Why I am not a vegan

[Monica]

from Care About Hungry People? Eat More Plants

If everyone in the United States decided to eat a vegan diet, would there be enough food to feed the 10 billion people the U.N. projects will inhabit the planet by 2100? According to a recent article in Marketplace, the answer is yes. Here’s why:

The article focuses on the corn market, but not the kind of corn that you find canned or frozen at your local grocery store. The corn centered on is used as animal feed. In the United States, field corn is the largest crop in the country, but only 8.5 percent goes into our foods and drinks, leaving the majority of corn grown in the United States to fill up the bellies of animals raised for food.

StopHungerNow.org reports that "one in every nine people on our planet goes to bed hungry each night." And Bruce Babcock, an economics professor at Iowa State University, says if more people transitioned to a vegan diet, "there would be such a surplus of farmland to grow kumquats and pecans that we would be awash in those, in a heartbeat."

To put it simply, there are 842 million people who do not have enough to eat and a compassionate diet will do more than help the billions of animals killed each year for food; it is a solution that has the potential to feed millions of people by using the 90 million acres of land currently used to grow corn to feed factory-farmed animals to grow vegetables instead.

"The trick would be convincing the country - and other countries that import animal feed from the U.S. - to go vegan. We would have more land available for the 10 billion than they would know what to do with," Babcock concludes.

Consumers can help feed the world’s hungry, and withdraw their support from an industry that treats animals like machines by transitioning away from meat and other animal products. You can order your free Vegetarian Starter Guide here.

from http://www.vegansocietynsw.com/vs/html/s...stice.html

Human hunger and malnutrition

"Every day forty thousand children die in the world for lack of food. We who overeat in the West, who are feeding grains to animals to make meat, are eating the flesh of these children."
- Thich Nhat Hanh

Over 20 million people will die this year as a result of malnutrition and approximately one billion people, mostly rural women and children, suffer chronic hunger. A lot of food that is currently fed to animals could instead be used to feed the world's hungry people directly. To produce just one kilogram of beef protein, it takes at least seven kilograms of grain and other plant protein to be fed to a cow. Eighty percent of starving children live in countries that actually have food surpluses - the children remain hungry because farmers use the surplus grain to feed animals instead of people. References: Feast or Famine: Meat Production and World Hunger by Mark Hawthorne, Immoral maize: how meat-heavy diets are pricing sub-Saharan Africa out of nutrition, Global hunger: The more meat we eat, the fewer people we can feed.
The environment and human rights
Animal production is a major cause of environmental destruction, including global warming. In all countries, a healthy environment is a pre-condition for the enjoyment of many human rights, such as life, health, and wellbeing. Global warming will have most impact on countries which are already suffering in terms of human rights and hunger.

Lack of fresh water
Fresh water is becoming a scarce resource and is used to excess for the production of animal products. The lack of fresh water is a major cause of disease transmission, especially amongst the poor.

The rights of indigenous people
Major causes of deforestation are growing cattle for meat and growing crops to feed farmed animals. Deforestation is often in areas occupied by indigenous people and their rights are likely to be ignored.

Conflict
As the environment degrades there will be more conflict between nations for access to natural resources such as fresh water and food. Those most affected by these resource wars will be the powerless and the poor.

Violence
The effect of the normalising of violence towards non-human animals on acts of violence towards humans has been the subject of some scientific research. For example, the article Vegan Diet Impacts California Prison, says that the results of adopting a vegan diet were "amazing".

Effect on workers in slaughterhouses
Human Rights Watch states that working at a slaughterhouse is "the most dangerous factory job in America". Slaughterhouse workers suffer from illness or injury many times more than workers in other manufacturing jobs. As well as the physical injury slaughterhouse workers suffer from, there are also the disturbing psychological costs, as detailed in A Slaughterhouse Nightmare: Psychological Harm Suffered by Slaughterhouse Employees and the Possibility of Redress through Legal Reform. Workers suffer from a loss of compassion, allowing them to kill without caring. Natural instincts to empathise with the pain and death of animals are suppressed. This desensitisation to suffering in animals is linked to a higher propensity for committing violent crimes towards humans, particularly domestic abuse. For more on this topic, see Creating Killers: Human Tolls of Slaughter and Distanced from death: animal cruelty at the abattoir.

[Monica]

Inside the mind of a killer

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Starving Children in Africa

from http://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/05/boverty-blues-p1/ (part 1)

http://bravenewclimate.com/2010/02/04/boverty-blues-p2/ (part 2)

Boverty was defined in the previous post as the human impact of too many bovines overwhelming the local biosphere’s ability to feed them … the bovines are usually cattle and more than a few African countries have boverty induced poverty. Their livestock is a millstone around their necks and helping to keep them poor.

Western aid organisations, particularly those run by BBQ obsessed Australians, seem dominated by people haven’t woken up to the simple fact that the foods they grew up on when the planet had half its present population haven’t been sustainable globally for a very long time. Even in Australia, with its vast landmass and small human population, the production of these foods has driven and continues to drive water shortages, environmental degradation and biodiversity loss.

...
Ethiopia and Sudan have 43 million and 41 million cattle respectively. In Ethiopia 80 million people eat 11 million tonnes of food while those 43 million cattle and assorted other livestock graze 80 million tonnes and are fed a further 20 million tonnes as feed.

...

Proving that cattle cause starvation is tough, but demonstrating that cattle don’t protect people from food insecurity is trivially easy. It’s in the numbers.

...

This plot of per capita cattle ratios and undernourishment proportions shows pretty clearly that livestock are not effective in protecting people from hunger. Compare the food security of Nigeria, famously the happiest country on the planet which feeds 154 million people, with an undernourishment rate of 8 percent with Ethiopia, Sudan, Chad and Botswana. The latter have some of the worst poverty and chronic undernourishment on the planet while swimming in cattle and burning the s*** out of their country every year. All the countries to the right of the 0.3 cattle per capita vertical line have more cattle per head of human population than the US. Allowing for the difference in cattle size we should really shift this line to about the 0.5 point. So Niger, Chad, Sudan and such have more cattle than the famously obese hamburger munching US. But still they starve. Does it look like more cattle will fix anything?

...

This is land that can grow vast amounts of food but is currently set on fire in a massive cattle conflagration each year that produces nothing but ongoing boverty.

To be specific, Ethiopia, for example, claims (see above IPCC submission) about 73 million hectares of land suitable for farming but is using just 7 million. It has 3.7 million hectares suitable for irrigation and with adequate river water resources but has only 160,000 under irrigation.

Africa’s undernutrition problem, put simply, is that more than a few countries have a culture which prefers cattle and burning the s*** out of the country to growing food.

[Unbound]

What would happen to all the animals if they were suddenly freed? What would they eat then if the food they are fed was fed to children?

[Shemaya]

Pseudoscientific speculation to sway rich American prejudice is pure propaganda. The elites of this world love to distort the facts to create chaotic division , us/ them mentality and foment hatred and rage. That way they can continue their profit driven corporate imperialistic take over of every square inch of this planet. Is that what you want? Will that make you happy?

In Africa where I was in the countryside, every square inch of land was cultivated. the people there had a few farm animals that supplement their mostly vegetarian diet. Ironically, much of the land is used to grow tea by Lipton for Westerners.

There are not factory farms on the land where the people live. Of course since imperialism, and the increasingly Westernized lifestyles of the urban areas, things are changing. take people off the land ( ie steal the land), stick them in office buildings for slave wage grind of Western life, things are changing. It's because colonialists, Westerners like us, imposed our values lifestyles and attitudes on other people. Missionaries and the like ( ie. vegangelicals) are just unaware shills for the hostile takeover of the world for STS agenda. It's WRONG!

Veganism is an ideology that appeases the guilt Westerner's have for stealing the land and resources of our 3rd world neighbors. Wrong on every level of what is good, noble and true. Veganism as a moral standard will just assist the STS agenda, and that ( profit driven corporate takeover) needs to STOP asap or the world is going to suffer immensely.

[Monica]

What would happen to all the animals if they were suddenly freed? What would they eat then if the food they are fed was fed to children?

It's moot because it won't happen suddenly. At best, it will happen gradually.

The meat industry artificially accelerates reproduction, so the farm animal population is abnormally large right now. As more people go vegan, the demand for meat will decrease, and the meat machine will decrease the artificially accelerated reproduction. Supply and demand.

---

Pseudoscientific speculation to sway rich American prejudice is pure propaganda. The elites of this world love to distort the facts to create chaotic division , us/ them mentality and foment hatred and rage.

Oh yes, the negative elite is surely using vegans to further their agenda! Promote nonviolence! That is surely an STS agenda!

In Africa where I was in the countryside, every square inch of land was cultivated.

There aren't any factory farms where I live in Texas. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. They surely do.

Missionaries and the like ( ie. vegangelicals) are just unaware shills for the hostile takeover of the world for STS agenda. It's WRONG!

Wow! Something we agree on! (happy dance!)

Except...the STS entities pretty much already control the world.

Veganism is an ideology that appeases the guilt Westerner's have for stealing the land and resources of our 3rd world neighbors. Wrong on every level of what is good, noble and true. Veganism as a moral standard will just assist the STS agenda, and that ( profit driven corporate takeover) needs to STOP asap or the world is going to suffer immensely.

Oh yes, the vegan moral standard of ending corporate factory farms will surely feed the STS agenda of more corporate takeover. Right, and the vegan vision of encouraging backyard gardens is part of the STS agenda too...yes indeed! The vegan vision of ending violence to animals definitely feeds the STS agenda...oops!!! but wait! We know from Ra that STS entities feed on fear...oopsie! What are all those STS entities going to eat when the meat machine shuts down? You know, all this stuff here will go away...what will they eat?

This...their food!

An issue not even thought about
by most people, even many of those
in the fight for animal rights, is the
effects on the minds of those people
who do the actual slaughter of the
chickens. You see, the killing machine
can never slit the throat of every bird
that goes by, especially those that the
stunner does not stun properly. So,
you have what is known as a "killer"
whose job it is to catch those birds
so that they are not scalded alive in the
tank. (Of course he can't catch all of
them, but we'll get to that.)

(Keep in mind while you read this that
the plant I worked at was the smallest
Tyson had. They have some that are
much bigger that run hundreds of
thousands of birds a shift.)

Picture this: You are told by your supervisor
that it is your night in the kill room. You
think, "Sh*t, it's gonna be a rough night
tonight." No matter what the weather is
like outside, this room is hot, between
90-100F. The scalders also keep the
humidity at about 100%. You can see
the steam in the air as a kind of haze.
You put on your plastic apron to cover
your whole body from the sprays of blood
and the hot water that keeps the killing
machine's blade clean and washes the floor.
You put on the steel glove and pick up the
knife. It's very sharp. It has to be.

You can hear the squawking from the
chickens being hung in the next room
as well as the metal shackles rattling.
You can hear the motors that drive the
chickens down the line. It is so loud you
could scream and not hear yourself. (I've
done it just to see.) You have to
communicate with hand signals to anyone
who might come in. Although, no one
wants to. They only come in if they have
to. And they certainly donj't want to startle
you.Not with a sharp knife in your hand.
If you whirled around......

Here come the birds through the stunner
into the killing machine. It's time to get
busy. You can expect to have to catch
every 5th one or so, many that are not
stunned. Remember, they come at you
182-186 per minute. There is blood
everywhere, in the 3'x3'x20' trough
beneath the machine, on your face, your
neck, your arms, all down your apron.
You are covered in it. Sometimes you
have to wash off the clots of blood,
without taking your eyes off the line
lest one slip by, which they will....

You can't catch them all, but you try.
Every time you miss one you "hear" the
awful squawk it's making when you see
it flopping around in the scalder, beating
itself against the sides. Damn, another
"redibird." You know that for every one
you see suffer like this, there have been
as many as 10 you didn't see. You just
know it happens. You just
want to get through the night and go home.
But, it will be a long 2 1/2 hours until break
time. More than two hours of killing nonstop.
At least a couple dozen chickens a minute
at best. At worst, a whole lot more.

The sheer amount of killing and blood
can really get to you after awhile, especially
if you can't just shut down all emotion
completely and turn into a robot zombie
of death. You feel like part of a big death
machine. Pretty much treated that way as
well. Sometimes weird thoughts will enter
your head. It's just you and the dying
chickens. The surreal feelings grow into
such a horror of the barbaric nature of
your behavior.

You are murdering helpless birds by
the thousands (75,000 to 90,000 a night).
You are a killer.

You can't really talk to anyone about
this. The guys at work will think you are
soft. Family and friends don't want to
know about this. It makes them
uncomfortable and unsure of what
to say or how to act. They can even
look at you a little weird. Some don't
want much else to do with you when they
know what you do for a living.
You are a killer.

Out of desperation you send your
mind elsewhere so that you don't end
up like those guys that lose it. Like the
guy that fell on his knees praying to God
for forgiveness. Or the guy they hauled
off to the mental hospital that kept having
nightmares that chickens were after him.
I've had those, too. (shudder) Very creepy.
You find something else to dwell on to try
to remove yourself from the situation.
To keep your mind from drowning in all
those hundreds of gallons of blood you
see. Most people who work this room and
work in the hanging cage use some sort
of stimulant to keep up the pace and some
sort of mellowing substance to escape reality.

You become more prone to violence.
When you get angry you become much
more likely to physically attack whatever
or whoever you are mad at. You are a lot
more likely to use a weapon than you were.
Especially a knife. A sharp one.
You are a killer.

You begin to feel a sense of disgust
at yourself at what you have done and
continue to do. You are ashamed to
tell others what you do at night while
they are asleep in their beds.
You are a killer.

People tend to avoid you, even others
at the plant, whether from instinct or
because they know what you do and
can't understand how you can do it
night after night. There must be
something wrong with you. You have
the smell of death on you.
You are a killer. A mass murderer.

You shut down all emotions eventually.
You just can't care about anything.
Because if you care about something,
it opens the gate to all those bad feelings
that you can't afford to feel and still
do your job. You have bills to pay.
You have to eat. But, you don't want
chicken. You have to be really hungry
to eat that. You know what goes into e
very bite. All the horror and negativity.
All the brutality.

Concentrated into every bite.

Many people who do this commit violent
acts. They commit crimes. People who
already are criminals tend to gravitate
towards this job. You can't have a strong
conscience and kill living creatures night
after night.

You feel isolated from society, not a
part of it. Alone. You know you are
different from most people. They don't
have visions of horrible death in their heads.
They have not seen what you have seen.
And they don't want to. They don't even
want to hear about it.

If they did, how could they eat that next
piece of chicken?

Welcome to the nightmare I escaped.
I'm better now. I play well with others,
at least most of the time......

According to slaughter plant worker, Tommy Vladak, "After they left me, the hogs would go up a ramp to a tank where they're dunked in 140° water. By the time they hit the scalding tank, they're still fully conscious. " They get up to the scalding tank, hit the water, & start kicking & screaming. A rotating pushes them under. I am not sure if they burn to death before they drown, but it takes them a couple of minutes to stop thrashing." Here's your bacon - and your victims.
(text is courtesy of Mercy For Animals. and the book Slaughterhouse: The Shocking Story of Greed, Neglect, and Inhumane Treatment Inside the U.S. Meat Industry)

So...you said efforts to end the above are feeding the STS agenda. By simple logic, that must mean that this (above) is somehow STO? OK, thanks so much for explaining that to me! Except...that's a LOT of food being denied STS entities, when we succeed in ending it. Where will all those STS entities go? What will they eat? We don't want to starve them do we?? Oh gosh, now I'm all confused. Please enlighten me, Shemaya.

[Diana]

Veganism is an ideology that appeases the guilt Westerner's have for stealing the land and resources of our 3rd world neighbors. Wrong on every level of what is good, noble and true. Veganism as a moral standard will just assist the STS agenda, and that ( profit driven corporate takeover) needs to STOP asap or the world is going to suffer immensely.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How anyone could come to that conclusion is utterly amazing.

I don't even know what to say...

Okay, maybe I can think of something. Compare:

1. Meat-eaters.

Best case scenario: raise your own animals and treat them well. But still, you are going to kill them for food (I'll address chickens in a moment). They may be loved (which I find a little creepy knowing you are going to eat them later, but that's just me), they may roam free in your yard (but they are not really free to live their natural animals lives); and then you or someone else slaughters them for food, and let's face it, they don't want to die. As for chickens and those who raise them just for eggs, it's a pretty gentle way to obtain animal protein, but the chickens still aren't really free to live naturally. And, the fact is, humans don't NEED animal protein.

Worst case scenario: support the torture and slaughter of animals. Unbound spelled out his unique ways and reasons for why he consumes meat, and I respect what he is trying to do. But I think he is unique, and it would take a very advanced person indeed, to REALLY overcome the pain, fear, and horror in the meat industry when consuming its products. I simply do not agree that one can support the system by buying its products, and then neutralize the effects of it—inhumane torture and cruelty plus greed—by saying thank you or what ever prayer one says. I am not saying it has no effect, but let's get real here and weigh things in the balance. And you can't get past this central point: if you buy the meat, you support the industry.

2. Vegans.

Vegans don't support the industries of torturing and slaughtering animals for food they don't need.

Vegans recognize the rights of animals. They do not think obvious torture and horrifically slaughtering animals in fear is good. The one thing vegans could be accused of sometimes, depending who is referenced, is being overzealous—because they are so heartbroken and appalled at what is being done to animals.

Notwithstanding the fact that the above is my take on the situation, how could anyone twist the vegan movement into something that supports STS?

[Unbound]

How do you know that? What if meat-eaters also want to stop cruel practices and shut down farms? Why is the single, only possible way through people going vegan?

---

Also, on the topic of "animals living naturally", how about domestic animals then? Is domestication part of their "natural" life style now?

[Diana]

How do you know that? What if meat-eaters also want to stop cruel practices and shut down farms? Why is the single, only possible way through people going vegan?

I'm not sure if you addressed me, or what you mean by "How do you know that."

I don't think going vegan is the single, only possible way.

Also, on the topic of "animals living naturally", how about domestic animals then? Is domestication part of their "natural" life style now?

No. I have had pets in the past. Stray cats as an adult (childhood we had dogs and cats). But I don't like the system of domesticating animals and don't plan on having anymore pets. I don't like zoos or aquariums and certainly don't visit them or support them. My "pets" are the deer and javelina who come by for water and sometimes snacks of apples and carrots. Then they go about their animal lives.

[Monica]

How do you know that? What if meat-eaters also want to stop cruel practices and shut down farms?

Many meat-eaters (including some here at B4) claim to be against the cruel practices, and defend their meat eating by saying that they support 'humanely raised' meat; ie. meat from animals who were allowed to live relatively natural lives up until the moment of slaughter.

While that is obviously an improvement over the most abominably produced meat - factory farms - there are 2 things wrong with that:

1. Murdering a human is still considered wrong when the victim wasn't tortured first. It's just considered more heinous if the victim is tortured first. By that same logic, unnecessarily killing animals for meat is still wrong, though just not as heinous as torturing them before killing them. (Remember: In our modern society, virtually ALL eating of meat is unnecessary, since the human body doesn't need meat. There are always alternatives, even for unusual health conditions.)

2. Those who claim to buy 'humanely produced' meat often eat out at restaurants, or even fast-food joints. The meat at those places was most likely produced at an abominable factory farm.

Why is the single, only possible way through people going vegan?

Simple supply and demand. When the demand for a product drops, the response in supply also drops.

The reason that cows grazing peacefully in pastures are being replaced by abominable factory farms is that corporations are buying up many of the family-owned farms, and must institute factory-farm practices to keep up with the demand and stay profitable. Many small-time farmers have lamented that they can no longer stay competitive with the corporate-owned meat machines.

Some small-time farmers are now catering to the 'humane' market which is growing, due to increased awareness (thanks to the vegans!) which is certainly a step in the right direction. There really is no such thing as 'humane' killing; that is an oxymoron. But it is an improvement.

Still, as I said, even those who proudly buy 'humane' meat still eat at restaurants, surely. The fast-food places are the worst of the worst.

Also, on the topic of "animals living naturally", how about domestic animals then? Is domestication part of their "natural" life style now?

Apparently it is now. Domesticated animals are no longer capable of surviving in the wild, and their natural habitats are gone (largely due to the meat industry!) so they are now our responsibility. We can't undo domestication of dogs, cats, cows, pigs, sheep, horses, chickens, etc. We're stuck trying to find a solution that is harmonious for all.

The first step is eradicating the meat industry. It always goes back to that. The artificially bloated cow, chicken, and pig populations would dramatically shrink, if they were no longer being fed growth hormones, artificially inseminated, and grown so intensively.

Cats and dogs...that's a whole 'nother issue.

[Unbound]

So what exactly do you think the role of humans is on the planet, since we seem to do so many different things?

[Monica]

So what exactly do you think the role of humans is on the planet, since we seem to do so many different things?

Gosh, that is a very open-ended question! It is beyond the scope of this discussion - ie. off-topic - but would make a good thread on its own.

Or did you mean only in regards to the animals/meat issue?

[Unbound]

In regards to this issue, and how would your view accommodate the diversity of humans?

[Monica]

In regards to this issue, and how would your view accommodate the diversity of humans?

I envision us transitioning to a peaceful, 4D STO planet. This would obviously entail great changes. Not only would the meat industry have to be eradicated, but also war, poverty, and a great many other injustices. It won't happen overnight.

We must continue to be stewards of domesticated animals, because they depend on us.

The diversity of humans can be accommodated, as long as they aren't harming anyone else. One person's freedom ends where another's begins. Just like we try to reduce violent crime...No, those who wish to commit violent, criminal acts aren't accommodated by society.

Speaking of criminals, this illustrates exactly why I feel that quitting meat is the single most important first step towards manifesting a peaceful planet:

Vegan Diet Impacts California Prison

At the time, the State of California had a recidivism rate of 95%. This is the percentage of former prisoners who are rearrested. The Victor Valley facility enjoyed a recidivism rate of less than 2%.

So, what was the key factor behind this success? A vegan diet.

Upon arrival, new inmates attended an orientation where they received two clear choices. They could live on one side of the prison which operated using the standard California Department of Corrections (CDC) guidelines and food menus; or, they could live on the side of the prison operated under the “NEWSTART” program which included a vegan diet, bible studies, job training and anger management.

In a video-taped interview obtained by Vegetarian Spotlight, Victor Valley nutrition services coordinator Julianne Aranda explains that “what we eat not only affects us physically, but it affects our mental attitude, our aggressiveness and our ability to make good decisions”. In interview after interview it was clear that the NEWSTART program staff was in agreement that the mind and body must be cleaned up in order for the inmates to achieve positive behavioral changes.

Initially, although the State of California was very supportive of the NEWSTART concept, they told Moorland they didn’t believe that even five inmates (of the 500) would accept that kind of a diet. In fact, they told Moorland that inmates would probably “burn the place down before they became vegetarians”. However, once the program was in progress, the opposite became true. On average, 85% of the inmates chose the NEWSTART side while only 15% chose the CDC program.

The remarkable behavioral changes could even be seen outside in the prison yard where according to prison officials, nobody “owned” or controlled the yard. Typical lines drawn between blacks, whites, hispanics, gang members and other groups were non existent. On the NEWSTART side, everyone played basketball together and had great fellowship. The CDC side of the house had the same racial divisions experienced at any other prison.

In testimonials, inmates assert that the surprisingly good-tasting food led them to feel better, have greater energy, increased stamina and reduced problems with acne. Indeed the effectiveness of a vegan vegetarian diet in rehabilitation has been scientifically validated.

How 'bout that s*** eh? Can you imagine if all prisons did this? Just think of the implications if everyone quit eating animals. It would help foster in a new era of peace!

No, of course diet isn't the only factor. But it is a key factor. This prison experiment supports this theory. Yes, they offered additional services too, which were undoubtedly factors as well. This model could be duplicated and further studied...huge implications for war zones as well.

[Diana]

The above post about prisons is awesome. Not because it supports any of my humble opinions, but because it actually represents real and positive change.

[Monica]

Is Meat Sustainable?

M E A T

Now, It’s Not Personal!
But like it or not, meat-eating is becoming a problem for everyone on the planet.

...as environmental science has advanced, it has become apparent that the human appetite for animal flesh is a driving force behind virtually every major category of environmental damage now threatening the human future—deforestation, erosion, fresh water scarcity, air and water pollution, climate change, biodiversity loss, social injustice, the destabilization of communities, and the spread of disease.

How did such a seemingly small matter of individual consumption move so rapidly from the margins of discussion about sustainability to the center? To begin with, per-capita meat consumption has more than doubled in the past half-century, even as global population has continued to increase. As a result, the overall demand for meat has increased five-fold. That, in turn, has put escalating pressure on the availability of water, land, feed, fertilizer, fuel, waste disposal capacity, and most of the other limited resources of the planet.

To provide an overview of just how central a challenge this once marginal issue has become, we decided to survey the relevance of meat-eating to each of the major categories of environmental impact that have conventionally been regarded as critical to the sustainability of civilization. A brief summary observation for each category is accompanied by quotes from a range of prominent observers, some of whom offer suggestions about how this difficult subject—not everyone who likes pork chops or ribs is going to switch to tofu without a fight—can be addressed.

...

Albert Einstein, who was better known for his physics and math than for his interest in the living world, once said:
“Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” We don’t think he was just talking about nutrition. Notice that in this article we haven’t said much at all about the role of meat in nutrition, even though there’s a lot more to talk about than heart disease. Nor have we gone into the ethics of vegetarianism, or of animal rights. The purpose of those omissions is not to brush off those concerns, but to point out that on ecological and economic grounds alone, meat-eating is now a looming problem for humankind. You don’t have to have any conscience at all to know that the age of heavy meat-eating will soon be over as surely as will the age of oil...

[Matt1]

Is it difficult to go from veggie to vegan and do you need to take supplements? what are the benefits of doing so.

[Diana]

In regards to this issue, and how would your view accommodate the diversity of humans?

Once again I may be answering for someone else, but here goes anyway. It could be considered in canvassing this question:

When slavery was abolished in the U.S., the humans who profited by it or simply used slaves as workers just had to do something else. The plantation owners paid workers instead of owning them. (I am not suggesting eating meat or raising animals for food becomes a crime.)

When women were given the right to vote, after being considered chattel for long centuries in parts of the world, those who felt empowered by their artificial superiority over women just had to deal with it.

Would anyone want to reverse either of these changes to accommodate diversity or free will?

Humans will always be diverse given any set of parameters. There is more at stake here than just humans. There is the ecosystem, the planet, of course the animal kingdom, even our survival.

I'll let a great scientist say a few words here...

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." —Albert Einstein

"Our task must be to free ourselves...by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." —Albert Einstein

[Monica]

Is it difficult to go from veggie to vegan and do you need to take supplements? what are the benefits of doing so.

I found it more difficult giving up cheese than giving up meat, because I wasn't repulsed by cheese like I was meat. Also, cheese was a comfort food for me. It was actually doing the research for the original meat thread that opened my eyes to the cruelty in the dairy industry, and how the dairy industry feeds the meat industry, rather than just being a by-product, as I had formerly thought. Then, Pablisimo pointed out to me the addictive nature of dairy, and that is what finally got me to quit cheese completely.

What also helped me a lot was switching to the vegan cheese alternatives. The early versions weren't very palatable, but they are getting better and better! My favorite brand is Daiya - all of their cheese varieties are delicious and even meltable! (Thanks again to Pablisimo for that too!)

There are really only 2 concerns when switching from veggie to vegan:

1. Eating enough calories. As long as you eat enough calories of good foods (not empty junk), it is impossible to not get enough protein. See any books or lectures by Dr. John McDougall. The only time vegans run into problems is when they are trying to live on just salads and celery, which don't have many calories, or if they are eating a lot of junk. Eggs and dairy are calorie-intensive, so be sure to replace them with grains, legumes, tofu, tempeh, nuts, seeds, avocados, fruits, and starchy root veggies like potatoes, all of which have abundant calories.

2. B12. See the beginning of this thread for more on B12. It is the only nutrient that must be supplemented, for the simple reason that we wash the dirt off our food. Best form is sublingual. It's cheap and easy.

The benefits to one's health are enormous! Reduced risk of nearly all the degenerative diseases, improved immune system, increased energy, better skin, etc. Here is a great resource, based on the most comprehensive study on diet ever done:

http://www.forksoverknives.com/ <<== AWESOME RESOURCE! Watch the movie! Includes the science, amazing testimonials, yummy recipes, and much more. (It's about health only - Not graphic.)

Those transitioning from meat to veg may find this helpful:

Bring4th Forums Two > Health & Diet v > Vegetarianism Made E-Z (Recipes and Stuff - NO debate allowed here!)

[Jade]

As an anecdote, my mother in law has been a vegetarian for over half her life (20+ years), and she just recently had gastric bypass surgery. Quitting just meat isn't always good enough, even if you do it for your health. Really though if you can cut out MOST of your dairy, that's doing a lot. People get caught up too much in labels. I recently saw an interview with Bill Clinton, who is a vegan, but he said he eats either 1 omelette or a wild caught salmon filet once a week because it helps him feel like he's getting enough protein. There were some people going nuts saying "HE'S NOT A VEGAN!!!!!" It's not about asceticism. It's about making conscious decisions. When I first went "vegan", I told myself that I wasn't never going to have cheese again, or even maybe meat once in a great while. I've had sushi twice and have had little bits of dairy here and there. If you're torturing yourself, you're doing it wrong.

Avocados are a good cheese substitute on most things - sandwiches, burritos, salads. As far as meat substitutes go it's hard to go wrong with ground beef or sausage - ground beef is mostly texture anyway, and sausage is just filling with flavor, so I find most vegan sausages I've tried very convincing. Ground beef substitute I use in pasta marinara, burritos, stroganoff. Scrambling and frying up tofu can make a very convincing scrambled eggs - throw in some of the aforementioned Daiya (mm mm!), and you've got cheesy scrambled "eggs".

[Monica]

As an anecdote, my mother in law has been a vegetarian for over half her life (20+ years), and she just recently had gastric bypass surgery. Quitting just meat isn't always good enough, even if you do it for your health. Really though if you can cut out MOST of your dairy, that's doing a lot. People get caught up too much in labels. I recently saw an interview with Bill Clinton, who is a vegan, but he said he eats either 1 omelette or a wild caught salmon filet once a week because it helps him feel like he's getting enough protein. There were some people going nuts saying "HE'S NOT A VEGAN!!!!!" It's not about asceticism. It's about making conscious decisions. When I first went "vegan", I told myself that I wasn't never going to have cheese again, or even maybe meat once in a great while. I've had sushi twice and have had little bits of dairy here and there. If you're torturing yourself, you're doing it wrong.

If all the meat-eaters did what you and Clinton are doing, the world would be a better place (and a lot healthier too).

[ScottK]

If all the meat-eaters did what you and Clinton are doing, the world would be a better place (and a lot healthier too).

Oy - Bill Clinton is about as STS as they come..

---

I had the realization while I was cooking a couple of weeks ago that regardless of what we do, when we eat, we have the free will choice to choose which 2nd density entity we wish to consume - and we are pretty much forced into consuming an entity with said level of consciousness.

Ever since listening to an interview on Coast to Coast with Gerald Epling a few years ago, I've kind of equated Animal and Plant consciousness..

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2008/03/18

My belief became that it was important to maintain a positive, light attitude because all other consciousnesses around me were effected by me, regardless of whether those entities are plants or animals. We just don't understand the consciousness of plants because they aren't like us.

As I see it, the only way we could completely remedy the situation of what we eat is if we had food synthesizers - otherwise, on this planet, we are stuck with the issue of destroying life so that we may eat regardless of what we eat.

That's my opinion - that and $1.99 will get you a cup of coffee..

[Shemaya]

If all the meat-eaters did what you and Clinton are doing, the world would be a better place (and a lot healthier too).

Oy - Bill Clinton is about as STS as they come..

Who knows, he might just be a shill for the others

As I see it, the only way we could completely remedy the situation of what we eat is if we had food synthesizers - otherwise, on this planet, we are stuck with the issue of destroying life so that we may eat regardless of what we eat.

That's my opinion - that and $1.99 will get you a cup of coffee..

But don't you think it's possible for us to eradicate the corporatization of farming? And the profit motive for food? If we all made conscious choices ,like Jade said, that supported the sustainability of the planet?

I really think it is possible, the majority just need to agree on a vision and work together. Knowing from where we came in an evolutionary sense and where we are headed, being aware and leading others in the way forward.

[Monica]

I had the realization while I was cooking a couple of weeks ago that regardless of what we do, when we eat, we have the free will choice to choose which 2nd density entity we wish to consume - and we are pretty much forced into consuming an entity with said level of consciousness.

Ever since listening to an interview on Coast to Coast with Gerald Epling a few years ago, I've kind of equated Animal and Plant consciousness..

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2008/03/18

My belief became that it was important to maintain a positive, light attitude because all other consciousnesses around me were effected by me, regardless of whether those entities are plants or animals. We just don't understand the consciousness of plants because they aren't like us.

2D is a very long density.

I encourage you to read the posts about plants.

[Shemaya]

I'm working on becoming a vegetarian. I've personally made the choice that if it's not something I could do, I don't think I should consume meat.

Having said that, I've come to realize that there are many things I don't want to do but survive because others do them for me. Farming is hard, which I don't have the patience for (beyond a large garden) but plenty of people make that sacrifice so I can eat. Carpentry and being on your knees all day is something I could never ever do, but I'm glad others build that foundation. Then there's something like roofing, one of the most back breaking jobs that exists, and I'm thankful for the roof over my head. And of course I'm wearing slave-made clothes, even though I'd rather not be.

So we give and take..we're all selfish and use each other but we don't have to look at it that way. It's functioning as a unit. In one of Sandor Katz's books he says he's "..thankful for those who have the courage to slaughter." I think that's a nice way of putting it..and I'm sure he's referring to humanely raised animals.

Hi Icaro, sorry I missed this before! I think the concept of functioning as a unit is foundational to our evolution to 4D. The human body is an awesome example of a community of individual (cells) functioning as a unit. As humans come together in a consciousness of wholism, one planet, one unit, we will create a healthier society on all levels, including how we nourish and feed ourselves, which I agree with Diana will be more and more vegetarian as we evolve.

When you say we use each other, I see it more as being interdependent, we are one Body. We support one another, ideally. Equal exchange and give and take. Some may give more and others less, but as a unit , it works out.

That is how it is with my hens. I feed and nourish them, and they provide me food. Equal exchange, symbiosis. They are cute and funny creatures. When I reach in for the eggs, when a hen is sitting on them, she just gently gets up and makes her eggs available to me. Chickens were bred for this very purpose and have nourished humans for a very long time.

Being thankful for what sustains us is a good way to go, I agree with Katz on that one.

I think that having veganism as a moral standard right now is jumping the evolutionary tide. People will have to transition more gently to reprogram our DNA and genetics. Humans have been eating meat for a long time, have been sustained by eating meat; it's not going to be fast change- over. Many people who have tried veganism have failed, what are they supposed to do, beat themselves up over it?

I think that knowing your farmer, buying local harvest is a really important way to change the system. Anything that we can do economically to avoid supporting the corporate and profit driven food system helps.

[Monica]

Oy - Bill Clinton is about as STS as they come..

And yet, here are all these self-professed STOs, even Wanderers, defending their practice of eating sentient creatures. Go figure.

[Shemaya]

Oy - Bill Clinton is about as STS as they come..

And yet, here are all these self-professed STOs, even Wanderers, defending their practice of eating sentient creatures. Go figure.

Those infidels!

[Monica]

I think that having veganism as a moral standard right now is jumping the evolutionary tide.

There have been many rapid leaps in society: The ending of slavery, the industrial revolution, taking baths! the age of electronics...People have adapted before and they can adapt again. A few generations from now, they will look back on meat-eating with disgust, the way we now look at blood-letting and using leaches. Third-world countries and remote villages will take longer, but then again, they aren't eating nearly as much meat as industrialized nations to begin with.

People will have to transition more gently to reprogram our DNA and genetics.

Cutting-edge scientists present evidence that DNA can change rapidly. There is evidence right now that many children have already developed DNA changes, in the last decade or so. It's already happening. It can happen fast. Maybe this is part of what the shift to 4D is all about. Leaps in consciousness is what changes DNA. We don't have to wait. We can do it...NOW! But we have to start with ourselves.

Humans have been eating meat for a long time, have been sustained by eating meat; it's not going to be fast change- over.

We shall see. That depends largely on US...As I've said many times, if even so-called 'Wanderers' don't get it, don't see compassion as a response to this cruelty, then what hope is there for the rest of the world?

Meanwhile, vegetarians/vegans are growing in numbers, far faster than I would have believed a few decades ago when I quit eating animals. Back then, 33 years ago, there was no such thing as a vegetarian restaurant in my city of 2 million, and it was extremely difficult to eat out. Now there are several vegetarian restaurants, 2 of them vegan! And it's easy to find vegan food anywhere. I counted 6 - 6!!! vegan restaurants in another large city, and that wasn't even the whole city, but just an area of it. Mainstream chains now have veggie burgers, and most restaurants will accommodate vegans. People scoff at vegans but at least they now know what they are, and it's getting trendier as more celebrities (like our 'STS' (?) friend Clinton) restore their health. As cancer and heart disease rates skyrocket, more and more people are looking at alternatives. The science is there, it's unmistakable.

Whereas the US vegetarian population is only about 2%, in Britain it's 12%!!!

I predict that the whole world will shift to mostly vegan before the end of the century, at the latest. Why? Because they will have no choice. It is mathematically impossible for the planet to continue to sustain a meat-based diet beyond a few more decades. Mathematically impossible.

So whether they like it or not, people are going to have to change if they want to leave behind a planet for their children and grandchilcren.

Many people who have tried veganism have failed, what are they supposed to do, beat themselves up over it?

No. Simply get educated. There are reasons why they failed and we now know what those reasons are. The early vegans were pioneers. There has been a learning curve, no doubt. 26 years ago I had the confidence to raise my son vegetarian, but not vegan. If I had a child now, of course I'd raise him vegan. I now have plenty of confidence and plenty of resources to know how to do it right. I didn't back then.

We now have doctors reversing heart disease, cancer, diabetes and all sorts of things by getting their patients on a vegan diet. It's well documented, and even Medicare accepts the vegan lifestyle program and has 50+ hospitals offering it. Dr. Gabriel Cousens boasts a virtually 100% success rate with people who previously 'failed' at being vegan but still want to do it, for spiritual or ethical reasons. By working with thousands of people, he has discovered that certain metabolic types do better with different types of vegan diets. Anyone - ANYONE - can thrive on a vegan diet! This has been clinically proven. BUT not everyone has the same metabolic type, so it's a simple matter of making some minor adjustments.

I think that knowing your farmer, buying local harvest is a really important way to change the system. Anything that we can do economically to avoid supporting the corporate and profit driven food system helps.

Yes, that is important too. But quitting meat is the single most important first step. The meat industry is the insatiable monster that drives everything...it is the reason so many farmers have sold out to corporate in the first place.

[native]

When you say we use each other, I see it more as being interdependent, we are one Body. We support one another, ideally. Equal exchange and give and take. Some may give more and others less, but as a unit , it works out.

That is how it is with my hens. I feed and nourish them, and they provide me food. Equal exchange, symbiosis. They are cute and funny creatures. When I reach in for the eggs, when a hen is sitting on them, she just gently gets up and makes her eggs available to me. Chickens were bred for this very purpose and have nourished humans for a very long time.

Being thankful for what sustains us is a good way to go, I agree with Katz on that one.

Cool note about your hens. I agree that we are interdependent, but I was using highly contrasted language to make the same point that Monica was making. While we might "use" others to kill animals for us, we also use others to do all sorts of things we don't want to do. But as you said, we don't have to look at it that way..it's interdependence and functioning as a unit.

And Monica, since you agree that one realistic goal is for meat eaters to drastically cut meat consumption, those who have the courage to slaughter (humanely raised/slaughtered) can then be seen as filling a necessary role, and there is no need to demonize them..because eating meat just isn't going to disappear anytime soon. People don't consider the value of new viewpoints if they're made to feel bad about themselves (meat eaters in general). We should then be thankful for those who do the things we're not able to do..positive interpretation, positive energy sent. But I feel I may have overstepped my boundaries in offering that..my apologies. To move forward, we have to learn how to respect each other and each other's needs, recognizing that we're all on different parts of the path in our journey.

[caycegal]

"Unbound," you like the story about the grass screaming and that works for you. I prefer a story about the grass rejoicing as we mix our energy. I feel the plants rejoicing, and I rejoice that the earth produces everything we need. In my mind there are gardens and parks in every city where people can pick the weeds and make salads from them, pick the fruits and nuts from the trees and take them home.

I long to see the day when we consume the weeds instead of poisoning them.

Regarding B-12, I use methylcobalimine, rather than cyanobobalimine (not sure about spelling) just because the idea of something synthesized with any form of cyanide doesn't work for me. Also we consume kefir and yogurt, which have some B-12, and the occasional fish, so we are not vegan.

Some of our supplements come from animal sources.

[Monica]

And Monica, since you agree that one realistic goal is for meat eaters to drastically cut meat consumption, those who have the courage to slaughter (humanely raised/slaughtered) can then be seen as filling a necessary role, and there is no need to demonize them..because eating meat just isn't going to disappear anytime soon.

I have repeatedly acknowledged that not torturing animals before killing them is a vast improvement over torturing them before killing them. But those who 'humanely' (sic) slaughter animals seem to be seeking some sort of approval for what they do, and that is asking too much. The slave 'owners' (sic) who didn't beat their slaves were undoubtedly not as culpable as those who did, but we would never say that slavery is ok just because the 'slaves' weren't being beaten!

Also, I've read multiple accounts of people who quit eating animals because of the atrocities in factory farms, but then started eating animals again when they learned of the so-called 'humane' meat.

'Humanely slaughtered' is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. It's just less heinous than torturing before slaughtering.

Eradicating all factory farms in favor of traditional farms (cows contentedly grazing) won't happen because there simply isn't enough land to do that and still satisfy billions of humans' lust for animal flesh. It isn't profitable nor is it sustainable. So the whole idea of 'humane' or 'grass fed' meat is a minor improvement for a small percentage of animals, at best.

I'm just not going to applaud people who kill without torturing, any more than I would applaud slave 'owners' who didn't beat their 'slaves.' Let the 'slaves' FREE!

People don't consider the value of new viewpoints if they're made to feel bad about themselves (meat eaters in general).

Eating apples is STS!!!

We should then be thankful for those who do the things we're not able to do..positive interpretation, positive energy sent.

Hiring a plumber because we don't have plumbing skills isn't the same as hiring someone to kill for us. When we hire killers to do the dirty work we aren't willing to do ourselves, we are still responsible for the killing. That is the reality, every time anyone buys meat.

But I feel I may have overstepped my boundaries in offering that..my apologies.

Gosh, no apology needed! I appreciate your input!

(Ironic...I get an apology from someone who was never rude to me, but not from those who were. ??)

To move forward, we have to learn how to respect each other and each other's needs, recognizing that we're all on different parts of the path in our journey.

Absolutely! It's a delicate balancing act though, when there are victims involved.