Even those Enlightened have distortion?

[zenmaster]

Contact with intelligent infinity during incarnation goes beyond harvest requirements. 7th subdensity is just where we are able to balance a little bit of green-ray basically - that's it. Whereas intelligent infinity contact involves access violet through indigo.

I agree that contact with intelligent infinity goes beyond harvest requirements, and I wasn't arguing otherwise. However, the 7th subdensity is contact with intelligent infinity in yellow ray. It goes beyond natural harvest requirements and allows one to self harvest, be that positive or negative.

i.e. You don't have to reach the violet ray subdensity in order to graduate from 3rd density, that is adept work.

What do you think that the highest vibration of 3D implies contact with intelligent infinity, when the lesson of 3D is to begin to appreciate "love"?

I'm thinking that the 7th subdensity is just the vibration of thought which is finally able to express and to appreciate the totality of 3D lessons. Each subdensity transcends, yet includes, the prior subdensity. Yet only in the last subdensity is there a appreciation for the sum total of the vibration as a whole.
This sort of follows with the the "Great Way" archetype.

Harvest is about overall balance which is a sum of lifetime's work expressed in violet ray. After death, you are afforded that sum-total beingness.

No argument here. The indigo subdensity is the utilzation of indigo ray, insofar as it can be expressed within this density, and violet subdensity is violet ray expression of the sacramental insofar as it is able to be expressed in yellow ray.

But it's *not* the indigo subdensity. The third density subdensities are bounded, at the upper end, by the vibrations which correspond with lessons of that particular density as a whole.

Crystallization just means enough balance has been achieved by the personality within a center for example, that energy through that center is less impeded and more supported in more circumstances. That is the work of what Ra would call an "adept".

Agreed, and I wasn't arguing otherwise. That's why I said crystallization is synonymous with balance. No balance = no crystallization. If you are balanced = you are crystallized.

Balance is relative. One can simply achieve sufficient balance to support 7th subdensity lessons without being crystallized.

Crystallization would imply a more secure or stabilized footing in balance, if I had to split hairs in definitions however.

Yes, that is what it implies. That crystallization is *more* balance than is required in order to learn some particular set of lessons which provide access to a higher vibration.

[Unbound]

But was the question about what enlightenment means?

How do you answer a question about the nature of something without addressing what it is? To answer the question, I say yes, those "enlightened" still have distortions, and rather an awareness of that fact.

If it's just "the natural state", then why would that not be be implicit?

Implicit to whom? I am communicating ideas, I do not know what assumptions others have made so I express what seems appropriate from my perspective.

[zenmaster]

But was the question about what enlightenment means?

How do you answer a question about the nature of something without addressing what it is? To answer the question, I say yes, those "enlightened" still have distortions, and rather an awareness of that fact.

If it's just "the natural state", then why would that not be be implicit?

Implicit to whom?

Implicit to any and everyone reading this thread.

I am communicating ideas, I do not know what assumptions others have made so I express what seems appropriate from my perspective.

Why do you say you do not know what assumptions others have made, yet question the rationale behind not rephrasing "enlightenment"?

[Unbound]

But was the question about what enlightenment means?

How do you answer a question about the nature of something without addressing what it is? To answer the question, I say yes, those "enlightened" still have distortions, and rather an awareness of that fact.

If it's just "the natural state", then why would that not be be implicit?

Implicit to whom?

Implicit to any and everyone reading this thread.

I am communicating ideas, I do not know what assumptions others have made so I express what seems appropriate from my perspective.

Why do you say you do not know what assumptions others have made, yet question the rationale behind not rephrasing "enlightenment"?

I don't even feel like responding to this, consider me gone from the conversation. I was just asking and trying to learn what I may because I don't know. You've got all the answers, you tell me.

---

I would add that I question because I do not know, even if I were to assume the intentions or assumption of others prior to asking I will not be able to know for sure until I have interacted with that person and more directly asked them. It is only through that actual experience of a thing that you are able to come to know what a thing is as part lf your experience. I am learn/teaching, not teach/learning, you could say lulz

[zenmaster]

This is all part of the appeal to absolutes which is another silly form of spiritual bypassing. Here in 3D, consciousness evolves and this is explained throughout the Ra Material.

[Adonai One]

Is the intention of the sub-Logos not all possibilities that can occur in a density? Or is there a structure to follow?

[zenmaster]

Is the intention of the sub-Logos not all possibilities that can occur in a density? Or is there a structure to follow?

The structure of evolution in 3D is dictated by several factors including the nature of mind and the body. Here in 3D, there is a process of moving from more to less distortion, thus becoming more and more "enlightened" (literally light filled). We allow that light due to a capacity which is afforded through our development. To deny that process, that necessary development, with appeal to infinities of possibility and some temporary insight is bypassing - also part of the new-age meme.

[Unbound]

Well I agree with you completely, so I don't really know what our disagreement is.

[anagogy]

What do you think that the highest vibration of 3D implies contact with intelligent infinity, when the lesson of 3D is to begin to appreciate "love"?

The kundalini, or meeting place between inner and outer vibratory understanding, is raised higher and higher in each density. This is why the requirements for harvest in each density are different. The kundalini need only be raised to the heart chakra in order to graduate from third density (consistently, not just in one incarnation). In lower densities, the requirement was less (I don't have quotes to support this, it is just intuition so take it for what its worth I suppose). The energy centers in any given density are correlated with the subdensities of that density. They are like portals to the true colors, and energies are limited in expression by the structure of the current true color framework.

So one can go beyond the necessary lessons, if one so desires, and do preliminary balancing which is primary to higher densities, though the learning is restricted by the current densities structure so you can only take it so far of course.

But it's *not* the indigo subdensity. The third density subdensities are bounded, at the upper end, by the vibrations which correspond with lessons of that particular density as a whole.

I agree with you in some respect, that's why I say it is indigo as expressed in true color yellow. It allows as much indigo expression as can be supported within the framework of 3rd density vibrations. So in this case, it would be the expression of faith or "believingness" in all its varieties as it is expressed in our density. Violet ray is a deepening of this "believingness" into a kind of "knowingness" and wholeness, beginning to teeter on "beingness" which would be more properly correlated with the octave density.

[zenmaster]

The energy centers in 3D are certainly not correlated with the subdensities as in a mapping from red=1st -> violet=7th.
If you are vibrating on the 7th subdensity, that's an expression of minimal/beginning green center balance. Has nothing to do with higher balance or even necessary use of those centers.

[Unbound]

So how would that work for someone with dual-activated bodies?

---

Is the intention of the sub-Logos not all possibilities that can occur in a density? Or is there a structure to follow?

The structure of evolution in 3D is dictated by several factors including the nature of mind and the body. Here in 3D, there is a process of moving from more to less distortion, thus becoming more and more "enlightened" (literally light filled). We allow that light due to a capacity which is afforded through our development. To deny that process, that necessary development, with appeal to infinities of possibility and some temporary insight is bypassing - also part of the new-age meme.

Also, I thought the purpose of learning the ways of love in 3D is so that the choice of polarity can be made?

[zenmaster]

So how would that work for someone with dual-activated bodies?

Same way, except the societal mind supports or inhibits the next density of thought.

Is the intention of the sub-Logos not all possibilities that can occur in a density? Or is there a structure to follow?

The structure of evolution in 3D is dictated by several factors including the nature of mind and the body. Here in 3D, there is a process of moving from more to less distortion, thus becoming more and more "enlightened" (literally light filled). We allow that light due to a capacity which is afforded through our development. To deny that process, that necessary development, with appeal to infinities of possibility and some temporary insight is bypassing - also part of the new-age meme.

Also, I thought the purpose of learning the ways of love in 3D is so that the choice of polarity can be made?

The choice of polarity is an expression of a viewpoint bias which is developed as opportunities for acceptance or limitations are allowed, taken, supported and reinforced. The "choice" is consciously made available for the choosing just as much as it is consciously invoked.

[Unbound]

So everyone is bound by the societal mind, in other words, and the mechanism of the choice is entirely manufactured through use of catalyst?

[zenmaster]

So everyone is bound by the societal mind, in other words, and the mechanism of the choice is entirely manufactured through use of catalyst?

Yes.

[Unbound]

So everyone is bound by the societal mind, in other words, and the mechanism of the choice is entirely manufactured through use of catalyst?

Yes.

I have seen you mention before about "4D manifestation in local space/time", so how could that kind of thing be possible?

[anagogy]

The energy centers in 3D are certainly not correlated with the subdensities as in a mapping from red=1st -> violet=7th.
If you are vibrating on the 7th subdensity, that's an expression of minimal/beginning green center balance. Has nothing to do with higher balance or even necessary use of those centers.

I can think of several quotes where Ra directly correlates the energy centers with subdensities.

For example:

17.38 Questioner: Well, does each… does… this is difficult. Our physical plane: Are there seven sub-planes to what we call our physical plane here?

Ra: I am Ra. You are correct. This is difficult to understand. There are an infinite number of planes. In your particular space/time continuum distortion there are seven sub-planes of mind/body/spirit complexes. You will discover the vibrational nature of these seven planes as you pass through your experiential distortions, meeting other-selves of the various levels which correspond to the energy influx centers of the physical vehicle.

The invisible, or inner, third-density planes are inhabited by those who are not of body complex natures such as yours; that is, they do not collect about their spirit/mind complexes a chemical body. Nevertheless these entities are divided in what you may call an artificial dream within a dream into various levels. In the upper levels, desire to communicate knowledge back down to the outer planes of existence becomes less, due to the intensive learn/teaching which occurs upon these levels.

17.39 Questioner: Then is it necessary to penetrate one plane at a time as we move from what we call third-density physical through these planes?

Ra: I am Ra. It has been our experience that some penetrate several planes at one time. Others penetrate them slowly. Some in eagerness attempt to penetrate the higher planes before penetrating the energies of the so-called lower or more fundamental planes. This causes energy imbalance.

You will find ill health, as you call this distortion, to frequently be the result of a subtle mismatch of energies in which some of the higher energy levels are being activated by the conscious attempts of the entity while the entity has not penetrated the lower energy centers or sub-densities of this density.

[zenmaster]

So everyone is bound by the societal mind, in other words, and the mechanism of the choice is entirely manufactured through use of catalyst?

Yes.

I have seen you mention before about "4D manifestation in local space/time", so how could that kind of thing be possible?

Local is an incarnation. So by body, which is composed of the local 4D core elements and mind which is of that 4D vibration and attached to that body.

---

The energy centers in 3D are certainly not correlated with the subdensities as in a mapping from red=1st -> violet=7th.
If you are vibrating on the 7th subdensity, that's an expression of minimal/beginning green center balance. Has nothing to do with higher balance or even necessary use of those centers.

I can think of several quotes where Ra directly correlates the energy centers with subdensities.

For example:

17.38 Questioner: Well, does each… does… this is difficult. Our physical plane: Are there seven sub-planes to what we call our physical plane here?

Ra: I am Ra. You are correct. This is difficult to understand. There are an infinite number of planes. In your particular space/time continuum distortion there are seven sub-planes of mind/body/spirit complexes. You will discover the vibrational nature of these seven planes as you pass through your experiential distortions, meeting other-selves of the various levels which correspond to the energy influx centers of the physical vehicle.

The invisible, or inner, third-density planes are inhabited by those who are not of body complex natures such as yours; that is, they do not collect about their spirit/mind complexes a chemical body. Nevertheless these entities are divided in what you may call an artificial dream within a dream into various levels. In the upper levels, desire to communicate knowledge back down to the outer planes of existence becomes less, due to the intensive learn/teaching which occurs upon these levels.

17.39 Questioner: Then is it necessary to penetrate one plane at a time as we move from what we call third-density physical through these planes?

Ra: I am Ra. It has been our experience that some penetrate several planes at one time. Others penetrate them slowly. Some in eagerness attempt to penetrate the higher planes before penetrating the energies of the so-called lower or more fundamental planes. This causes energy imbalance.

You will find ill health, as you call this distortion, to frequently be the result of a subtle mismatch of energies in which some of the higher energy levels are being activated by the conscious attempts of the entity while the entity has not penetrated the lower energy centers or sub-densities of this density.

When Ra says "penetrating" they do not mean balancing or working with, they mean able to work with or had an experience with - "activated" which is random and unconscious. The balance necessary to be "at" a particular subdensity relies soley on the average balance of the yellow and green centers. In other words, when one is harvestable, that is not the 4th subdensity of 3rd density. That's the completion of 7th subdensity, which signals ability to accept 4th density light. Makes sense? What you say regarding crystalization does not apply.

"the adept is one which will go beyond the green ray which signals entry into harvestability. " If you claim that the 4th subdensity is simply working to balance green ray, then the next level of vibration is necessarily 4 subdensities away. That's 4 subdensities with lessons unlearned or experienced. You don't skip the half the lessons of a density in order to be prepared for the next density.

[Unbound]

I think I get what you mean, but could you give me an example to illustrate?

[zenmaster]

I think I get what you mean, but could you give me an example to illustrate?

Not sure what kind of example you want? "local" means of space/time rather than "non-local" or time/space. space/time is by convention "physical" and time/space is "metaphysical". Regardless of density, in reality space and time are two identities or qualities to describe the exact same thing. Each local and non-local body is a manifestation of what Ra would call a "dynamic tension of the magnetic field".

[Unbound]

Perhaps I misunderstood you, as when you said 4D manifestation I thought you meant a 4D manifestation within 3D perception. I understand that each density has its own corresponding space/time and time/space so I thought you meant that 4D could manifest in 3D space/time.

[zenmaster]

Perhaps I misunderstood you, as when you said 4D manifestation I thought you meant a 4D manifestation within 3D perception. I understand that each density has its own corresponding space/time and time/space so I thought you meant that 4D could manifest in 3D space/time.

That would be a contradiction, except during the transition period where there is a mix.

[Unbound]

Perhaps I misunderstood you, as when you said 4D manifestation I thought you meant a 4D manifestation within 3D perception. I understand that each density has its own corresponding space/time and time/space so I thought you meant that 4D could manifest in 3D space/time.

That would be a contradiction, except during the transition period where there is a mix.

Fair enough, so what do you think is the mechanism for negative self-harvest? There must be ways to cross that boundary even without the transition period?

---

Could you maybe create a local state that is similar or the same as the transition period?

[anagogy]

When Ra says "penetrating" they do not mean balancing or working with, they mean able to work with or had an experience with - "activated" which is random and unconscious. The balance necessary to be "at" a particular subdensity relies soley on the average balance of the yellow and green centers. In other words, when one is harvestable, that is not the 4th subdensity of 3rd density. That's the completion of 7th subdensity, which signals ability to accept 4th density light. Makes sense? What you say regarding crystalization does not apply.

I interpret "penetrated" as "gained experiential access to". Incidentally, you can't experience something without working with it or balancing it some extent, no matter how slight that may be. But to answer your question, no, it doesn't make sense to me. The quotes still seem to clearly imply to me that the subdensities correspond to the energy centers directly. That is what makes sense to me logically, and intuitively, especially when I read those passages. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

"the adept is one which will go beyond the green ray which signals entry into harvestability. " If you claim that the 4th subdensity is simply working to balance green ray, then the next level of vibration is necessarily 4 subdensities away. That's 4 subdensities with lessons unlearned or experienced. You don't skip the half the lessons of a density in order to be prepared for the next density.

But see, that's just it, those other four subdensities are like advanced classes. They are there for those who want to get the last little bit of toothpaste out of the bottle. They aren't necessary for graduation, any more than it is necessary to get a 4.0 to graduate from college or high school.

The yellow ray vibrational spectrum encompasses the vibrational possibilities of thought within our density. The preparatory vibrational material of thought required for the beginning of the understanding of the vibrational framework that is green ray is the 4th subdensity of 3D, which, keep in mind, also has subdensities within subdensities. There is plenty of subtleties to work with, even at the 3rd density level of consciousness.

[zenmaster]

I'll concede and mostly agree anagogy, based on the subdensities simply being entirely overlayed, extant with all densities, and not analogous to steps of light, as I had assumed. I appreciate the clarification. Given that model, the crystallized being would be of the 7th subdensity - although that severely begs the question of this statement:

"There were those peripherally associated with this culture which did not stay. However, they were not able to be harvested either and so, beginning at the very highest, shall we say, of the sub-octaves of third density, repeated this density."

Which either means the unharvestable were crystallized beings or that the 150 were crystallized beings as you said.

---

Perhaps I misunderstood you, as when you said 4D manifestation I thought you meant a 4D manifestation within 3D perception. I understand that each density has its own corresponding space/time and time/space so I thought you meant that 4D could manifest in 3D space/time.

That would be a contradiction, except during the transition period where there is a mix.

Fair enough, so what do you think is the mechanism for negative self-harvest? There must be ways to cross that boundary even without the transition period?

It's the ability to accept and work with a sufficient amount of light. In STS, that light is concentrated in the lower centers. I believe when the form-maker body is provided with that ability the bootstrapping to next density is natural and automatic.

Could you maybe create a local state that is similar or the same as the transition period?

AFAIK, to do that locally, you'd have to actually possess the understanding necessary to tap intelligent energy to transform yourself. That type of awareness is presumably not available because our brain/mind can't provide the means to support the necessary conception.

[Unbound]

You say presume, which means it isn't actually known for certain whether or not that is possible. I presume we make the assumption because it is not something that is happening to us.

[anagogy]

I'll concede and mostly agree anagogy, based on the subdensities simply being entirely overlayed, extant with all densities, and not analogous to steps of light, as I had assumed. I appreciate the clarification. Given that model, the crystallized being would be of the 7th subdensity - although that severely begs the question of this statement:

"There were those peripherally associated with this culture which did not stay. However, they were not able to be harvested either and so, beginning at the very highest, shall we say, of the sub-octaves of third density, repeated this density."

Which either means the unharvestable were crystallized beings or that the 150 were crystallized beings as you said.

I had a feeling you would bring up this very quote, and you're right, it raises some interesting questions.

For example, if they did not stay, where did they go? Also, Ra doesn't say why they were not able to be harvested, which is very curious. Possibly they had karmic obligations to attend to? Perhaps they just desired to keep incarnating in 3rd density because they weren't ready to leave? I wish I had a satisfactory answer. It is possible to incarnate in the highest subvibrational level and then due to poor choice in thought lower in vibration, until you are not harvestable. It would seem the 150 beings which were harvestable simply wanted to stay and raise the consciousness of those who were not harvestable.

My best guess is simply that "peripherally associated" were part of the 150 described harvestable entities. Ra's use of the words "unharvestable either" leads me to conclude they simply chose to stay and raise consciousness also, as crystallized beings, but elsewhere in 3rd density, or perhaps elsewhere on the planet. It could also be, that not all of the 150 were crystallized beings, except in the sense of being 4th density harvestable. It may have just been the peripheral beings that reincarnated in the highest subvibrational level. But who knows.