Why I am not a vegan

[Monica]

To truely evolve one must recognise and integrate the dark aspects of ones nature.

Integrate, yes.

Express, no.

We are in the density of Choice.

I am obviously not recommending that you go out and start culling, rather that the 'killer' is simply acknowledged.

Acknowledgement is necessary for that which is suppressed.

But the killer isn't suppressed. The killer is expressed, blatantly. The killer is alive and well on Planet Earth. The killer is thriving. The killer is in control. The killer feeds on the fear and pain of BILLIONS of beings every day.

The killer is already expressed. The killer doesn't need any more acknowledgement. The killer has had his day.

Maybe that's why I sense so much 'hate' in the words of many who encourage the vegan/veggie lifestyle.

I feel no hate. None. Zero.

Sadness, yes. Frustration at times, yes. Grief for the beings who are suffering, yes.

Hatred, no.

Perhaps you misinterpret.

[Diana]

To truely evolve one must recognise and integrate the dark aspects of ones nature.

I agree with this.

I am obviously not recommending that you go out and start culling, rather that the 'killer' is simply acknowledged.
Maybe that's why I sense so much 'hate' in the words of many who encourage the vegan/veggie lifestyle.

Hate? Hate?!

Hate is the last thing I feel in regards to this. Sorrow, sadness, despair . . . yes. Hate . . . no.

I feel love and compassion for the animals being tortured and killed because humans must have their taste buds, and predatory unconscious instincts, indulged.

Where do you get hate from this scenario? If anything, I can admit to frustration (certainly never HATE!) with those who claim to be wanderers or those seeking the spiritual paths who do not acknowledge the obvious! ramifications of torturing and killing animals for food. But not hate.

[Unbound]

What are those ramifications exactly?

[Diana]

What are those ramifications exactly?

You ingest the physical results of the animals' fear and pain (hormones released when slaughtered and also a lifetime of living in compromised circumstances).

You ingest the energetic fear and other feelings not derived from love and care.

The concept of karma, or cause and effect, or what goes around comes around (I don't think karma would only apply to humans and how we treat each other). I am not suggesting that anything is "wrong." I am suggesting that if one is eating meat, one is closer to predator/prey behavior.

For those seeking spiritual evolution, it seems like a no-brainer to me that one would want to move toward higher states of consciousness. Keeping the body, mind, and spirit weighed down with food derived in the manner meat is, from beings obviously in pain and suffering or at least not wanting to die to feed us (this is easy to counter by saying that their souls agree, but that does not negate the fact that if you watch you will know at least the 3D part of them does not want to be slaughtered), seems counterproductive to the spiritual path. I am not alone in this idea; look at how many spiritual leaders and gurus etc. abstain from meat.

Of course, this is obvious to me, and is my opinion only. And the above points may just circle back to the argument that it is the same with plants. While the general idea that all life is sacred is solid, in this case it really seems crazy to me that any human here could compare the two ways of eating and come up with the idea that eating meat is the same as eating plants in terms of compassion (which is not to say there is no cruelty in commercial vegetable farming).

[Unbound]

Okay, so what is the bad thing about ingesting those things? What do you mean by "weighed down"? How does your body, mind and spirit take on that suffering or process that energy? Are you saying we are eating their souls? How is that different from eating plants?

---

Also why is predator/prey behaviour "lesser" than whatever behaviour you apparently exhibit by ingesting only plants?

I would add that just because "spiritual leaders and gurus" do something doesn't in any way mean it is the "right" thing to do.

[Diana]

Good questions, Unbound. I am off to a meeting and won't be back until late tonight. I will answer then.

[Monica]

Okay, so what is the bad thing about ingesting those things? What do you mean by "weighed down"? How does your body, mind and spirit take on that suffering or process that energy?

Those questions are all from the perspective of 'me.'

Come to think of it, most of the comments from the meat-eaters have all been from the perspective of 'me.' Here are some examples of the recurring themes:

I like the taste of meat
I can just bless the meat and it won't bother me.
How will eating meat affect me?
You are trying to control me.
I eat meat and you can't stop me.

Are you saying we are eating their souls?

No, their souls live on...traumatized.

How is that different from eating plants?

Tear some leaves off a lettuce plants.

Tear a leg off a cow with your bare hands and teeth only.

Compare.

Also why is predator/prey behaviour "lesser" than whatever behaviour you apparently exhibit by ingesting only plants?

What do you think of humans' predatory behavior? Is it ok for a human to prey upon a smaller, weaker human? Is it ok to hurt a child, for example?

I would add that just because "spiritual leaders and gurus" do something doesn't in any way mean it is the "right" thing to do.

I would agree in the case of phony religious leaders, but genuine spiritual leaders tend to teach love, peace, forgiveness, nonviolence and compassion. These same themes recur again and again, in all the higher spiritual teachings, including the Law of One. That is significant.

[Billy]

Why did the Logos design the world like this in the first place? By it's very nature the world seems unjust and quite cruel. It seems to breed bellicosity and aggression. Why is the world the way that it is?

[Unbound]

Okay, so what is the bad thing about ingesting those things? What do you mean by "weighed down"? How does your body, mind and spirit take on that suffering or process that energy?

Those questions are all from the perspective of 'me.'

Come to think of it, most of the comments from the meat-eaters have all been from the perspective of 'me.' Here are some examples of the recurring themes:

I like the taste of meat
I can just bless the meat and it won't bother me.
How will eating meat affect me?
You are trying to control me.
I eat meat and you can't stop me.

Are you saying we are eating their souls?

No, their souls live on...traumatized.

How is that different from eating plants?

Tear some leaves off a lettuce plants.

Tear a leg off a cow with your bare hands and teeth only.

Compare.

Also why is predator/prey behaviour "lesser" than whatever behaviour you apparently exhibit by ingesting only plants?

What do you think of humans' predatory behavior? Is it ok for a human to prey upon a smaller, weaker human? Is it ok to hurt a child, for example?

I would add that just because "spiritual leaders and gurus" do something doesn't in any way mean it is the "right" thing to do.

I would agree in the case of phony religious leaders, but genuine spiritual leaders tend to teach love, peace, forgiveness, nonviolence and compassion. These same themes recur again and again, in all the higher spiritual teachings, including the Law of One. That is significant.

Holy hyperbole, no offense, but I don't have any desire to respond to you.

---

I know you're just trying to make a point, but you come across so fanatical and ridiculous that I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall with every response. Thanks, but no thanks, we do not get anywhere discussing these particular things, I am opting to discuss with others instead. I am well aware of your perspective and it does not need to be reiterated to me at this point in time.

---

Why did the Logos design the world like this in the first place? By it's very nature the world seems unjust and quite cruel. It seems to breed bellicosity and aggression. Why is the world the way that it is?

Really heavy veiling.

[Billy]

What for? Experience? It seems that experience is valued over the well being of the inhabitants of the planet. Doesn't seem particularly loving to me. What kind of a parent does that.

[Unbound]

Apparently to make it more likely that entities will form a bias towards service to self or service to others. It is supposed to accelerate or catalyze the making of the choice of third density. This is so we are able to continue evolving and progress rather than being perpetually stuck in 3D until so many lives, over and over, that we finally form a bias. This enables us to leave 3D much faster, and while it is indeed much more intense, vivid and difficult, it allows us to make the 3D choice without taking a huge number of lives.

[Billy]

Apparently to make it more likely that entities will form a bias towards service to self or service to others. It is supposed to accelerate or catalyze the making of the choice of third density. This is so we are able to continue evolving and progress rather than being perpetually stuck in 3D until so many lives, over and over, that we finally form a bias. This enables us to leave 3D much faster, and while it is indeed much more intense, vivid and difficult, it allows us to make the 3D choice without taking a huge number of lives.

But people haven't made the choice it seems. It seems that this experiment has failed and all we have to show for it is an immense amount of suffering. The logos just seems like a big jerk from my limited perspective. What about all the other 3d planets in the universe? Do they have such a heavy veil? Eh whatever's

[Unbound]

It seems some do and some don't, I'm not sure exactly but I don't think it's really the fault of the Logos because it opted to give us free will, so the state of the planet is really a product of the free will of beings. In the Ra Material they say there was a time before the veiling when 3D lives still had complete awareness of Oneness with the Creator. They say that because they were too blissful all the time, they never gained any particular bias towards serving others or serving themselves, as all was just serving the Creator. The veil was actually developed over time and I believe it is generated by a particular entity or group of entities.

As you said, people haven't made the choice, and that is why there is such an immense amount of suffering. The experiment hasn't failed as we haven't obliterated all life on the planet so far, the experiment is still under way which is what I think most have a hard time grasping. Many only seem to view it from the timescale of their own lifetime but this is a much vaster process we have all been in for many lives (well not eeeveryone, but most). At least, all from the Ra Material perspective as I understand it.

There are, of course, tons and tons of explanations from all sorts of schools of thought.

In my mind, suffering is part of a polarity, a duality. What might the opposite of suffering be?

[Billy]

Does the Creator need our suffering? What is wrong with not wanting to suffer anymore? It just seems that for as long as you are here in 3d you are subject to the law of impermanence. Each experience must be balanced by its opposite. Ehh I'm just venting. Am quite fed up along with feelings of guilt for not seeing life as a gift but a burden. Well I've detailed this thread enough.

[Ashim]

I would agree in the case of phony religious leaders, but genuine spiritual leaders tend to teach love, peace, forgiveness, nonviolence and compassion. These same themes recur again and again, in all the higher spiritual teachings, including the Law of One. That is significant.

So what you are saying is that a genuine spiritual leader of the negative polarity can not exist?

The Law of One allows this by definition.

Why does 'geniune' not include the dark?

[Unbound]

Does the Creator need our suffering? What is wrong with not wanting to suffer anymore? It just seems that for as long as you are here in 3d you are subject to the law of impermanence. Each experience must be balanced by its opposite. Ehh I'm just venting. Am quite fed up along with feelings of guilt for not seeing life as a gift but a burden. Well I've detailed this thread enough.

The Creator doesn't need or not need anything. Everything is the experience of the Creator. The question is what part of the Creator's experience are you engaged in? I, personally, choose not to dwell on or in suffering. Yes, suffering exists, but so does anything and everything else.

Apparently the veiling causes negative interpretations to be more alluring or drawing to the mind.

---

(Also, that is not in negligence of the suffering that exists, but I choose not to add myself to the pool of suffering.)

[Billy]

Does the Creator need our suffering? What is wrong with not wanting to suffer anymore? It just seems that for as long as you are here in 3d you are subject to the law of impermanence. Each experience must be balanced by its opposite. Ehh I'm just venting. Am quite fed up along with feelings of guilt for not seeing life as a gift but a burden. Well I've detailed this thread enough.

The Creator doesn't need or not need anything. Everything is the experience of the Creator. The question is what part of the Creator's experience are you engaged in? I, personally, choose not to dwell on or in suffering. Yes, suffering exists, but so does anything and everything else.

Apparently the veiling causes negative interpretations to be more alluring or drawing to the mind.

---

(Also, that is not in negligence of the suffering that exists, but I choose not to add myself to the pool of suffering.)

How? I prefer not to suffer but even happiness isn't all that alluring to me either. Maybe I'm just feeling sorry for myself but I don't even want to exist.

[Unbound]

Does the Creator need our suffering? What is wrong with not wanting to suffer anymore? It just seems that for as long as you are here in 3d you are subject to the law of impermanence. Each experience must be balanced by its opposite. Ehh I'm just venting. Am quite fed up along with feelings of guilt for not seeing life as a gift but a burden. Well I've detailed this thread enough.

The Creator doesn't need or not need anything. Everything is the experience of the Creator. The question is what part of the Creator's experience are you engaged in? I, personally, choose not to dwell on or in suffering. Yes, suffering exists, but so does anything and everything else.

Apparently the veiling causes negative interpretations to be more alluring or drawing to the mind.

---

(Also, that is not in negligence of the suffering that exists, but I choose not to add myself to the pool of suffering.)

How? I prefer not to suffer but even happiness isn't all that alluring to me either. Maybe I'm just feeling sorry for myself but I don't even want to exist.

Then you have to ask yourself why you find yourself so insufferable. That is the easiest way to suffer, to want to escape the self.

For myself, I have been suicidal and back and the biggest thing for me was realize that there is no point in the idea of "escape", the notion itself is a poison. What purpose is there to longing for what is not? Few there are nowadays brave enough to live with themselves.

---

The mind is polarized, everything is dual. Suffering and enjoyment are the same thing in different degrees.

[Shemaya]

Unbound, great answers! wow!

Hi Folklove,

I just wanted to add that I think much of our suffering can be alleviated by a re identification with who we truly are. We are Light - beings. Most of us misidentify with our vehicle, our body. In duality, we can have a physical body and experience energy from the highest high to the lowest low. Great suffering and immense joy. But it is energy and it continually changes form. Instead of identifying with the suffering, "I am suffering" realize that it is only energy and will pass, let it flow through you.

For me that has meant a process of working with my emotions. Letting them move and flow rather than getting stuck. The process removes energetic blockages in your light body so that more of your consciousness/ spirit can be present in the vehicle.

I am not denying the suffering or the awful conditions we have created under the veil, but putting in another perspective. As you said, it is really really bad here . But I think that is why we came. Earth is such a beautiful planet and we want her and her children lifted up out of darkness. We wanted to help. To uplift the earth and humanity in any way we can. I think the 2D creatures will come along as humanity ascends, that is why I focus my work on uplifting humans.

As humans become more conscious, the awareness increases and the violence and suffering naturally falls away. And then we can create the Garden that Earth was meant to be.

[Jade]

The Law of One teaches that 3D suffering is the center of the work of other densities. Without us crying out for help, what would Ra be doing with themselves? Suffering creates work to be done. Without suffering, there are no villains and no heroes. Those of us on planet Earth have a particularly difficult job. All actions, good and bad, serve the creator.

78.21 ▶ Questioner: You stated previously that The Choice that is made in this density, third density, is the axis upon which the creation turns. Could you expand on your reason for making that statement?

Ra: I am Ra. This is a statement of the nature of creation as we speak to you.

78.22 ▶ Questioner: I did not understand that. Could you say that in a different way?

Ra: I am Ra. As you have noted, the creation of which your Logos is a part is a protean entity which grows and learns upon a macrocosmic scale. The Logos is not a part of time. All that is learned from experience in an octave is, therefore, the harvest of that Logos and is further the nature of that Logos.

The original Logos’s experience was, viewed in space/time, small; Its experience now, more. Therefore we say, as we now speak to you at this space/time, the nature of creation is as we have described. This does not deny the process by which this nature has been achieved but merely ratifies the product.

...

78.24 ▶ Questioner: This is a hard question just to ask, but what is the function or what is the value experientially of the formation of positive and negative social memory complexes, of the separation of the polarities at that point rather than the allowing for the mixing of mind/body/spirit complexes of opposite polarity at the higher densities?

Ra: I am Ra. The purpose of polarity is to develop the potential to do work. This is the great characteristic of those, shall we say, experiments which have evolved since the concept of The Choice was appreciated. Work is done far more efficiently and with greater purity, intensity, and variety by the voluntary searching of mind/body/spirit complexes for the lessons of third and fourth densities. The action of fifth density is, viewed in space/time, the same with or without polarity. However, viewed in time/space, the experiences of wisdom are greatly enlarged and deepened due, again, to the voluntary nature of polarized mind/body/spirit action.

78.25 ▶ Questioner: Then you are saying as a result of the polarization in consciousness that has occurred later in the galactic evolution, that the experiences are much more, shall I say, profound or deeper along the two paths. Are these experiences independent of the other path or must there be action across the potentiated difference between the positive and negative polarity, or is it possible to have this experience simply because of the single polarity? This is difficult to ask.

Ra: I am Ra. We would agree. We shall attempt to pluck the gist of your query from the surrounding verbiage.

The fourth and fifth densities are quite independent, the positive polarity functioning with no need of negative and vice-versa. It is to be noted that in attempting to sway third-density mind/body/spirit complexes in choosing polarity there evolves a good bit of interaction between the two polarities. In sixth density, the density of unity, the positive and negative paths must needs take in each other for all now must be seen as love/light and light/love. This is not difficult for the positive polarity, which sends love and light to all other-selves. It is difficult enough for service-to-self polarized entities that at some point the negative polarity is abandoned.

[seven]

I don't know how many of you are acquainted with Oahspe, but here's some passages from the scripture that could be of interest:

Herb-food for man cultivateth the negative condition; flesh-food for man increaseth the positive: Which is to say, flesh-food carrieth man away from prophecy; away from spirituality. A nation of meat-eaters will always culminate in disbelievers in spirituality; and they become addicted to corporeal passions. Such men can not understand; to them the world is vanity and vexation, if poor; or, if rich, a place to revel in for lust's sake.

23. Oan (Panic). Faith in man only. Sign, two men leaning against each other. Persons who have risen in intelligence, but not in Es. Faith in man only. One who believes man is the highest of all things in the world. One who believes there is no person or thing of personality but man. They being Oans indulged in ____, although they were men only, saying: There is none above us to see us or to command (Fus). They said: Shall I not indulge in whatsoever I choose, being an Oan? (Chine.) Onan, one whose philosophy is in his own conceit; an indulgence (Kii). I do solemnly swear before this order, Oan, that I will never pray to, nor ejaculate to, nor of, nor for any person, save man; and especially not to the Gods nor Lords of heaven, nor to the Unknown, and Imperishable. (Rite of Sodom.) Ho'an, that that leads to Ugh'sa, particularly lust. The impulse of the flesh they called the highest, M'oa (Gau). They threw aside their clothes, going naked like the A'su of old, saying: Is not all indulgence my heritage? (Miac.) They fell from industry and decency, saying: We shall have no forms nor rites, being free. And they became the prey of spirits of idleness and lust, who feast on sinful mortals (Egypt). Spirits of lust came to the Onans and reclothed themselves in mortal forms and indulged in lust with them, and Moses forbade them from coming amongst his people. (Aribania.) The Cow'ans said: Let us go stealthily to the tent of Moses and his priests and learn the secret of his spirit power. The Cow'ans said: Why shall man follow Moses? Are not the spirits who come to us as good as his? (Akia.) Yo'anyi said: If I love meat I will eat meat; if I love strong drink I will have strong drink; if I love sexual indulgence then will I have sexual indulgence. Who can restrain me? Are not my desires well created? I should not deny them? (Vede.) And the druks came upon the Yo'anyi, for their philosophy had divided them amongst themselves, one against another, and their progeny became Tur'anyi (Turanian).

28. O man of the earth, consider what thou puttest into thy mouth, for the atmosphere thereof is the food of thy spirit. And the habit thereof will be entailed on thy spirit for a long season after thy mortal death.
29. If thou hast been a gross feeder on flesh, thy spirit will seek to linger in the atmosphere of gross feeders still dwelling on the earth. The slaughter-house and the cook-house and the eating-house shall be the places of thy spirit's resort.
30. And thy spirit shall feed therein and thereon; and thy companions shall be millions and millions of drujas; like vultures that flock to a dead carcass, and thou can not away; like a loadstone, are these haunts to the spirits of darkness.
31. O man, I have heard thee, in thy fullness, say: I must have my flesh-food; I must have my wine and beer and tobacco and opium.
32. I say unto thee, if thou hast not strength in this day, neither shalt thou have strength tomorrow. What strength shall thou gain by the loss of thy corporeal body?
33. Consider thy corporeal body as a ship, in which thy spirit is sailing across a wide sea of water. Better that thy spirit learn to acquire strength whilst it hath a corporeal body to ride in. After death, it floateth in the direction thou hast shaped it. Neither hast thou power to go against the current.
34. Remember, O man, these are the lessons of thy Creator, which he gave unto thee, to learn to master the elements of thy surrounding.

Personally though: I try to keep my diet simple, as I believe in simplifying things. I see food as colors. Meat is a complex color, brown/gray, composed of different materials. A vegan diet has a broader palette and allows you to gain a deeper understanding of bodily constructs.

In the light of that, I want to share this video, We Are Mineralites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDVDR331q5M

[isis]

i'm tired of this thread

i think if i were oh let's say a cow that had been tortured my whole life, & then killed in an inhumane way, i wouldn't want anyone to shun me & not eat me just bc of my misfortunes - especially if they love the taste of meat. being the infinite being(cow) that i am, i would say, 'forgive & forget & be thankful & give your blessing for this meat that i have made possible for u to have. savor the taste as much as u can & thank u for letting me make u happy & providing u with nutrition & for allowing me to become a part of u despite my unfortunate life circumstances - that i very well may have chosen for myself. go forth & have faith all is well despite how things seem.'

[Diana]

I don't know how many of you are acquainted with Oahspe, but here's some passages from the scripture that could be of interest:

28. O man of the earth, consider what thou puttest into thy mouth, for the atmosphere thereof is the food of thy spirit. And the habit thereof will be entailed on thy spirit for a long season after thy mortal death.
29. If thou hast been a gross feeder on flesh, thy spirit will seek to linger in the atmosphere of gross feeders still dwelling on the earth. The slaughter-house and the cook-house and the eating-house shall be the places of thy spirit's resort.
30. And thy spirit shall feed therein and thereon; and thy companions shall be millions and millions of drujas; like vultures that flock to a dead carcass, and thou can not away; like a loadstone, are these haunts to the spirits of darkness.
31. O man, I have heard thee, in thy fullness, say: I must have my flesh-food; I must have my wine and beer and tobacco and opium.
32. I say unto thee, if thou hast not strength in this day, neither shalt thou have strength tomorrow. What strength shall thou gain by the loss of thy corporeal body?
33. Consider thy corporeal body as a ship, in which thy spirit is sailing across a wide sea of water. Better that thy spirit learn to acquire strength whilst it hath a corporeal body to ride in. After death, it floateth in the direction thou hast shaped it. Neither hast thou power to go against the current.
34. Remember, O man, these are the lessons of thy Creator, which he gave unto thee, to learn to master the elements of thy surrounding.

Personally though: I try to keep my diet simple, as I believe in simplifying things. I see food as colors. Meat is a complex color, brown/gray, composed of different materials. A vegan diet has a broader palette and allows you to gain a deeper understanding of bodily constructs.

I love the above Oahspe quote. Thank you. It speaks to what I will try to say about meat-eating not being conducive to spiritual seeking (at least in some ways).

I also choose food for colors. And I find your take on this very interesting regarding the complexity and simplicity of the colors.

[Spaced]

From this weeks L/Lresearch newsletter (originally channeled on October 16, 2010 http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._1016.aspx ):

Now, how shall an entity whose consciousness is that of pure love feed its body? We notice that you focus upon meat and the eating of it as the arena of choice. And before we address that question we would note that not only the animals but the plants also are growing within the creation of the Father, blooming and dying at a rhythm of their own. In a very real way, it is as much of an offense, one may say, to pluck a bean or dig a potato from the ground as it is to slaughter an animal, for you have interrupted the cycle of its life and its dancing with the Creator as you do so. But to focus upon this is to digress from your query. And so we would focus upon the slaughter of animals and the responsibility that an entity has if he chooses to eat meat.

One valid choice that many of those who have awakened have made is not to eat meat and to find ways to furnish the body with the protein that meat offers by eating other substances, such as legumes, which contain protein. [1]

Another choice that an awakened entity has, as the questioner said, is to move to the purchase only of meats that have been humanely slaughtered. There are two sources of such meats that are generally available to entities within a reasonable amount of distance from where they live. One is to seek out a kosher store [2] which sells meat, knowing that the priests of that religion have treated animals well and have slaughtered them in a sacred ritual which is taken most seriously by those priests.

The other is to find a biodynamic source where the same feeling of sacredness surrounds the appreciation of mammals while they live and the humane slaughter of them when it is time for them to feed their humans.

And as the one known as J said, barring those choices, there is always the metaphysically correct choice of relating to the animal in that timeless condition which is called “metaphysical time” wherein all things occur simultaneously, so that you are able to contact any animal, before you eat it, no matter how abused or how slaughtered. And as you contact this animal, you express your love of this animal and your appreciation for all that the animal has gone through in order to give you its energy, its consciousness, such as it is, and its love, which is very real. So, in praise, prayer and thanksgiving you heal the division between you and the meat and the animal from which that meat came.

And as you do this to your meat, dancing with the meat, becoming one with the meat, you are in effect lifting that energy to the infinite Creator, blessing it and healing all that has gone before, for the animal and for you.

Indeed, we would note that it is not only the eating of meat, but every single action undertaken by you, no matter how humble or small, that has the capability and potentiality of becoming sacred, so that you at all times are giving thanks, offering praise, and opening to the experiences that have been given to you to walk in.

"Dancing with the meat"

[Diana]

Okay, so what is the bad thing about ingesting those things? What do you mean by "weighed down"? How does your body, mind and spirit take on that suffering or process that energy?

First, I'm not saying anything is bad. "Good" and "bad" are relative and subjective terms. What I am saying is that ingesting meat is not conducive to spiritual seeking (if that seeking is STO in nature—STS in nature such as black magic or voodoo feeds off taking life sometimes).

On a purely physiological level, when one consumes meat from an animal, one consumes the stress hormones (like cortisol) released in the animal's body when the animal was in fear and pain—fight-or-flight—before and during the slaughter. Also, the lifetime of stress levels would have kept the animal releasing protein chains of "discontented" feelings rather than beta-endorphins released from "contentedness."

One consumes these hormones and protein chains along with the meat. Fear, pain, terror, discontent are represented in these body chemicals.
By ingesting them, one adds to one's own store of these things. Those who are trying to reach peaceful, calm, balanced states of being may have a difficult enough time simply dealing with their own fears etc. Add the daily consumption of meat, and they are "weighing themselves down" with more fear to deal with.

This would be true on the physical and energetic levels. Dr. Emoto proved how even a written word could affect the matrix of water cells.

Are you saying we are eating their souls? How is that different from eating plants?

---

No I'm not say we are eating their souls. And there is so much difference between eating animals and plants I am flummoxed as to how to continue to explain it. I refer you to Jade's take on this several posts back, which I reposted as a good explanation of this difference.

In my mind, this world we live in now is no more of an illusion than anything else. This is as real as everything. Real, illusion, who cares? That's an academic question, and frankly rhetorical, because we don't really know s**t about it—just speculation.

Regardless of whether you agree with my working theory, the fact remains that this existence is where this part of our consciousnesses are, right now, in this linear time construct. It can't be denied (well, it can be as you or anyone wishes, but I am talking objectively) that we would then deal with this world. People may want to deny this existence and say we are just light bodies and our physical bodies mean nothing, but I personally think this thinking is irresponsible, lazy, and cowardly. It's hard to be here, but imagining none of it matters is sheer folly to me.

In this 3D world, we KNOW the animals suffer. Many say plants do too. I think this is reasonable. However, in 3D, plants are designed to propagate through their fruits and seeds being eaten. They MAKE food. Compare that to the slaughterhouse. The difference between takng animal life and plant life, here, in 3D, where our consciousnesses are awake and functioning, is obviously different.

So, I am here now, at least some part of me. This is what I'm dealing with now. I don't deny it. I may have chosen it. I am endeavoring to reach my potential here.

Causing harm here, when one is aware of it, and it's not necessary, may serve the STS being. I have no judgments about that, only sadness for the recipients of the harm.

Also why is predator/prey behaviour "lesser" than whatever behaviour you apparently exhibit by ingesting only plants?

Predator/prey behavior is exhibited naturally in the animal kingdom. So it is 2D natural behavior. Without individuation, and then learning cause and effect, leading to compassion (or in Ra terms, choosing between STO and STS), predator/prey behavior is about survival. It is a smaller scope of awareness. In order to expand awareness, consciousness must become aware of more and greater views of existence.

The idea, to me, is to evolve. I personally want to evolve in an STO way. I don't want to take the life of an animal who obviously doesn't want to be killed and eaten. On the other hand, the plant kingdom is offering up their seeds and fruit, which benefits them, as food. Taking the food from plants removes me from predator/prey. I have now evolved a little further away from the animal kingdom toward the light being I imagine I could be at some point. (This is not to say I think the animal kingdom is lesser than the human kingdom.)

I would add that just because "spiritual leaders and gurus" do something doesn't in any way mean it is the "right" thing to do.

I agree. I always promote free thinking. And just as "good and bad" are relative and subjective, so are "right and wrong." However, it's worth looking at the numbers of spiritual leaders who promote abstaining fro meat. Why would this concept be so ubiquitous?

[Monica]

I would agree in the case of phony religious leaders, but genuine spiritual leaders tend to teach love, peace, forgiveness, nonviolence and compassion. These same themes recur again and again, in all the higher spiritual teachings, including the Law of One. That is significant.

So what you are saying is that a genuine spiritual leader of the negative polarity can not exist?

The Law of One allows this by definition.

Why does 'geniune' not include the dark?

Oops, sorry, I did it again! I often forget that not everyone here at B4 is choosing the STO path. Yes, absolutely, the STS path is valid. I just don't concern myself with it so I sometimes forget to include them. I assumed that people here at B4 prefer to emulate STO spiritual teachers, rather than STS spiritual teachers.

[Diana]

Taken from the Q'uo quote Spaced posted:

In a very real way, it is as much of an offense, one may say, to pluck a bean or dig a potato from the ground as it is to slaughter an animal, for you have interrupted the cycle of its life and its dancing with the Creator as you do so.

Strictly speaking, when looking at one aspect of this statement and one only, it is true. If the potato plant just lives, produces fruit, and the fruits die in the ground, and then the plant dies, the plant has been left to its own natural cycle. But, has anyone harvested a potato? I have. It's part of the root system and you can dig out a potato and the plant keeps producing and living.

In my opinion, Q'uo's statement is misleading and frankly ridiculous, and I don't agree with it. Some may revere any channeled messages thinking the information is somehow better than our own. It's not that the sentiments in the whole quote, and session, were not of value. But to say these things—slaughtered animals and plucked beans—are the same is simply not true.

The life cycle of a plant is HELPED by taking its fruit or seed. Even bees help this process by spreading the pollen. Without bees, and humans have interrupted that life cycle to a dangerous point, the plants will disappear. (Would it make sense to just destroy everything but wish it love and transmute the suffering after? Why not just not destroy and still wish it love?) Plants are able to live on and have children because an ambulatory being takes the food they are offering. It's symbiosis—win-win. You cannot take a part of an animal and the animal lives or thrives—try cutting off a leg.

To say it's the same is irresponsible in my opinion. Humans can be easily lead.

[Unbound]

Okay, so what is the bad thing about ingesting those things? What do you mean by "weighed down"? How does your body, mind and spirit take on that suffering or process that energy?

First, I'm not saying anything is bad. "Good" and "bad" are relative and subjective terms. What I am saying is that ingesting meat is not conducive to spiritual seeking (if that seeking is STO in nature—STS in nature such as black magic or voodoo feeds off taking life sometimes).

On a purely physiological level, when one consumes meat from an animal, one consumes the stress hormones (like cortisol) released in the animal's body when the animal was in fear and pain—fight-or-flight—before and during the slaughter. Also, the lifetime of stress levels would have kept the animal releasing protein chains of "discontented" feelings rather than beta-endorphins released from "contentedness."

One consumes these hormones and protein chains along with the meat. Fear, pain, terror, discontent are represented in these body chemicals.
By ingesting them, one adds to one's own store of these things. Those who are trying to reach peaceful, calm, balanced states of being may have a difficult enough time simply dealing with their own fears etc. Add the daily consumption of meat, and they are "weighing themselves down" with more fear to deal with.

This would be true on the physical and energetic levels. Dr. Emoto proved how even a written word could affect the matrix of water cells.

Are you saying we are eating their souls? How is that different from eating plants?

---

No I'm not say we are eating their souls. And there is so much difference between eating animals and plants I am flummoxed as to how to continue to explain it. I refer you to Jade's take on this several posts back, which I reposted as a good explanation of this difference.

In my mind, this world we live in now is no more of an illusion than anything else. This is as real as everything. Real, illusion, who cares? That's an academic question, and frankly rhetorical, because we don't really know s**t about it—just speculation.

Regardless of whether you agree with my working theory, the fact remains that this existence is where this part of our consciousnesses are, right now, in this linear time construct. It can't be denied (well, it can be as you or anyone wishes, but I am talking objectively) that we would then deal with this world. People may want to deny this existence and say we are just light bodies and our physical bodies mean nothing, but I personally think this thinking is irresponsible, lazy, and cowardly. It's hard to be here, but imagining none of it matters is sheer folly to me.

In this 3D world, we KNOW the animals suffer. Many say plants do too. I think this is reasonable. However, in 3D, plants are designed to propagate through their fruits and seeds being eaten. They MAKE food. Compare that to the slaughterhouse. The difference between takng animal life and plant life, here, in 3D, where our consciousnesses are awake and functioning, is obviously different.

So, I am here now, at least some part of me. This is what I'm dealing with now. I don't deny it. I may have chosen it. I am endeavoring to reach my potential here.

Causing harm here, when one is aware of it, and it's not necessary, may serve the STS being. I have no judgments about that, only sadness for the recipients of the harm.

Also why is predator/prey behaviour "lesser" than whatever behaviour you apparently exhibit by ingesting only plants?

Predator/prey behavior is exhibited naturally in the animal kingdom. So it is 2D natural behavior. Without individuation, and then learning cause and effect, leading to compassion (or in Ra terms, choosing between STO and STS), predator/prey behavior is about survival. It is a smaller scope of awareness. In order to expand awareness, consciousness must become aware of more and greater views of existence.

The idea, to me, is to evolve. I personally want to evolve in an STO way. I don't want to take the life of an animal who obviously doesn't want to be killed and eaten. On the other hand, the plant kingdom is offering up their seeds and fruit, which benefits them, as food. Taking the food from plants removes me from predator/prey. I have now evolved a little further away from the animal kingdom toward the light being I imagine I could be at some point. (This is not to say I think the animal kingdom is lesser than the human kingdom.)

I would add that just because "spiritual leaders and gurus" do something doesn't in any way mean it is the "right" thing to do.

I agree. I always promote free thinking. And just as "good and bad" are relative and subjective, so are "right and wrong." However, it's worth looking at the numbers of spiritual leaders who promote abstaining fro meat. Why would this concept be so ubiquitous?

You still have not answered why exactly it is not conducive to spiritual seeking? (Also, I would state here that I don't know what the extent of your knowledge is on magical and spiritual-cultural traditions, but I can assure you that there are numerous paths that do not in any way insist on vegetarianism or include that meat is negative to eat.)

I was taught through Gnostic alchemy that the red meats feed the vital energies of the bodies and yes are most certainly to be eaten in moderation. There is a process of transmutation that ALL energy entering the body goes through regardless of where it comes from. Food, of course, is the least effective for directly feeding the consciousness, with breathing and raw impressions being the most direct.

I would highly suggest taking a look at more Western esoteric views as honestly in my experience the huge focus on vegetarianism comes mostly from Eastern schools such as Hinduism, Buddhism and the like. (And even then, most of them include in their tantras the art of transmutation.)

[Monica]

Okay, so what is the bad thing about ingesting those things? What do you mean by "weighed down"? How does your body, mind and spirit take on that suffering or process that energy?

Those questions are all from the perspective of 'me.'

Come to think of it, most of the comments from the meat-eaters have all been from the perspective of 'me.' Here are some examples of the recurring themes:

I like the taste of meat
I can just bless the meat and it won't bother me.
How will eating meat affect me?
You are trying to control me.
I eat meat and you can't stop me.

Are you saying we are eating their souls?

No, their souls live on...traumatized.

How is that different from eating plants?

Tear some leaves off a lettuce plants.

Tear a leg off a cow with your bare hands and teeth only.

Compare.

Also why is predator/prey behaviour "lesser" than whatever behaviour you apparently exhibit by ingesting only plants?

What do you think of humans' predatory behavior? Is it ok for a human to prey upon a smaller, weaker human? Is it ok to hurt a child, for example?

I would add that just because "spiritual leaders and gurus" do something doesn't in any way mean it is the "right" thing to do.

I would agree in the case of phony religious leaders, but genuine spiritual leaders tend to teach love, peace, forgiveness, nonviolence and compassion. These same themes recur again and again, in all the higher spiritual teachings, including the Law of One. That is significant.

Holy hyperbole, no offense, but I don't have any desire to respond to you.

As you wish!

I know you're just trying to make a point, but you come across so fanatical and ridiculous that I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall with every response.

Oh, you feel that too?

Do I seem fanatical because I keep repeating the same thing over and over? Here is why I do that:

Because, to me, understanding that animals suffer is just soooooooo basic. Knowingly, unnecessarily contributing to cruelty is NOT in alignment with the STO path. That is just sooooooo basic.

To say "oh but I like meat" is just like saying "oh but I like hurting that child." It is based on mememememe and completely disregards the victim.

STO means Service to OTHERS. It's about OTHERS.

Hurting others isn't STO.

It's very simple, and when otherwise intelligent people still don't get that, then yeah, I try to dumb it down...make it simple to understand, and apparently you perceive that as fanatical.

There are only so many ways we can explain this. I think we've pretty much exhausted those ways.

If, after all that, you still honestly don't see a difference between tearing apart a cow and harvesting some lettuce, then there really isn't any point to talking about this. I don't intend that as judgment towards you so please don't take it that way. It simply is what it is. If you don't think the 'other' entity's feelings are important, but only your preference for 'taste' is what matters, or you don't feel compassion for them, or you don't think it matters whether one chooses STO or STS, then you are entitled to your choices. But I leave my comments because others might benefit from the discussion.

Thanks, but no thanks, we do not get anywhere discussing these particular things, I am opting to discuss with others instead. I am well aware of your perspective and it does not need to be reiterated to me at this point in time.

Agreed! And the same to you!

Why did the Logos design the world like this in the first place? By it's very nature the world seems unjust and quite cruel. It seems to breed bellicosity and aggression. Why is the world the way that it is?

Good question. I intend to complain loudly when I get a chance to talk to the Logos. Their 'experiment' totally sucks, in my opinion. Would you like to join me?

[Unbound]

Taken from the Q'uo quote Spaced posted:

In a very real way, it is as much of an offense, one may say, to pluck a bean or dig a potato from the ground as it is to slaughter an animal, for you have interrupted the cycle of its life and its dancing with the Creator as you do so.

Strictly speaking, when looking at one aspect of this statement and one only, it is true. If the potato plant just lives, produces fruit, and the fruits die in the ground, and then the plant dies, the plant has been left to its own natural cycle. But, has anyone harvested a potato? I have. It's part of the root system and you can dig out a potato and the plant keeps producing and living.

In my opinion, Q'uo's statement is misleading and frankly ridiculous, and I don't agree with it. Some may revere any channeled messages thinking the information is somehow better than our own. It's not that the sentiments in the whole quote, and session, were not of value. But to say these things—slaughtered animals and plucked beans—are the same is simply not true.

The life cycle of a plant is HEPED by taking it's fruit or seed. Even bees help this process by spreading the pollen. Without bees, and humans have interrupted that life cycle to a dangerous point, the plants will disappear. (Would it make sense to just destroy everything but wish it love and transmute the suffering after? Why not just not destroy and still wish it love?) Plants are able to live on and have children because an ambulatory being takes the food they are offering. It's symbiosis—win-win. You cannot take a part of an animal and the animal lives or thrives—try cutting off a leg.

To say it's the same is irresponsible in my opinion. Humans can be easily lead.

What do you think happens to the souls of all the animals who are slaughtered? Are they just hoarded somewhere, traumatized and in need of healing?

---

Okay, so what is the bad thing about ingesting those things? What do you mean by "weighed down"? How does your body, mind and spirit take on that suffering or process that energy?

Those questions are all from the perspective of 'me.'

Come to think of it, most of the comments from the meat-eaters have all been from the perspective of 'me.' Here are some examples of the recurring themes:

I like the taste of meat
I can just bless the meat and it won't bother me.
How will eating meat affect me?
You are trying to control me.
I eat meat and you can't stop me.

Are you saying we are eating their souls?

No, their souls live on...traumatized.

How is that different from eating plants?

Tear some leaves off a lettuce plants.

Tear a leg off a cow with your bare hands and teeth only.

Compare.

Also why is predator/prey behaviour "lesser" than whatever behaviour you apparently exhibit by ingesting only plants?

What do you think of humans' predatory behavior? Is it ok for a human to prey upon a smaller, weaker human? Is it ok to hurt a child, for example?

I would add that just because "spiritual leaders and gurus" do something doesn't in any way mean it is the "right" thing to do.

I would agree in the case of phony religious leaders, but genuine spiritual leaders tend to teach love, peace, forgiveness, nonviolence and compassion. These same themes recur again and again, in all the higher spiritual teachings, including the Law of One. That is significant.

Holy hyperbole, no offense, but I don't have any desire to respond to you.

As you wish!

I know you're just trying to make a point, but you come across so fanatical and ridiculous that I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall with every response.

Oh, you feel that too?

Do I seem fanatical because I keep repeating the same thing over and over? Here is why I do that:

Because, to me, understanding that animals suffer is just soooooooo basic. Knowingly, unnecessarily contributing to cruelty is NOT in alignment with the STO path. That is just sooooooo basic.

To say "oh but I like meat" is just like saying "oh but I like hurting that child." It is based on mememememe and completely disregards the victim.

STO means Service to OTHERS. It's about OTHERS.

Hurting others isn't STO.

It's very simple, and when otherwise intelligent people still don't get that, then yeah, I try to dumb it down...make it simple to understand, and apparently you perceive that as fanatical.

There are only so many ways we can explain this. I think we've pretty much exhausted those ways.

If, after all that, you still honestly don't see a difference between tearing apart a cow and harvesting some lettuce, then there really isn't any point to talking about this. I don't intend that as judgment towards you so please don't take it that way. It simply is what it is. If you don't think the 'other' entity's feelings are important, but only your preference for 'taste' is what matters, or you don't feel compassion for them, or you don't think it matters whether one chooses STO or STS, then you are entitled to your choices. But I leave my comments because others might benefit from the discussion.

Thanks, but no thanks, we do not get anywhere discussing these particular things, I am opting to discuss with others instead. I am well aware of your perspective and it does not need to be reiterated to me at this point in time.

Agreed! And the same to you!

Why did the Logos design the world like this in the first place? By it's very nature the world seems unjust and quite cruel. It seems to breed bellicosity and aggression. Why is the world the way that it is?

Good question. I intend to complain loudly when I get a chance to talk to the Logos. Their 'experiment' totally sucks, in my opinion. Would you like to join me?

Once again, your insinuations as to my character with hints of "Well if you don't feel that way, and you don't care about the feelings, it's not my fault you're STS, blah blah blah" is obtuse and completely ridiculous.