about meat. I am entitled to my views.  

Honestly, you sound similar to my beloved born-again friends who mean so well, but have no clue how they come across.

Monica

I invite you to read these:

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.ph...1#pid12751

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.ph...1#pid12831

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...7#pid61727

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...3#pid83073

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.ph...3#pid61413

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...1#pid84061

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...5#pid62295  

I truly respect your desire to 'prove' something to me but with all due respect, this is incredibly tiresome.  

I will light a special candle for us all that we find the path of compassion and love as we go forward.

Namaste  

[Jade]

As a vegan, I too hear the cries of the billions of cows, chickens, etc that are in agony. But I also hear the cries of the billions of humans who live in agony and coldness in this cruel world. Food is a comfort. We're highly conditioned for this. Mom's chicken noodle soup when you're sick, grandma's meatballs on Sunday, going out to celebrate with your family at a restaurant. These things are all socially acceptable and part of the collective and everyone here has partaken in them, so no one is exempt. We all have eaten meat, humans still do and will for a long time. Eventually, however, they won't. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but soon.

I think refraining from making others feel guilty about their dietary choices is the compassionate action in this scenario - that being the 3D earth that we all agreed to collectively create. When we reject any part of creation we are rejecting a specific part of ourselves. When we put others down by using emotionally charged words like "STS", it causes triggers. Monica, you see this happen repeatedly yet you continue to use tactics that cause obvious pain to others. You then justify this because of the pain others are causing animals - but since when is causing more pain the solution to any problem?

One thing I definitely agree upon is that acceptance is one of the important teachings in the The Church of Ra and the Latter Day Adepts. Most of us softies are really here to learn acceptance of ourselves. Whenever we perceive a conflict with others, if we can look within and find where it is inside ourselves, we can remove the emotional charge and the conflict disappears. Of course, this tool is only useful if one doesn't enjoy engaging in heated discussions, and I know many do!

I have no doubt that we are all doing our best at all times that we are able.