"...spirit complex, though apparent rather than real...having existed potentially"

[Parsons]

Adonai, it seems you have a different definition for the word Mind as used in the Ra material, myself, and others on this forums. So really this seems like a debate on semantics.

[anagogy]

Where in the material does it say that 1 = 1? One could equal two and The Law of One could be The Law of Two.

This doesn't even make sense to me. I have no idea what you're saying.

It's also kind of silly considering that you just berated me earlier for "making inferences" not directly stated in the material. And now you seem to be saying something along the lines of "read between the lines" which is the exact opposite.

This is not about the material's content itself anymore. It's about what the material directly says through the English language and its use of it. Edit: It's about using the proper, agreed definitions of the words at hand. We either say Ra is competent and use words as they are intended or is speaking in mystic garble that can be interpreted every which way.

Oh, right, because no definition is ever stretched beyond its normal dictionary definition in channeled material. Nope. Never at all.

Puh-leez.

There are only so many ways to define "Thought" and to define it beyond the confines of the mind is to pretty much take the standard English vocabulary and say it no longer applies. We might as well all talk in word salad indian virtue guinea pig is alive intelligence....

Really? So how does Ra's use of the word "density" line up with the dictionary definition?

Or how about Ra's use of the word "galaxy".

Or how about Ra's use of the word "mind".

Or Ra's use of the word "spirit".

Go ahead, read the dictionary definition. It doesn't match up.

Geez, I guess you must be challenging Ra's ability to use language.

Adonai, you seem much more interested in being right, semantically, than finding out what is actually true.

[Adonai One]

Adonai, it seems you have a different definition for the word Mind as used in the Ra material...

Citation needed.

---

A rock.

Physical laws entail thought within the rock's beingness, elemental structures that would collapse without the intelligent infinity imbued within it. Nope. A rock has thought according to panpsychic theory. A rock has a mind that is shared with the planetary mind.

[Parsons]

I could cite all of your posts in this thread but that would be kind of silly.

[Adonai One]

Cite Ra stating that thought can be made without the function and concept of a mind. Directly.

Where does Ra say that thought as a concept does not originate from a conscious all-mind?

---

Relevant concept they use:

http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?q=%22all-mind%22

---

Also, the reason I discuss this in a intense manner is for the guests of this forum. I believe the guest needs to hear all points of view completely so they can discern with a full-scope of perspectives.

[Spaced]

Cite Ra stating that thought is a function of the mind alone.

You always demand others to prove their points but never prove your own. So funny

[Adonai One]

Spaced, thought is the primary function of the mind alone until proven otherwise. This is what society has agreed for the English language. This is the most probable assumption. There is no need for me to prove my point. It is assumed inherently true.

What you all have is the burden of proving that Ra doesn't know what the meaning of thought is.

Thought is the mind until proven otherwise. There is no other case of it being otherwise. Again, the burden of the proof is on all of you who came up with the new, unfounded, undiscovered, unstated idea (not found at all, directly, in the Ra Material) that thought is something beyond the mind. I am not coming up with new theories here. You guys are.

---

This is like asking me to prove Ra believes the sky is blue. It's absurd. It is clear to everyone else reading this that all of you are manufacturing a point that you are trying to fit into the Ra Material. Your ideas have no source in the Ra Material.

I have nothing to prove. The majority of all anglophones are on my side.

[Spaced]

This is your thread man, we're critiquing your points which seem to be debating that the spirit complex is secondary to the mind complex. Your points are not very strong and rely heavily on inference and assumption so burden of proof is actually on you. Do it for the guests man, if you want them to have a clear picture of your perspective then prove your point.

The mind/body complex becomes aware of the spirit complex upon achieving third density graduation, this does not mean that the spirit complex did not exist. As Ra says themselves the addition of the spirit complex wasn't a real event, but an apparent event considering that the spirit complex was in existence since the beginning of space/time (you really butchered that quote in the title lmao, talk about misleading). This is similar to how the awareness of the possibility of mind/body/spirit complexes preceded their implementation by early Logoi.

Ra even states in the quote in your original post that a first density entity could be said to possess either a body complex or a mind complex, and that it doesn't make a difference which you chose to call it by. The reason why it doesn't make a difference (and here's a little inference but it's a good one I think, though I'm sure you won't agree) is that the only quality necessary for first density is awareness of being, which is possessed both by body and mind.

I do have one question for you: where do thoughts come from, do they just pop out of the matrix of the mind fully formed?

[Adonai One]

Thoughts are attachments formed by consciousness coming aware of unconsciousness, a thought being aware of what it is not aware of; A red object being aware of it not being blue. In all-knowingness, all thoughts exist in potentiation with all being thought. I believe this can be founded through much archetypal introspection.

Spaced, you fail to define what you believe the spirit complex to be and how it is not just consciousness becoming more conscious under will, consciousness being the mind.

In the end, it is all just a duality of consciousness and unconsciousness, with all inevitably being just consciousness.

Thoughts inherently exist in The Matrix. The Matrix is all thought.

As Ra said, it all comes from one thought.

1.0: “All things, all of life, all of the creation is part of one original thought.”

---

This is your thread man, we're critiquing your points which seem to be debating that the spirit complex is secondary to the mind complex.

Nobody has proven the contrary. Nobody can claim this is not the case based on the Ra Material; Assuming you mean secondary as in being second in-development.

[anagogy]

Ra: The function of the spirit is to integrate the upreaching yearning of the mind/body energy with the downpouring and streaming of infinite intelligence.

Notice that the spirit is the integrator, between the "mind/body" and "infinite intelligence".

Notice that Ra defines infinite intelligence apart from mind/body in this sentence. They are very *obviously* different items in that quote.

In every circumstance in the Ra material the mind is described as reaching upwards toward spirit.

Ra: This spirit complex is the channel whereby the inpourings from all of the various universal, planetary, and personal inpourings may be funneled into the roots of consciousness and whereby consciousness may be funneled to the gateway of intelligent infinity through the balanced intelligent energy of body and mind.

Again, mind and body are very obviously defined apart from intelligent infinity.

Personal inference: Raw spirit is raw consciousness, or, intelligent infinity. Mind is a kinetic focusing of that intelligent infinity. Body is a focusing of mind (i.e. "mind is the builder of the body"). Spirit is a broader, or more encompassing manifestation of consciousness than "mind consciousness". Mind is more specific than spirit. Body is more specific than mind.

Now having said that. I don't care one bit whether you call intelligent infinity "spirit" or not. You can call it "purple Logos pixie dust" for all I care.

But one thing is abundantly clear in the Ra material, the spirit is a shuttle, or gateway to whatever you want to call intelligent infinity. And for mind to contact intelligent infinity, it has to use this gateway, which lies between it, and infinity. It seems perfectly logical, and extremely obvious, that spirit is in closer contact with intelligent infinity than body, or mind (seeing as it has to use it has a pathway to even commune with it). And you know, also, because its *PRIME FUNCTION* is the integration of mind/body with intelligent infinity.

It is, literally, in pastry terms....the warm gooey delicious filling between mind/body and infinite intelligence.

Ra: The third area is the spiritual complex which embodies the fields of force and consciousness which are the least distorted of your mind/body/spirit complex. The exploration and balancing of the spirit complex is indeed the longest and most subtle part of your learn/teaching. We have considered the mind as a tree. The mind controls the body. With the mind single-pointed, balanced, and aware, the body comfortable in whatever biases and distortions make it appropriately balanced for that instrument, the instrument is then ready to proceed with the great work.

That is the work of wind and fire. The spiritual body energy field is a pathway, or channel. When body and mind are receptive and open, then the spirit can become a functioning shuttle or communicator from the entity’s individual energy of will upwards, and from the streamings of the creative fire and wind downwards.

Well, there you have it, Ra says it right there, plain as day.

The spirit complex is the *least* distorted of the three energy foci of mind/body/spirit.

[Adonai One]

No, they do not.

...spiritual complex which embodies the fields of force and consciousness which are the least distorted...

How does consciousness have any distinction from the mind? Seriously?

[anagogy]

...spiritual complex which embodies the fields of force and consciousness which are the least distorted...

How does consciousness have any distinction from the mind? Seriously?

Spirit, mind, and body are all consciousness Adonai.

They are just different focuses of consciousness. They serve different functions.

How would it be any different? Seriously?

Also, you didn't address any points I brought up, specifically, all the Ra quotes clearly stating spirit is, in fact, the least distorted set of fields of the m/b/s complex.

[Adonai One]

I tend to agree, it's all consciousness and mind focused into different significators. In other words, in the end, it's all mind and consciousness focused into different creations and thoughts, the body and spirit being two different types of thought of the mind.

---

Ra never said that the spirit is one of the least distorted fields but rather it embodies the least distorted fields of force and consciousness. I address your point well.

...spiritual complex which embodies the fields of force and consciousness which are the least distorted...

[anagogy]

I tend to agree, it's all consciousness and mind focused into different significators. In other words, in the end, it's all mind and consciousness focused into different creations and thoughts, the body and spirit being two different types of thought of the mind.

Except that you are completely rewording it again, to serve your own ends.

Consciousness and mind are not synonymous.

Mind is a specific kind of focusing of consciousness.

Spirit is a specific kind of focusing of consciousness.

Body is a specific kind of focusing of consciousness.

Ra never said that the spirit is one of the least distorted fields but rather it embodies the least distorted fields of force and consciousness. I address your point well.

They said that because spirit is consciousness, and the particular form of consciousness that it is (that it embodies) is the least distorted focusing of consciousness.

You are twisting it to just argue at this point. It has become increasingly clear you are not looking to find the truth of the matter. I think I'm probably gonna check out of trying to debate this with you anymore. I'm not remotely convinced anymore that you are looking to actually understand anything. You are looking to argue, and you'll believe whatever you want, regardless of what the material says, or does not say.

Best of luck in your journey.

[Adonai One]

Consciousness and mind are not synonymous.

Mind is a specific kind of focusing of consciousness.

Spirit is a specific kind of focusing of consciousness.

Body is a specific kind of focusing of consciousness.

Unproven, unstated in The Ra Material. There is no rational reason for anyone to believe this.

[Unbound]

Perhaps kind of tangential but I was reading this quote:

(80.20) This material world is transformed by the spirit into that which is infinite and eternal. The infinity of the spirit is an even greater realization than the infinity of consciousness, for consciousness which has been disciplined by will and faith is that consciousness which may contact intelligent infinity directly.

This seems to suggest that consciousness through development is self-transcending from finite to infinite? Also, if consciousness and mind are the end-all-be-all of all things, why would the infinity of spirit be a greater realization than just the infinity of consciousness?

[Parsons]

You do realize you are simply preaching your own dogma and calling it the ultimate truth; saying all other interpretations are false? You are even not so subtly sending messages to nonmembers that your dogma is the only one that has any logic.

I can't believe you don't see that attitude goes against the spirit of the Ra material and other work by L/L. Everyone must digest the material for themselves to gain any useful wisdom. You can't write up a bunch of dogma, expect someone to swallow it whole, and expect it to help with anyone's spiritual evolution.

You do realize this is how religions start and end up getting so twisted? Thank god we live in an age where we can get an exact recording of the original and don't have to rely on dogma.

I am sorry I get so worked up about this. I know it's because I see so much of myself you, even if its mostly potential in me. You are an extremely useful mirror and I have learned a great deal of information about myself as a result.

[Unbound]

Also, I can't agree with you equating Intelligent Infinity with the concept of Mind. Everywhere I read in the Ra Material it talks about contacting Intelligent Infinity, and indeed it says doing so through the trunks and roots of mind using the spirit as a shuttle, but it still distinguishes Intelligent Infinity from the mind itself and seems, to me, to refer to Intelligent Infinity as a noun, a thing in itself.

However, I can agree that the first emergence from Intelligent Infinity was awareness, thus the Infinite Mind of Free Will.

---

Although, I am starting to think it goes like this:

Intelligent Infinity > Intelligent Energy/Logos/Love/Consciousness/Awareness > Mind/Body/Spirit > Mind/Body/Spirit Complex

I guess I see it that Love as the Original Thought is the focus of the Infinite Mind.

---

Mind is that which calls and recalls content from Infinite Intelligence, Body reflects the opposites/polarities of mind, and Spirit is the communicator or the medium through which the mind calls to Intelligent Infinity.

[Unbound]

This quote kind of changes things a bit in my mind though:

(27.5) Questioner: It is not necessary to divide it. The definition of intelligent infinity as one part is sufficient. Could you please now define intelligent infinity?

Ra: I am Ra. This is exponentially simpler and less confusing. There is unity. This unity is all that there is. This unity has a potential and kinetic. The potential is intelligent infinity. Tapping this potential will yield work. This work has been called by us, intelligent energy.

Here Intelligent Infinity and Intelligent Energy are apparently paralleled and instead unity is the ultimate singular noun. I suppose unity is the only thing in itself and everything else is in some way a distortion of that, so calling unity ANY one thing, whether that be mind, intelligent infinity, love, or anything else, is still incorrect, as unity can only be defined by its singleness.

---

(27.12) Questioner: I would like for you to define love in the sense— in its sense as the second distortion.

Ra: I am Ra. This must be defined against the background of intelligent infinity or unity or the One Creator with the primal distortion of free will. The term Love then may be seen as the focus, the choice of attack, the type of energy of an extremely, shall we say, high order which causes intelligent energy to be formed from the potential of intelligent infinity in just such and such a way. This then may be seen to be an object rather than an activity by some of your peoples, and the principle of this extremely strong energy focus being worshiped as the Creator instead of unity or oneness from which all Loves emanate.

Although this quote first parallels intelligent infinity, unity and the One Creator, specifically with free will and then Love is the focus. So can we presume love to be the One Thought? If it is the One Thought held in an Infinite Mind, does that suppose that it is the perfect expression of the activity of intelligence? However, if we define Mind as the base of all reality, doesn't that thus limit the concept of intelligence to something which is finite and must need be based on a rational basis when in fact infinity must also account for completely irrational senses of experience, completely unfathomable and untouchable to those not in them. What exactly are we ascribing to be the fundamental property of infinity? Is it mind? Why equate infinity with mind? That is highly presumptuous.

---

Also, I would probably now put free will as a thing in itself prior to the logos, I guess presuming that free will as the first distortion is awareness and the logos/love is the focusing of that awareness.

/thinkingoutloudintext

[Adonai One]

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes.

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes.

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes.

I've always considered Awareness equal to Love, as according to my research in the sheet in my signature.

---

Perhaps kind of tangential but I was reading this quote:

(80.20) This material world is transformed by the spirit into that which is infinite and eternal. The infinity of the spirit is an even greater realization than the infinity of consciousness, for consciousness which has been disciplined by will and faith is that consciousness which may contact intelligent infinity directly.

This seems to suggest that consciousness through development is self-transcending from finite to infinite? Also, if consciousness and mind are the end-all-be-all of all things, why would the infinity of spirit be a greater realization than just the infinity of consciousness?

I've spoken on this quote before in this thread: This quote only says when you take consciousness (mind) and discipline it into the infinity of realizations of the spirit, you will have greater diversity in experiences rather than just realizing the conscious mind is infinite in its realizations of the present moment, that has no will to reach intelligent infinity to do work. It's a very nuanced quote that is very misapplied in this situation.

There is no metaphysical call here for the spirit being above the mind in the universe's origin. Not once does it say that spirit creates the mind or otherwise.

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes.

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes.

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes.

---

Additionally, I cannot speak on your series of correlations. I need citations from the material to discuss.

I can only say I believe:

Unity = Thought = Mind = Consciousness/Awareness = Love as according to how the distortions line up archetypally with the concept of The Choice going into The Matrix, The Great Way being The Matrix inevitably.

---

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes.

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes.

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes.

[Unbound]

Alright, fine, you win, the mind, the mind, the mind, the mind.

---

(I still don't agree, but I don't have the energy to put in to this discussion anymore lol)

[Parsons]

You are taking micro-quotes out of the context in which they were asked. Here is what Ra was describing:

79.20 ▶ Questioner: I would like to try and understand the archetypes of the mind of this Logos prior to the extension of the first distortion. In order to better understand that which we experience now I believe that this is a logical approach.

I think you are coming to wildly different conclusions about the nature of the Mind is you are losing sight of the forest through the trees. You are approaching this from an extremely subjective viewpoint where you have decided you are already "correct" (confirmation bias) before engaging in a conversation where you are supposedly trying to gain new ideas. Your mind seems to be completely closed. So this thread is just preaching your dogma and you have no interest in an actual discussion. This is evidenced by you repeating the same out-of-context micro-quote over and over again in super large print. This is equivalent to screaming the same phrase over and over again in a formal debate. Also you have ignored extremely good points that were made (such as Ra using different terminology for certain words such as 'Galaxy').

[anagogy]

Parsons, as absolutely spot on as your statement is, you are wasting your breath.

He is not interested in truth.

He's interested in inflating his sense of self worth, and making himself right, no matter what. Even if he's not.

Ego games.

[Adonai One]

What does all mean? What else can all mean?

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes.

Full context:

79.20: The Matrix of Mind is that from which all comes. It is unmoving yet is the activator in potentiation of all mind activity. The Potentiator of the Mind is that great resource which may be seen as the sea into which the consciousness dips ever deeper and more thoroughly in order to create, ideate, and become more self-conscious.

They are pretty specific: All. Archetypal mind or not, it seems pretty clear: All. All comes from the Matrix of the Mind.

Edit:

And it was from the previous octave as well and, in such, in all probability applies to the entire octave.

78.10: At the beginning of this creation or, as you may call it, octave there were those things known which were the harvest of the preceding octave. About the preceding creation we know as little as we do of the octave to come. However, we are aware of those pieces of gathered concept which were the tools which the Creator had in the knowing of the self.

These tools were of two kinds. Firstly, there was an awareness of the efficiency for experience of mind, body, and spirit. Secondly, there was an awareness of the most efficacious nature or, if you will, significator of mind, body, and spirit. Thirdly, there was the awareness of two aspects of mind, of body, and of spirit that the significator could use to balance all catalyst. You may call these two the matrix and the potentiator.