Why I am not a vegan

[Monica]

So I should instead try to justify being a vegetarian so I will one day "get there"? If I am thinking about where I am going, to the grave, then the whole concept is moot to me.

Funny cartoon, but that's a rather bleak outlook and not what I meant at all by 'where we're going.' I meant having aspirations to evolve spiritually, and responding to opportunities for compassion. We all fall short at times, but at least recognizing ideals as worth aspiring to, has value.

Translated and applied to this topic: Where one is at (how often one eats dead animals) isn't the point. Where one is going (aspiring to more compassionate choices) is.

[Parsons]

Perhaps my phone doesn't have the 'empathic bond' plugin,

Ah, that explains it!

but I have no clue how the cucumber feels about being harvested (and as far as I know, neither do you).

Precisely.

We do, however, know exactly what cows, pigs, chickens and fish feel.

That has been my point all along and completely negates the "plants suffer too" argument.

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to assume they don't suffer. If the plant suffers, your argument falls apart because no matter what, a part of the second density Creator is suffering.

The plant does not have vocal chords or lungs or limbs to flail about when dying. It can not viscerally express suffering. An apt analogy would be a person who is complelty paralized but has control of their senses. A better analogy would be if an animal were to be compltely paralized but could still experience all 5 physical senses. If they were tortured (not going to get graphic, use your imagination) and are unable to cry out in pain or unable to physically react in any way, is it safe to assume they aren't suffering?

[Unbound]

So I should instead try to justify being a vegetarian so I will one day "get there"? If I am thinking about where I am going, to the grave, then the whole concept is moot to me.

Funny cartoon, but that's a rather bleak outlook and not what I meant at all by 'where we're going.' I meant having aspirations to evolve spiritually, and responding to opportunities for compassion. We all fall short at times, but at least recognizing ideals as worth aspiring to, has value.

Translated and applied to this topic: Where one is at (how often one eats dead animals) isn't the point. Where one is going (aspiring to more compassionate choices) is.

Sure, if one's spiritual focus is oriented around the development of compassion. That, in my mind, is not the one and only avenue of spiritual evolution.

Honestly, I think that picture represents some of the most advanced spirituality I understand, the dance of death, we are all equal in the end and you only have your own experiences. For myself, I do not feel guilty about my choices, so in death, I will not look back and think to myself, "Damn, I wish I had've done _______", because in my mind what is important is to appreciate your experiences for what they are rather than what you would prefer or like them to be.

Maybe that is my issue with the whole meat thing is I can clearly see the whole suffering issue, but I don't really have a guilt-complex over it.

[Monica]

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to assume they don't suffer.

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to cause suffering to animals, whom we know with 100% certainty DO suffer.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out repeatedly, eating animals causes many MORE plants to die.

If the plant suffers, your argument falls apart because no matter what, a part of the second density Creator is suffering.

The plant does not have vocal chords or lungs or limbs to flail about when dying. It can not viscerally express suffering. An apt analogy would be a person who is complelty paralized but has control of their senses. A better analogy would be if an animal were to be compltely paralized but could still experience all 5 physical senses. If they were tortured (not going to get graphic, use your imagination) and are unable to cry out in pain or unable to physically react in any way, is it safe to assume they aren't suffering?

You haven't bothered to read those discussions about plants, have you? This has already been addressed extensively. I'm not going to waste my time repeating it all for you. I will say only that your analogy is poor, because a paralyzed person wasn't designed that way.

---

Sure, if one's spiritual focus is oriented around the development of compassion. That, in my mind, is not the one and only avenue of spiritual evolution.

True. There is another path: the STS path. I sometimes make the mistake of assuming that everyone here is aspiring to the STO path.

Oh, and there's the path of no-path, no-choice, repeating 3D, the sinkhole of indifference. Yes, there is that.

Honestly, I think that picture represents some of the most advanced spirituality I understand, the dance of death, we are all equal in the end and you only have your own experiences.

I can see your points, but I perceived it as saying we're all just physical, ending up as dust, rather than spiritual beings who leave the body behind.

For myself, I do not feel guilty about my choices, so in death, I will not look back and think to myself, "Damn, I wish I had've done _______", because in my mind what is important is to appreciate your experiences for what they are rather than what you would prefer or like them to be.

Maybe that is my issue with the whole meat thing is I can clearly see the whole suffering issue, but I don't really have a guilt-complex over it.

Have you watched the slaughterhouse videos I posted? (just curious)

[Matt1]

A study was done called primary perception by Cleve Backstar in the 1960s which tested response from plants via a polygraph galvanometer to see if plants had an emotional reaction to harm. Although this is normally considered pseudoscience or simply paranormal by most i believe it to be true due to the understanding of consciousness we have gained from esoteric material such as a the Law of One. They found that if the meal be it the eggs, vegetable or fruit was blessed via something like saying grace it didn't have the negative reaction towards pain.

The believe is that there is an underlining source or ether that space and time are manifesting out of which at the lowest level is simply a fluid like wave or vibration. However that goes more into esoteric physics.

[Monica]

A study was done called primary perception by Cleve Backstar in the 1960s which tested response from plants via a polygraph galvanometer to see if plants had an emotional reaction to harm. Although this is normally considered pseudoscience or simply paranormal by most i believe it to be true due to the understanding of consciousness we have gained from esoteric material such as a the Law of One. They found that if the meal be it the eggs, vegetable or fruit was blessed via something like saying grace it didn't have the negative reaction towards pain.

The believe is that there is an underlining source or ether that space and time are manifesting out of which at the lowest level is simply a fluid like wave or vibration. However that goes more into esoteric physics.

There is no question that plant life has a consciousness. The question is whether each blade of grass has an individual sentience and can feel pain each time someone walks on it. I agree that farming practices that just mow down huge fields of plants obviously inflict suffering on the plants, no question about it. But it's more of an energetic thing because of the disrespect shown towards life, rather than each corn plant feeling individual fear and pain. I say this based on what we know from the Law of One about early 2D consciousness - that it is more of a group consciousness, rather than individual - plus what we know about pain receptors in the body, plus common sense (see the links I posted earlier about plants...are they in constant agony just because they get stepped on? What kind of sadistic Logos would design them that way?).

There is also no question that the farmer who lovingly tends his fields and treats the plants with respect, is embraced rather than feared, at harvest time. Tests have shown that plants lovingly harvested don't register the same response.

Granted, this is subject to interpretation, but it makes total sense, if we think about it.

On the other hand, no animal willingly goes to the slaughter, no matter how 'lovingly' they are coaxed.

[Diana]

Maybe that is my issue with the whole meat thing is I can clearly see the whole suffering issue, but I don't really have a guilt-complex over it.

I envy anyone who does not buy into guilt. I am not so evolved or fortunate.

There is the concept of a life review. My friend, Kelly Larsen, who wrote "Keys to Your Inner Power" tells the story of how she got interested in spiritual seeking. She was an RN in the ICU. A man she calls Mr. Williams was recovering from heart surgery and went into cardiac arrest. They got the crash cart and started dealing with his heart failure. Kelly sat by him and held his hand, looking into his eyes to calm him. She was somehow sucked into a white tunnel with Mr. W and ended up in a room where a light being met them (the light being and Mr. W briefly looked at Kelly wondering what she was doing there, but let it go).

The walls were showing scenes of Mr. W's life in phastasmagorical style. Everything he had done, with absolutely no judgment. When the visions ended, the light being asked Mr. W his reaction. Mr. W felt he needed to do some healing with his son, so he and Kelly went back into their bodies in the hospital room.

I know Kelly very well, so this is one instance where I don't have to question the veracity or perceptions of the author. There is no judgment, that much is clear. So why feel guilt?

I often think about what my reaction will be when I leave this place. My thought is always this: Did I accomplish what I came here to do. This thought keeps me here and trying to do my best with what I am capable of doing. I am creative and have great visualizing skills. It is my theory that the artists of this world are here to help visualize for those that can't.

In the context of Kelly's story, I feel, though there was no judgment, that I will judge myself and my actions against what I came here to do. I don't see myself as just "being" and doing nothing. I know a channel whose channeled being keeps saying that—just be—but I am apparently not evolved enough for that. I have a deep urge to accomplish some goal here.

As regards animals and their suffering—I cannot participate in any suffering knowingly when it is not necessary. This is a central point for me in consuming animals, especially in the U.S. where factory farming has reached horrible heights of torture and greed.

So I'm not saying it is important to make it all stop (though I wish I could) as I know I can't do that. But it is important to me to do my best to live in the highest, conscious way I can, day by day, choice by choice.

In the end, everything may be equal and without particular significance. But though we might look at the bigger picture, this 3D Earth is still a portion of reality, and one we are in NOW. I don't feel I'm here just to flow with the current being made by others or the "whole." I feel I want to contribute to that current of evolution and experience, helping to guide it into a positive stream of being.

[Monica]

I envy anyone who does not buy into guilt. I am not so evolved or fortunate.

It's popular in New Age circles to think of guilt as something bad, something to be denied. I think they are confusing healthy remorse with lingering guilt that occurs as a result of nonforgiveness of self.

Healthy remorse has a purpose: to trigger introspection and, if appropriate, modification of choices. Healthy remorse shouldn't be suppressed.

We cannot decide for another person whether they 'should' feel guilt or not. But, an absence of guilt isn't necessarily an indication of being highly evolved. Nor is it necessarily a goal to aspire to.

[Matt1]

A study was done called primary perception by Cleve Backstar in the 1960s which tested response from plants via a polygraph galvanometer to see if plants had an emotional reaction to harm. Although this is normally considered pseudoscience or simply paranormal by most i believe it to be true due to the understanding of consciousness we have gained from esoteric material such as a the Law of One. They found that if the meal be it the eggs, vegetable or fruit was blessed via something like saying grace it didn't have the negative reaction towards pain.

The believe is that there is an underlining source or ether that space and time are manifesting out of which at the lowest level is simply a fluid like wave or vibration. However that goes more into esoteric physics.

There is no question that plant life has a consciousness. The question is whether each blade of grass has an individual sentience and can feel pain each time someone walks on it. I agree that farming practices that just mow down huge fields of plants obviously inflict suffering on the plants, no question about it. But it's more of an energetic thing because of the disrespect shown towards life, rather than each corn plant feeling individual fear and pain. I say this based on what we know from the Law of One about early 2D consciousness - that it is more of a group consciousness, rather than individual - plus what we know about pain receptors in the body, plus common sense (see the links I posted earlier about plants...are they in constant agony just because they get stepped on? What kind of sadistic Logos would design them that way?).

There is also no question that the farmer who lovingly tends his fields and treats the plants with respect, is embraced rather than feared, at harvest time. Tests have shown that plants lovingly harvested don't register the same response.

Granted, this is subject to interpretation, but it makes total sense, if we think about it.

On the other hand, no animal willingly goes to the slaughter, no matter how 'lovingly' they are coaxed.

I agree , its the emotional response from a 3rd density entity that effects the consciousness emotion of the crop. If they are cooked or harvested with loving energy then the reaction towards suffering is balanced. New science shows geometric microcluster forming in such a connection with thoughts giving an interesting view on physics meeting metaphysics.

[Diana]

I envy anyone who does not buy into guilt. I am not so evolved or fortunate.

It's popular in New Age circles to think of guilt as something bad, something to be denied. I think they are confusing healthy remorse with lingering guilt that occurs as a result of nonforgiveness of self.

Healthy remorse has a purpose: to trigger introspection and, if appropriate, modification of choices. Healthy remorse shouldn't be suppressed.

We cannot decide for another person whether they 'should' feel guilt or not. But, an absence of guilt isn't necessarily an indication of being highly evolved. Nor is it necessarily a goal to aspire to.

Yes. That is how guilt works for me. It reminds me with visceral intensity that my actions or reactions were not ideal or my highest best. Which is why I am not evolved enough to be beyond guilt and its usefulness as an evolutionary tool—because I evidently still need these reminders.

[Monica]

I agree , its the emotional response from a 3rd density entity that effects the consciousness emotion of the crop. If they are cooked or harvested with loving energy then the reaction towards suffering is balanced. New science shows geometric microcluster forming in such a connection with thoughts giving an interesting view on physics meeting metaphysics.

Exactly! Just look at Dr. Emoto's work regarding the structure of water. Microclustered water is my business. Water is affected by the energies directed at it, and it surely has a primal consciousness.

We don't say "Oh it's ok to torture and kill animals because, after all, water suffers too when we drink it" :exclamation:

[Unbound]

I envy anyone who does not buy into guilt. I am not so evolved or fortunate.

It's popular in New Age circles to think of guilt as something bad, something to be denied. I think they are confusing healthy remorse with lingering guilt that occurs as a result of nonforgiveness of self.

Healthy remorse has a purpose: to trigger introspection and, if appropriate, modification of choices. Healthy remorse shouldn't be suppressed.

We cannot decide for another person whether they 'should' feel guilt or not. But, an absence of guilt isn't necessarily an indication of being highly evolved. Nor is it necessarily a goal to aspire to.

Yes. That is how guilt works for me. It reminds me with visceral intensity that my actions or reactions were not ideal or my highest best. Which is why I am not evolved enough to be beyond guilt and its usefulness as an evolutionary tool—because I evidently still need these reminders.

My feedback system with myself doesn't really work in this way. When I recognize that another choice would have been wiser it usually comes with a sense of "D'uhh", rather than any sense of guilt over having taken the "wrong" action. I always acknowledge that my taking the "wrong" path was revealing to me the truth of myself towards the choices. That being said, sometimes I continuously take the "wrong" path and meet the same reminders, then over time I eventually am conscious enough to choose another way.

Guilt is too debilitating for me to be useful in an "alarm" kind of way because it brings out some of my most negative states of self which tends to further mislead me away from my ideals. However, some of my deepest healing has been through the integration of guilt and I do believe it has its use but honestly it seems like so many people around me live their lives filled with guilt from day to day over every little thing they are doing "wrong" and I just don't really understand it.

Maybe I am just at peace with the fact that I could be good or evil.

[Diana]

My feedback system with myself doesn't really work in this way. When I recognize that another choice would have been wiser it usually comes with a sense of "D'uhh", rather than any sense of guilt over having taken the "wrong" action. I always acknowledge that my taking the "wrong" path was revealing to me the truth of myself towards the choices. That being said, sometimes I continuously take the "wrong" path and meet the same reminders, then over time I eventually am conscious enough to choose another way.

Have you ever had someone close to you die, especially unexpectedly (eg: sibling, wife)? (Not someone old.)

[Unbound]

My feedback system with myself doesn't really work in this way. When I recognize that another choice would have been wiser it usually comes with a sense of "D'uhh", rather than any sense of guilt over having taken the "wrong" action. I always acknowledge that my taking the "wrong" path was revealing to me the truth of myself towards the choices. That being said, sometimes I continuously take the "wrong" path and meet the same reminders, then over time I eventually am conscious enough to choose another way.

Have you ever had someone close to you die, especially unexpectedly (eg: sibling, wife)? (Not someone old.)

Yes, one of my best friends was killed, hit by a drunk driver. The sorrow and pain I felt then has absolutely no resemblance to guilt or "remorse".

[Diana]

My feedback system with myself doesn't really work in this way. When I recognize that another choice would have been wiser it usually comes with a sense of "D'uhh", rather than any sense of guilt over having taken the "wrong" action. I always acknowledge that my taking the "wrong" path was revealing to me the truth of myself towards the choices. That being said, sometimes I continuously take the "wrong" path and meet the same reminders, then over time I eventually am conscious enough to choose another way.

Have you ever had someone close to you die, especially unexpectedly (eg: sibling, wife)? (Not someone old.)

Yes, one of my best friends was killed, hit by a drunk driver. The sorrow and pain I felt then has absolutely no resemblance to guilt or "remorse".

Perhaps you had nothing to regret. You sound as though you are more at peace, as you say, with who you are and what you do. When my brother died (suicide, many years ago), the pain and sorrow were immense. But I still get twinges of guilt for any and all the immature or thoughtless things I did or didn't do. I don't feel guilt because I fancy I could have stopped him; I honor his choice.

I have had a couple of close friends die as well, but they did not make me feel guilt. Perhaps it was because my brother and I had family history.

[Parsons]

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to assume they don't suffer.

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to cause suffering to animals, whom we know with 100% certainty DO suffer.

This is a perfect example of a post where you don't actually address the logic of my point and sidestep it. You are still ignoring the fact that if both plants and animals suffer, no matter what, a part of the Creator is suffer to feed you.

If the plant suffers, your argument falls apart because no matter what, a part of the second density Creator is suffering.

The plant does not have vocal chords or lungs or limbs to flail about when dying. It can not viscerally express suffering. An apt analogy would be a person who is complelty paralized but has control of their senses. A better analogy would be if an animal were to be compltely paralized but could still experience all 5 physical senses. If they were tortured (not going to get graphic, use your imagination) and are unable to cry out in pain or unable to physically react in any way, is it safe to assume they aren't suffering?

You haven't bothered to read those discussions about plants, have you? This has already been addressed extensively. I'm not going to waste my time repeating it all for you. I will say only that your analogy is poor, because a paralyzed person wasn't designed that way.

Yes, I read your post about the suffering of plants. You do a bunch of theorizing about the group soul of plants vs the individual souls of animals. Unless you can point me towards a Ra quote which says that is the case for all animals (pets or 2D beings ready to graduate excluded), I'm assuming you are manufacturing a theory to fill yet another logical hole in your reasoning.

Honestly, I'm not trying to convert anyone into eating meat. In fact, I support anyone's choice to be a vegetarian. The only reason I'm even discussing this is to provide an understanding that a person who is spiritually awake AND aware of how animals(and plants) are treated that are used for food can still make the choice of being an omnivore.

It has become apparent to me that you will twist, stretch, or just completely manufacture baseless reasoning to justify your intolerance towards opinions similar to mine. It is, of course, your Choice to try to convince (control) those people of that opinion into believing what they are doing is supporting cruelty/polarizing STS by eating meat. However, I am done engaging you in your sermon about the sins of eating meat.

[Monica]

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to assume they don't suffer.

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to cause suffering to animals, whom we know with 100% certainty DO suffer.

This is a perfect example of a post where you don't actually address the logic of my point and sidestep it. You are still ignoring the fact that if both plants and animals suffer, no matter what, a part of the Creator is suffer to feed you.

If the plant suffers, your argument falls apart because no matter what, a part of the second density Creator is suffering.

The plant does not have vocal chords or lungs or limbs to flail about when dying. It can not viscerally express suffering. An apt analogy would be a person who is complelty paralized but has control of their senses. A better analogy would be if an animal were to be compltely paralized but could still experience all 5 physical senses. If they were tortured (not going to get graphic, use your imagination) and are unable to cry out in pain or unable to physically react in any way, is it safe to assume they aren't suffering?

You haven't bothered to read those discussions about plants, have you? This has already been addressed extensively. I'm not going to waste my time repeating it all for you. I will say only that your analogy is poor, because a paralyzed person wasn't designed that way.

Yes, I read your post about the suffering of plants. You do a bunch of theorizing about the group soul of plants vs the individual souls of animals. Unless you can point me towards a Ra quote which says that is the case for all animals (pets or 2D beings ready to graduate excluded), I'm assuming you are manufacturing a theory to fill yet another logical hole in your reasoning.

Honestly, I'm not trying to convert anyone into eating meat. In fact, I support anyone's choice to be a vegetarian. The only reason I'm even discussing this is to provide an understanding that a person who is spiritually awake AND aware of how animals(and plants) are treated that are used for food can still make the choice of being an omnivore.

It has become apparent to me that you will twist, stretch, or just completely manufacture baseless reasoning to justify your intolerance towards opinions similar to mine. It is, of course, your Choice to try to convince (control) those people of that opinion into believing what they are doing is supporting cruelty/polarizing STS by eating meat. However, I am done engaging you in your sermon about the sins of eating meat.

Just documenting your insults. If I were still moderator I'd refer you to guideline #1.

---

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to assume they don't suffer.

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to cause suffering to animals, whom we know with 100% certainty DO suffer.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out repeatedly, eating animals causes many MORE plants to die.

Documenting the rest of my comments that got left out.

[Unbound]

My feedback system with myself doesn't really work in this way. When I recognize that another choice would have been wiser it usually comes with a sense of "D'uhh", rather than any sense of guilt over having taken the "wrong" action. I always acknowledge that my taking the "wrong" path was revealing to me the truth of myself towards the choices. That being said, sometimes I continuously take the "wrong" path and meet the same reminders, then over time I eventually am conscious enough to choose another way.

Have you ever had someone close to you die, especially unexpectedly (eg: sibling, wife)? (Not someone old.)

Yes, one of my best friends was killed, hit by a drunk driver. The sorrow and pain I felt then has absolutely no resemblance to guilt or "remorse".

Perhaps you had nothing to regret. You sound as though you are more at peace, as you say, with who you are and what you do. When my brother died (suicide, many years ago), the pain and sorrow were immense. But I still get twinges of guilt for any and all the immature or thoughtless things I did or didn't do. I don't feel guilt because I fancy I could have stopped him; I honor his choice.

I have had a couple of close friends die as well, but they did not make me feel guilt. Perhaps it was because my brother and I had family history.

There was no regret, no, only confusion. I guess for myself it seems like a waste of energy to beat myself up over this or that thing that may or may not have happened and instead I have just done everything I can to honour the time and lessons we had and learned together. I will always consider him a guiding force in his life.

Death is not about me, or anybody, it is about the person facing that great transition in to the beyond and no other. He made his journey and though I may not understand it, I know that when the time for Death to take a soul apart from its body it is never in error, even though it may be surrounded in sorrow and tragedy.

I must confess that I am not very much a "light" individual in many ways. Death, being a tangible absolution, just as Life, is something I hold deep respect for. I cannot ever profess to totally know its ways. Only the One does so.

[Monica]

I was not lashing out at you by calling your behavior bigoted

You didn't call my behavior bigoted. You called ME a bigot. That crosses a line.

and my intent was to use the dictionary definition of the word bigot which was not intended to be offensive. You clearly have an image of the word 'bigot' which is harsher than the actual dictionary definition. Even if it is offensive, it is no more offensive than calling my actions 'STS' or 'controlling' when you know that I eat meat.

There absolutely IS a difference, a very BIG difference. Never, ever, EVER have I said YOU are STS, cruel, xyz or anything.

I have consistently discussed ideas and concepts, from the Law of One perspective, in an academic manner. If you extrapolate from my views that you are xyz, that is your choice and has nothing to do with me.

Whereas, saying to someone "YOU are xyz" is a personal judgment and is therefore crossing a line.

I don't think you have a conscious intention to be offensive to me by categorizing someone who chooses to eat meat and knows how some of the animals are treated as STS/control. But I fit into that category, so that is what you are ostensibly doing. If you take out the 'meat' part of the equation and replace it with a general 'choice', you are judging my 'choice' to be STS/controlling when I have professed that is not the case;hence my usage of the word bigot.

What I personally think about your choice is irrelevant. The fact remains that I have never called you any names.

Your dictionary definition doesn't even fit anyway. Disagreeing with a viewpoint is NOT the same as being intolerant.

big·ot ˈbiɡət/ noun
a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.

It would only be fair to point out I have consciously recognized that I tend to be intolerant of what I perceive as intolerant behavior towards others. Ironically, you could say I am bigoted against bigotry. I am certain this is catalyst with which I have an opportunity work through this bias.

We all know what the definition of bigot is: someone who judges others when their choices have nothing to do with them. A fundamentalist religious person who judges gays, when their lives don't affect him at all...someone criticizing Obama for being black when that has nothing to do with his abilities as president...that sort of thing.

Someone isn't a bigot just because they disagree.

Someone isn't a bigot just because they are trying to save others from oppression.

By your logic, then the people working to free the human slaves or the Jews, were all bigots.

Working to raise awareness of the oppression of other sentient beings isn't bigotry.

Vegans aren't bigots just because they believe it's inherently wrong to cause unnecessary suffering to other sentient beings.

Even IF the definition fit (which it doesn't), it's still not acceptable to call other members derogatory names. That is a direct insult and is never acceptable.

1) Respect. Compassion. Loving-kindness. Empathy. Trust. Goodwill. Desire to serve. Embracing each other. Opening our heart. Participants are asked to keep the thought in the forefront of their minds at all times that each on this forum IS the Creator. Please keep communication respectful at all times and in all ways. The participant may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea. Please remember that we are all here to expand our knowledge, deepen our understanding, and support one another by reflecting our divinity to each other. We are One being -- we are not here to forget the real.

[Diana]

It has become apparent to me that you will twist, stretch, or just completely manufacture baseless reasoning to justify your intolerance towards opinions similar to mine. It is, of course, your Choice to try to convince (control) those people of that opinion into believing what they are doing is supporting cruelty/polarizing STS by eating meat. However, I am done engaging you in your sermon about the sins of eating meat.

I believe Monica is just trying to pass along factual information about the meat industry. This is not about control, rather, it's about awareness. Her views on this subject of eating animals vs. plants are of course her privilege. We are all expressing our views here and that should be okay.

It's harsh to be attacking her in this way, and unnecessary. If you disagree, please allow for this difference and the right of others to say what they think.

Calling Monica a "bigot" and then reiterating how appropriate that was is not acceptable.

[Unbound]

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to assume they don't suffer.

Not knowing how the plant feels does not give carte blanche to cause suffering to animals, whom we know with 100% certainty DO suffer.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out repeatedly, eating animals causes many MORE plants to die.

If the plant suffers, your argument falls apart because no matter what, a part of the second density Creator is suffering.

The plant does not have vocal chords or lungs or limbs to flail about when dying. It can not viscerally express suffering. An apt analogy would be a person who is complelty paralized but has control of their senses. A better analogy would be if an animal were to be compltely paralized but could still experience all 5 physical senses. If they were tortured (not going to get graphic, use your imagination) and are unable to cry out in pain or unable to physically react in any way, is it safe to assume they aren't suffering?

You haven't bothered to read those discussions about plants, have you? This has already been addressed extensively. I'm not going to waste my time repeating it all for you. I will say only that your analogy is poor, because a paralyzed person wasn't designed that way.

---

Sure, if one's spiritual focus is oriented around the development of compassion. That, in my mind, is not the one and only avenue of spiritual evolution.

True. There is another path: the STS path. I sometimes make the mistake of assuming that everyone here is aspiring to the STO path.

Oh, and there's the path of no-path, no-choice, repeating 3D, the sinkhole of indifference. Yes, there is that.

Honestly, I think that picture represents some of the most advanced spirituality I understand, the dance of death, we are all equal in the end and you only have your own experiences.

I can see your points, but I perceived it as saying we're all just physical, ending up as dust, rather than spiritual beings who leave the body behind.

For myself, I do not feel guilty about my choices, so in death, I will not look back and think to myself, "Damn, I wish I had've done _______", because in my mind what is important is to appreciate your experiences for what they are rather than what you would prefer or like them to be.

Maybe that is my issue with the whole meat thing is I can clearly see the whole suffering issue, but I don't really have a guilt-complex over it.

Have you watched the slaughterhouse videos I posted? (just curious)

Would it shock you to know that seeing these horrible things doesn't really phase me? Human violence isn't something I am in any way foreign to, and indeed, there are instances of violence in my own memories of past lives that are possibly much more disturbing.

I think the REACTION to these things has to be differentiated from actual love and feeling. Just because people react with shock and disturbance doesn't mean they are necessarily being compassionate. Just the same, someone who may not react, may feel very deeply about it.

[Monica]

Would it shock you to know that seeing these horrible things doesn't really phase me? Human violence isn't something I am in any way foreign to, and indeed, there are instances of violence in my own memories of past lives that are possibly much more disturbing.

I think the REACTION to these things has to be differentiated from actual love and feeling. Just because people react with shock and disturbance doesn't mean they are necessarily being compassionate. Just the same, someone who may not react, may feel very deeply about it.

I have no comments about your personal reaction or lack of reaction.

---

Intellectual, Respectful, Thought-Provoking Lecture: Melanie Joy - Carnism: The Psychology of Eating Meat

Melanie explains everything that has happened in these discussions.

[Ashim]

As a instinctive hunter by nature I require meat in my diet.
I believe that animals should be kept in natural environments instead of factories.
I am prepared to pay more for quality bio-certified produce.
My compassion is expressed in this way.
I am at peace with myself about this situation.
If simulated meat becomes available I would be happy to switch.
This could happen within our livetimes.
Problem solved.
Animals given a little nudge up the spiral of growth.
Lovely how that works.

[Shemaya]

Intellectual, Respectful, Thought-Provoking Lecture: Melanie Joy - Carnism: The Psychology of Eating Meat

Melanie explains everything that has happened in these discussions.

Wow, Monica, thanks that is a wonderful presentation. I didn't see the entire hour, but the presentation was very grounded, eye-opening and her energy was very clear. In clear, I mean that she was able to present the information without tapping into defenses and triggers, though I am pretty sure that people who are overly attached to the status quo would be triggered.

From what I saw, the idea of non- acceptance of the status quo of our violent, dominant/controlling, oppressive culture and society is a powerful message, that may be catalyzing for followers of the Ra material.

Given that in the rubric of the Ra material, " acceptance" is viewed as an STO trait and "non-acceptance" is considered STS trait, it creates some confusion for what is truly righteous. The acceptance/non-acceptance rubric if perceived through our personal energetic blockages and limitations ie social conditioning and culture as well as prior experiences, would certainly justify accepting the status quo and therefore accepting violence, oppression, cruelty.

Those of us on the STO path, who choose to radiate and expand our connection to God, and expand infinite energy/intelligence / ie the Kingdom of God on this planet rather than continue in a disconnected and "Babylon" system, we are the ones who have to make the changes and take the action steps to create 4D. It is our work on clearing our own blockages within that will manifest the outer changes as most of us know.

Surely, those who have tirelessly advocated for non-violence are leading the way towards this reality. I think anyone who is on the STO path would agree to that. That is pretty much a given, right?

A couple of things that I have thought about though. The outward violence that we see is a manifestation of the violence we have within. Getting that cleared is foremost, and that goes for everyone, we are all in this together.

Secondly, we have to recognize that we all exist here in a context. The food industry as a whole is violent, unsustainable, and un-holistic. Practices have developed that are raping and destroying the planet, causing more pestilence and disease, and developed purely for PROFIT. That is the culprit, imo. To reduce the responsibility of violence towards animals to enculturated "taste" is a bit shortsighted. We can't solve the problem by blaming each other for being less than our highest potential. We see what can happen there, it just devolves into a back and forth tit for tat argument that goes in circles, an expenditure of energy that may be worthwhile to put to other uses.

On that vein, ie. the food industry is violent, recognize the violence everywhere in the food industry. Migrant workers are totally and completely exploited for profit. Women are sexually harassed, men women and CHILDREN are exploited in poor working conditions for little money, being exposed to dangerous chemicals and other dangers. The agri-business is huge and designed to be profitable (rather than nurturing, sustaining, and loving). All people that are hooked into the system participate in it by choice whether vegetarian or not. We all contribute to violence on some level if we buy food that has come out of this violent system. That goes for the production of plants, vegetarian foods. The growing and harvesting of plants is big business, and exploiting the underprivileged and poverty-stricken is a way to keep it profitable. It's a violent system that we have established on this planet, and violent on many many levels, in thoughts words and deeds.

It's so bad that it can feel almost hopeless that anything we do will change it. But I do believe if we use our catalysts to clear our energy, ourselves, our violence within so that our red orange and yellow and green rays radiate, we can pave a way to the 4D that we dream of. I think though that we should clear the whole rainbow through to blue indigo and violet. My deep thoughts for the day.

Now I have to go out and feed and care for my hens. They are really cute, and my husband made them the most awesome coop!!!

[Shemaya]

I just found this video. Eye opening to the state of agriculture today, for the workers. Kids in slave labor conditions (and adults). Meanwhile, someone on Wall Street is buying and selling for profit.

Children in the Fields

[Monica]

As a instinctive hunter by nature I require meat in my diet.

I don't think it's STS for truly instinctual hunters to kill for survival. Our Logos designed them that way (for some inexplicable reason). Instinctual hunters are easy to recognize: They are equipped with fangs, with which to tear the flesh of their prey.


  ComparisonChart.jpg (Size: 137.01 KB / Downloads: 8)

They eagerly kill their prey with only their teeth, and delight in drinking the fresh blood.

Creatures of Instinct (Excerpt from National Geographic Documentary)

Unlike these wild lions and hyenas, domesticated cats seem to be losing their natural instinct to kill, perhaps due to being fed kitty kibble from a bag for many generations. (Or, could it be because they are nearing graduation to 3D as humans?)

While feral cats still hunt for birds and rodents, housecats often don't know what to do with the occasional mouse. I've observed my own cats catching birds, mice and rabbits, then leaving them intact, without eating them. They seem to have lost their taste for bloody carcasses.

Even the late-2D animals are evolving. Hmmm...

The human body doesn't have fangs. With the exception of vitamin B12, all nutrients found in meat are also found in plant foods. Even B12 can be synthesized in the human gut. All we need to do is leave a little dirt on our food. (But since most of us prefer to wash the dirt off, taking a supplement is preferable.)

40.14 ↥ Questioner: In dietary matters, what would be the foods that one would include and what would be the foods that one would exclude in a general way for the most or the greatest care of one’s bodily complex?
Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we underline and emphasize that this information is not to be understood literally but as a link or psychological nudge for the body and the mind and spirit. Thus it is the care and respect for the self that is the true thing of importance. In this light we may iterate the basic information given for this instrument’s diet. The vegetables, the fruits, the grains, and to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism, the animal products.

Those lions clearly have a metabolism that requires meat. We don't. Modern scientific research has proven conclusively that the human body doesn't require meat.

Since you say you are an instinctual hunter, then I wonder: Are you human?

---

Wow, Monica, thanks that is a wonderful presentation. I didn't see the entire hour, but the presentation was very grounded, eye-opening and her energy was very clear. In clear, I mean that she was able to present the information without tapping into defenses and triggers, though I am pretty sure that people who are overly attached to the status quo would be triggered.

Agreed! For those who have not yet watched it: I invite you to do so. Not a slaughterhouse video, Not a PETA video, it's something else entirely. She explores the psychology of this issue. Deep stuff!

From what I saw, the idea of non- acceptance of the status quo of our violent, dominant/controlling, oppressive culture and society is a powerful message, that may be catalyzing for followers of the Ra material.

I had hoped...but that doesn't seem to be the case, at least not the Law of One students here at B4.

Given that in the rubric of the Ra material, " acceptance" is viewed as an STO trait and "non-acceptance" is considered STS trait, it creates some confusion for what is truly righteous.

Yes, but that's because of the misinterpretation of the term acceptance. It doesn't mean lethargy/apathy/non-action/no choice as is commonly believed. Choice is part of the equation.

The acceptance/non-acceptance rubric if perceived through our personal energetic blockages and limitations ie social conditioning and culture as well as prior experiences, would certainly justify accepting the status quo and therefore accepting violence, oppression, cruelty.

Apparently!

Those of us on the STO path, who choose to radiate and expand our connection to God, and expand infinite energy/intelligence / ie the Kingdom of God on this planet rather than continue in a disconnected and "Babylon" system, we are the ones who have to make the changes and take the action steps to create 4D. It is our work on clearing our own blockages within that will manifest the outer changes as most of us know.

Yes!

Surely, those who have tirelessly advocated for non-violence are leading the way towards this reality. I think anyone who is on the STO path would agree to that. That is pretty much a given, right?

One would think. I sure did. But no, such is not the case, at least not as indicated by the discussions here.

A couple of things that I have thought about though. The outward violence that we see is a manifestation of the violence we have within. Getting that cleared is foremost, and that goes for everyone, we are all in this together.

Absolutely!

Could it not also be said that the outward violence is a manifestation of the violence we personally contribute to?

Secondly, we have to recognize that we all exist here in a context. The food industry as a whole is violent, unsustainable, and un-holistic. Practices have developed that are raping and destroying the planet, causing more pestilence and disease,

Jo Frederiks states it succinctly:

On this basis, no child under the age of 5 will ever reach retirement age. It is mathematically impossible.

See his whole lecture here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5XX35L4fmQ#t=10

and developed purely for PROFIT. That is the culprit, imo. To reduce the responsibility of violence towards animals to enculturated "taste" is a bit shortsighted. We can't solve the problem by blaming each other for being less than our highest potential. We see what can happen there, it just devolves into a back and forth tit for tat argument that goes in circles, an expenditure of energy that may be worthwhile to put to other uses.

On that vein, ie. the food industry is violent, recognize the violence everywhere in the food industry. Migrant workers are totally and completely exploited for profit. Women are sexually harassed, men women and CHILDREN are exploited in poor working conditions for little money, being exposed to dangerous chemicals and other dangers. The agri-business is huge and designed to be profitable (rather than nurturing, sustaining, and loving). All people that are hooked into the system participate in it by choice whether vegetarian or not. We all contribute to violence on some level if we buy food that has come out of this violent system. That goes for the production of plants, vegetarian foods. The growing and harvesting of plants is big business, and exploiting the underprivileged and poverty-stricken is a way to keep it profitable. It's a violent system that we have established on this planet, and violent on many many levels, in thoughts words and deeds.

Yes, the whole system is violent, including plant production. Many of us are working to change that by growing our own food as much as possible, and supporting local farmers' markets. That is a huge movement.

But it's important to remember that the vast majority of food crops are used to feed farm animals.

To stop eating meat is the obvious first step.

It's so bad that it can feel almost hopeless that anything we do will change it.

I have sometimes felt that way, but then I notice that nearly every restaurant now offers a veggie option, large cities now have several vegan restaurants (unheard of a couple of decades ago), and our numbers are growing. Did you know that 12% of British are either vegetarian or vegan??? WOW! This number rises to 20% among people aged 16-24.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country

There is even now a whole town in India that has gone totally veg! (Just saw that on facebook...don't have verification for it though.)

The question is: Is all this too little too late?

[Monica]

The Case Against Eating Ethically-Raised Meat:

http://time.com/3457587/the-case-against...ised-meat/

[Jade]

Something I just learned from a random article, about casein (the primary protein in cow's milk): when the body processes it, it is processed into casomorphin, an opioid. People are literally addicted to dairy. This is nature's way of ensuring that offspring continue to desire to nurse and therefore survive their early lives. Of course us humans, bucking the trend with our hedonism, have been taught to nurse (from another species) our whole lives, never breaking the addiction.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/natural-he...th-casein/

Ah, a decent scientific response to the ever-present, "I could never give up cheese!" retort.

[Rhayader]

The human body doesn't have fangs.

Mine does.

[Shemaya]

I had hoped...but that doesn't seem to be the case, at least not the Law of One students here at B4.

Hi Monica , is that's what you really think about people here at bring4th forum?

I just think here are spiritual seekers who are trying to make sense of a world and society that is very misaligned from their true-natures. And having found the Ra material, they study it because it helps them to understand. And coming to the forum, they hope to connect with and meet others who are like-minded.

Yes, but that's because of the misinterpretation of the term acceptance. It doesn't mean lethargy/apathy/non-action/no choice as is commonly believed. Choice is part of the equation.

Choices are made based on awareness and freedom.
I think our freedom of choice is very limited on this planet; I think however we can continually push forward to freedom though. The apathy comes from being in a state of perceived oppression, which if you look around at our society, clearly people are oppressed on many levels.

Those of us on the STO path, who choose to radiate and expand our connection to God, and expand infinite energy/intelligence / ie the Kingdom of God on this planet rather than continue in a disconnected and "Babylon" system, we are the ones who have to make the changes and take the action steps to create 4D. It is our work on clearing our own blockages within that will manifest the outer changes as most of us know.

Yes!

:idea:

Surely, those who have tirelessly advocated for non-violence are leading the way towards this reality. I think anyone who is on the STO path would agree to that. That is pretty much a given, right?

One would think. I sure did. But no, such is not the case, at least not as indicated by the discussions here.

Well maybe that is something to focus on, the concept of non-violence?

Could it not also be said that the outward violence is a manifestation of the violence we personally contribute to?

We all personally contribute to violence. If we can't see that, than we are kidding ourselves

On this basis, no child under the age of 5 will ever reach retirement age. It is mathematically impossible.

See his whole lecture here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5XX35L4fmQ#t=10

I haven't had time to watch this, so can't comment.

and developed purely for PROFIT. That is the culprit, imo. To reduce the responsibility of violence towards animals to enculturated "taste" is a bit shortsighted. We can't solve the problem by blaming each other for being less than our highest potential. We see what can happen there, it just devolves into a back and forth tit for tat argument that goes in circles, an expenditure of energy that may be worthwhile to put to other uses.

On that vein, ie. the food industry is violent, recognize the violence everywhere in the food industry. Migrant workers are totally and completely exploited for profit. Women are sexually harassed, men women and CHILDREN are exploited in poor working conditions for little money, being exposed to dangerous chemicals and other dangers. The agri-business is huge and designed to be profitable (rather than nurturing, sustaining, and loving). It's a violent system that we have established on this planet, and violent on many many levels, in thoughts words and deeds.

Yes, the whole system is violent, including plant production. Many of us are working to change that by growing our own food as much as possible, and supporting local farmers' markets. That is a huge movement.

But it's important to remember that the vast majority of food crops are used to feed farm animals.

To stop eating meat is the obvious first step.

Well I would think that actually the first step is more foundational than that because it starts in the mind. Agreeing to non-violence in thoughts, words and actions would be a first step imo. And then making effort and steps to being in integrity with oneself.

Also recognize that we are all part of the whole and contributing to a violent system. If you knew that the lettuce and cucumbers you were eating were harvested by a young girl about 12 years old who was depressed and thinking suicidal thoughts as she harvested the veggies for 9 hours in 99 degree temp, while a small plane overhead sprayed pesticide, how would you feel about the fresh vegetables your were eating? Would you think they were contaminated by bad energy or less nourishing or less spiritual? Have you thought about these kind of injustices?

I am pretty sure you probably have and make a lot of effort to be in integrity with yourself, but still despite all that effort, still there is personal contribution to violence.

It's so bad that it can feel almost hopeless that anything we do will change it.

The question is: Is all this too little too late?

I hope not. But what I know for sure is that we have to change many things for our society to be 4D. I think if we make steps towards that, commit to non-violence it will manifest in many ways, with our food choices being one of them. We will produce and consume food that is nourishing, holistic, sustainable, free of violence and within a context of a loving society, rather than a society that runs on a "for profit" value system. That's is the hugest problem from what I can see.

It makes total sense to grow our own foods and buy from farmer's markets...that seems to be a second step to me. I think coming down on the small farmers who raise chickens and other farm animals is shooting ourselves in the foot. The PTB love to see discord, division, opposition fighting one another. If you pit the "meat-eaters " against the vegetarians, then they can fight one another waste a lot of energy arguing with one another, meanwhile the smoke and mirrors provides the capitalistic for profit system a cover to keep grinding it's way to destroying our planet.

I think we should come to an agreement and be on the same team as people for a better society based on love and compassion, rather than the almighty dollar.