2006.01.01 'Failure' of the plan that this logos chose

[unity100]

Lets seriously try to solve this. It's just words, I don't mind changing words if it helps understanding. What we need is a different word... Lets say "Unity mind" when we speak about the mind concept that Unity uses.

Let me try to summarize your concept of "mind"...

Mind is what the western world calls the mind, but it is broader than that. It also includes the masculine concepts you mention but not the feminine. Would you say mind is many information processing systems?

mind is much more than that. mind also the shape giver, the organizer. the mover.

you are still stuck on the 'information processor' concept that is the approach of the current planetary societal mind to the concept of mind.

For example, you would call instinct mind? You would call the subconscious mind? But you would not call intuition mind right? That's a more feminine energy right there.

instinct, is a deep knowing that stems more from subconscious. its probably not a singlehanded, isolated concept. but, it is more a mix of two. intuition is also the same. inspiration, now, is a subconscious act.

I mentioned instinct, intellect, intuition emotion and sensation. Would you please categorize those as "unity mind" or not "unity mind". If your definition of the word mind is vastly different than mine we can talk for days and get no where. And it's true I came from an occult background. So it's not weird to expect some differences in vocabulary.

Let me remind you once more though because it's important to me that I NEVER EVER said that you should NOT use a system. I simply stated that various of our systems cannot handle certain tasks. If you were to use ONLY that system. As it seemed you were doing. Then you'll get no where... Just like the bird trying to climb a tree. It's just not going to work for him. He also does not need to unless he's an ostrich or something and even then failure is imminent.

you are getting fixated on the perception of mind that this current planetary society has about mind. it is just a subset of mind, and its processes and procedures are just subsets of the mind's grand scheme.

So I never suggested only using 25% of capacity as per the example you used. I suggested the opposite, going from 25%, (A lot less actually if you use my limiting definition of mental reasoning) to 100% by using everything you've got... My goal just like yours is to optimize my function. So if it seems I choose to use less of my faculties please assume something was distorted in translation.

mind/body/spirit. as far as what Ra says and quo later explained in regard to usage of slashes in between them, mind and body are parts of the entity as important as the spirit.

that makes mind + body = 50%, spirit = 50% with a blunt calculation.

that makes mind, up to 25% basis of the very discrete existence (existing as entities, the entire reality, creation) itself.

[Cyclops]

I would agree that there is the mind which is beyond this illusion and the physical as described in the Ra material and the library sessions. It is said however that the intellect which uses logic, reason and attempts to be rational is not this enduring mind and is often confused for it.

The two minds of consciousness and intellect.
Q'uo Sunday Meditation, May 20, 2007

Yet there is much more than your mind to the third density, incarnate human being that you are. Indeed, you have two minds. You have the mind with which your body was born and the mind which is consciousness. This is a key point when working with the idea of seeking the Creator, because one needs both minds. One does not need to discard the intellect, but rather to understand its place and to understand that each of you as seekers is not your intellect but rather is the charioteer that decides where the steeds of your intellect shall go and how fast you shall take the road.

We only ask that you realize that you need to be in the driver’s seat. You often need to hold your intellect under very tight reign, for it will tend to plunge around corners of new thoughts and directly into the ditch, fueled by old mind, old memory, and old assumptions. The intellect is resistant to change. When one becomes a spiritual seeker, one has chosen to accelerate the pace of change and transformation within the life experience. So, although the intellect can move the spiritual seeker into a situation of becoming more aware of who he is and why he is here, it is generally not the intellect or the capacities of the intellect that are able to keep the seeker in balance and on track as the tides and waves of change and transformation sweep over the seeker who is opening like a flower. Consciousness is the other mind which you have as a mind/body/spirit complex, as the one known as Ra calls a person on this Earth. Unlike the mind which is particularly and solely your own, you share the faculty of consciousness with all beings. We are not simply saying that you share consciousness with all other human beings.

Mind of the heart or consciousness versus the mind of the body which is the intellect. They speak here how there are people who have difficulty moving into the mind of the heart and cling to the logical intellect.
Q'uo Saturday Meditation, December 27, 2008

You are souls within incarnation and consequently you have the mind with which you were born, the intellect, the logical, calculating decision-making instrument that is excellent and useful. You also have consciousness. You may think of consciousness as the mind of the heart. We shall, therefore, discuss these two faculties of your mind, the mind that is the intellect and the mind of the heart, in a way that distinguishes what kind of learning is possible for each.

Many people believe that they are working with their hearts. However, it is not always the case that the heart will open and begin to speak. There is a dynamic between intellect and heart. Some souls within incarnation have a good deal of difficulty relinquishing the insistence upon making sense in logical terms at all times. The heart’s mind, however, is consciousness. There is only one consciousness and all entities hold that consciousness in common. What varies is each individual’s ability to enter into consciousness and to allow consciousness to replace the intellect.

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Excerpt on the intellectual mind.
Q'uo Saturday Meditation, December 27, 2008

You’ll notice that we have not discussed spiritual learning in talking of the intellect. It is possible for a ran intellectual mind to play with the ideas that are involved in spiritual evolution. However, it is not possible for the intellect to take hold of those ideas and live them, because the advantages of doing so are obvious to the intellect, but the ability to live the good ideas is lacking within the intellect.

Excerpt on the clever intellect and it's nature of being fearful, doubting and perceiving many imperfections everywhere as well as trying to solve mystery and paradox, but in the other view all is well and that there is a perfect plan.
Q'uo Saturday Meditation, December 27, 2008

Where does faith come from, my friends? It is illogical to believe that all is well when it is quite obvious to the intellect that there are imperfections everywhere. Yet, no matter how clever the intellect is, its fruits tend to incline toward cynicism and doubt, negativity and fear, whereas the qualities of consciousness are the qualities of the one infinite

Creator, whose essence and being is unconditional love. Dwelling in consciousness, the entire experience of being a self in incarnation is transformed. The “I” of the intellect, with its choices and its chances and its cleverness, becomes the “I” of the heart, the “I” of Christ Consciousness, or the consciousness of love. And part of that very consciousness is faith.

Move, therefore, my friends into the precincts of faith when you are faced with the need to learn a spiritually oriented lesson, for usually such lessons come to you in darkness and in difficulty. There is the temptation at those times to move back into the relative safety of the intellect, where there is no paradox or mystery, but only a linear progression of things learned and things understood. But if there is the wish to progress spiritually, cling to the consciousness that offers you the faculty of faith. For if you know that all is well, and that the divine plan for your incarnation is working perfectly, you can then take even the harshest circumstance and ask it for the gifts that it brings.

Perfection of the present moment and all things and why the logical intellect needs balance and release sometimes.
Q'uo Saturday Meditation September 12, 2009

And that is why we say that things are perfect at all times, although they may be uncomfortable. Do not cringe away from your suffering, but rather cradle yourself as you endure through the natural process of the alchemy of the transforming energy, of the love in your open heart.

Before we leave this subject we would note that it is very helpful in work of this kind to devote some of your precious time to sitting in silence or to entering the silence in some way. It is easy for the conscious mind to think all manner of things, some of them contradictory. It is easy to become confused as to what you wish to do. It is easy to become confused even as to who you really are.

When you enter the silence, you enter the realm of the one infinite Creator. You enter eternity and infinity. And, most of all, you enter the present moment which intersects at all times with the metaphysical universe. You are a heartbeat away at all times from the gateway of intelligent infinity. You simply need to release the self from the strictures of the intellect and logic and enter the silence. This is a helpful adjunct to the practice of attempting to serve others and we would encourage it.

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On illusion and the third density school of souls and how there is the perfect plan.
Q'uo Sunday Meditation, December 3, 2000

There is no such thing as sequence. Space is an illusion. The bones, the flesh, and the mass of this particular incarnation are of an illusory nature that is very deep. Nothing that seems to be occurring upon the physical level has that kind of deep meaning that engenders fear, guilt, anger, remorse and all the other emotions that this incarnation creates as an illusion for the learning of the student. In other words, each seeker has put itself in a school of illusion in which things happen that are very strenuous, difficult and uncomfortable in many ways. And, yet, in the execution of these processes of suffering there is no animus, judgment or anger upon the part of the one infinite Creator.

Faith is the willingness to abide in the essence of self, in the knowledge that the plan is good, and in the willingness to do the best that one can to interpret and respond to the situation as it unfolds. The actual decisions made are not that important. The intentions and the reasons involved for those decisions are important.

faith is the faith that all is well. It is not a belief; it is not a dogma; it is not complex; it does not have an object. Faith is an attitude of confidence that there is a plan, that the plan is working out perfectly, and that any difficulties that we are having with the plan are part of the plan. Therefore, no matter what the suffering, all is well and all will be well. The only responsibility of the faithful entity, then, is to maintain that faith and to deal with the suffering in a way that has as much as possible of humor, patience and perspective. For it is hoped that when it is seen that there is a plan, that this may release the spirit to dance within that plan, to look for ways to create style in responding to the nuances of the plan and finding ways to inject humor and a lightness of being into those reactions to the plan.

Q'uo Sunday Meditation, December 3, 2000

We may see the plan as outfigured in that Holy of Holies within the heart which holds the truth of being. In that Holy of Holies the Creator dwells in Its full original vibration. And the seeker, too, is there in its own heart, if it can remember to go there. With all of the buzzing noises of brain and intellect and thought, it is almost impossible to remember to go to the heart. It is only when there is a decision made to release the intellectual thought in the workings of the decision-making mind and to move into faith, trust and hope that the self can become silent, the mind can stop its chatter, and the self can use the key of silence to enter that tabernacle that is the heart.

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Here Hatonn speaks about about the negative nature of grasping for the seeker.
Hatonn May 1, 1983

We shall examine the assumptions which each seeker makes concerning the quality of his or her communication with other beings. Perhaps the primary assumption, my friends, is that you must have ambition to seek and to grasp that which it is you wish to know and, therefore, that which you wish to communicate. You wish to take upon yourself the essence and the meaning of love. Although it is written in your holy work, the Bible, “Seek and ye shall find; ask and you shall be answered; knock and it shall be opened;” there is a point at which the seeking with the conscious self as ambitious seeker ceases to make metaphysical sense and, indeed, becomes counterproductive to the serious student. Therefore, you seem to be upon the horns of a dilemma. You must seek in order to be a seeker; you must have ambition; you must grasp and reach ever further than you will find. And yet in order to fully be a seeker, there is that point at which such grasping and seeking is a negative or unhelpful method of being and of transmitting your being through communication to others. The cause of this is the very nature of taking.

[Turtle]

@ Cyclops' quotes.

I particularly love the definitions of the 2 minds...the mind of intellect and the mind of the heart. It not only makes sense to me logically, but also makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Godspeed!

[Ali Quadir]

mind is much more than that. mind also the shape giver, the organizer. the mover.

In your definition of mind. But that's okay I'm trying to understand your definition. The shape giver/organizer I would call a mixture of lightbody and astral body. The mover as root cause for all movements is simply the soul. Even physical moves originate there. Not specifically as the impulse designed to move the muscle. But as the cause of the intent.

you are still stuck on the 'information processor' concept that is the approach of the current planetary societal mind to the concept of mind.

No I am not and no it is not. I'm stuck much more on a systems model. Where various systems evolved to answer specific challenges building from the same building block materials. I'm getting the idea that your version of mind is what Ra calls intelligence, not the same as societal mind as you say. But also not the same as my version. I would call intuition an expression of that intelligence too but I would not call it mind.

Again it's just words. I'm trying to build a bridge. I try to wrap my head around what you're saying, you could try to do the same. If I deny something 3 times and you still come up with the same objection you're not exactly trying.

For example, you would call instinct mind? You would call the subconscious mind? But you would not call intuition mind right? That's a more feminine energy right there.

instinct, is a deep knowing that stems more from subconscious. its probably not a singlehanded, isolated concept. but, it is more a mix of two. intuition is also the same. inspiration, now, is a subconscious act.

Answer the question clearly please, is it mind? Also, what is the other one in "A mixture of two"? I want to get your terminology clear and defined so we can really talk about the same subject.

I mentioned instinct, intellect, intuition emotion and sensation. Would you please categorize those as "unity mind" or not "unity mind". If your definition of the word mind is vastly different than mine we can talk for days and get no where. And it's true I came from an occult background. So it's not weird to expect some differences in vocabulary.

Let me remind you once more though because it's important to me that I NEVER EVER said that you should NOT use a system. I simply stated that various of our systems cannot handle certain tasks. If you were to use ONLY that system. As it seemed you were doing. Then you'll get no where... Just like the bird trying to climb a tree. It's just not going to work for him. He also does not need to unless he's an ostrich or something and even then failure is imminent.

you are getting fixated on the perception of mind that this current planetary society has about mind. it is just a subset of mind, and its processes and procedures are just subsets of the mind's grand scheme.

Again.. No I am not... As long as you think so you're clueless about my perception of mind.

So I never suggested only using 25% of capacity as per the example you used. I suggested the opposite, going from 25%, (A lot less actually if you use my limiting definition of mental reasoning) to 100% by using everything you've got... My goal just like yours is to optimize my function. So if it seems I choose to use less of my faculties please assume something was distorted in translation.

mind/body/spirit. as far as what Ra says and quo later explained in regard to usage of slashes in between them, mind and body are parts of the entity as important as the spirit.

that makes mind + body = 50%, spirit = 50% with a blunt calculation.

Very blunt indeed. 50% of what? Of the whole? Of the whole in what regard? Mass? Clearly not. Volume? Clearly not.

If you have two sides of a coin. What percentage of the coin is one side and what is the other? In your body, which is more important, your heart or your brain? It just doesn't work that way.

That makes mind, up to 25% basis of the very discrete existence (existing as entities, the entire reality, creation) itself.

I use the principle of what we can see as a difference in information processing ability between those who use only mind and those who use other mechanisms. My perception of mind, the thinking part of it is only a fragment of our capacity. Subconscious mind is already vastly bigger in it's processing capacity. Intuition blows conscious thought out of the water when it comes to pure information processing and answer finding ability.

And it's not even the strongest thing we've got...

Namaste

[unity100]

What quo is talking about is the brain as a societal mind. Remaining within its boundaries you may not be able to push forward.

However 'freeing' yourself from logic is irrelevant and something that should not be done. Logic is conditioning, causation, relevance. Without having logic, you cant reason or understand anything. Logic is in the foundation of the physical existence. All the existence in space/time is on ordered, organized, causally linked structures. It starts with yet unknown quants of particles and then moves to subatomic particles and then moves orderly to higher structures. It is built in such a way, a FORM containing, organized, shaped way, so that the entity, mind could understand and work on it. Since it is also a reflection of the existence, when you start to learn it, you start to learn existence itself.

In a way, space/time, physical existence, is the time/space, aether, given form by the mind.

Even Law of One Ra speaks about itself, is a logical proposition. Everything is infinite, hence everything is one. There is causation and correlation in it. All the lesser laws are also derived from this, they also have causation.

..........................

What you need to do is to free your mind, your intellect, your logic, your all 'kinds' of minds (if you choose to separate all of them like this) from any clutches, and then start wandering in thought.

...................

Ali qadir you need to read Ra material book 4.

[Aaron]

Unity, can you visualize the model of the universe that you just described? Picture it as a piece of fractal art. These ordered, carefully linked structures that start with the smallest of the small and move to the unimaginably large, together form something beautiful, chaotic, and flowing. All the logical units which make up the universe coalesce into one ever-changing, unbounded, and unknowable whole.

It's true that the universe and its structure can be known by investigating the structure of the mind. But the same can be said of living through intuition and faith, and therefore coming to know the universe through the resonance of love between yourself and it. In this second path, the mind is used as a tool on the path of living to unlock the spirit, not as a means to live by. Now I'm not saying that all life should be like this. But I believe that this is the point, the lesson, of the life experience in this time/space nexus.

In your interpretation of reality, you seem to skip over a crucial part of it. Love.

[Ali Quadir]

What quo is talking about is the brain as a societal mind. Remaining within its boundaries you may not be able to push forward.

However 'freeing' yourself from logic is irrelevant and something that should not be done. Logic is conditioning, causation, relevance. Without having logic, you cant reason or understand anything. Logic is in the foundation of the physical existence. All the existence in space/time is on ordered, organized, causally linked structures. It starts with yet unknown quants of particles and then moves to subatomic particles and then moves orderly to higher structures. It is built in such a way, a FORM containing, organized, shaped way, so that the entity, mind could understand and work on it. Since it is also a reflection of the existence, when you start to learn it, you start to learn existence itself.

It hopefully won't surprise you that I'm going to state AGAIN that I never suggested this. You just misunderstood. Logic is unable to grasp non causal truth, or even non linear truth.

In a way, space/time, physical existence, is the time/space, aether, given form by the mind.

That is correct. But mind is itself part of the aether.

Even Law of One Ra speaks about itself, is a logical proposition. Everything is infinite, hence everything is one. There is causation and correlation in it. All the lesser laws are also derived from this, they also have causation.

You know there are events that are not causative right? You know that there is chaos in which causation does not work but there is another kind of order in there. Demonstrating that the universe itself is not causative. Because the causative can never cause the non causative.

What you need to do is to free your mind, your intellect, your logic, your all 'kinds' of minds (if you choose to separate all of them like this) from any clutches, and then start wandering in thought.

Your emotions your instincts your intuiton and inspiration. Your genes, your cells your tribe your world. All of it.

Ali qadir you need to read Ra material book 4.

Again?

Take care

[Truth_and_Love]

Love is all there really is and we are all Love. We are all a product of love.


I love you Unity and care about you.

[unity100]

Unity, can you visualize the model of the universe that you just described? Picture it as a piece of fractal art. These ordered, carefully linked structures that start with the smallest of the small and move to the unimaginably large, together form something beautiful, chaotic, and flowing. All the logical units which make up the universe coalesce into one ever-changing, unbounded, and unknowable whole.

It's true that the universe and its structure can be known by investigating the structure of the mind. But the same can be said of living through intuition and faith, and therefore coming to know the universe through the resonance of love between yourself and it. In this second path, the mind is used as a tool on the path of living to unlock the spirit, not as a means to live by. Now I'm not saying that all life should be like this. But I believe that this is the point, the lesson, of the life experience in this time/space nexus.

In your interpretation of reality, you seem to skip over a crucial part of it. Love.

you are limited in your approach. ordering does not need to be fractal or in any other way. order, structuredness is not necessarily a physical structuring, a construct. it doesnt need to be of any shape.

it would totally depend on what the particular local sun of a particular universe chose. other universes may not even appear in the manner we know ours.

second, for both your and ali qadir's some comments :

time/space appears chaotic, effervescent, fluid, and random. it seems impossible to fathom. from this, you conclude the 'unfathomableness' of existence, rather mistakenly overemphasizing the subconscious, time/space part of existence.

time/space appears chaotic, unintelligible because there are innumerable factors acting in conjunction and creating causation chains to create a particular result. and these happen very fast. there being too many fast acting factors to fathom doesnt mean that there isnt causation in an event.

remember what Ra says about the seemingly random windows that open in the quarantine net of earth, that allow passage of any entity without needing to obey the rules - they suspect these are being governed by a higher principle in higher densities. (than 6th).

similarly, because greater existence, especially its time/space part seems chaotic, and subjective to you, it doesnt end up without causation.

.................

ali qadir, as long as you invent and use your own terms and classifications, it will be impossible to discuss on a common basis with you. that is why, yes, maybe book 4 would be better.

[Aaron]

you are limited in your approach. ordering does not need to be fractal or in any other way. order, structuredness is not necessarily a physical structuring, a construct. it doesnt need to be of any shape.

I'm narrowing my approach to the topic in order to connect with mutual understanding. Of course the visualization doesn't need to be fractal. It can appear in an infinity of ways. But if you do visualize the structure, no matter how it appears, you are realizing the chaotic beauty that arises from logical structures.

it would totally depend on what the particular local sun of a particular universe chose. other universes may not even appear in the manner we know ours.

While I'm confused as to where this statement came from in regards to the discussion, I completely agree.

time/space appears chaotic, effervescent, fluid, and random. it seems impossible to fathom. from this, you conclude the 'unfathomableness' of existence, rather mistakenly overemphasizing the subconscious, time/space part of existence.

I don't know about others, but for myself, I conclude the "unfathomableness of existence" from the realization I have when I ponder the depth, detail, and congruency of this life experience. There is no way that any human level intelligence can grasp the ins and outs of how we interact with eachother, how things come to be, and the way the planet builds upon itself. It's all a grand flowing system. It's not the point to try to know or conquer it in this lifetime. Then, I compare the entire earth experience with the scope of the universe. Earth and all human knowledge, even all the knowledge of Ra and others disappears like a wisp. Existence is unfathomable.

It isn't the chaos of time/space that I take to be unfathomable. In fact, I, as a consciousness, am becoming more comfortable and familiar with the time/space environment as it becomes more available to me. I'm not overemphasizing the scale or importance of time/space or the subconscious mind. I am however, becoming more aware of myself as a being or consciousness that floats balanced inbetween space and time. I see the value of both as equal.

[unity100]

what you cant fathom is already outside your perception. if you can think about it, if you can name it, you can work on it. there being infinity doesnt change this.

therefore it is pointless to make measurements, gauge anything as to what the capacity of anything can be.

all entities are continually and undisruptedly increasing their capacities at any given moment, including us and our mind.

what is needed, is to manifest and use it.

[Ali Quadir]

time/space appears chaotic, effervescent, fluid, and random. it seems impossible to fathom. from this, you conclude the 'unfathomableness' of existence, rather mistakenly overemphasizing the subconscious, time/space part of existence.

It is not unfathomable. It simply does not fit in the MIND.

time/space appears chaotic, unintelligible because there are innumerable factors acting in conjunction and creating causation chains to create a particular result. and these happen very fast. there being too many fast acting factors to fathom doesnt mean that there isnt causation in an event.

Sorry, but you're speaking against the verifiable facts here. There are events without causation. As is evidenced by math, physics, biology and as has been known by practically all spiritual traditions since forever. Including the middle eastern variants you love to hate.

If you say there is always a causal factor you are wrong. It is you who is stuck in the western world view. And not even a modern variant. The heyday of reductionism is passed.

What Ra means is that there is ORDER, not that there is causality. Is the other side of the coin a causal response? Does one side of a coin CAUSE the other side? Clearly not. They just belong together in the order of things. And this is very different from causality. You have a tendency to hijack Ra or other peoples words in misunderstandings. You do not second guess yourself...

Causality by definition requires the flow of time. Just look it up in the dictionary. This flow of time is most relevant in our context, but not in the context of the universe. Causality is not the infinite chain you suggest.

ali qadir, as long as you invent and use your own terms and classifications, it will be impossible to discuss on a common basis with you. that is why, yes, maybe book 4 would be better.

Sorry, for the umpteenth time, I've read it. I also never had problems with my vocabulary before. Which isn't invented by the way but is perfectly average in western spiritual circles. I have tried adopting your vocabulary for the argument, to build a bridge, but that just ends in: "Everything we call mind and everything else we ignore" I refuse to take the blame for your inability to communicate. It takes two, and I do not see you making the effort. You don't even take the effort to spell my name right. Which you have seen at least 20 times and you're not a dyslexic. Why should I feel responsible for your choices if you don't care?

If you don't change the tune you will not learn the song and there is a real chance that you will miss out on understanding what you're clearly putting a lot of effort in to understand.

I suggest you do make an effort to communicate with your fellow forum members. You could actually learn something. They are a lot smarter than you pretend them to be.

Just fair feedback bro... Take it or leave it. Whatever you do, the consequences are yours.

I suggest studying Plato, I suggest studying Wittgenstein, I suggest studying the Tao. I suggest you look into chaos theory, the butterfly effect, know the principles of holography and study some systems theory. Because your knowledge right now isn't even up to date with 21st century scientific advances. I suggest you stop treating book 4 like the source of all knowledge, you need more than that book... to get what is in it...

[Monica]

Sorry, but you're speaking against the verifiable facts here. There are events without causation. As is evidenced by math, physics, biology and as has been known by practically all spiritual traditions since forever.

Evidenced, perhaps, but not proven. It is impossible to prove a negative. Thus, I respectfully disagree that it is a 'verifiable fact' that there are events without causation. There are events without apparent causation, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't causation. We can't prove that there isn't causation. We just might not be able to discern or observe the causation.

I'm not saying that there is or isn't causation. Only that we can't conclusively say that events exist without causation, because that cannot be proven.

What Ra means is

Apparently, members on this forum have differing opinions as to what Ra meant.

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I'd like to remind everyone once again to please be respectful. All this discussion about mind is irrelevant if we aren't loving.

I really don't like locking threads, but that's what happens when they get discordant. C'mon, folks, we can all disagree respectfully and lovingly! :idea: Try getting out of your head and into your heart, and you just might find that we all start understanding one another better. 5th chakra communication will work better if grounded in the heart.

[unity100]

it is ironic that despite telling me that mind is incapable and whatnot, you tell me to study plato. despite talking against all the principles modern science and its material logic puts out, you tell me to use modern science. moreover, you are talking about proof about noncausality of time/space, the astral part of existence, which is something modern science, and even many philosophies do not accept. leave aside the fact that had any existing philosophies were complete and useful, they would have had produced a lot of change and enlightened masses throughout thousands of years and we wouldnt be living in this mess.

...........

my feedback to you is - you are way too clung to your existing philosophies or religions. i will stop discussing you on this topic in this thread.

[Richard]

it is ironic that despite telling me that mind is incapable and whatnot, you tell me to study plato. despite talking against all the principles modern science and its material logic puts out, you tell me to use modern science. moreover, you are talking about proof about noncausality of time/space, the astral part of existence, which is something modern science, and even many philosophies do not accept. leave aside the fact that had any existing philosophies were complete and useful, they would have had produced a lot of change and enlightened masses throughout thousands of years and we wouldnt be living in this mess.

...........

my feedback to you is - you are way too clung to your existing philosophies or religions. i will stop discussing you on this topic in this thread.

This has never really been a discussion. A discussion is the stated views of each participant and an attempt to bridge concepts to better understand each other. This has actually been more of a debate than a discussion..there is a difference. As far as I can see, Unity..you make no attempt to understand anyone's views.

Ali (and others) have made numerous attempts to draw you into a real discussion so that we might all begin to understand each other. Each time, you squashed his (and everyone else, for that matter) worldview in favor of your own. Never once conceding a single point or even trying to meet someone on that bridge.

If we can't even form a conceptual unity here...how do we eventually embrace true unity?

Richard

[unity100]

There has been a discussion in between me and all others, except you and ali qadir. Due to philosophical difference, there is no way that i can bridge the concepts in between you two and me, because doing so requires me to see matters as you see. Because i was once from the religion, and the mindset Ali qadir is, - from what i have seen from his posts in numerous threads -, as far as i remember the format, there will never be any kind of understanding unless i concede 'god's greatness', unquestionability, and unfathomability. These are the traits of a religion once i was a member of, and have studied deeply for two years, and also all the sufist and other middle eastern philosophies following it. There is no way to concile with these philosophies.

With you, as far as i see, the situation is slightly different, but on a same parallel. You want me to 'humble' myself, and accept your viewpoint. You wont rest easy as long as i dont 'humble' myself, or my viewpoint. That is not a discussion. Moreover, you are projecting your views on me in not only this, but on other threads, despite it is not shared by 'others' as you so vulgarly generalize. Irrelevantly too, which creates a risk of people who havent discussed with me knowing me as 'arrogant', 'raining on others' parade' and whatnot. Which is also an added problem to the bridges in between you and me. I have numerous conclusions about you, and ali qadir, some of which i can easily identify from my own past experience from being in the same shoes, yet, i havent reflected any of these unnecessarily and irrelevantly.

And no, it cant happen. 'Humbling' oneself means accepting various incapabilities, which in turn brings a lessening in worth/worthlessness balance, which then in turn impedes numerous things, ranging from mental, spiritual capabilities, connections to self-esteem. These are all needed after a certain point, in evolution, and cannot be risked. However this is a VERY long discussion, in which discussion of related concepts would be required, and i dont think it will be possible to discuss these with you at any given point.

This thread, proposing a possibility of the failure of some plan that is perceived to be of the so great creator that certain philosophies praise and gratify, is very offensive to that kind of philosophy. Hence, the discussion with two of you deteriorated towards 'my capacities' and 'my headstrongness', my inexistent 'humbleness', ie - concepts based on personality, rather than the general concepts, for that very reason. For, humbling or discrediting of me, will be perceived by the nullification of that offensive proposal that 'god can fail'. Which is a common pattern when you discuss anything so open minded with such philosophies. It is not the first time for anyone voicing such opinions, it wont be the first time. It will repeat. Due to the nature of this forum, its participants and their education level, so far the reaction from people who hold such philosophies had been quite civil. It is quite aggressive and rude in general, in other places.
......................

as i said, i wont be discussing this with you two, for, i know that there can be no agreement. we cant even disagree civilly, for i must concede that god is great, and cant be fathomed and cant possibly fail, before you two can rest easy. therefore, i wont be replying to you in this thread anymore. Alternatively, from my experience with other people of similar philosophies, locking of the thread would also put your minds at ease, since the 'offense' will not continue anymore, however, it would also be to the detriment and dislike of me, and similarly open minded people.

[Ali Quadir]

Grin, uncle ali has just been promoted to a muslim fundamentalist everyone.
Bomb shaped muffins and biscuits will be served in the lobby shortly...

I'm not going to argue with you Unity, if you had the capacity for understanding you would have gotten it a long time ago... I'm honestly now doubting between whether you're just trolling or really can't help yourself. But what you just did is a great and unfair ad homini attack on me as a person. And you even stoop low enough to try to capitalize on anti Islamic sentiments to get there.

I never asked you to humble yourself or submit to anything. Not only did you not come from my background, you don't even know my background. You haven't got a clue where I've been and what I've seen. Yet you're confident enough to launch ad homini's at me and at least richard on a regular basis.

I'm considering putting you on the ignore list. First time I ever felt the need to use that feature. It's a sad day.

@Monica: You say there is no evidence that there are non causal relations in this universe. But synchronicity is an example of a non causal connection. And I know you know synchronicity.

[Monica]

@Monica: You say there is no evidence that there are non causal relations in this universe. But synchronicity is an example of a non causal connection. And I know you know synchronicity.

Actually, I didn't say there wasn't evidence. I said it couldn't be proven, since negatives can't be proven. To say that there "isn't" something is to attempt to prove a negative.

I do indeed know synchronicity! But I don't consider it to be a non-causal connection. What appears to be a non-causal connection is, in my view, caused by connections undetected, in all cases except those occasional random occurrences mentioned by Ra. And even then, I would consider the cause to be the mechanism for random events being generated that is built into the system, just as a programmer programs a random number generator into a computer program.

---

there is no way that i can bridge the concepts in between you two and me,

That may be true. However, perhaps hearts can bridge where intellects cannot.

because doing so requires me to see matters as you see.

It is my personal opinion that the most potent tool for peace is the ability to see a situation from the point of view of an other-self, while simultaneously disagreeing.

This may seem paradoxical, since most disagreement is caused by an inability to understand another point of view. But from the point of view of the whole, all other points of view are valid. To 'see' another point of view, and understand and even respect it, while in the midst of vehement disagreement, is powerful indeed.

Because i was once from the religion, and the mindset Ali qadir is,

For now, I will honor your request to keep this thread open, but my stipulation is that EVERYONE refrain from labeling another self's mindset or opinion. (I'm not speaking to just unity here, but to everyone, since others have done this too.) The first step to restoring harmony on this thread is for EVERYONE to quit speaking on behalf of another, or labeling another.

from what i have seen from his posts in numerous threads -, as far as i remember the format, there will never be any kind of understanding unless i concede 'god's greatness', unquestionability, and unfathomability. These are the traits of a religion once i was a member of, and have studied deeply for two years, and also all the sufist and other middle eastern philosophies following it. There is no way to concile with these philosophies.

There can be understanding without agreement.

I personally am interested in your views. When you say "God" or "god" is there a distinction? Are you referring to the One Infinite Creator or to the Logos that created our particular little speck in the UniVerse?

With you, as far as i see, the situation is slightly different, but on a same parallel. You want me to 'humble' myself, and accept your viewpoint. You wont rest easy as long as i dont 'humble' myself, or my viewpoint.

I think this entire thread could use a big dose of humility. Humility just means we acknowledge that ours is one of many possible viewpoints, and not necessarily the single 'right' answer. It also leaves room to learn something from someone else. It does not necessarily mean accepting an opinion we disagree with, or compromising our own opinions.

'Humbling' oneself means accepting various incapabilities, which in turn brings a lessening in worth/worthlessness balance, which then in turn impedes numerous things, ranging from mental, spiritual capabilities, connections to self-esteem.

Just trying to understand...Are you saying that humbleness is never appropriate? Or do you think it is appropriate in some cases?

This thread, proposing a possibility of the failure of some plan that is perceived to be of the so great creator

Admittedly, I have not read all of the posts in this thread. But my understanding was that the discussion was about a perceived failure of the plan designed by this Logos, not the One Infinite Creator. Please forgive me if I have missed some pertinent posts in which the discussion turned to a perceived failure of the One Infinite Creator.

that certain philosophies praise and gratify, is very offensive to that kind of philosophy. Hence, the discussion with two of you deteriorated towards 'my capacities' and 'my headstrongness', my inexistent 'humbleness', ie - concepts based on personality, rather than the general concepts, for that very reason. For, humbling or discrediting of me, will be perceived by the nullification of that offensive proposal that 'god can fail'.

You raise a valid point. It is certainly possible that some members, maybe even all who have been involved in this thread, have had their buttons pushed. I saw that happen recently on another thread (with different participants). I agree with you that this is a very volatile topic, and volatile topics/radical ideas tend to push buttons. This is a very subconscious thing.

so far the reaction from people who hold such philosophies had been quite civil. It is quite aggressive and rude in general, in other places.

I'm sorry that you perceived rudeness and aggression on our forum. That's disconcerting. We try to maintain a loving and respectful tone here.

as i said, i wont be discussing this with you two, for, i know that there can be no agreement. we cant even disagree civilly, for i must concede that god is great, and cant be fathomed and cant possibly fail, before you two can rest easy. therefore, i wont be replying to you in this thread anymore. Alternatively, from my experience with other people of similar philosophies, locking of the thread would also put your minds at ease, since the 'offense' will not continue anymore, however, it would also be to the detriment and dislike of me, and similarly open minded people.

There seems to be a consensus among the members who are in a discordant pattern, that they can't continue the discussion with certain others who disagree. If that's what needs to happen in order to restore harmony, then so be it.

At the risk of sounding condescending, I am reminded of what parents often tell their children: If you can't say something nice, then say nothing at all.

I will spell it out:

To Everyone: Please continue to participate in this discussion ONLY if you can do so respectfully. This means NO direct judgments or labeling towards another member. Disagree with the idea all you want, but refrain from labeling, attacking, or belittling the person.

As defined in our guideline #1:

1) Respect, respect, respect. Participants are asked to keep the thought in the forefront of their minds at all times that each on this forum IS the Creator. Please keep communication respectfully at all times and in all ways. The participant may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea. Please remember that we are all here to expand our own knowledge and deepen our own understanding; we are not here to tear each other down.

As I mentioned, I'd rather not lock this thread. The topic is certainly intriguing.

For now, this thread is under review by the other moderators and myself. Our prime directive here at Bring4th is respect, respect, respect, as stated in our #1 guideline.

Further discord won't be tolerated.

[unity100]

That may be true. However, perhaps hearts can bridge where intellects cannot.

this is not a matter of heart, a matter of thoughts and philosophies of 4d. this is a matter of 5 to 6 d and beyond, it involves understanding of disciplines and various philosophies. therefore, it cannot be bridged.

There can be understanding without agreement.

I personally am interested in your views. When you say "God" or "god" is there a distinction? Are you referring to the One Infinite Creator or to the Logos that created our particular little speck in the UniVerse?

im referring to intelligent infinity. the one derivative of infinity, which is infinity gaining intelligence and becoming intelligent infinity. it is 'god' as 'god' can be.

the logos that created our universe is, in this context, is 'god' knows how many logoses under this. it is possible that there can be a central logos that creates universes, and this particular universal logos of our universe has manifested out from it.

and then it is probable that that logos may be manifestation of another logos, and so forth. we do not know how the structuring is, outside our universe yet.

but, as far as what we know, we seem to be in a particular octave as this universe.

I think this entire thread could use a big dose of humility. Humility just means we acknowledge that ours is one of many possible viewpoints, and not necessarily the single 'right' answer. It also leaves room to learn something from someone else. It does not necessarily mean accepting an opinion we disagree with, or compromising our own opinions.

that is different and irrelevant though. respecting someone else's opinion and having to concede the thing someone else wants you to concede, despite being fundamentally in contrast with your own views and understanding, are two different things.

Just trying to understand...Are you saying that humbleness is never appropriate? Or do you think it is appropriate in some cases?

past 6, there should be no 'humbleness'. no lack of self esteem, no feelings of incapacity, no similar thing.

for, the 6th ray, the indigo ray, is the ray that is tied to these things. self-value, self-esteem, self-worth are carried on that ray, as well as many other properties, according to what we see from Ra's information. actually, there are numerous other sources also in line with this information, however.

after 6th, there is no 'can i' or 'can i not', you just 'do' things. you may not be able to move a mountain by thought, however, there should be no relevance of this to your self-worth, and your self worth should not be lost when thinking or facing anything, because that means loss of 6th ray activity, henceforth, the very important connection to infinity.

after 6h, you don the 'we' understanding and concept. there is no 'outside' god, ie, there is no 'god', or 'intelligent infinity'. you think and act as 'we', an equal member of an infinite sea.

therefore, acceptance and praise of an outside god, empowering of an outside god, the understanding of self as separate from infinity, are all detrimental to manifestation and progress.

there is neither the need for humility, nor the need for arrogance past that point.

Admittedly, I have not read all of the posts in this thread. But my understanding was that the discussion was about a perceived failure of the plan designed by this Logos, not the One Infinite Creator. Please forgive me if I have missed some pertinent posts in which the discussion turned to a perceived failure of the One Infinite Creator.

thats another issue, and correct indeed. it was about the plan of this logos. but, two people first identified this logos with infinity, then proceeded to defend its infallibility.

however it is also true on the highest level. (or maybe widest, i should say). the infinite intelligence is also not fallible. to be infallible, an entity needs to be infinity itself. however when infinity, there is no action, or reaction, nothing towards anything. infinity doesnt even exist, or it is nonexistent. it is a non factor.

therefore, intelligent infinity, the infinity which gained consciousness by self awareness, is an entity, and therefore, cant be infallible.

granted, the margin of error may be so narrow by our standards that it could be understood as infallibility, however, since each node of logos perceives itself as giving free will to its sub logoi (as Ra says so), the margin for error, the possibility to make mistakes should increase with each and every node that the logoi branch out.

therefore, it is possible that our central sun of the universe, may make mistakes, and experiments can fail. actually, that is why it is called an experiment in the first place, as Ra iterates countless times while talking about various logoi and their plans.

HOWEVER,

if, you look at the experiment from the 'discovering the nature of existence' part, the plan doesnt become a failure - because, the intent of th experiment then, should have been discovering of the limit of the free will. and when a particular experiment of giving free will repeatedly fails at one point (like the failure in this particular logos), then the whole universe (or our locale) will realize that, in our locale (each locale must have different characteristics), or in the conditions of our locale, giving this X amount of free will with Y amount of veil is the limit.

therefore, it makes the experiment a success by failure. it was intended to fail, with that regard.

however, trying to defend viability of the failure point, by just attributing 'greatness' to a creator which doesnt need any attribution, would be just irrational.

You raise a valid point. It is certainly possible that some members, maybe even all who have been involved in this thread, have had their buttons pushed. I saw that happen recently on another thread (with different participants). I agree with you that this is a very volatile topic, and volatile topics/radical ideas tend to push buttons. This is a very subconscious thing.

unfortunately so. even the open minded people have a lot of residual, subconscious conditioning from the thousands of years of conditioning and brainwashing particular hierarchical, control oriented religions and philosophies have injected into the culture.

i have first hand experience with this, being from a place which still has to battle for even the modest amount of open mindedness, leave aside the fact that i had to overcome these myself during my own journey of learning.

I'm sorry that you perceived rudeness and aggression on our forum. That's disconcerting. We try to maintain a loving and respectful tone here.

i didnt. i said that, normally such a discussion would proceed very rudely and aggressively in other places, and due to the nature of forum and the participants, it maintained its civility at a certain level.

...................

on another sidenote, topics should not be locked because some participants become aggressive, or insulting. that way, 2 person can get a thread locked even though 30 people are participating in it. this method is used by many trolls in many forums, and i have seen these myself in the forums i have ran myself.

this may not have happened in this occasion, but as the forum stays up it is inevitable that such people find their way here, and unfortunately there are many people who wont resonate with calls to civility and love or respect.

thread-banning should be used in my opinion. there are mods that allow that for many bulletin boards, there should be one for mybb too.

[Monica]

That may be true. However, perhaps hearts can bridge where intellects cannot.

this is not a matter of heart, a matter of thoughts and philosophies of 4d. this is a matter of 5 to 6 d and beyond, it involves understanding of disciplines and various philosophies. therefore, it cannot be bridged.

The 4th chakra is the foundation. The upper chakras (5th being communication, etc.) without the foundation of a loving heart is the definition of STS. Our forum is based upon a foundation of love and respect.

By opening the heart to love, the higher chakras can open and communication and understanding may be enhanced.

[unity100]

The 4th chakra is the foundation. The upper chakras (5th being communication, etc.) without the foundation of a loving heart is the definition of STS. Our forum is based upon a foundation of love and respect.

By opening the heart to love, the higher chakras can open and communication and understanding may be enhanced.

just as you say, opening of lower chakras are needed for higher chakra work. only way to reach 6th chakra (not open it fully, reach) apart from opening 4th, is using 1,2,3, then skipping to 5th and using it, opening it, then starting 6th. that being the negative road.

considering how it is impossible to get past mid 6th through the negative method, and considering a negative 6th would have no business discussing infinity with anyone in a bulletin board instead of manifesting various control faculties to acquire power in the society and use it, such a reminder and a warning is unnecessary for a person in my position, for i cant be one of them.

there is also a misconeption i believe, in regard to these.

as the entity's vibrations rise, the highest vibratory ray starts to define the feeling, the nature of the entity that it gives to others.

whereas for a 3d vibration this would be 'another person', 'someone who is self aware', for 4d that would be love, for 5d an intense amount of communication and expression, and 6th a feeling of unity, oneness, worth, or similar faculties.

in short - each entity will give the vibrations of its own density or the density it is channeling in. trying to seek love in all of these, is wrong, since love will be included next to ALL the other feelings and faculties up to that level.

motion and change, self needs and progress, self awareness and awareness of others, love and acceptance of others, communication and understanding of feelings, understanding and manifestation of unity and self worth.

that made up to 6. all of these basic feelings and concepts will be present in a 6th density entity's violet ray signature, and the resulting feeling it gives out will be a combination of all these, heavily on the 6th ray side, and NOT a separate feeling and emphasis of love. all is built in.

love is just a manifestation of one of the rays, and despite it is integral and important, it is not the existence, or intelligent infinity itself.

this is probably why Ra took the precaution to warn that 'some entities mistakenly worship love as if it was the creator itself'.

[Monica]

I think this entire thread could use a big dose of humility. Humility just means we acknowledge that ours is one of many possible viewpoints, and not necessarily the single 'right' answer. It also leaves room to learn something from someone else. It does not necessarily mean accepting an opinion we disagree with, or compromising our own opinions.

that is different and irrelevant though. respecting someone else's opinion and having to concede the thing someone else wants you to concede, despite being fundamentally in contrast with your own views and understanding, are two different things.

Agreed! That is precisely the point I was trying to make!

after 6th, there is no 'can i' or 'can i not', you just 'do' things. you may not be able to move a mountain by thought, however, there should be no relevance of this to your self-worth, and your self worth should not be lost when thinking or facing anything, because that means loss of 6th ray activity, henceforth, the very important connection to infinity.

after 6h, you don the 'we' understanding and concept. there is no 'outside' god, ie, there is no 'god', or 'intelligent infinity'. you think and act as 'we', an equal member of an infinite sea.

therefore, acceptance and praise of an outside god, empowering of an outside god, the understanding of self as separate from infinity, are all detrimental to manifestation and progress.

there is neither the need for humility, nor the need for arrogance past that point.

That may be true. However, this forum exists in 3D and there is an abundance of arrogance flying around this planet. A little humility in 3D is needed to balance the arrogance in 3D.

What is relevant to the discussion, from an intellectual standpoint, in 6D is very interesting to discuss. But the appeal for humility applied not to discussion, but to application...here in 3D.

Admittedly, I have not read all of the posts in this thread. But my understanding was that the discussion was about a perceived failure of the plan designed by this Logos, not the One Infinite Creator. Please forgive me if I have missed some pertinent posts in which the discussion turned to a perceived failure of the One Infinite Creator.

thats another issue, and correct indeed. it was about the plan of this logos. but, two people first identified this logos with infinity, then proceeded to defend its infallibility.

Aha! :idea: That does clarify a lot for me. So, you felt compelled to elaborate your point, that the logos is not infallible?

I actually agree with you wholeheartedly on that point. In fact, I have expressed this opinion on another thread, in which another member lamented the need for suffering in order to learn/evolve. I agreed on that point as well and stated that whenever I evolve to the point of participating in the design of a 3D world, I will drastically reduce the capacity for suffering.

At least, that is my intention, given my current 'limited' understanding!

I have also wondered if perhaps the reason for a flaw in the design is actually part of a greater design. I invite you to consider this: What if Wanderers are currently enrolled in a course of study that includes the design of 3D realities? Perhaps we are meant to learn from these flaws. Maybe getting indignant is a part of the process, so that we might improve upon these designs when it's our turn.

Just speculation...

however it is also true on the highest level. (or maybe widest, i should say). the infinite intelligence is also not fallible. to be infallible, an entity needs to be infinity itself. however when infinity, there is no action, or reaction, nothing towards anything. infinity doesnt even exist, or it is nonexistent. it is a non factor.

therefore, intelligent infinity, the infinity which gained consciousness by self awareness, is an entity, and therefore, cant be infallible.

Hmmm...interesting idea. I think I understand what you are saying. Thus, infallibility is without distortion?

granted, the margin of error may be so narrow by our standards that it could be understood as infallibility, however, since each node of logos perceives itself as giving free will to its sub logoi (as Ra says so), the margin for error, the possibility to make mistakes should increase with each and every node that the logoi branch out.

I have a programmer's background, so I'm envisioning a binary tree here.

therefore, it is possible that our central sun of the universe, may make mistakes, and experiments can fail. actually, that is why it is called an experiment in the first place, as Ra iterates countless times while talking about various logoi and their plans.

I wouldn't call it a failure, necessarily. Perhaps it is simply less than optimal. It would depend upon whatever the definition of success is. Success could be dependent upon a time factor. ie. is it a failure if a certain % of souls aren't harvestable by the end of the cycle? etc. How are success/failure defined? (If this was defined in a previous post, you don't have to repeat it here, but directing me to that post would be appreciated.)

HOWEVER,

if, you look at the experiment from the 'discovering the nature of existence' part, the plan doesnt become a failure - because, the intent of th experiment then, should have been discovering of the limit of the free will. and when a particular experiment of giving free will repeatedly fails at one point (like the failure in this particular logos), then the whole universe (or our locale) will realize that, in our locale (each locale must have different characteristics), or in the conditions of our locale, giving this X amount of free will with Y amount of veil is the limit.

therefore, it makes the experiment a success by failure. it was intended to fail, with that regard.

Brilliant analysis!

however, trying to defend viability of the failure point, by just attributing 'greatness' to a creator which doesnt need any attribution, would be just irrational.

Or, it may be that your particular ideas had not been considered before. I certainly had not thought of these ideas before.

You raise a valid point. It is certainly possible that some members, maybe even all who have been involved in this thread, have had their buttons pushed. I saw that happen recently on another thread (with different participants). I agree with you that this is a very volatile topic, and volatile topics/radical ideas tend to push buttons. This is a very subconscious thing.

unfortunately so. even the open minded people have a lot of residual, subconscious conditioning from the thousands of years of conditioning and brainwashing particular hierarchical, control oriented religions and philosophies have injected into the culture.

i have first hand experience with this, being from a place which still has to battle for even the modest amount of open mindedness, leave aside the fact that i had to overcome these myself during my own journey of learning.

It is an ongoing process for all of us. Just when we think we have cleared the issue completely, another layer appears...like the layers of an onion. We continue to mirror one another. If our buttons are pushed, then there is something in the other-self that is in us, that is being brought to our attention.

I'm sorry that you perceived rudeness and aggression on our forum. That's disconcerting. We try to maintain a loving and respectful tone here.

i didnt. i said that, normally such a discussion would proceed very rudely and aggressively in other places, and due to the nature of forum and the participants, it maintained its civility at a certain level.

Oh, then I am relieved to hear that I initially misunderstood!

on another sidenote, topics should not be locked because some participants become aggressive, or insulting. that way, 2 person can get a thread locked even though 30 people are participating in it. this method is used by many trolls in many forums, and i have seen these myself in the forums i have ran myself.

Agreed. That's why this thread hasn't been locked. There is value in this discussion. However, respect is required on this forum, so I was quite serious when I said that further discord would not be tolerated, even if it means locking the thread. But I am optimistic that this won't be necessary. I have faith in our members' capacity to facilitate peaceful resolution.

this may not have happened in this occasion, but as the forum stays up it is inevitable that such people find their way here, and unfortunately there are many people who wont resonate with calls to civility and love or respect.

Perhaps. But so far, calls for civility and love/respect have served us well!

---

in short - each entity will give the vibrations of its own density or the density it is channeling in. trying to seek love in all of these, is wrong, since love will be included next to ALL the other feelings and faculties up to that level.

I am seeking an expression of love on this thread because it seemed to be missing.

[unity100]

Aha! :idea: That does clarify a lot for me. So, you felt compelled to elaborate your point, that the logos is not infallible?

nothing aside from infinity is infallible. since infinity has no effect on anything, a non factor, the point zero, it is irrelevant. that makes every existent thing, fallible.

I invite you to consider this: What if Wanderers are currently enrolled in a course of study that includes the design of 3D realities? Perhaps we are meant to learn from these flaws. Maybe getting indignant is a part of the process, so that we might improve upon these designs when it's our turn.

that goes beyond saying, since there has been 65 million + wanderers and increasing, since 1980 in this planet, mostly belonging to Ra and the other two complexes that aided this world before. combining it with what quo says, there is a specific course for Ra and the other two complexes here.

BUT,

yes, i think there is a greater course here, at least, the guardians that are local to this solar system - notice how they started quarantineing this planet since last 25,000 years. this was not in effect before. moreover, mass incarnation of wanderers were also allowed.

i very much suspect, the guardians that were in charge long ago, when maldek was about, are still in this octave though.

then again that is a matter of debate.

however the faults learned here will be the faults not repeated elsewhere in the universe.

Hmmm...interesting idea. I think I understand what you are saying. Thus, infallibility is without distortion?

yes. only infinity is infallible, but then again, since infinity doesnt do anything, or isnt done anything to it, it is a non factor, it is irrelevant. this makes any entity, including possibly the infinite intelligence, fallible. hence, the 'learning itself' concept.

I have a programmer's background, so I'm envisioning a binary tree here.

not powers of two, probably powers of infinite, as much as the power of that local node supports the total draw of energy from itself to its sublogoi.

then again there is also the point that, after a certain point, as Ra says, the energy gets started being supplied directly from 'the creator'. whether Ra meant local logos with this, or, the infinite intelligence, it is not certain. however, it is very possibly the latter.

I wouldn't call it a failure, necessarily. Perhaps it is simply less than optimal. It would depend upon whatever the definition of success is. Success could be dependent upon a time factor. ie. is it a failure if a certain % of souls aren't harvestable by the end of the cycle? etc. How are success/failure defined? (If this was defined in a previous post, you don't have to repeat it here, but directing me to that post would be appreciated.)

it is a failure if the intent was to give, lets make up an arbitrary measure, 95% free will to entities, but it was seen that doing as such was imbalanced, and lead to disfunctionality. initial plan to give 95% free will fails, lesson is learned. success in a grander scheme in that the limit of free will and cloaking is discovered, specific to the circumstances at hand.

Or, it may be that your particular ideas had not been considered before. I certainly had not thought of these ideas before.

someone, somewhere, probably considered these before, on this planet. i also got these ideas intuitively or transmittedly, from whatever 'source(s)' that knew or realized these before in this octave, before me. they may not have been voiced in such an open public before, in the age of internet maybe.

Agreed. That's why this thread hasn't been locked. There is value in this discussion. However, respect is required on this forum, so I was quite serious when I said that further discord would not be tolerated, even if it means locking the thread. But I am optimistic that this won't be necessary. I have faith in our members' capacity to facilitate peaceful resolution.

even if it doesnt happen in this thread, there will be future occasions in which totally irrelevant people get at odds with each other due to discussing topics sensitive to themselves.

just giving an example of the fact that Ra says the ten commandments were given by a negative, service to self source, and the entities gave these as commandments and warnings because the recipient was positive, should be sufficient example on how discussing some topics can become inflammatory for some. this topic alone should directly offend some certain religions' members just because what Ra said, leave aside what may be discussed on that topic.

as i see it, locking of such a discussion because some people with certain conditionings and views may get aggressive against others or the forum, or the topic itself, would be a disservice to others. also, it would mean bowing to a negative reaction/act.

thats why i recommended topic-ban modification to the forum script. it would allow banning of individual users from specific topics, therefore removing those people from just that topic, but not rest of the forum, and also allowing other members who are not getting aggressive, to be able to discuss the topic.

[Monica]

Unity, I agree, for the most part, with your last post. Thank you for clarifying your ideas!

[unity100]

my pleasure

[Cyclops]

Oxal Sunday Meeting, October 17, 1976

Moreover, there is a great satisfaction on the love of a personality in, shall we say, vengeance or getting even. But what you are doing, my friends, when you answer those who judge you with an answering judgment, is collecting your karma, as you would call it, there on the spot. Yet your karma to them has not been collected, and you will answer for that karma. Far better that you allow the karma that has come to you to die, as you forgive, and in that forgiveness, the karma that is reflected from you is satisfied. Whatever one has done to you, let it end there, my brothers.

Q'uo Sunday Meditation February 24, 2002

It is extremely helpful to realize that the nature of communication is that of speaking to a mirror. The other self with whom you are communicating is a very faithful mirror of you. And those things that you see in that mirror are those things within yourself with which you either greatly agree or greatly disagree. Usually, amongst third-density entities the preponderance of reactions that one has concerning other selves remains loaded with bias and judgment and a lack of love. And this is as it should be in an environment in which each of you is attempting to fathom what love is and to begin to make choices that are loving choices. Realize each time that you begin to communicate that you are communicating with the Creator and that that Creator is communicating back to you, offering you a mirror in which you may see your nature.

Q'uo Sunday Meditation December 5, 1999

If you become aware of a situation in which your words are not being heard, then it is that you may ask yourself whether you wish to be heard or whether you wish to allow the other self to express that which that self wishes to express and assume a role of simply listening. In many instances the appropriate response we would say, metaphysically speaking, is simply to abandon the desire to be heard and become a sounding board that can hear what an other self is attempting to say. This yielding up of the inner agenda and the thing to say is a mark of spiritual maturity. It is an action very difficult to complete, for there is within each self a deep well of desire to be heard, to be heard by the self, and to be heard by those other selves which have meaning for the self. And yet many times the straightest and shortest distance to clear communication is to become silent, to release the desire to be heard and to accept, temporarily, a role of purely listening.

When you experience substantial difficulties in communication, know immediately that you are not in blue ray. And take the time in your mind to contemplate the conversation that was not clear, looking for the signature of the energy center that is blocked, over-stimulated, or in some way distorted. Often you will find an orange-ray blockage when the conversation is between two people and about something that is between those two people. In this situation you are literally looking in a mirror and that which you think that the other has said is a reflection of that which you have said.

The deepest aid to communication is character. If an entity has the humility and the patience to work with another entity to achieve clear communication nothing will keep that entity from achieving clear communication. But it is to the humble only that this becomes true. Your yellow-ray world, this world of Earth and the human experience is absolutely dependent upon communication. It is attempting to learn the lessons of love for individuals and for groups. So much about communication at the level at which you are now enjoying experience has the agenda of drawing groups together as well as drawing individuals together.

Q'uo Sunday Meditation May 15, 2005

In some cases, they were agreements to clear up or balance adhering catalyst that sometimes is called karma by your peoples. Some of these people showed up in your life as people with whom you seemed to have nothing but a continuing argument or for whom you could not feel as you “ought,”—and we use that word in quotes—especially people in your family whose object, in this incarnation, seems to be to create interference and resistance in your own pattern.

In many cases, this person was chosen specifically so that you could work on loving yourself. It is often very difficult to approach in a direct way the central challenge of loving the self and so you are given mirrors. Sometimes the mirrors are loving and honest and you get a pretty fair image of yourself, one that you can look upon with some feelings of stability and trust in that image that you are seeing.

When you look at yourself through the mirror of other entities, such as those about whom we spoke, those that give you the catalyst, the interference and resistance, you are a looking at a very skewed and distorted mirror of yourself and yet it is a mirror of those parts of yourself with which you have had arguments in the past, perhaps not even in this lifetime but in between incarnations or in other incarnations. Perhaps you do not have adhering catalyst with this entity. Perhaps you put that entity in your life simply to learn to love without expectation of return. However, as you forgive that entity for its skewed picture of you, you begin to see that you have only to forgive yourself in order to create room within that portion of yourself that we would call the heart.

Q'uo Sunday Meditation March 13, 1994

I am Q’uo, and we shall continue. However, each entity must move in that fashion which brings it into closest harmony with the concept of love and acceptance, for it is not clearly known within your illusion where this point of truth resides, though each sees it with what seems to be a clear eye. Thus, it is not truth or wisdom which is of importance within your illusion, for they are concepts which are beyond your illusion. It is instead that which accepts the Creator in all faces and then does what it will in the face of love and with the motivation of love.

Q'uo Sunday Meditation September 3, 1995

Perhaps we would say that the ideal between teacher and student is a union wherein each shares what each has brought and the other listens in a way that does not distort and together there is the plaiting of one strand of thought with another and another and another in a rope or string of new connections and new facets to the subject that both are focused upon. This is the kind of teaching which gives both new strength and a new awareness and a continuing desire for more.

At the same time we need to look at the fact that is so well known to this instrument and to each of you and that is that there is only one self. There is only one Creator and insofar as the deepest levels of truth that we know may go, the basic truth is that all centers of consciousness alike work upon the self, for what is not the self?

Within third density talking, communicating, expressing the self and even the arguing, the disputes, the dynamics of difference are the meat and drink of those who wish to learn and those who wish to seek the truth. We encourage each to know within the self that the way of being, the way of living, is a great offering, we feel, the greatest offering and the first job, shall we say, of those who wish to serve. Everything springs from your beingness, so the first career of any seeker is that career of one who seeks to live devotionally throughout a lifetime. In terms of students and teachers this dedication to a life of devotion and faith makes one the eternal student and the eternal teacher. Again, the paradox.

[Monica]

As always, you provide the much-needed, appropriate quotes, Cyclops! Thanks!

[unity100]

Lets not forget that Ra, as quo collective, which is apparently a collective of Ra, latwii and hatonn itself states, is again on earth due to the need to learn more wisdom, since it was seen that, those who were 'lifted' with assitance through light veil that was present before, were having issues in regard to penetrating the seemingly negative traits of time/space in later densities.

If love is a power, wisdom is the scalpel's tool. Wisdom is needed to know, and discern what is needed to be done at any given point, for any kind of service that is to be rendered. Some service, may not seem full of love at all. Just consider the veil that is put here on this world. Just consider the quarantine that is practiced on this world. There are innumerable entities craving for help inside the quarantine, there are innumerable entities craving to help outside the quarantine, yet they are not allowed to reach each other, except through a lot of ordeals and preconditions. There are innumerable entities on this planet who have been separated from their subconscious, their connection with the creation far too long, when compared to most parts of this particular galaxy, yet, the veil still is separating their conscious and subconscious, only getting thinner these days with the increasing green ray vibrations, because planet nears such a space/time point in its continuum.

Love may be needed for 3rd density environment, and due to their extreme distortion to love, ra and other wanderer groups may be here to also render that service, but, they should not forget that, they are also to balance their love with wisdom here. Treating wisdom as if it was a negative thing, and ignoring or pushing it out is wrong.

With wisdom comes knowledge, with knowledge comes understanding of various cause-effect relationships, behavior types and patterns, momentums, possibilities. And with these come identifications, groupings, and similar others.

You cant just love everything into oneness and harmony. You cant bring everything together with love and harmony. Some facets of existence, do not want that, and regardless of how hard you try it or how much love you bring by amassing your forces, they will not accept it.

You couldnt love everyone into harmony, by placing yourself in everyone's shoes, seeing them in the mirror when you look at your image, this and that, in year 1938, in northwest europe. A sharp example on extreme end, however it is an important basic example, that is not endemic to this planet or experience. Similarly, it may not be so very well defined and extreme, but, similar circumstances will appear in higher densities too, in which you cant love everyone into harmony, but need to use wisdom too. You will need to operate like a surgeon in order to be of any service.

This will only change, if and when the galaxy becomes wise enough, and enters 6th density as an entity probably. But then again, wisdom will become sufficently powerful part of its composition. Such a state would appear 'less loving' to those who overemphasize love.

[thefool]

My beloveds !!!
Know that you are all loved and you are all very precious. Each of you with your unique viewpoints enhances and pushes the boundaries of this universe.

We are here to balance love with the wisdom and sometimes one aspect start to tip the scale so to speak against another. We have to just recognize and start the balancing again. There is great learning and opportunity on the planet earth for doing that. That is why we are here for. I am prompted to share a story that you might have already heard but the lesson offered is timeless- goes something like this---

'there were 4 wise men searching for truth and went to their master. master said I can show you the truth but you have to close your eyes. Then the master covered their eyes with strips of cloth and took them to a secret place where he would show them the truth. It was a dark place and their eyes were covered but master said each of them to feel the truth with their touch. After they got the opportunity to know the truth in their own way, they were asked to come out and master opened their eyes. Master explained that they all got the opportunity to experience the truth and now it is their turn to elaborate it.

one man said- truth is like big pillars. second said- NO, it is like big drum. third said- NO, you are all wrong, it is like a big snake and the fourth said- No No NO, what were you looking at? you are all wrong; it is like a big paddle. Soon they started fighting and arguing with each other.

So master intervened and took them again to the place of truth now with their eyes open. They were all very surprised to see a big elephant in that place. They each had an aspect of the elephant that they were exploring from their vantage point. Each of them was convinced of their conviction and thought other perceived wrong. They all were experiencing but the same thing just different aspects of it.'

my beloveds I would leave you with the deep meaning of this ancient wisdom and also with the final thought- the cold logic works by dividing and the heart works by uniting...

[Richard]

So master intervened and took them again to the place of truth now with their eyes open. They were all very surprised to see a big elephant in that place. They each had an aspect of the elephant that they were exploring from their vantage point. Each of them was convinced of their conviction and thought other perceived wrong. They all were experiencing but the same thing just different aspects of it.'

Wise words....which has been the point all along. That we all experience or perceive the universe, infinity, creation..or however you name it differently. Who is to say who is actually right or wrong...if those concepts even apply. In the end..philosophy usually ends up with disagreements.

I don't know the secrets of the universe. Never claimed to. And I certainly never claimed that it was necessary to "humble" myself before anything. Lets not get humility mixed up with awe.

Richard