Why I am not a vegan

[Monica]

This sums it up.


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[Unbound]

Yeah, cause I'm a cannibal, om nom nom nom!

[Diana]

Yeah, cause I'm a cannibal, om nom nom nom!

In my opinion, your sarcasm reflects a cavalier and compassionless attitude. If you disagree with the post or feel offended by it, sarcasm is not the best way to deal it. Honesty is (in my opinion).

[Unbound]

I am being honest with my sarcasm, I assure you.

[Nicholas]

...so I cook them for my dogs, in coconut oil, then add cooked potatoes, some veggies like squash, a dash of salt and some nutritional yeast. They love it!

So would I!

[isis]

This sums it up.

for dinner tonight i ate the pain, the trauma, the slain, the horror, the stress, the murder, the mess, the voiceless, the caged, the helpless, the raged, the captured, the meek, the terror, the reek, the blood, the gore...& it was medium-rare & it was delicious

steak always makes me think of that scene in the matrix...the "ignorance is bliss" scene

hopefully some time i discover that the cow that i just ate was born for sole purpose of dying & having me eat some of it...crossing my fingers that there are no mistakes, that there's only harmony, & that it went thru precisely what it wanted to

i wouldn't mind things (other than worms/bacteria/fungus) eating me after i die. i don't want to be cremated or buried - i want people to eat me! (i'll taste good...like really good ham)

u think that's air you're breathing? u think that's meat you're eating?

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[Unbound]

We are all eating ourselves.

[Monica]

for dinner tonight i ate the pain, the trauma, the slain, the horror, the stress, the murder, the mess, the voiceless, the caged, the helpless, the raged, the captured, the meek, the terror, the reek, the blood, the gore...& it was medium-rare & it was delicious

Are you proud of what you did? Your statement seems to indicate pride.

steak always makes me think of that scene in the matrix...the "ignorance is bliss" scene

Are you in bliss? You surely cannot claim ignorance.

hopefully some time i discover that the cow that i just ate was born for sole purpose of dying & having me eat some of it...crossing my fingers that there are no mistakes, that there's only harmony, & that it went thru precisely what it wanted to

Then, by that logic, is it ok to murder a human? After all, that person went thru precisely what it wanted to, so why not just murder them? ...and go ahead and torture them first...why not?

i wouldn't mind things (other than worms/bacteria/fungus) eating me after i die. i don't want to be cremated or buried - i want people to eat me!

How convenient to say "AFTER I die" - you forgot the DYING part. Do you mind if they torture you 24/7 for a few years first before dismembering your body while you're still alive? Is that ok too?

u think that's air you're breathing? u think that's meat you're eating?

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Why limit the illusion to cows? You don't really think that child is real either, do you? So why not rape, torture and kill the human child too?

[Unbound]

Humans don't taste good.

[Monica]

Humans don't taste good.

So the only reason to not kill them is that they don't taste good? (Never mind how you happen to know that...) You seem to be essentially admitting that it's ok to torture and kill other sentient beings to satisfy your own tastes.

Is this not the very definition of STS?

[Unbound]

Depends if they want it or not.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/de...ukeharding

---

Never noticed that before, but apparently cannibalism isn't illegal in Germany, go figure.

[Monica]

Depends if they want it or not.

Yes it does, but c'mon, that is obviously a rare exception.

No, the average person does not want to be violated, tortured, killed, eaten. Obviously.

News Flash: Neither do cows, chickens, pigs or fish.

[Unbound]

I don't think anything with life WANTS to be in any way dismantled in a way that is not according to its own processes.

To be honest, there is basically one food that I consider to be "freely offered" and that is fruit, once it is ripe and ready to fall.

[Monica]

I don't think anything with life WANTS to be in any way dismantled in a way that is not according to its own processes.

To be honest, there is basically one food that I consider to be "freely offered" and that is fruit, once it is ripe and ready to fall.

I agree about the fruit. The vegetables issue has been debated ad nauseum. I ask you again: Harvest some lettuce leaves and see what happens to the lettuce plant the next day. Or dandelion, or purslane, or spinach...

Then kill a cow with your bare hands.

Compare.

[Unbound]

You act as though I have never met a plant or a cow. I assure you, my lack of urge to in any way damage the natural bodies (unless requiring the removal of already dead or severely diseased part to salvage the whole) of plant or animal is the same. However, I love to pick berries and fruit. Nuts are debatable since they are seeds in themselves and so when you eat them you usually destroy the information of the seed itself, whereas with fruit the seeds generally pass through the system. I usually am not in to nuts unless they are mixed with other things or are chocolate.

I could just live on chocolate. That would be worthwhile to me.

---

Although, I will admit for myself that I would probably have an easier time killing a human who was using their life for creating pain in others than I would killing an animal to eat it. In necessity, you gotta do what you gotta do but fortunately there aren't usually those kinds of situations in modern life.

---

In any and all situations of taking life force from anything else it is paramount, in my mind, to be full of love, appreciation and gratitude for what life you are receiving. I mean in reference to eating.

[Monica]

You act as though I have never met a plant or a cow.

Of course you've met plants and cows. But meeting them and killing them with your bare hands aren't the same.

I assure you, my lack of urge to in any way damage the natural bodies (unless requiring the removal of already dead or severely diseased part to salvage the whole) of plant or animal is the same.

The urge to do something and actually doing it aren't the same.

Carnivorous animals like cats have the urge to hunt and kill. It's instinctual.

Humans don't have an instinct to kill plants or animals. Some do so out of hunger, out of duty or livelihood, but not out of instinct. Most don't do it at all, but simply buy packaged items from the grocery store.

Point being that one's lack of 'urge' isn't an indication as to how one might feel if they actually did it.

The suggestion was to illustrate the difference between killing a cow vs tearing off some lettuce leaves. Even farmers, who kill animals on a daily basis, know that it's not the same. It's not even remotely the same.

However, I love to pick berries and fruit. Nuts are debatable since they are seeds in themselves and so when you eat them you usually destroy the information of the seed itself, whereas with fruit the seeds generally pass through the system. I usually am not in to nuts unless they are mixed with other things or are chocolate.

I agree that fruits are the least harmful and the highest-vibration diet for humans. (My husband and I are both about 90% fruitarian for this reason.)

In necessity, you gotta do what you gotta do but fortunately there aren't usually those kinds of situations in modern life.

Exactly. Eating isn't one of those situations. It simply isn't necessary to eat animals. Eating meat isn't a necessity.

Why, then, knowingly contribute to the torture and killing of beings whom you know feel pain and fear, when it isn't necessary?

In any and all situations of taking life force from anything else it is paramount, in my mind, to be full of love, appreciation and gratitude for what life you are receiving. I mean in reference to eating.

Yes, many people on this forum have stated that having gratitude when eating a dead animal somehow makes it ok...for them.

However, it does nothing for the animal.

Thus, it is STS.

[Unbound]

LOL You are very on about "STS" finger-pointing which makes the argument laughable to me.

I don't think anything is really, truly a necessity in life. I could let myself die if I wanted to. I could kill if I wanted to. So what?

We will never agree because there are fundamental beliefs about the nature of reality which we do not share. The only difference is that I am not trying to "convert" you.

---

Also, sure, it is different between animals and plants, but isn't the wisdom to know what feels natural a big part of awakening to self-knowing? As I have already said to you, I follow what feels right to body, mind and spirit and although you may perhaps convince me, who knows, I don't feel guilty about my dietary choices.

---

I would add that I can't imagine it does any more for the animal for it to be eaten by maggots.

[Monica]

LOL You are very on about "STS" finger-pointing which makes the argument laughable to me.

No finger pointing. Discussion of actions in regards to STO and STS is acceptable here. This is a Law of One forum. Ra is biased in favor of STO, as are many of the members here. Therefore, discussing whether a daily action is inherently STO or STS in its polarizing potential, is on-topic.

I don't think anything is really, truly a necessity in life. I could let myself die if I wanted to. I could kill if I wanted to. So what?

If you aren't concerned about polarity and truly don't care about whether others suffer as a result of your actions, then that is your choice.

If that's true, then why participate in this discussion at all?

We will never agree because there are fundamental beliefs about the nature of reality which we do not share.

Agreed. I engage in this discussion for the benefit of those who accept the Law of One as relatively undistorted. Not everyone here does, so their foundation of belief might be very different.

My views are from the perspective of what I understand from Ra regarding the Density of Choice and the STS/STO paths. From this perspective, the unnecessary torture and killing of animals is an important issue.

The only difference is that I am not trying to "convert" you.

I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else. I'm trying to help the animals.

Do you not hear their cries? I do.

---

I would add that I can't imagine it does any more for the animal for it to be eaten by maggots.

Again you are focusing on what happens to the empty vehicle after the animal soul has left it. That is irrelevant.

i am talking about what happens when the animal soul is still inhabiting the body: pain, fear, torture, dismembering...violent, painful death.

I invite you to shift your perspective a bit: away from YOU eating the animal. Try imagining what it is like being that animal. See from the animal's eyes. Feel its pain, when that cow bellows in fear and pain...still alive...NOT what YOU feel eating her body, but what SHE feels as she is stuck inside a filthy stall, unable to even turn around, for her entire life, crippled from growth hormones, in constant pain, then prodded towards the slaughter, hearing the cries of her sisters, smelling the stench of their fear-soaked blood, feeling the knife slicing her throat and her lifeblood pouring out...and dying a slow, agonizing death.

---

isn't the wisdom to know what feels natural a big part of awakening to self-knowing?

Does it feel natural to kill a cow with your bare hands?

---

You are everything you choose.

Exactly! It is incongruous for those aspiring to the STO path to choose unnecessary violence.

[Unbound]

Um, no, I said it doesn't even feel natural to pick plant leaves, nor does killing any creature.

Also, why do you assume I have not ever considered those conditions or put myself in their state? It is because I have that I make the approach that I do, it is because I know the pain that I attempt to heal whatever I eat, plant or animal. You aren't even talking to me, you're having an imaginary conversation with some person in your mind whom you have demonized.

That I have not reached the same conclusion as you doesn't mean I haven't made the same considerations. I consider it very hurtful that you do not care about the state of the energy of the animal after it has died. I consider it bizarre that you would rather just have that life thrown to maggots rather than transmuted in to higher energy states and repairing of the dissonance still locked in the flesh.

I have never, at any point in this discussion, disagreed that the treatment of animals in many farming settings are heinous and atrocious.

Also, I hope you are indeed aware that your particular interpretation and understanding of STO/STS and the density of choice is not the only nor necessarily the "correct" one? (Not that I'm sure there is a correct one.)

STS is about control. You're trying to save the animals, but attempting to control humans as you do so. Sounds kind of STS to me. (Yes, that is sarcastic. Figure I should specify since everyone seems to take that s*** seriously.)

---

Unnecessary violence isn't really useful to either path.

[isis]

for dinner tonight i ate the pain, the trauma, the slain, the horror, the stress, the murder, the mess, the voiceless, the caged, the helpless, the raged, the captured, the meek, the terror, the reek, the blood, the gore...& it was medium-rare & it was delicious

Are you proud of what you did? Your statement seems to indicate pride.

i'm happy i got to taste something i really enjoy tasting - praise be to god from whom all blessings flow. one day i'll pay that cow back big-time, assuming this is possible

hopefully in the future i can eat something that tastes exactly like a steak but isn't one...star trek replicator thingy to synthesize any taste imaginable, that isn't actually food, from any planet...until then i'm ok with having meat about once a year

steak always makes me think of that scene in the matrix...the "ignorance is bliss" scene

Are you in bliss? You surely cannot claim ignorance.

when things taste good to me i definitely feel something i would call bliss...

hopefully some time i discover that the cow that i just ate was born for sole purpose of dying & having me eat some of it...crossing my fingers that there are no mistakes, that there's only harmony, & that it went thru precisely what it wanted to

Then, by that logic, is it ok to murder a human? After all, that person went thru precisely what it wanted to, so why not just murder them? ...and go ahead and torture them first...why not?

it may be ok for someone to murder a human. it's not ok for me to, bc i don't think it's ok - well, maybe ok if they really wanted me to. i think it's ok for someone to murder themselves if they want

the only things that should be tortured are the things that want to be. we all know this

i wouldn't mind things (other than worms/bacteria/fungus) eating me after i die. i don't want to be cremated or buried - i want people to eat me!

How convenient to say "AFTER I die" - you forgot the DYING part. Do you mind if they torture you 24/7 for a few years first before dismembering your body while you're still alive? Is that ok too?

there is a chance some *eternal* soul out there could actually want to experience 24/7 torture until death - i try to look on the bright side of things. dark art isn't for everyone...but it is for some people. imo, it's all art/light/love & if the one *infinite* creator wants to have a dark "psychical" experience we can bet it'll get just that

u think that's air you're breathing? u think that's meat you're eating?

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Why limit the illusion to cows? You don't really think that child is real either, do you? So why not rape, torture and kill the human child too?

i hate anyone capable of committing unwanted cruelty & want to banish them from my reality (even though i think it's all light/illusion/perfection) but i can't seem to do that right now...& don't have my replicator yet...so i think i'll stick to having meat once a year

[Monica]

Um, no, I said it doesn't even feel natural to pick plant leaves, nor does killing any creature.

I got that. I didn't disagree. Did you miss what I said about carnivorous animals having instincts to kill but we don't?

Therefore, there is simply no reason to kill animals whom we know feel pain, which by the way also causes more death to plants, who might feel pain. It's completely illogical to justify the killing of animals based on the idea that plants might feel pain too. And you admitted that they aren't the same.

Given that they're not the same, and given that animals eat plants so killing animals kills even more plants than eating just plants, and given that one could thrive on only fruit, nuts and seeds (though they'd be healthier if they also included veggies), the end result is: Why do it? Why kill the animals at all?

Also, why do you assume I have not ever considered those conditions or put myself in their state?

I didn't assume. I concluded, based on your choice of words. I can go by only what you say. Your words repeatedly were from your own perspective, whereas vegans tend to see the situation from the animals' perspective.

It is because I have that I make the approach that I do, it is because I know the pain that I attempt to heal whatever I eat, plant or animal.

Are you 'healing' the meat, so that it's less harmful for you?

Or, are you attempting to 'heal' the animal?

That animal's soul is long gone. S/he was killed days, weeks, or maybe even months ago, in a state of terror and pain. It's too late. The damage is done. Even if you remove the concept of linear time, it's not effective to knowingly cause suffering to an entity, then saying "oops, sorry, I hope you heal" then keep doing it. That makes no sense. That's not remorse, it's not amends. It's self-serving.

You aren't even talking to me, you're having an imaginary conversation with some person in your mind whom you have demonized.

I haven't demonized anyone. I do label the eating of meat as an STS act, yes I do.

I intentionally don't address your own personal choices, in an attempt to avoid judging you as a person. I intentionally speak about concepts, rather than individuals. I have zero interest in what you choose. My interest is in intellectual discourse about a very important topic...one that affects the whole planet.

I consider it very hurtful that you do not care about the state of the energy of the animal after it has died.

You misunderstood. I do indeed care about the energy of the animal. That is what drives me to help awaken people about the cycle of violence they are perpetuating with their dietary 'choices.' I have even speculated that those animal souls are more likely to polarize STS because of their traumatic experiences.

I don't care about the physical substance of your hamburger. I do care about the soul of the cow whose body is being eaten.

I consider it bizarre that you would rather just have that life thrown to maggots rather than transmuted in to higher energy states and repairing of the dissonance still locked in the flesh.

Again, you continue to focus only on the body after death. I ask you again to shift your focus to the life of the cow before death...when she was being tortured...and the HOW of her death...that she was brutally killed.

Cattle, chickens, turkeys and pigs are artificially bred, for the purpose of satisfying human desire for their meat. The farm animal population is many orders of magnitude greater than it would be in the wild. Were it not for the meat industry, we wouldn't have billions of farm animals. Their population in the wild would be much smaller, they would live a natural life, and their bodies returned to the Earth.

I am incredulous that you seem to be saying a cow living a life of torture, killed after an abnormally short lifespan, all to satisfy the human taste for meat, is somehow more noble than returning to the Earth? How could that possibly 'repair the dissonance locked in the flesh' or 'transmute to higher energy states'?

I have never, at any point in this discussion, disagreed that the treatment of animals in many farming settings are heinous and atrocious.

Then I am confused. You have clearly been arguing in favor of supporting that heinous, atrocious practice.

Also, I hope you are indeed aware that your particular interpretation and understanding of STO/STS and the density of choice is not the only nor necessarily the "correct" one? (Not that I'm sure there is a correct one.)

Of course. That's why I was careful to say "my interpretation".

STS is about control. You're trying to save the animals, but attempting to control humans as you do so. Sounds kind of STS to me. (Yes, that is sarcastic. Figure I should specify since everyone seems to take that s*** seriously.)

Nope. Not trying to control anyone at all. Not my motivation. It may look the same to you, but it's not the same at all. My motivation is only to help the animals.

I couldn't control what others do anyway, even if I wanted to.

Unnecessary violence isn't really useful to either path.

I disagree. It's very useful to those on the STS path.

[Unbound]

/facepalm

I'm outta here, this isn't a discussion.

---

All I can say is what I said before, I'm not the one mowing lawns or dismembering cows.

[Monica]

All I can say is what I said before, I'm not the one mowing lawns or dismembering cows.

Before you go, would you mind answering a question? It's an honest question:

If Johnny pay Jimmy for meat, knowing full well that Jimmy tortures the cow and then brutally kills her in order to produce the meat, isn't Johnny just as responsible as Jimmy?

If Johnny didn't buy the meat, Jimmy would have to find some other work. Therefore, Johnny supports Jimmy's business and is therefore a participant in the atrocity, no?

[Unbound]

No, because Jimmy may then take that torture and brutality and simply take it out on someone else or somewhere else. The brutality of that individual would not be abated by the choice of the buyer, and so abuse would continue just in a different form.

Now, would Johnny not be using his choice to potentially alter the conditions of the animals which he could possibly do by attempting to show Jimmy a better way? True, but that is indifference, not self-serving. Self-serving would be asking to join in on the torture. Service would be the attempt to heal Jimmy of his violent and torturous tendencies.

[Diana]

for dinner tonight i ate the pain, the trauma, the slain, the horror, the stress, the murder, the mess, the voiceless, the caged, the helpless, the raged, the captured, the meek, the terror, the reek, the blood, the gore...& it was medium-rare & it was delicious

Are you proud of what you did? Your statement seems to indicate pride.

i'm happy i got to taste something i really enjoy tasting - praise be to god from whom all blessings flow. one day i'll pay that cow back big-time, assuming this is possible

hopefully in the future i can eat something that tastes exactly like a steak but isn't one...star trek replicator thingy to synthesize any taste imaginable, that isn't actually food, from any planet...until then i'm ok with having meat about once a year

Praise be to god????? Are you kidding? If you're a Christian then I get your callousness. Everything seems to be okay in Christianity including violence of the most extreme nature to everything from animals to pregnant women and children, spelled out right there in the bible. If you're not a Christian, the statement is still ludicrous in this context.

And all this Matrix bull****. It's nothing but rationalization. As Monica said, are you going to torture and kill a child because nothing is real?

Is that air you're breathing? Yes. This existence is a part of reality. Pain is real. Slice off your leg and tell me it isn't.

I have officially lost my cool with so much utter BS, ignorance, and unkindness over the issue of eating animals. IT'S NOT NECESSARY. THE TORTURE AND CRUELTY OF ANIMALS IS NOT NECESSARY.

I'll give you one thing, you had the honesty to admit it's for TASTE. :@

[Monica]

No, because Jimmy may then take that torture and brutality and simply take it out on someone else or somewhere else. The brutality of that individual would not be abated by the choice of the buyer, and so abuse would continue just in a different form.

In my understanding of the Law of One, STS entities serve a purpose, but we are in the density of Choice, so whether we choose to participate in brutality affects our own polarity and the mass consciousness as well.

Each time Johnny chooses compassionate acts over violent ones, he is affecting the mass consciousness. This includes Jimmy, his victims, and the whole planet.

Choices matter.

Now, would Johnny not be using his choice to potentially alter the conditions of the animals which he could possibly do by attempting to show Jimmy a better way?

Yes indeed. If Johnny simply refused to eat meat altogether, he would, over time, awaken others, simply by being who he is. As other awaken, the demand for meat would decrease, and eventually Jimmy would have to learn how to grow tomatoes, which would affect the economy as well as the environment, even politics...eventually leading to less starvation and a lighter, brighter planet that is no longer weighed down by all that suffering.

Think about the emotional weight of billions of animals suffering on a daily basis. We are all affected by that.

But even if Johnny's choice saved only a few cows per year, it is still significant...to those cows. Those cows matter.

True, but that is indifference, not self-serving. Self-serving would be asking to join in on the torture. Service would be the attempt to heal Jimmy of his violent and torturous tendencies.

I see it complete opposite. Self-serving is choosing to eat meat, despite knowing that this choice contributes to the suffering of sentient beings.

Attempting to 'heal' Jimmy of his violent and torturous tendencies would actually be STS; that is trying to control.

Johnny cannot control what Jimmy does. Johnny is responsible only for his own choices.

---

This is the kind of discussion I am interested in!! Not about what you or I do personally, but about concepts, within the context of the Law of One!

---

for dinner tonight i ate the pain, the trauma, the slain, the horror, the stress, the murder, the mess, the voiceless, the caged, the helpless, the raged, the captured, the meek, the terror, the reek, the blood, the gore...& it was medium-rare & it was delicious

Are you proud of what you did? Your statement seems to indicate pride.

i'm happy i got to taste something i really enjoy tasting - praise be to god from whom all blessings flow. one day i'll pay that cow back big-time, assuming this is possible

hopefully in the future i can eat something that tastes exactly like a steak but isn't one...star trek replicator thingy to synthesize any taste imaginable, that isn't actually food, from any planet...until then i'm ok with having meat about once a year

Praise be to god????? Are you kidding? If you're a Christian then I get your callousness. Everything seems to be okay in Christianity including violence of the most extreme nature to everything from animals to pregnant women and children, spelled out right there in the bible. If you're not a Christian, the statement is still ludicrous in this context.

And all this Matrix bull****. It's nothing but rationalization. As Monica said, are you going to torture and kill a child because nothing is real?

Is that air you're breathing? Yes. This existence is a part of reality. Pain is real. Slice off your leg and tell me it isn't.

I have officially lost my cool with so much utter BS, ignorance, and unkindness over the issue of eating animals. IT'S NOT NECESSARY. THE TORTURE AND CRUELTY OF ANIMALS IS NOT NECESSARY.

I'll give you one thing, you had the honesty to admit it's for TASTE. :@

Thank you, Diana, for saying what I wanted to say. I was so incredulous...I was speechless. But you said it well.

[Unbound]

So what happens if Jimmy's business falls through because no one will buy and unable to make ends meet (hehe meat) he and his family end up as beggars? Would you say that they deserve that because they shouldn't have been selling meat in the first place?

My point here is that there is a ripple effect to everything and if we could just stop for a day and rearrange the whole world so that everything was better that would be great, but the fact of the matter is that it's not going to be a painless process. There will be suffering in the process of ending suffering.

[Monica]

So what happens if Jimmy's business falls through because no one will buy and unable to make ends meet (hehe meat) he and his family end up as beggars? Would you say that they deserve that because they shouldn't have been selling meat in the first place?

When cars were invented, blacksmiths and horse carriage makers adapted. Change happens.

My point here is that there is a ripple effect to everything and if we could just stop for a day and rearrange the whole world so that everything was better that would be great, but the fact of the matter is that it's not going to be a painless process. There will be suffering in the process of ending suffering.

Learning to grow tomatoes instead of raising cows cannot be compared to being tortured and killed.

We can't change the world overnight but this planet is really f***** up. We need to get started. Why not start with ourselves?

As a wise man once said: Be the change you want to see in the world.

[isis]

the cow i ate some of was named moon & it lived a long & happy life & died of old age...it was a gift...

& a cow whisperer told me that the cow said it wanted me to eat some of it when it died - since it knows how much i like the taste...all is well...

[Unbound]

Ahaha Cow whisperer, priceless.