Why I am not a vegan

[GreatSpirit]

Vitamin B12...nuff said

[Billy]

Supplements?

[Matt1]

I agree, you cannot have a fully natural vegan diet without the use of some type of supplement.

[xise]

I don't know what specifically you mean by "natural", but there are organic, non-gmo bacteria and algae based b12 supplements.


Personally, I'd have no problem referring to those supplements as natural supplements. They're certainly not artificial or processed more than something like natural flour (unless you also consider something like wheat flour to be a non-natural, processed food. Then I think that logic makes sense if you're all about paleo-type food being the only natural food). YMMV.


At any rate, one of the most intelligent appellate attorneys I had the privilege of working with in California was vegan for years when I met him. It's too bad I don't have his contact info anymore. Trailblazing people usually have much knowledge to share with the rest of us. Trailblazing in the sense that unlike diary-only vegetarianism, which has been proven to be viable without major health concerns for thousands of years by generations of people - see Jains & Jainism - veganism doesn't have hundreds/thousands of years long track record over a number of generations. It's definitely exciting times to be alive from a dietary perspective.

[Jade]

I use fortified nutritional yeast. I've never worried about it for a moment. Over two years and I'm not dead yet!

[BlatzAdict]

Monica would be your resident expert on this.

However B12 is found in blue green algae.

[Plenum]

yeah, diet is a personal choice.

giving labels to various diets is somewhat artificial. For eg, there are many ways to do vegetarianism, as there are to doing veganism. There are compassionate ways to be an omnivore. And there are self critical ways to being meat-free.

diet really is as personal as one's sex life.

[isis]

diet really is as personal as one's sex life.

lol idk about that

[Aaron]

Just be intelligent about it... Do research. Find out what exactly your body needs and where to get it.

http://www.methylcobalamininfo.com/vitam...-are-they/

"There are a few important differences between these different forms of B12. Firstly, you have to understand that humans cannot produce their own vitamin B12, and nor can any other plant or animal or fungus. This means we have to get all of our B12 from our diets. But where does it come from in the first place?

Only bacteria have the ability to synthesize this vitamin, so all the B12 you’ve ever ingested was originally produced by a bacterium somewhere. All animals have bacteria living in and on them (a situation referred to as ‘bacterial symbiosis’), and as a result the food we eat will often contain B12, especially animal products.

The awkward part is that the bacteria only produce hydroxocobalamin. This wouldn’t be a problem, except this type of B12 isn’t actually of any use to us in itself. Before we can reap the benefits of this essential vitamin, we have to convert the hydroxocobalamin into one of the so-called ‘active’ forms of B12 – either methylcobalamin or adenosylcobalamin, which your body is capable of switching between if necessary."

Basically, from the 10 minutes of internet searching I performed, which uncovered the quoted article, among a few others, has lead me to form an opinion which I can now share. My opinion is thus: to ensure an efficient level of B12 production and absorption in a vegetarian body, one must be consuming a moderate level of fermented foods, so that the bacteria in that food will be producing B12 before they pass into the large intestine, where B12 can no longer be absorbed.

Basically, you gotta make sure your small intestine is well cultured with beneficial, B12 producing bacteria. The easiest way to do this is by eating cultured, fermented foods such as kim-chi. Jade mentioned nutritional yeast. This is also a great source of energy-producing bacteria.

Of course, you could always supplement.
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Met...null&ic=11
I have that in my supplement collection at the moment.

[Jade]

Delicious sauerkraut! I eat it by the spoonful!

[AnthroHeart]

I like the taste and texture of meat too much.

Kim-Chi is delicious.

[Jade]

They make some pretty amazing meat substitutes these days. Basically any sausage is replicable. A couple weeks ago I bought what I thought were veggie burgers but they turned out to be veggie steak filets and they were almost too convincing, lol.

[xise]

I've always been curious as to how often people have actually tried out going vegetarian for a short while, like a month, rather than just speculating about whether they could or could not live without meat.

It never really seemed that hard, and I love the taste of meat. I do miss the overall experience of grilling (you can grill veggies, but it's not the same bonding experience as grilling a steak to rare perfection, smoking a cig, and having a beer with the guys), but overall, I'm good with that.

[GreatSpirit]

Top 5 Natural "Vegetarian" sources of Vitamin B12 (Cobalamin)

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articl...kufmUhS.99

If you are vegetarian, or considering going vegetarian, then getting enough vitamin B12 should be of concern to you. A slight deficiency of vitamin B-12, or Cobalamin, can lead to anemia, fatigue, mania, and depression, while a long term deficiency can potentially cause permanent damage to the brain and central nervous system. If you are not eating meat and want to maintain a natural diet then it is essential that you incorporate the natural vegetarian foods below into your diet. Vitamin supplements are also available.

#1: Cheese
The amount of vitamin B12 in cheese depends on type and variety, Swiss cheese provides the most with 3.34μg per 100g serving (56% DV), followed by Gjetost(40% DV), Mozzarella(39% DV), Tilsit(35% DV), and Feta(28% DV).


#2: Eggs
When it comes to chicken eggs the raw yellow has most of the vitamin B-12 with 1.95μg per 100g serving (33% DV), however, this equates to 0.33μg per yolk or just 6% of the DV. The eggs of other animals are higher with a goose egg providing 7.34μg (122% DV) of vitamin B-12 per 100g serving, and a duck egg providing 3.78μg (63% DV).


#3: Whey Powder
Once thought the sole domain of body builders, whey powder is now entering main stream as more people are going vegetarian. Whey powder is a common addition to breads and smoothies, 100 grams will provide 2.5 μg of vitamin B12 or 42% of the DV.


#4: Milk and Yogurt
100 grams of non-fat yogurt provides 0.53μg (10% DV) of vitamin B12 and 15%DV per cup. 100 grams of reduced fat milk provides 0.46μg (8% DV) and 19% DV per cup.


#5: Yeast extract Spreads (Marmite)
Yeast extract spreads are popular in Britain and Europe, and have started to gain popularity in the U.S. A good vegetarian source of protein, the spread also packs a lot of vitamin B12. One hundred grams provides 0.5μg (8% DV) of vitamin B12, that is 0.03μg (1% DV) per teaspoon.

[Monica]

Vitamin B12...nuff said

I don't understand. How is supporting the unnecessary torture and killing of sentient beings preferable to taking a simple, cheap supplement?

I was a vegetarian for many years before making the commitment to vegan. I rationalized that dairy was only a 'byproduct' of the meat industry. However, I was wrong. The dairy industry and the meat industry feed each other. The dairy industry causes extreme suffering, actual torture to dairy cows on a daily basis. They are injected with hormones to artificially increase milk production (which stays in the milk, by the way), resulting in crippling and extreme pain.

And that's not even getting into what they do to the calves...

The idea of 'milk from contented cows' is an obscene lie.

[Account1]

I used to be a vegetarian but the moral high ground didn't make cabbage any tastier.

[Monica]

I used to be a vegetarian but the moral high ground didn't make cabbage any tastier.

Morals serve a purpose. Without morals, it would still be legal to have blacks as slaves.

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Monica would be your resident expert on this.

However B12 is found in blue green algae.

Yes, in the bluegreen algae from Klamath Lake. Tests show it is genuine B12.

Another popular bluegreen algae, Spirulina, has a B12 analog, which actually inhibits B12 absorption.

Fermented foods may contain B12, or they might not. Not reliable.

People often use B12 as a justification to eat meat. Actually, humans can make their own B12 just as well as any animal, the same way other animals do - from plants.

The only difference is that we now wash our produce. If we ate our food fresh out of the ground, with some dirt still on it, the way our ancestors did, we'd get plenty of B12, because our bodies need the bacteria found in dirt to manufacture B12.

It's really not a big deal though. B12 is a total non-issue. A B12 supplement is under $10 and will last many months. In return, we improve our own health, help the environment, and live more compassionately.

I'd say that's a bargain!

[Account1]

Morals serve a purpose. Without morals, it would still be legal to have blacks as slaves.

You are confusing morals that you approve of with morals as a whole. Slavery was introduced in the west under a different ethical standard, not lacking a sense of ethics altogether.
Of course, it is up to the individual to discern what is an acceptable standard of morality and what they consider moral themselves.

But claiming that one's own morals are superior than others is always worth raising an eyebrow for.

[Monica]

Trailblazing in the sense that unlike diary-only vegetarianism, which has been proven to be viable without major health concerns for thousands of years by generations of people - see Jains & Jainism - veganism doesn't have hundreds/thousands of years long track record over a number of generations. It's definitely exciting times to be alive from a dietary perspective.

True. We are pioneers, and we've made some mistakes. It has been a learning process and I'm very grateful for those who are paving the way. New studies such as The China Study support our experience that veganism is the healhiest diet for humans.

We do have some heroes!

Vegan Athletes

Sexiest Vegan Over 70 (I want to be like her when I grow up!)

Sickly, scrawny raw vegans

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You are confusing morals that you approve of with morals as a whole. Slavery was introduced in the west under a different ethical standard, not lacking a sense of ethics altogether.
Of course, it is up to the individual to discern what is an acceptable standard of morality and what they consider moral themselves.

But claiming that one's own morals are superior than others is always worth raising an eyebrow for.

First of all, I never claimed that my own morals are 'superior.' You used those words, not me.

Secondly, it has nothing to do with what I personally 'approve of' but with Law of One principles.

We know from the Law of One that both paths are acceptable. However, to someone who is aspiring to polarize STO, compassionate actions are preferable to cruel actions. (I define ''preferable' here as polarizing to one's chosen path, in the context of the Law of One; ie. cruel actions would be preferable for one aspiring to polarize STS.)

Meat-eaters often accuse vegans of being moralistic, as though that were somehow worse than supporting cruelty. I don't get that.

I guess the slave 'owners' accused those working to free the blacks of being 'moralistic' too. Oh well, then we are in good company!

[Account1]

You obviously hold a great deal of passion for this subject.

First of all, I never claimed that my own morals are 'superior.' You used those words, not me.

Well you did say this

How is supporting the unnecessary torture and killing of sentient beings preferable to taking a simple, cheap supplement

Simultaneously demonizing those who don't share the same sentiment and displaying a sense of conviction in the purity of your own ideals. You then went on to say that without morals blacks would still be slaves. I take it you don't approve of slavery, it doesn't render a positive judgement in your ethical standard, what you do and don't find acceptable, so yes it does have a great deal to do with what you approve of.

So is everything acceptable in a cosmic light? wouldn't it be rather dissonant to think that everything is acceptable and to even have morals?

However, to someone who is aspiring to polarize STO, compassionate actions are preferable to cruel actions.

So it this desire to "polarize", to achieve harvest/purity/salvation that drives you to avoid cruelty? Not good for good's sake? Wouldn't that be as selfish as eating meat for pleasure and survival?

[Monica]

You obviously hold a great deal of passion for this subject.

Ah, maybe you are rather new here? Pleased to meet you, Account1!

First of all, I never claimed that my own morals are 'superior.' You used those words, not me.

Well you did say this

How is supporting the unnecessary torture and killing of sentient beings preferable to taking a simple, cheap supplement

That was an honest question, to which no one yet has offered a reply.

Simultaneously demonizing those who don't share the same sentiment and displaying a sense of conviction in the purity of your own ideals.

Demonizing? Gosh, such strong language!

You then went on to say that without morals blacks would still be slaves. I take it you don't approve of slavery,

Um...no, I don't. Does any decent person approve of slavery nowadays? I thought that was kinda basic.

it doesn't render a positive judgement in your ethical standard, what you do and don't find acceptable, so yes it does have a great deal to do with what you approve of.

Of course I don't 'approve' of slavery, or any other cruelty. But why are you making this about me? Let's talk about the cruelty to animals vs taking a supplement. That is the topic.

So is everything acceptable in a cosmic light? wouldn't it be rather dissonant to think that everything is acceptable and to even have morals?

That is a deeper question, and there are surely other threads that address that. Have you read the Law of One?

However, to someone who is aspiring to polarize STO, compassionate actions are preferable to cruel actions.

So it this desire to "polarize", to achieve harvest/purity/salvation that drives you to avoid cruelty? Not good for good's sake? Wouldn't that be as selfish as eating meat for pleasure and survival?

If that was the motivation, then yes, it would be selfish and in fact wouldn't even help polarization anyway, because it's for the wrong reasons.

But no, that isn't the reason. The vast majority of vegetarians and vegans have never even heard of the Law of One, so obviously that's not the reason they've decided to live more compassionately. I was a vegetarian several years before I ever read the Law of One, and I decided to go vegan when my eyes were opened to the cruelty in the dairy industry.

The reason I said that was because 1. we are on a Law of One forum, and 2. I was directly responding to something you said about moralizing. I was trying to make the point that there are ideals higher than one's own personal biases.

and 3. There is a history on this forum. Check out the other meat threads. Apparently many people don't care about ending cruelty for the sake of the animals, and interpret Ra as giving tacit approval of eating animals. I vehemently disagree with that interpretation, and was trying to simplify in terms of STS and STO.

[Billy]

Monica you are amazing.

[Monica]

Monica you are amazing.

Awww....thanks!

[Account1]

Ah fair enough don't take me to personally lol

Have you read the Law of One?

Yes but (apparently unfortunately) I didn't find it compelling enough to accept as truth so I'm familiar with the concepts but don't believe them to be factual, thus some of our contrasting assumptions.

[Unbound]

Vitamin B12...nuff said

I don't understand. How is supporting the unnecessary torture and killing of sentient beings preferable to taking a simple, cheap supplement?

What is killed and what by-products are produced in the creation of said supplement?

Also, I view plants as sentient too so eating them is still killing sentient beings. They are still bred and raised for our consumption. (I know you believe there is a difference in the sentience of plants and believe that plants "offer" themselves whereas animals do not, but I think that is a nonsense cop-out of your own projection of "morals".)

[Diana]

I like to proceed from the working theory that we are evolving, as is everything including the universe and the intelligent source from which all is manifesting.

Following this idea that we are all evolving, what are we evolving to? The answer seems simple: We are evolving to whatever we create.

I feel it is imperative for any beings who have incarnated as humans on this planet at this time of potentially destructive technology (for one thing), who have the awareness and capability, to contribute to the visualization and creation of a more evolved, peaceful, and harmonious existence, free of the enormous suffering and cruelty rampant here now.

For those not aware, capable, or even interested in contributing—fine. We all make choices and have free will.

My visualization, and this is reflected in the Ra material, is that we as beings will evolve to the point that we can exist from light (which appears freely given and not depleted when given), and not have to take any sort of life for sustenance.

It is logical, then, to take whatever steps one can toward the end goal one has in mind. If evolving to a being who can exist from light only and not take life in order to live is the goal, consuming plants rather than animals makes sense as a step toward that goal. Plants are closer to light; they use photosynthesis. And they do indeed offer at least parts of themselves as food; it is necessary for their survival (fruits, seeds; propagation).

And as for cruelty, it's a no-brainer. Trim a plant and it thrives. Cut off a leg of a cow, and it dies. Is it difficult to surmise that the plant did not suffer as much as the cow in this scenario?

[Unbound]

Do you know that by this visualization you have and your continued impression of it aids yourself and all others in actually achieving this? Belief is very powerful.

[Monica]

(I know you believe there is a difference in the sentience of plants and believe that plants "offer" themselves whereas animals do not, but I think that is a nonsense cop-out of your own projection of "morals".)

Have you ever had a garden, Unbound? I do. When I tear a few lettuce leaves off the plant, I always marvel at how the plant seems to double in size by the next day! With my purslane plants especially, it seems that the more I pick, the faster they grow!

Have you ever done that? Harvested some greens?

Now, have you ever killed a cow? Did you try cutting one of her legs off first to see what might happen? Then the other leg. Did the cow seem to enjoy it and offer up more legs for you to 'harvest'? Did you look the cow in the eyes as you dismembered her?

Have you ever mowed your lawn? Did each blade of grass writhe in agony, as the cow did? Was the smell of the freshly cut grass similar to the stench of the cow's blood as it spurted from the cow's body, or the stench of the cow's bowels as they loosened in terror?

Did the freshly-cut grass smell like that?

[AnthroHeart]

Do they really cut the legs off cows while they're still alive?

[Unbound]

All I can say is that yes, I have experienced the grass screaming and the plants lamenting at their lost limbs. It doesn't matter that they grow back, there is still grief. I no more wish to harm or torture a plant than I do an animal. I eat because my body requires it (at least until I figure out this whole sustaining oneself on pure light thing) and I work with the principles of transmutation, thus believing anything I ingest is naturally of the domain of death and rebirth and it is my duty and honour to respect and offer thanks to all that I eat, regardless of where or what it came from for this is unconditional love and respect for all and each, including myself.

Your astral "horrors" and dramatic displays of attempted woe-ing to compassion does little more than reveal your own deep-set fears of being like an animal in such conditions, of being caged and tortured. I agree that the killing of animals is, in and of itself, a horrific experience, and I believe that it is no less horrific to see the destruction of plants so I see neither carnivorous behaviour or herbivorous behaviour nor omnivorous behaviour as being any particularly better than any other.

Either way you are consuming life, you are eating of the plate of death.

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Do they really cut the legs off cows while they're still alive?

No, they do not, normally. Of course, that isn't to say there aren't sadistic individuals in the world.