Sexual addiction! and Male-Female energy roles/energies

[irpsit]

Biu-Tze, sometimes we have to go through a lost of obsession to heal that same obsession.

Sex is healthy if balanced. Masturbation can be healthy if balanced.
Drugs and psychedelics should be avoided (I speak by experience).
I believe many people use them because they are spiritually hungry (like I did).
But meditation, yoga, going into the nature, are healthier alternatives.

Well, you are having a life of immense growth, you bet!

[Biu_Tze]

I treasure the psychedelic experiences I have had! Although a few have been VERYYYY demonic as I would call them. None the less, they ended well, and I am happy with the outcome. I appreciate your insight and good intentions tho! I'm not too into yoga, I may try qigong or something eventually tho I definitely love nature, I live in Minnesota, and the snow has JUST started to slowly leave, so I will be doing a lot more of that soon! I'm glad my computer broke and that my girlfriend has some really restrictive parental controls set up! I was fiending for it yesterday! I'm going to try to find some of that taoist masturbation stuff online asap, because 2 weeks + is starting to get a little crazy!

As a completed unrelated to this topic sidenote, I feel like some people REALLY benefit from the psychedelic experience! It's such a big eye opener. They are here to aide us, but like anything, especially a form of power such as they are, respect it to the fullest, or you will get thrown on you butt!

[Lavazza]

Edit: edited.

[irpsit]

I sometimes get a little angry at society for bombarding me with sexual imagery that pushes my buttons.

Yes, I totally agree!
Man's body always react to sensual imagery.

I would prefer to live in a world in which those sex imagery abuses would not exist. But in a world open to spiritual and simple sexuality.

[Lavazza]

Edit: edited.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Fantastic post, Pablisimo! That was a pleasure to read- do not fear that you're being received as long winded. I very much appreciate you, and everyone here for sharing so candidly and being so willing to jump in and really examine these topics from all angles. I've mostly just had my own thoughts to examine and re-examine over the last 5 or so years while I grew more uncomfortable with my habits. That can be a real dead end after a while. Having all of your voices to add in with my own has opened up many new avenues of thought to explore.

Regarding the way males respond to visual sexual stimuli, yes, I couldn't agree more. It's a fact that has been exploited by the media and advertisers in the last 60 years or so, in ever increasing "density" shall we say. It's almost a collective neurosis, which might be a good side discussion at a later point. But suffice to say, I would be willing to stake that no male in western culture can go through life without being effected by it to some degree. I'm also quick to add that this does not excuse anyone from being responsible. But yes, it's very true that we have the extra baggage of finding an internal balance that our perhaps more evolved female counterparts do not, in general, have to worry about

This is a typical male response to feminine energy--- And what of the cultures where women are wearing the chadorah... or in cultures where every one is naked--- Rape and subjectation and objectifying of women still occurs... boys--- you miss the point this is about power and the misuse of power. Claiming that you are victims of your anatomy is a cop-out.

fairyfarmgirl

[Peregrinus]

"Women fall in love through their ears, men fall in love through their eyes." - Woodrow Wyatt

This is, of course, another way that male and female are different and is part of the ape mind, not the spiritual mind.

[Biu_Tze]

Visualizing a loving experience sounds nice, I'm concerned I may visualize individuals I've seen before, baby steps just are a hard thing for me, all or nothing roar!
-chuckles- thanks for your replies, I appreciate you trying to keep us boys in line fairy, I think to an extent you are right, but it's hard to know about something such as this without the full experience of it. I think there needs to be some middle ground of mutual understanding. finding such a thing could be quite difficult tho! but seems worthwhile!

[Pablísimo]

Lavazza, Biu, & Irpsit,

Thank you for your kind words and I am glad that some of what I wrote resonated with you. This forum is a great, supportive place indeed.

This is a typical male response to feminine energy--- And what of the cultures where women are wearing the chadorah... or in cultures where every one is naked--- Rape and subjectation and objectifying of women still occurs... boys--- you miss the point this is about power and the misuse of power. Claiming that you are victims of your anatomy is a cop-out.

Perhaps. Or perhaps this issue, like so many others, is not a simple one and indeed has many layers and facets, power and misuse of power being only one (albeit) valid element.

This was exactly what I meant earlier about women not always understanding men's reactions to visual stimulus because they do not function in the same way. It is certainly easier to claim "it's just a cop-out" if you are not subject to the same biological functions. I would like to believe that these sexual issues are multi-layered and complex. That said, I agree with Lavazza that you must take responsibility for your actions and cannot use any mere biological "wiring" issue as an excuse for avoiding responsibility for bad behavior.

Rape and objectification of women does indeed happen in those other cultures with different modes of dress, which indicates that those issues are universal and not due solely to visual stimulus. However, that does not mean that the primal male reaction to visual sexual stimulus is not relevant, especially if you want to have a better understanding of men and the predicament we find ourselves in in Western culture with its constant parade and barrage of suggestive images.

I'm sorry if my comments moved the conversation in an "exculpatory" direction. My only intent was to expand awareness and share my perspective. I really don't think any of the posters in this thread believe male wiring is an excuse for porn addiction or mistreatment of women, only that it is part of the puzzle for why these problems are so difficult to deal with.

Perhaps I should continue to use these forums as a way to better understand the STO path from others without speaking as much. There is great wisdom in silence, but somehow I manage to forget that.

Thanks

[ayadew]

Great thread all.. thanks for your thoughts

[fairyfarmgirl]

It has been only recently that men have been held accountable for their actions... in many places male arousal is considered to be a woman's fault... It is interesting is it not... Blaming the other. In some places, "I couldn't help myself she is so__________. And that's why I did ________________. is considered to be a real reason. Once again, this is about power over another. Porn is this and Sex Magic is this. And the objectifying women is this.

As a woman my body is not for your pleasure. If I choose I share with another. It is not for you to have or take. This herein is where PORN is. The taking. Have you ever considered some of that which you watch is women who are ENSLAVED-- Sold to the highest bidder and that which you watch is a rape scene? How far of a leap is it for you to jump to kiddie Porn... oh she is only twelve I can't help myself because she is just so... fill in the blank. It's her fault for being so fill in the blank.

Do you realize the largest way station for slavery in the world is in Ohio and Misssori and North Carolina? Have you ever thought that one of those women could be your sister or child?

fairyfarmgirl

[Lavazza]

Edit: edited

[Biu_Tze]

I too feel that it is a contributing factor, but that shouldn't mean I'm any less responsible for the actions I choose to take, I do feel that some of my reactions or actions are due in some portion to what I see. Now, I am the one choosing to respond in the way I do, or did, and that is my responsibility, that's part of the challenge for us as males. To responsibly do what we feel is right in these situations, hopefully what we feel is right is a healthy balance. I think what we we're trying to say was that the visual aspect of it, can make it more difficult, not that it is less of our responsibility because it's something ingrained in us, which I do believe it is, based on my personal experience, and shared information of other men, which I can't verify to the fullest extent.
I absolutely agree, the woman body is not for the taking, or the having, it's not here to pleasure men. Part of why I dislike porn so much, is that I feel by watching these things alone, we are contributing to more and more females being put into that situation, willing or unwillingly, I feel both are very sad and unfortunate outcomes. I tend to be more sympathetic to those who are forced into it. But to willingly partake in something to me means, that.. they don't care about themselves or their fellow women, which is truly heart breaking, I would assume someone forced into it would have a greater sense of truth because of this.. I suppose this is all speculation on my part tho. I love how passionate you are about this fairy! I sense the potential for people to feel guilty about this, which In my opinion would be a good thing, to an extent, only to open their eyes to new possibilities and try to incorporate them into their belief system. I try to see all woman as my sister mother friend lover ect ect. For some reason I have in the past had a disconnect from that in terms of what I saw on the internet. It didn't seem real to me. In real life my morals are unbendable, and I hope soon that my lustful desire for porn subsides. I know I can refrain from doing it, accepting that I have these urges I can do too, but how then do I go about exploring them, without hurting anybody, myself included, (yay for me!) is another matter. Thanks so much for posting, I wish for you the best in loving those who have done so much wrong, it is something I have been trying to do for some time, I can rationalize, oh they are hurting themselves, and others, those poor ignorant creatures, but that just doesn't seem to change the way I feel about them. I'm going to have to keep exploring ways in which I can accomplish this.
Much Love -group hug-

[Monica]

WOW, Pablisimo, what an amazingly awesome, thoughtful, sensitive, and love-filled discourse! Thank you so much for sharing the male perspective with the Light of Love and Wisdom illuminating it!

I agree 100% with everything you said. In fact, when you were describing your relationship with your wife, you might have been describing my own relationship with my husband! (Except we've been at it for 27 years!)

I hope you saved that other post you wrote, and post it for us. I would love to read more of your 'long-winded' posts!

Isn't it amazing how these forums force us to look at any number of complicated issues from multiple angles, perspectives, and dimensions? It's like we don't allow ourselves, collectively, to be shallow or one dimensional about ANY issue that comes along, no matter how taboo. Well, we wanted to understand what Oneness really means, didn't we? What better way than to hear our other-selves speak from an infinite number of paths?

Very true!

That reason, I believe, lies in how men are visually triggered by sexual stimuli. This is not an idle thought, this is a topic I've pondered at great length. I also have come to believe that it is something that most women do not realize about men, and indeed have trouble initially understanding.

This is supported by both modern psychology/physiology as well as by our Confederation friends. I think it was in a Q'uo channeling in which it was stated that the initial sexual attraction had a definite purpose - to start the process of finding a mate. I don't recall whether Q'uo specified a distinction between male and female, but did specify in another channeling that those who are very physically attractive have additional challenges with catalyst related to that physical attraction.

It's common knowledge that, although both genders are aroused by visual stimuli, it's obviously stronger in males (generally speaking). What's that old saying, Women use emotions to get to sex (connect emotionally first), whereas men use sex to get to emotions (connect physically first)...women like romance before sex, whereas men use sex to find romance...something like that. Those are generalizations, of course - I don't like to stereotype - but let's face it, our hormones are different, so there is some truth to these generalizations.

my wife is the ultimate gateway to femininity. In the microcosm that is her, every facet of feminine energy and womanhood exists for me to study and take joy in. She is the Daughter, the Impish Sprite, the Mother, the wise Crone...She is the Goddess personified. When I put myself inside of her, it is like Gaia herself opens to me, and I am humbled and filled with joy.

Taoism states that the woman worships the man as god, and the man worships the woman as goddess. For more on this, see Sexual Secrets by Nik Douglas and Penny Slinger.

While I ultimately know that all women contain that exact same divinity, in my bulky 3D body with the veil in place I just cannot see it nearly so clearly as I can with my beloved wife.

It has been said (forgot who said it) that the reason we mate is to learn devotion to 1 other-self, and if we can't even do that, how can we be one with all other-selves? To start with a partner, extend that love out to family, then to strangers...it's a start.

We have made home made porn together and enjoyed it, and it doesn't feel wrong.

How could it be 'wrong' if it's your own stuff? What bothered me about my (ex-) boyfriend viewing porn was that he'd get aroused by another woman, then expect me to finish the job. That seemed adulterous to me. So it wasn't the nudity or the sex that bothered me, but the fact that he was essentially engaging in sex with someone else.

men are "wired" to be visually triggered by sexual imagery. If I see a woman in a sexually suggestive pose, or wearing very revealing clothing, I CANNOT help but react on a very primal level.

Someday I will ask our elders why they designed it like that. Along with asking about mosquitoes and cockroaches.

Seriously, I think the key word here is primal. It's clearly a lower chakra thing. But then so is physical violence, eh? I wonder if this urge will lessen as we evolve, just as we hope the urge for violence lessens.

Look at how men are more violent than women. This is a statistical fact. There are a lot more male murderers in prison than female murderers. It appears that the male force, left unchecked, tends to run downward and concentrate in the little head instead of the big head, so to speak. It all goes back to operating out of the lower chakras, whether it's violence, aggression, or lust without love.

It behooves us women to have compassion for you men, because we've all been both sexes at different times. So we women really can't get smug, being that we've been men before.

I'm glad you brought up this very important point. I don't see it as a cop-out at all, but as added understanding to help us women be more forgiving and compassionate. At the same time, I think it's important to realize that this anatomical feature is just another layer of catalyst.

Historically, how many acts of violence/domination (rapes etc.) have occurred because this primal urge was allowed free reign? Our barbaric male ancestors didn't know any better. But we do.

I would never dream of blaming my husband for noticing a pretty girl walking by. Although the primal response to visual stimuli isn't generally as strong in women, we still do have it too! I've been known to turn my head if a long-haired bodybuilder walked by! But, as my husband says, "look don't stare." At that moment of spontaneous interest or even arousal, we have a choice. We can choose to feed it, or we can choose to starve it.

We're living in a school for juvenile delinquents, who happen to also be drug addicts. There are many drugs, with loveless sex being but one of them. Being bombarded with sex in tv commercials, movies, billboards, magazines, etc. is like a heroin junkie having heroin offered on every street corner.

Why is this 3D reality this way? We created it! It's up to us to change it. It all starts with each of us, in the choices we make, moment by moment. I'm not saying it's easy. I know women might not understand what men go thru, but we have our own issues. Women struggle with eating disorders more than men, and both sexes struggle with drugs and alcoholism. It's all the same, essentially. All require recognition of the strength of the addiction, and the moment-by-moment choice to love it, accept it, forgive it, and ultimately transform it.

Primal or not, I believe that urge you describe, that automatic response to visual stimuli, is nothing more than energy being stuck in the lower chakras. Thus, it can be harnessed, channeled, and redirected. It is true that it's more difficult for men, but then again, men get to pee standing up! And women have to endure the pain of childbirth! So it all sort of balances out in the end.

Two monks were travelling from one monastery to another.. They were celibate monks, even not allowed a direct gaze at women. After long walk, they came to a river, which they had to cross. The river was flooded and there was no way that they would
get across without getting wet. One lady was also at the banks of river, wanting to cross.. Monks decided to cross the river by walking thorough the shallow part of the river, Since the lady also needed to get on the other bank, one of the monk without much ado, carried her on his shoulders, and soon they reached the other bank, where he set her down.. The lady went her way and the two monks continued their walk in silence. The other monk was really upset, finding the other monks act disturbing. As per their injunctions, they were not allowed to look at the woman, forget touching and the other monk carried her across the river!!

After some time the confused monk couldn?t stand the thought and asked other monk? "We are not allowed to look at other women, not touch them.. but you carried a woman across the river?!" The other monk had a smile on his lips when he replied "I put her down when I crossed the river, are you still carrying her?!"

There have been a few times where I had to have a long involved business conversation with an extremely attractive woman wearing very inappropriate clothing. Those times were difficult, it is so hard to concentrate and remember NOT to look at certain parts of her. Keep eyes focused, don't leer, ack pay attention to what she's saying so you can respond intelligently, etc.

Now who's being the dominating/manipulative one? It's outrageous when women intentionally act/dress provocatively in an inappropriate setting, then blame the man for reacting. To a point. On the other hand, why shouldn't women be free to look and feel sexy? Why must they cover up their sexuality? Who gets to decide what is appropriate and what isn't? And should men be expected to control their impulses and not stare? Is it sexual harassment when they haven't perfected the art of looking away, as you have?

These are difficult questions. We've all heard of those cases in which rape victims were blamed for 'tempting' the rapist by wearing shorts, etc. Say, what?? Why should a woman be victimized just for being a woman?

I don't know the answers to these questions. Why are we wired this way? All I know is that it's all catalyst.

And this isn't even porn and I'm well fulfilled sexually!

This sheds a lot of light on all those men who aren't fulfilled sexually, and have easy access to porn...many of whom started the habit at an early age, and in fact were exposed to porn before real live girls.

When I was younger, I had a neighbor who was extraordinarily beautiful. Sizzling hot and one I definitely reacted around. Well, she happened to be Muslim but did not cover her hair and wore skimpy outfits. At some point, her religious faith deepend and she started wearing a hijab (Muslim headscarf to cover the hair) and wearing very loose, modest clothing. I remember how stunned I was the first time that I saw her like that! It was as if she had been de-sexualized for me. That is, without seeing her curves or her hair, my body no longer reacted to her feminine energy due to visual triggers! ...it was certainly an odd experience seeing my wife wearing a hijab and western, but very loose desert clothes. I have to say that while there I had less sexual thoughts and cravings. My wife was still beautiful and sweet and kind and radiated love and all those other things I usually see in her....but with the visual elements of her femininity removed, I just didn't have the same subtle sexual reactions to her during the day that I usually do. In the evenings, it all would come rushing back as she uncovered her hair and changed into skimpier clothing. All of that was further confirmation for me that men just react strongly to visual sexual stimuli.

This opens up a whole 'nother issue.

What about women who aren't physically beautiful?

I'm glad you brought up the issue of men's primal urges and how difficult it is to control them. I agree that it can be helpful for women to understand that.

Likewise, I now invite you boys to stretch your mind and hearts and try to understand what it's like for us women.

Women are expected to be pretty. If you men are having a difficult time being bombarded with T&A, think about what's it like for us women, to be constantly compared to the most beautiful, the most slender, among us. Then, these already exceptionally beautiful specimens have gotten silicone in their lips, their breasts artificially enlarged to the point that they're abnormally disproportionate to their tiny waists...being models, they have access to the finest clothing and makeup...and then the photos are airbrushed to cover up any imperfections. And of course none are over age 25! Their breasts haven't started to droop yet, they don't yet have stretch marks or flabby thighs...they are, essentially, completely unrealistic.

How do you suppose that makes us 'normal' women feel? To have our men gawking at such perfect creatures? Such physical perfection that will never be achievable by most women?

And what about women who may have been beautiful in their youth, but got disfigured, whether by age, accident, illness, weight gain, etc.? What if they lost their hair to chemo, their breasts to mastectomy?

It's hard enough to live up the male ideal of physical perfection for even the prettiest among us (even models have their hangups, unbelievably), but women who weren't blessed with beauty, or who lost their beauty, have additional challenges in loving and accepting themselves.

If men could understand this, it might help them to be more sensitive to their lovers/wives/mates. I once had a boyfriend tell me he 'preferred' a certain shade of skin on a certain area of the body. ??? As if that was something I could control! It was deeply hurtful and insensitive. In contrast, my husband goes out of his way to tell me how much he loves and appreciates me, and how beautiful I am to him, even though I don't look like I did when we got married, and I certainly can no longer wear my old size 5 clothes! I know full well that I no longer turn heads the way I once did, but it doesn't matter, because I know my man appreciates me, and that's all that matters to me! But women whose men are constantly drooling over more beautiful women don't have that reassurance. I know because I experienced it, and it was really awful.

I think that if, in general, women could understand more consciously what it is like to be sexually wired in such a visual way, that they would be more compassionate and understanding of the "male dilemma"

Agreed. I think this entire discussion is very beneficial, for all of us, to have more compassion...to think about the struggles our mate has instead of just feeling hurt. By viewing the situation from our mate's perspective, it can help to climb out of that hurt and feel forgiveness.

that is positive female tolerance of the male condition not submission to degradation. Just as, in all fairness, men have to tolerate some not so evolved qualities in women.

Agreed!

if men are so naturally, powerfully attracted to visual sexual stimulus, one can certainly see how the siren call of pornography could begin to overwhelm him with addiction. What a difficult pitfall! It is essentially raw, pure, visual sexual stimuli.

Exactly!!! And that, I think, is the crux of the matter. If we could view this as an addiction, then it could be treated as such, with hope for managing it and overcoming it, just as one would any other addiction. But as long as society says, Boys will be boys, then nothing ever gets done about it.

Thank you for posting this quote.

You are quite welcome!

It was one that blew me away when I first read it. When my wife has an orgasm during sex, I have noticed this almost instant feeling as if a blanket of love and emotion descended on me. I actually feel more in touch with my feelings and connected... almost feminine. When I have an orgasm during sex, she seems to be energized. Sometimes after the glow she literally jumps up and claps her hands and says "OOoo! I love you!! Now let's go make some tea!/go for a walk/do it again" or some other such thing, while I am there, drained somewhat of physical energy but radiating love and feeling very emotional and in touch with earth.

Oh, that is so funny! My hubby and I joke about the very same thing! We call it 'being overcome by all that yin essence (or yang essence).'

When Ra explained how the energy exchange works during sex, it was like "Ahhh! So that's what's going on!". I suspect it goes even further in that it helps balance male & female energies within you. I am giving maleness and receiving femaleness, we are balancing our energies and unifying gender.

Exactly!

sex can be one-sided or masturbatory and not necessarily STS or even "just" masturbation.

I apologize for my poor choice of words in that sentence. When I said masturbation what I really meant was jerking off. Not masturbation as an act of self-love. I clarified this in a later post, that masturbation isn't necessarily 'just' confined to the lower chakras.

Sometimes, sex can be a kind of service of love from one partner to another. Oral sex is probably the best example. One partner can give it to the other as a gesture of love.. to make the other feel good and enjoy pleasure. They may not have an orgasm themselves but the whole point is to serve the partner.

Absolutely!!!

Just because sex has a HIGHER Potential to exchange energy doesn't mean that other, even baser uses of it can't still be loving and worthwhile as well.

Absolutely!!!

I believe most men have a higher sex drive than women, no doubt due in part to the constant visual sexual stimuli, and it seems unrealistic to expect every sexual interchange to result in the highest energy transfer.

I definitely agree!

IThe person doing the "giving" is performing an STO act by wanting to relieve the pressure or give pleasure to their partner, but the person receiving it is not objectifying, dominating, or masturbating in/on the other, but rather is receiving a loving service in true gratitude. While not much energy is exchanged here, I believe that overall positive polarity will increase over time for both people.

Agreed! Thank you for further clarifying what I was attempting to convey.

Well guys, sorry for the super long post.

Nothing to apologize for! You have made a lot of worthwhile and insightful comments! Thanks for sharing and I hope you share more!

---

It has been only recently that men have been held accountable for their actions... in many places male arousal is considered to be a woman's fault... It is interesting is it not... Blaming the other. In some places, "I couldn't help myself she is so__________. And that's why I did ________________. is considered to be a real reason. Once again, this is about power over another.

I touched on this in my previous post. This is so very true. How many rape victims never reported the rape because, until recently (and it still happens now, unfortunately), the woman was often blamed for 'tempting' the man...just by being a woman!

I think it's important to note, though, that, although in most cases it's the man abusing the woman, certainly there are cases in which the woman intentionally wields her own feminine power to ensnare the man. It can work both ways!

Porn is this and Sex Magic is this. And the objectifying women is this.

Can you clarify this please?

As a woman my body is not for your pleasure. If I choose I share with another. It is not for you to have or take. This herein is where PORN is. The taking. Have you ever considered some of that which you watch is women who are ENSLAVED-- Sold to the highest bidder and that which you watch is a rape scene? How far of a leap is it for you to jump to kiddie Porn... oh she is only twelve I can't help myself because she is just so... fill in the blank. It's her fault for being so fill in the blank.

Very true! That's what I meant by look at the face of the woman in the video...she is a real person! Who probably is doing this as an act of desperation...or worse, may even be enslaved.

Do you realize the largest way station for slavery in the world is in Ohio and Misssori and North Carolina? Have you ever thought that one of those women could be your sister or child?

Wow, I didn't know that! I would have thought Thailand or something...That is really disturbing.

---

Perhaps I should continue to use these forums as a way to better understand the STO path from others without speaking as much.

Please don't!!! I assure you, we can handle a bit of disagreement here! In fact, unlike all other forums I've ever participated in, Bring4th is known for our harmonious disagreement! Many of us marvel at how respectfully and politely we are able to disagree! You needn't feel that you can't voice your opinions just because someone disagrees with you! I hope that you continue to share, because you have much of value to say!

There is great wisdom in silence

True, for the person being silent. But all of us would miss out on you sharing that wisdom!

[fairyfarmgirl]

WOW, Pablisimo, what an amazingly awesome, thoughtful, sensitive, and love-filled discourse! Thank you so much for sharing the male perspective with the Light of Love and Wisdom illuminating it!

It has been only recently that men have been held accountable for their actions... in many places male arousal is considered to be a woman's fault... It is interesting is it not... Blaming the other. In some places, "I couldn't help myself she is so__________. And that's why I did ________________. is considered to be a real reason. Once again, this is about power over another.

I touched on this in my previous post. This is so very true. How many rape victims never reported the rape because, until recently (and it still happens now, unfortunately), the woman was often blamed for 'tempting' the man...just by being a woman!

I think it's important to note, though, that, although in most cases it's the man abusing the woman, certainly there are cases in which the woman intentionally wields her own feminine power to ensnare the man. It can work both ways!

Porn is this and Sex Magic is this. And the objectifying women is this.

Can you clarify this please?

Do you realize the largest way station for slavery in the world is in Ohio and Misssori and North Carolina? Have you ever thought that one of those women could be your sister or child?

Wow, I didn't know that! I would have thought Thailand or something...That is really disturbing.

---

Good Greetings Pablisimo and Monica and All:

Pablisimo, I would like to clarify that your post was informative and expanding. I would like to apologize for my passionate responses. Please do post! Your views are as valid as mine are... it is only through dialogue and discourse and the sharing of our stories that we grow!

I am learning/teaching and teaching/learning as I am sure many others are as well! I thank you for your post... I am learning. It provided me with the cataylst to work on some stuff that needed working on... Thank you.

Monica:

Porn is this and Sex Magic is this. And the objectifying women is this.

I meant in the context of misuse of power. When a person is objectifyed-- personhood is denied. Some much harm is done to another and self when a sentient being is objectified... This is what happens in Porn... the woman ceases to be a Human Being and is instead an object... an object to be viewed and used as such. The thought... that this is a person ceases to enter in the picture... and thus the object then becomes "owned." When personhood is denied another and the person is then an object and "owned"--- one justifies doing whatever one wants to the object... This is where goodness is suspended and a whole host of unfortunate events for the object begins. This is what I meant by objectifying... In STS sex magic the same things occurs... personhood is denied to the object which is considered to be a slave... do as one wants to with a slave. This is what happens when one watches porn... the objectifying of women and the denying of personhood becomes imprinted in the mind... The mind begins to rationalize the "okayness" of objectifying and denying personhood to the woman who is now an object and consider almost "not real."

These of course are my views... All views in the One are valid. And with the consideration of all views understanding and healing occurs. This is my take on this at least.

click here for links concerning the robust Human Trafficking Slave trade in the USA and World. Thailand has less trafficking than Cambodia and India.

Here are some links concerning Human Trafficking in USA for the robust Slave Trade here in the land of the Emancipated.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28161210/

and here http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/USA.htm and here http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...human.html
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/18/dome...in_america
http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/...naway_kids
http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/getdo...unaways-in-

MO-- http://traffickingproject.blogspot.com/2...souri.html
http://www.themaneater.com/stories/2009/...afficking/

NC http://www.examiner.com/x-7403-Tampa-Cri...king-video

http://www.wbtv.com/global/story.asp?s=11828239


Porn and Human Trafficking... Great Articles about all those "free" images being discussed.

http://humantraffickingwatch.com/portal/...pologists/
http://www.alternet.org/rights/63791/
http://www.restorenyc.org/?cat=4

These are enough links to show the correlation between porn and human trafficking. This is of course my take on the subject along with many other people..

fairyfarmgirl




fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

I meant in the context of misuse of power. When a person is objectifyed-- personhood is denied. Some much harm is done to another and self when a sentient being is objectified... This is what happens in Porn... the woman ceases to be a Human Being and is instead an object... an object to be viewed and used as such.

Thanks for the clarification! And thanks for distinguishing between STS sex magick and STO sex magick.

I agree 100% with your comments. When I was with that boyfriend who was addicted to porn, it was a really big issue to me. (I used to tear out all the centerfolds in his Playboy mags, since he said he bought the mags 'for the articles.) But I never understood why. I just knew that it made me sick deep down, just sick. Now I understand why I felt that way. He of course accused me of being possessive and jealous.

I realize now that I wasn't really a person to him either. I existed to please him. Significantly, his dad was a porn addict too.

I know that many otherwise spiritual men struggle with this issue. This thread is helping me to have more compassion for men in general. What made it difficult for me to feel compassion for men before was that it's so common for men to laugh at their wives for being upset about their porn. The prevailing attitude in our culture is Boys will be boys and women who have a problem with it are often considered uptight.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Through Understanding--- Wisdom is Synthesized creating space for Compassion.

fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

Part of why I dislike porn so much, is that I feel by watching these things alone, we are contributing to more and more females being put into that situation, willing or unwillingly, I feel both are very sad and unfortunate outcomes. I tend to be more sympathetic to those who are forced into it. But to willingly partake in something to me means, that.. they don't care about themselves or their fellow women, which is truly heart breaking,

It's difficult to ascertain the depth of feelings of an other-self. There are many women participating in these actions who, on the surface, seem totally ok with it. These women might argue that it's their body and no one was hurt, so it's no one's business but theirs. Whether anyone was hurt is of course debatable, but it is true that it's their body and their choice to participate in porn/stripping/whatever.

Are these women truly unhappy and even desperate, even though they're smiling on the surface? Surely many of them are. But we can't really know. That's like saying that anyone who is single and having a lot of one-night-stands is really unhappy. It's not really our place to judge them. All we can do is speculate that they might actually feel empty inside, and have compassion for them, but, as with every other human condition, that's where they're at.

However, we can choose to not participate, just as we can choose to not give drugs to a junkie. The fact is that when you are watching some woman in a porn flick, you really don't know anything about her. You don't know if she is enjoying herself and happy with her choice, or if she is in very desperate circumstances or even in bondage. Certainly, if it's a child, that's a given that she is being abused. But in the case of an adult, maybe she is being abused and maybe she isn't. You just don't know.

When porn was an issue for me when I was with that boyfriend, I used to have resentment towards the women who engaged in porn or worked at the strip clubs (many of which are actually places of prostitution). I felt that they were being seductive to men whom they knew were married or in relationships, and I considered that heinous. I mean, if a woman in an office blatantly tries to seduce her married boss, we consider that rather scummy, right? So how is this any different?

Interestingly, one of my best friends from my partying days became a 'high-class' [sic] prostitute. She was very selective and only had about 6 men she serviced. I felt judgement towards her, because the men were married. Yet, at the same time, I knew her very well and I knew how lonely and emotionally messed up she was. She told me that men had used her body so many times, she might as well get paid for it. Knowing how empty her life was helped me to feel compassion for her instead of judgement. She is now in her 50s and still alone, bedridden from illness caused by all the drugs and the breast implants. She had so much beauty in her but her life was destroyed by her belief that she had to please men. The reason she got the implants was because so many men laughed at her small breasts. And she was physically very beautiful! Unbelievable that anyone would laugh at her! Very sad. Yet, on the surface 20 years ago, you would never have guessed how miserable she was inside. She was the ultimate party girl! But I knew better because she confided in me.

On the other hand, I had another friend, not a close friend, who was a stripper. She seemed to have absolutely no issues with it at all, except that she was annoyed that some of the girls at the strip club were engaging in prostitution in the back room of the club. She was very indignant about it because it gave them an unfair advantage over the girls who just stripped. They got more tips. She said she had boundaries so would not do that. But other than that, my impression of her was that she wasn't even aware enough to question her lifestyle at all.

I guess my point here is that we really don't know the person inside that body, so assessing their level of abuse (or not) might not be the most effective way to determine whether or not to support their situation by participating in it.

I sense the potential for people to feel guilty about this, which In my opinion would be a good thing, to an extent, only to open their eyes to new possibilities and try to incorporate them into their belief system.

It's fashionable in some New Age circles to 'not be into guilt.' But I think a distinction can be made between healthy reflection and remorse resulting in forgiveness and a change in behavior, vs. carrying the burden of guilt long past the time when it was useful. The purpose of guilt is to alert us that something we did needs to be addressed and reflected upon. Once we do that, make any changes in our thinking or behavior we want to make, and forgive ourselves, then the guilt has served its purpose and can be let go, to be replaced by forgiveness.

I have in the past had a disconnect from that in terms of what I saw on the internet. It didn't seem real to me.

Exactly! The question is: Why is that?

I know I can refrain from doing it, accepting that I have these urges I can do too, but how then do I go about exploring them, without hurting anybody, myself included,

Q'uo has stated that it's healthy to explore our desires in a harmless way. But how to do that when it is potentially hurting someone? That's not harmless. Other people are involved here.

Suggestion: This is just an idea, but have any of you men ever thought about getting involved in some sort of outreach for abused women, some sort of volunteer work, or something like that? Maybe if you were to get to know some of these women, hear their stories, it might help to see the whole issue differently. What had been a self-serving act or even an addiction might be transformed into an act of service.

[Pablísimo]

WOW, Pablisimo, what an amazingly awesome, thoughtful, sensitive, and love-filled discourse! Thank you so much for sharing the male perspective with the Light of Love and Wisdom illuminating it!

Hi Monica. Thank you for the warm, kind words!! I'm really glad you appreciated the post, because I regretted posting it, initially.

For some reason, I really felt compelled to share it with you specifically. When I read your earlier long post, it felt like you were being very real and were trying to explain your perspective on an issue you had obviously done a great deal of soul-searching about. As I said earlier, porn for me was never really much of a big issue. I wrote it off as a silly thing to think about, obsess over, or argue about, but I realize now after reading this thread that I should have contemplated it much more deeply. Over the years, I have given a great deal of thought to the visual wiring of men and the catalyst that this brings with it. I had a few conversations with women on related topics over the years, but never, ever heard a balanced, nuanced feminine perspective from anyone. I also never really shared my own male views clearly.

So, even though the topic was not personally important to me, the perspective you shared was incredibly feminine, insightful, and non-judgmental and it forced me to think about the topic in a way that was alien to me, but mind-expanding. I thought to myself, now here is a female who is trying to SHARE her perspective and EXPLAIN what and why she feels in a non-accusatory fashion and with a Law of One grounding to boot.

This led me to contemplate these incredible forums and reflect on how difficult it must have been for Biu & Lavazzo to share their stories and how each subsequent post just added to the overall Gestalt picture that was forming of the topic. I began to feel Oneness and kinship with all of these great souls sharing their Light and perspectives. It forced me to think about things that are not deeply personally relevant, but yet view it from a variety of angles and perspectives. We can learn so much more when we see it through so many eyes. I was overwhelmed with the idea that this must be a tiny glimpse into how a social memory complex grows in the early stages of harmonization. I guess I felt like I was communing with my people, if that makes sense.

Because I have thought so hard on the visual stimuli topic and felt it was part of the key to understanding porn addiction, and male reactions in general, I thought it could help those struggling with porn (and those affected by it) with more compassion for self and others. Understanding is the ultimate key to forgiveness, in my view. That made me want to share my thoughts, but what pushed me to register for an account and actually post was your sharing. I thought to myself that if we had a woman here so willing to share an honest, open female perspective that I almost had a DUTY to reciprocate and share what I hoped to be its male counterpart.

Taoism states that the woman worships the man as god, and the man worships the woman as goddess. For more on this, see Sexual Secrets by Nik Douglas and Penny Slinger.

Interesting concept. I have read the Tao Te Ching but I must've overlooked the topics dealing with sexuality. I will check out that book, thank you for the recommendation.

It has been said (forgot who said it) that the reason we mate is to learn devotion to 1 other-self, and if we can't even do that, how can we be one with all other-selves? To start with a partner, extend that love out to family, then to strangers...it's a start.

Oh how true!!

How could it be 'wrong' if it's your own stuff? What bothered me about my (ex-) boyfriend viewing porn was that he'd get aroused by another woman, then expect me to finish the job. That seemed adulterous to me. So it wasn't the nudity or the sex that bothered me, but the fact that he was essentially engaging in sex with someone else.

You know, I see your point, I really do. I have heard friends have arguments with their mates about this topic, but thought it was jealousy-based since, as far as I was concerned, men couldn't help being turned on by attractive women due to visual wiring but they COULD control whether to be faithful or not, to act on their urges. I really just never thought of it like mental adultery before and a violation of intimacy. Thank you for sharing that insight.

Seriously, I think the key word here is primal. It's clearly a lower chakra thing. But then so is physical violence, eh? I wonder if this urge will lessen as we evolve, just as we hope the urge for violence lessens.

I agree with you that it is indeed primal. I find it, like so many other things about 3d life to be a pitfall on the one hand but a possible vehicle for further growth on the other. Ah, the paradox of this existence.

Someday I will ask our elders why they designed it like that. Along with asking about mosquitoes and cockroaches.

In my own particular path, I've experienced an unusually large amount of catalyst involving the animal kingdom. Including cockroaches & mosquitoes, interestingly enough! Maybe I'll mention some of it the next time an animal or vegetarian type topic comes up.

I'm glad you brought up this very important point. I don't see it as a cop-out at all, but as added understanding to help us women be more forgiving and compassionate. At the same time, I think it's important to realize that this anatomical feature is just another layer of catalyst.

It makes me feel so good that you received the point in the light I intended it. And I agree it is just another layer of catalyst, for BOTH sexes.

I would never dream of blaming my husband for noticing a pretty girl walking by. Although the primal response to visual stimuli isn't generally as strong in women, we still do have it too! I've been known to turn my head if a long-haired bodybuilder walked by! But, as my husband says, "look don't stare." At that moment of spontaneous interest or even arousal, we have a choice. We can choose to feed it, or we can choose to starve it.

That is the key: we have a choice on whether to feed that lower chakra, primal urge or balance the feelings and elevate ourselves.

I remember having an argument with a close female relative years ago while walking through a store. She was extremely attractive and wearing fishnet sockings, a micro mini skirt, and a low cut, partially see-through tanktop (she was well endowed). She gestured to some guys drooling at her and leering and said "You see what I mean, men are such utter pigs and so disrespectful all the time!". I argued that perhaps if she didn't advertise her wares so loudly that she would attract less attention. She made the (valid) point that she should be able to wear whatever she likes and feel sexy -- it is not her problem if men can't control themselves. While I agreed with her on her rights, I felt angry that she just could not see how dressing in a provocative way made the nice guys uncomfortable and brought out the worst in the not so nice guys. My basic, unevolved view of it was "Either stop dressing like a slut or stop complaining about how crass men are!".

I realize that thoughts like those are a slippery slope to what you were talking about with some men using a woman's appearance as a way to JUSTIFY rape. Like she was asking for it or something, which is clearly insane. But yet I can't help but feel that there is some basic validity to the thought that an enlightened woman should at least be mindful of the way men are visually wired and make some practical adjustments.

We're living in a school for juvenile delinquents, who happen to also be drug addicts. There are many drugs, with loveless sex being but one of them. Being bombarded with sex in tv commercials, movies, billboards, magazines, etc. is like a heroin junkie having heroin offered on every street corner.

That is a good way to put it. I lived in a house with a bunch of college-age males when I was about 14-16 and some of my roommates would actually sit around and watch porn regularly. I never really joined in because I saw it as nothing but frustration. Why would I want to allow myself to get all worked up and hot and bothered when I wasn't in an appropriate setting and had no partner? That would just leave me unfulfilled and craving. I preferred to save my passion for actual women at appropriate times and I couldn't really see why these guys who I knew had sexual relationships would waste their time and energy watching dirty videos. I mean, I was interested in light pornography before I started having relationships with real girls, but after I started dating, I completely lost interest in it. It honestly never occurred to me that these guys had an addiction. I think I actually might have been doing that "boys will be boys" thing and shaking my head just like some women do instead of recognizing it for what it was.

[i]Two monks were travelling from one monastery to another.. They were celibate monks, even not allowed a direct gaze at women. After long walk, they came to a river, which they had to cross. The river was flooded and there was no way that they would
get across without getting wet. One lady was also at the banks of river, wanting to cross.. Monks decided to cross the river by walking thorough the shallow part of the river, Since the lady also needed to get on the other bank, one of the monk without much ado, carried her on his shoulders, and soon they reached the other bank, where he set her down.. The lady went her way and the two monks continued their walk in silence. The other monk was really upset, finding the other monks act disturbing. As per their injunctions, they were not allowed to look at the woman, forget touching and the other monk carried her across the river!!

After some time the confused monk couldn?t stand the thought and asked other monk? "We are not allowed to look at other women, not touch them.. but you carried a woman across the river?!" The other monk had a smile on his lips when he replied "I put her down when I crossed the river, are you still carrying her?!"

How insightful!! Great story!!!!

Now who's being the dominating/manipulative one? It's outrageous when women intentionally act/dress provocatively in an inappropriate setting, then blame the man for reacting. To a point. On the other hand, why shouldn't women be free to look and feel sexy? Why must they cover up their sexuality? Who gets to decide what is appropriate and what isn't? And should men be expected to control their impulses and not stare? Is it sexual harassment when they haven't perfected the art of looking away, as you have?

These are difficult questions. We've all heard of those cases in which rape victims were blamed for 'tempting' the rapist by wearing shorts, etc. Say, what?? Why should a woman be victimized just for being a woman? I don't know the answers to these questions. Why are we wired this way? All I know is that it's all catalyst.

These statements nicely encapsulate the complexity of the situation. It's just not black and white, or simple. This is a nuanced, complex topic and going to extremes either direction is not the solution.

"All I know is that it's all catalyst. "
.... I'll raise my cup to that!

Likewise, I now invite you boys to stretch your mind and hearts and try to understand what it's like for us women.

Women are expected to be pretty. If you men are having a difficult time being bombarded with T&A, think about what's it like for us women, to be constantly compared to the most beautiful, the most slender, among us. Then, these already exceptionally beautiful specimens have gotten silicone in their lips, their breasts artificially enlarged to the point that they're abnormally disproportionate to their tiny waists...being models, they have access to the finest clothing and makeup...and then the photos are airbrushed to cover up any imperfections. And of course none are over age 25! Their breasts haven't started to droop yet, they don't yet have stretch marks or flabby thighs...they are, essentially, completely unrealistic.

How do you suppose that makes us 'normal' women feel? To have our men gawking at such perfect creatures? Such physical perfection that will never be achievable by most women?

And what about women who may have been beautiful in their youth, but got disfigured, whether by age, accident, illness, weight gain, etc.? What if they lost their hair to chemo, their breasts to mastectomy?

It's hard enough to live up the male ideal of physical perfection for even the prettiest among us (even models have their hangups, unbelievably), but women who weren't blessed with beauty, or who lost their beauty, have additional challenges in loving and accepting themselves.

If men could understand this, it might help them to be more sensitive to their lovers/wives/mates. I once had a boyfriend tell me he 'preferred' a certain shade of skin on a certain area of the body. ??? As if that was something I could control! It was deeply hurtful and insensitive. In contrast, my husband goes out of his way to tell me how much he loves and appreciates me, and how beautiful I am to him, even though I don't look like I did when we got married, and I certainly can no longer wear my old size 5 clothes! I know full well that I no longer turn heads the way I once did, but it doesn't matter, because I know my man appreciates me, and that's all that matters to me! But women whose men are constantly drooling over more beautiful women don't have that reassurance. I know because I experienced it, and it was really awful.

Monica, thank you once again for this awesome female insight. I never heard the female dilemma explained so clearly. I will have to meditate on this at length.

About 6-7 years ago, quite out of the blue, my wife mentioned to me that she would be willing to get breast implants for me. It shocked me to the core and I had an extremely negative reaction to the suggestion. She and I were friends before becoming lovers and she knew that I used to have a preference for larger breasts, which she reminded me of. While that was technically true, love changes everything. I am (and was) so completely in love with her that she was perfect to me in every way. I didn't and don't wish to change a thing about her physically. And I certainly would never want her to subject herself to something so bad for her health for something so utterly shallow!! I never said anything negative to her about her body and I was a little hurt that she obviously didn't realize how much I adored her and thought that I could be so shallow.

That last bit of your post helped me realize it probably wasn't so much knowing about my old preference that caused her to have those feelings of doubt and inadequacy, it was most likely the same bombardment of sexual imagery and objectification of women that we are blasted with on a daily basis. It may affect me visually but likely affects her emotionally on some level. I spent so much time thinking about that topic..that maybe I wasn't reassuring her enough, that perhaps I had made some idle comment that I couldn't even remember. I never stopped to think about the impact of the physical ideals women are subliminally programmed to live up to in our society. Maybe it had more to do with THAT than anything else. It was such a bizarre thing to come up, I just didn't know what to think. Thank you for sharing that perspective, it is mind-expanding.

I must say again that true love dissolves the physical issues. My wife is 14 years older than me and when we first started dating, she told me she was worried I would look over at her one day and realize just how old she has become and be upset at the mistake I'd made.

Ha! This woman has become more and more and more beautiful to me as the years have gone by. Yes, she ages, but our love has become so intense that she seems more and more perfect, inside and out with every passing year. I'm far more attracted to her now than I was 13 years ago!!

I looked at her just the other day and the sunlight glinted off of a few gray strands of her otherwise dark hair. I imagined her with a full head of silver hair and thought to myself how beautiful that would look on her. In that instant, I realized that she would continue to be my goddess no matter how old she became or how her body changed. I think love transcends physicality. I know, she will one day be a very beautiful "old lady" and I will be proud to stand at her side.

Regardless of one's real attractiveness, a loving committed relationship blinds us to our mate's physical flaws and amplifies their inner and outer beauty.

Agreed. I think this entire discussion is very beneficial, for all of us, to have more compassion...to think about the struggles our mate has instead of just feeling hurt. By viewing the situation from our mate's perspective, it can help to climb out of that hurt and feel forgiveness.

Very well said!!

...........................

Fairyfarmgirl,

Thank you for posting those links!! I read them all, carefully. I honestly had no idea that human trafficking was such a big issue in this day and age. Furthermore, you made me realize the STS aspects of many kinds of pornography. I do believe that some pornography is relatively harmless and that not all women are exploited who participate in it, but the facts are undeniable that some, and probably a large percentage, of pornography is being made with women who are enslaved, whether that is physically or economically.

I clearly was not looking at the pornography topic deep enough. I was thinking about the cheescake girls in the magazines and the bits and pieces of hardcore porn I have seen over the years. Well, there's clearly a whole spectrum of porn and some of the extreme fetish and rape porn borders on the demonic. You are right to feel strongly on this issue, and I deeply thank you for opening my eyes.

I felt bad initially about posting because I thought that I had inadvertently provided an "excuse" for why men like porn and that it infuriated and hurt you, which was not my intent at all. I see you have a more balanced view after all. The only thing else I would say is to urge compassion for those struggling with this addiction. I believe that the addiction itself is a somewhat separate issue to the exploitation the women in some of these films have suffered. I think that your posts in this thread are helpful, if strong. Biu & Lava wouldn't have posted so much on this topic if they didn't clearly want to come to terms with and overcome their addiction.

Nobody argues that crack cocaine is not inherently bad, but the users are victims too and I cannot help but feel compassion for those struggling with addiction. I can't help but see pornography in a similar light.

I have been addicted only one time in my life - to nicotine. There was a time when I was not in control of my use of this substance and felt very powerless. I finally broke that addiction but have never forgotten how powerful it was. When I catch myself being judgmental about addicts of all stripes, I always try to think about what my life would have been like if my 5 year struggle with addiction had been with a substance that hurt others too, like crack or, well, pornography. Let compassion and understanding rein in our hearts, let us support and uphold our brothers (and sisters) struggling with addiction. Never excusing but always forgiving.

Again, thank you for the links and for helping me to experience and contemplate this issue more deeply.

Love to all!

[Steppingfeet]

Dear friends,

When I was first alerted to this thread’s existence, I felt a certain apprehension while reading Biu_Tze’s initial post that sparked this discussion. The issues Biu’s raises are ripe for mishandling, hurt feelings, heated arguments, and moderator headaches. Though I have such faith in the capacity of this group to work together in harmony in a spirit of mutual trust, I was honestly concerned about this particular thread going sour.

Having just concluded reading this thread, I stand in admiration and awe that each of you can be so open and honest on such difficult subject matter without losing sight of the Creator. In lesser hands, this thread may have been a mess. In your hands, I come away from this thread feeling enriched by the distilled synthesis of your own experience and enlightened by the beautiful gems each of you have mined from places far below a surface which many entities never penetrate.

Please note that by “lesser” I do not mean to separate or to classify people according to worthiness, I only attempt to qualify why I feel that what is happening here is exceptional. Thank you Biu_Tze, Lavazza, Monica, Peregrinus, Pablisimo, Fairyfarmgirl, and others for this fantastic thread! Thank you for your courage and your compassion, your sensitivity and wisdom. If I kept a journal of quotes, I would have written down numerous excerpts from each of your posts.

Pablisimo, you summed up my experience of this thread better than I could have in the following two paragraphs, each made in a separate post:

Isn't it amazing how these forums force us to look at any number of complicated issues from multiple angles, perspectives, and dimensions? It's like we don't allow ourselves, collectively, to be shallow or one dimensional about ANY issue that comes along, no matter how taboo. Well, we wanted to understand what Oneness really means, didn't we? What better way than to hear our other-selves speak from an infinite number of paths? I mean, look at Biu Tze's fearless, heartfelt, and troubled first post that brought us all into public contemplation of pornography and related addiction. And Lavazza's very personal chronicle of addiction and technology that enhanced our contemplation further, or Monica's incredibly insightful post on sexual energy exchange and pornography that I would wager jarred most of the male readers. Not to mention all the shorter comments and thoughts from all our brethren, heck even my own musings. Surely this must be a preview of the learnings that social memory complexes experience!!! We are living in the baby stages of 4d consciousness right now, I think.

This led me to contemplate these incredible forums and reflect on how difficult it must have been for Biu & Lavazzo to share their stories and how each subsequent post just added to the overall Gestalt picture that was forming of the topic. I began to feel Oneness and kinship with all of these great souls sharing their Light and perspectives. It forced me to think about things that are not deeply personally relevant, but yet view it from a variety of angles and perspectives. We can learn so much more when we see it through so many eyes. I was overwhelmed with the idea that this must be a tiny glimpse into how a social memory complex grows in the early stages of harmonization. I guess I felt like I was communing with my people, if that makes sense.

I so embrace the consciously merging with you fellow seekers in resplendent, joyful oneness. As it is, you blow my mind with a keyboard! To know oneness with you would be a never-ending joy.

Yours, GLB

PS: Thank you, ML, for pointing this thread out to me. : )

[thefool]

I am so thankful for this discussion. It provides great healing opportunities for all. Sexual healing and wholeness is hardest to achieve in the current social and physiological setup. Also in my opinion it is the most critical for the spiritual growth. The sexual programming is deeply seated and any provocation causes intense trigger. It is also true that we spend an enormous amount of our time and energy in projecting and dealing with the sexual energies. The whole sexual issue is clouded with the guilt and taboos.

What is an addiction? How would you measure a sexual addiction? What is normal, if any? In my opinion the addiction is automated scripted response that is out of control. It is a program that feeds on itself. The original reason for the activity is long gone and now there is only soulless repetitions.

So how do we break out of this? I would like to say that suppression is not the answer. Sexual energy is a powerful primal force and you would be destroyed inside out if you try to put a lid on it. I personally have not found an answer. I am playing with some concepts but the programming is so deep that nothing seems to work. I personally feel attracted to different women based upon the stimulus provided. I can even intuitively sense the one sending unconscious sexual signals. They probably feel similarly trapped too, pulled from different sources. Several years ago, I lived out all of my man fantasies with a willing partner. She had her own fantasies. We intentionally experimented with all kinds of stuff. Nothing was a taboo. It went on for a couple of years. After that I feel less pulled sexually and more rested in myself but not completely.

Generally speaking, I think men are so naturally polygamous. While women are generally monogamous. On a very fundamental level, men are interested in spreading their seeds so to speak. While women has to carry the burden of living with the consequences. Of carrying a baby and taking care of it. That is why women are more interesting in settling down and starting and raising a family while men in general could care less. They get interested in a family because of their interest in this woman and possibility of steady satisfaction of their sexual needs. Feel free to comment on it as I would like to hear all perspectives on this.

There are other social taboos to consider. Once you get married or dating someone exclusively then you are expected to be 100% devoted to each other. You hear things like- 'I should be enough for him'. That is fine but can someone be enough for another all the time? that is a pretty tall order in this fickle world or constantly changing forms. Then there are romantic stories that always end with- 'And they lived happily ever after'. Yea right!!! I am not surprised that there is insatiable appetite for stars love life and break-ups and all the gory details. People are not happy with their situations and they take solace in the fact that even those silver screen supermen and superwomen are also experiencing the same thing as they are. I am not surprised by a very very high divorce rate. The expectation we place on ourselves being the best and perfect couple living a dream life with always in love and not even a though about another. that is a tall order and when rubber meets the road those Cinderella slippers don't take you very far. I have not checked the stats on this but I believe the second marriages are hugely successful compared to the first only because people are more realistic and less dreamy after the first break-up.

As far as porn is concerned, I think we are discussing it like a monolith. Stereotyping the actors and viewers. It is such a huge industry (about 14 Billion USD, just did a quick google) with multiple players and styles and viewership. There is no doubt a huge chunk of porn that is just pure evil and negative and plain wrong. But I personally like to think some of the porn very beneficial for the psychological health of humanity. There is so much sexual stimulus thrown at your way and there is so much suppressive message from the religion and other well intentioned folks. There has to be some safe outlet for the men. A healthy porn provides that clean and safe outlet for the repressed men. No wonder they say that prostitution is the oldest profession. These conflicts are not new they are deeply seated in men mind.

These are just my thoughts and observations of the society in general. There are honorable exceptions for sure. I believe we each have to find the answers in our own lives and what works for you.

But it all starts with being honest with yourself and laying it all out there. I believe this thread is playing a role with that healing process of observing and accepting yourself and others...

[Peregrinus]

As I was out today, every now and then a beautiful woman would walk by, and I had to remind myself to stop thinking in my red ray lol.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Beauty and Love are rarely addictive--- it it the possession of Beauty and Love that are addictive.

Sexually explicit beautiful films showing an adult male and an adult female LOVING each other in an empowering way to both partners is a different genre all together.

fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

Hi Monica. Thank you for the warm, kind words!! I'm really glad you appreciated the post, because I regretted posting it, initially.

You're quite welcome! Funny, I too hesitated about posting, and wondered how my words would be received.

For some reason, I really felt compelled to share it with you specifically. When I read your earlier long post, it felt like you were being very real and were trying to explain your perspective on an issue you had obviously done a great deal of soul-searching about.

Thank you! I'm so glad you did! Yes this is an issue that caused me a great deal of pain many years ago, and something I have had to work thru.

As I said earlier, porn for me was never really much of a big issue. I wrote it off as a silly thing to think about, obsess over, or argue about, but I realize now after reading this thread that I should have contemplated it much more deeply.

I'm so glad you found value in this thread! Thanks again to Biu_Tze for having the courage to start such a potentially volatile discussion! And thanks to everyone for their contributions! I agree with Gary that this is awe-inspiring, how we have all been able to share on such a deep and loving level.

Over the years, I have given a great deal of thought to the visual wiring of men and the catalyst that this brings with it. I had a few conversations with women on related topics over the years, but never, ever heard a balanced, nuanced feminine perspective from anyone. I also never really shared my own male views clearly.

It seems that this is one of those things that people just aren't really questioning. In our society, it's sort of accepted that Boys will be boys and women generally don't like it but seem to either accept it (If you can't beat 'em join 'em) or are unreasonably jealous and judgemental about it (going ballistic upon finding a girlie mag under the bed).

I was 18-21 when I was the boyfriend who had the addiction. He had a huge collection of magazines - 100's of them. (This was before we had an internet.) And he frequented the strip clubs. I bounced from one extreme (trying to suck it up and join in) to the other (going ballistic and tearing up his magazines). Neither worked. Never once did he ever acknowledge that I had any justification whatsoever for my feelings. My feelings were invalid, ridiculous, something to be laughed at. Even if he agreed to not go to the strip clubs for awhile, in the company of other men I was the silly, jealous girlfriend, and the jokes flew about how men tell their women whatever they want to hear, just to keep the peace, but as soon as they men got together in their male wolf packs, women became objects to be laughed at.

I was expected to accept that he became another person while in the company of other men. He explained to me how important it was for men to bond with other men, and going to strip clubs was an important way for them to do that. He assured me that the strippers weren't really people, but just entertainment. He told me that I shouldn't be jealous because he would come home to me.

At the time, I sought help from other women. But, being young, my friends certainly weren't any help. I read the advice columns in which the advice was always the same: Don't make a big deal out of your man's porn habits or you'll lose him. Be ready and willing to have sex at any moment, if you want to keep your man. It's ok for your man to look as long as he doesn't touch.

The prevalent attitude among most women I knew was that this was something they didn't dare mess with. To take on the male obsession with porn was an insurmountable task, something doomed to failure. Any woman who didn't understand that was stupid and destined to lose her man and it would be her fault for being so possessive. After all, everyone knows that Boys will be boys, right?

This was the mentality I was dealing with, and I wasn't mature enough or confident enough at the time to trust my own feelings or guidance.

Later, I became a born-again Christian for awhile. Finally, I met people who agreed with me! But they were overly simplistic in their assessment: Porn was from the pit of hell. But these same people also said that premarital sex with someone you actually love was also sinful, and I vehemently disagreed with that!!! So I didn't quite fit in with their mindset either. They oversimplified the issue and failed miserably in their efforts to neuter their men.

I didn't agree with them that men should be neutered. I want my man fully functional, but channeling those urges instead of being controlled by them!

Interestingly, a few years ago one of my Christian friends confided in me that her husband struggled with porn. One day he was at the adult video store and ran into his pastor. He was extremely indignant! What was the pastor doing in a place like this?? But then he realized the obvious: What was he doing in a place like this? That experience affected him deeply and he was able to let go of it afterwards, to my friend's delight.

So, even though the topic was not personally important to me, the perspective you shared was incredibly feminine, insightful, and non-judgmental and it forced me to think about the topic in a way that was alien to me, but mind-expanding. I thought to myself, now here is a female who is trying to SHARE her perspective and EXPLAIN what and why she feels in a non-accusatory fashion and with a Law of One grounding to boot.

Whew! That was a tough one and I'm glad to hear I somehow managed to pull it off!

This led me to contemplate these incredible forums and reflect on how difficult it must have been for Biu & Lavazzo to share their stories and how each subsequent post just added to the overall Gestalt picture that was forming of the topic. I began to feel Oneness and kinship with all of these great souls sharing their Light and perspectives.

Agreed!

It forced me to think about things that are not deeply personally relevant, but yet view it from a variety of angles and perspectives.

That's what compassion is all about!

We can learn so much more when we see it through so many eyes. I was overwhelmed with the idea that this must be a tiny glimpse into how a social memory complex grows in the early stages of harmonization. I guess I felt like I was communing with my people, if that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense and that thought has been expressed many times on this forum - that we are building a SMC here.

Because I have thought so hard on the visual stimuli topic and felt it was part of the key to understanding porn addiction, and male reactions in general, I thought it could help those struggling with porn (and those affected by it) with more compassion for self and others.

Definitely! I found your comments incredibly loving and insightful, and I'm really glad you shared your views.

Understanding is the ultimate key to forgiveness, in my view.

I would say that it can be a key, thus making forgiveness easier to accomplish, but in many cases we don't have the luxury of understanding. Understanding is not of this density, so if we have it, that's great, but many times we don't have it, and in those cases, making the choice to forgive first, before we have understanding, is powerful indeed. To choose to forgive someone when you really disagree with them and don't have a clue why they did what they did...can in turn unlock the key to understanding! So it can work both ways!

That made me want to share my thoughts, but what pushed me to register for an account and actually post was your sharing. I thought to myself that if we had a woman here so willing to share an honest, open female perspective that I almost had a DUTY to reciprocate and share what I hoped to be its male counterpart.

Well I am so glad you did! I hope you stick around and continue to participate! We have many threads in which equally deep topics are explored.

You know, I see your point, I really do. I have heard friends have arguments with their mates about this topic, but thought it was jealousy-based since, as far as I was concerned, men couldn't help being turned on by attractive women due to visual wiring but they COULD control whether to be faithful or not, to act on their urges. I really just never thought of it like mental adultery before and a violation of intimacy. Thank you for sharing that insight.

It has to do with whether they feed it or not. Being momentarily turned on by a pretty woman walking by is harmless and normal, but no man ever got girlie mags dropped on his head by the tooth fairy! I doubt that men are ever forced to walk into a strip club. They could always choose to walk out. And, it's easy to block porn pop-ups with today's sophisticated browser software. To spontaneously turn his head when the woman walks by is innocent. To make the conscious choice to watch porn is...intentional. And that is the difference. I'm not saying this choice is easy. But it is a choice.

I agree with you that it is indeed primal. I find it, like so many other things about 3d life to be a pitfall on the one hand but a possible vehicle for further growth on the other. Ah, the paradox of this existence.

That's catalyst!

In my own particular path, I've experienced an unusually large amount of catalyst involving the animal kingdom. Including cockroaches & mosquitoes, interestingly enough! Maybe I'll mention some of it the next time an animal or vegetarian type topic comes up.

We already have a couple of threads exploring the vegetarian issue, but I don't think we have any dealing with animal catalyst specifically. Please feel free to start a new thread to explore this topic if you like!

It makes me feel so good that you received the point in the light I intended it. And I agree it is just another layer of catalyst, for BOTH sexes.

Definitely. It's helpful if we can get past seeing the other sex as adversarial. Let's all work together to solve this, but in order to do that, both sides have to acknowledge the validity of the other person's feelings and challenges.

That is the key: we have a choice on whether to feed that lower chakra, primal urge or balance the feelings and elevate ourselves.

Ah, I just said that very same thing!

I realize that thoughts like those are a slippery slope to what you were talking about with some men using a woman's appearance as a way to JUSTIFY rape. Like she was asking for it or something, which is clearly insane. But yet I can't help but feel that there is some basic validity to the thought that an enlightened woman should at least be mindful of the way men are visually wired and make some practical adjustments.

Well said! It is indeed a slippery slope. Perhaps the determining factor is intention. Was she intentionally challenging those men, so that she could then find an excuse to criticize men? Or was she reveling in her own youth and beauty, oblivious to the effect she was having on men?

I agree that women are part of the equation here. Women do indeed know how powerful they are. In fact, some cultures teach that women have the power. They have the power to seduce men. There are many stories about empires falling because the leader made poor decisions because of his lust for a woman. The King Arthur story comes to mind.

Women do indeed have their own catalyst, and part of it is to learn compassion for men's biologically programmed catalyst. On some level, even the victimized sex slaves have chosen that path. Victim is just the other side of victimizer. Two sides of the same coin. The STS polarity depends on victims as well as victimizers.

I never really joined in because I saw it as nothing but frustration. Why would I want to allow myself to get all worked up and hot and bothered when I wasn't in an appropriate setting and had no partner? That would just leave me unfulfilled and craving. I preferred to save my passion for actual women at appropriate times and I couldn't really see why these guys who I knew had sexual relationships would waste their time and energy watching dirty videos. I mean, I was interested in light pornography before I started having relationships with real girls, but after I started dating, I completely lost interest in it.

You sound a lot like my husband! One time he was in a convenience store and just ahead of him was a young man with a lot of acne, buying a girlie mag. An elderly woman was behind the counter. As she took the boy's money, she said to him, "Why don't you get yourself a real girl?" My husband laughed as he told the story.

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Monica, thank you once again for this awesome female insight. I never heard the female dilemma explained so clearly. I will have to meditate on this at length.

There is so much more. I've barely scratched the surface. Looksism is everywhere. Here are some examples:

Barbie dolls. Who designed Barbie dolls??? They are anatomically impossible. Totally unrealistic. What kind of signal is this giving to impressionable children? Most little girls play with Barbie dolls, and it's perpetuating the ideal male image of an impossibly tiny waist, long slender legs, and disproportionately large breasts. Did you know that there is a movement to change that? There are anatomically realistic dolls on the market, that aware mothers buy as an alternative to Barbie?

When was the last time you saw a movie with the female lead character played by a short, plump actress?

About 6-7 years ago, quite out of the blue, my wife mentioned to me that she would be willing to get breast implants for me. It shocked me to the core and I had an extremely negative reaction to the suggestion. She and I were friends before becoming lovers and she knew that I used to have a preference for larger breasts, which she reminded me of. While that was technically true, love changes everything. I am (and was) so completely in love with her that she was perfect to me in every way. I didn't and don't wish to change a thing about her physically. And I certainly would never want her to subject herself to something so bad for her health for something so utterly shallow!! I never said anything negative to her about her body and I was a little hurt that she obviously didn't realize how much I adored her and thought that I could be so shallow.

Oh wow. You are so much like my husband it's uncanny. I am so grateful to have such an amazing man. And your wife is very lucky indeed!

We've had some similar experiences. As an example, I am very short and would never go out in public without 3" heels. Very early in our relationship, I was having some back pain and my calf muscles were very tight from wearing heels all the time. My husband, being a fitness enthusiast, convinced me to quit wearing the heels, in favor of my health over some unrealistic attempt to be taller. That meant a lot to me!

It may affect me visually but likely affects her emotionally on some level. I spent so much time thinking about that topic..that maybe I wasn't reassuring her enough, that perhaps I had made some idle comment that I couldn't even remember. I never stopped to think about the impact of the physical ideals women are subliminally programmed to live up to in our society.

Here's a dilemma: Physical attraction is part of the equation. If our mate happens to be physically attractive, it's natural to compliment them on their looks. A man married to a beautiful woman will tell her how beautiful she is, and she will love getting those compliments.

However, what happens if she loses her beauty? She may wonder how much of her mate's attentiveness was based on her physical beauty and how much on her other qualities. She may then feel inadequate and insecure.

While it's certainly good to offer compliments about her beauty, I would suggest giving equal time to complimenting her on her other qualities, when she is still beautiful. Don't wait until she loses her beauty! (We all lose our physical beauty eventually, some sooner than others.) Tell her now, that you admire her beauty but love her deeply anyway, regardless of how physically beautiful she is. Then, if down the road she ever loses that beauty, she will remember what you told her in the days of her youth, and it will comfort and reassure her more than anything you could say later. (This is just a generic suggestion and not directed to Pablisimo or anyone else personally.)

I must say again that true love dissolves the physical issues.

I absolutely agree!!!

My wife is 14 years older than me and when we first started dating, she told me she was worried I would look over at her one day and realize just how old she has become and be upset at the mistake I'd made.

It's understandable that she would be concerned about that. Right now I know a woman 10 years older than her husband, and their marriage is falling apart for that very reason. She is 65 and has a lot of health problems and looks like an old woman, while her husband is young, fit, and virile. In fact, they look so mismatched that I was shocked when I first met them! Not so much because of the physical difference but because of the distance between them. He seemed to view her with disgust. There was zero affection displayed. She might have been his mother! I wonder how much of their problems are because of her own insecurity, and how much is the man not appreciating her.

Ha! This woman has become more and more and more beautiful to me as the years have gone by. Yes, she ages, but our love has become so intense that she seems more and more perfect, inside and out with every passing year. I'm far more attracted to her now than I was 13 years ago!!

That's so awesome!!! You are so uncannily exactly like my hubby! And I adore him more as time goes by too!

I looked at her just the other day and the sunlight glinted off of a few gray strands of her otherwise dark hair. I imagined her with a full head of silver hair and thought to myself how beautiful that would look on her. In that instant, I realized that she would continue to be my goddess no matter how old she became or how her body changed. I think love transcends physicality. I know, she will one day be a very beautiful "old lady" and I will be proud to stand at her side.

I'm starting to get a few gray strands. One day I mentioned to my hubby that I haven't decided whether to start dying my hair (like most women do) when it gets grayer, or be one of those gray-haired hippie crones. He couldn't understand why I was even considering it.

Regardless of one's real attractiveness, a loving committed relationship blinds us to our mate's physical flaws and amplifies their inner and outer beauty.

I would suggest only a minor modification: Substitute the word physical for real. What is the real attractiveness?

[origin]

I am hesitant to comment on an already amazing, thorough and lengthy thread about the nature of Sex/Sexual Energy Transfers, but I guess that I am still wondering about it in relation to my own experiences.

Monica, I felt that your initial response resonated so strongly with my own feelings! I also thought that the LOO passage was eye-opening the first time that I had read it. It voiced an intuition that I'd had since I began my current long-term relationship; I simply had not been able to express clearly to my partner. Before I read LOO, I explained to him that I felt that Sex should be Spiritual, but he did not understand my perspective or seem to agree with it. I felt brokenhearted, but I still attempted to show him what I meant when we made love after discussing this. It really didn't seem to resonate with him and I have felt out of touch with him sexually since (this was early last year). Although we have since made love, it's usually the case that he feels exhilarated afterward and I feel physically tired and emotionally drained. And I do keep coming to this LOO quote in my mind that you pointed out:

Due to the veiling process the energy transferred from male to female is different than that transferred from female to male. Due to the polarity difference of the mind/body/spirit complexes of male and female the male stores physical energy, the female mental and mental/emotional energy. When third-density sexual energy transfer is completed the male will have offered the discharge of physical energy. The female is, thereby, refreshed, having far less physical vitality. At the same time, if you will use this term, the female discharges the efflux of its stored mental and mental/emotional energy, thereby offering inspiration, healing, and blessing to the male which by nature is less vital in this area.

I also look to this quote:

In green ray there are two possibilities. Firstly, if both vibrate in green ray there will be a mutually strengthening energy transfer, the negative or female, as you call it, drawing the energy from the roots of the being-ness through the energy centers, thus being physically revitalized; the positive, or male polarity, as it is deemed in your illusion, finding in its energy transfer an inspiration which satisfies and feeds the spirit portion of the body/mind/spirit complex, thus both being polarized and releasing the excess of that which each has in abundance by nature of intelligent energy, that is, negative/intuitive, positive/physical energies as you may call them; this energy transfer being blocked only if one or both entities have fear of possession or of being possessed, of desiring possession or desiring being possessed.

What I have been trying to figure out is whether this is the result of an energy blockage that I may have or that he may have or that both of us may have. He has shared with me before that he could have sex every day if I wanted, which surprised me. I have never quite felt that way because I always thought it was about the quality of experience and not necessarily the quantity. So I am still contemplating this because this same sexual dynamic continues and I am feeling confused and saddened by it.

I would welcome any thoughts from anyone about this predicament.

[Lavazza]

Edit: edited

[Monica]

Before I read LOO, I explained to him that I felt that Sex should be Spiritual, but he did not understand my perspective or seem to agree with it. I felt brokenhearted, but I still attempted to show him what I meant when we made love after discussing this...What I have been trying to figure out is whether this is the result of an energy blockage that I may have or that he may have or that both of us may have.

Hi Origin! I can so totally relate to what you're saying! I've been there.

Those quotes helped me a lot to realize that we didn't have to have a perfectly matched energy in order to have a beneficial energy exchange. If both partners love each other, then green ray is being activated, and if green ray is being activated, energy is being exchanged to the capacity of the partners. Each will enjoy the exchange on the level according to where they're at (ie. no blockages).

I would suggest that the answer to your question is: A bit of both.

You are seeking a more emotional exchange but not getting it, and wondering whether it's you being blocked or him not understanding what you're seeking, right? Since we are all One, and mated partners in particular mirror to each other, then it makes sense to me that both sides of the equation enter into play here. So, if you are lacking fulfillment emotionally, it's BOTH you and him, since you are mirroring to each other.

As you clear your own blockages, he will respond on a more emotional level. Likewise, as he clears his blockages, he will be more receptive to your emotional offering and reciprocate. Which needs happen first? I don't think it matters. If EITHER of you clears your blockages (and we all have blockages to some degree, I think - it's a process), then the other benefits.

What helped me when I was in that situation was to ponder why I was blocking the receiving of love. In my case, I realized that I didn't really love myself. How could I receive love fully when I didn't love myself?

Interestingly, when I realized that and made progress in that area, guess what! miraculously, my mate seemed to have a corresponding breakthru as well. Was that mere coincidence? I don't think so! Our energies fed each other and mirrored each other. Likewise, whenever he had a breakthru of some sort, it triggered a corresponding response in me.

So, I would suggest that you not fret about whether your partner is reciprocating in the way that you would like, and just focus on being fully in the moment, and just LOVE him, while loving yourself and opening yourself to RECEIVING love as well...and let the magick unfold! It will! The important thing is that you have commitment to each other...the rest will naturally develop as each of you evolves, and you can help each other, not just in the bedroom, but in your everyday interactions. Just being there for each other, loving each other, accepting each other, while nurturing and loving yourselves, will translate into greater energy exchange in the bedroom.

I hope this helps!

---

He has shared with me before that he could have sex every day if I wanted, which surprised me. I have never quite felt that way because I always thought it was about the quality of experience and not necessarily the quantity. So I am still contemplating this because this same sexual dynamic continues and I am feeling confused and saddened by it.

Here's another suggestion: you might consider throwing caution to the winds and surrender yourself to joyful abandon...try doing it every day for awhile and see what happens! Without any judgement or expectation on the 'quality' of the experience, just be there in the moment, and accept it for what it is...you just might be surprised! And he might be so appreciative that his heart chakra might just open!

[thefool]

Here's another suggestion: you might consider throwing caution to the winds and surrender yourself to joyful abandon...try doing it every day for awhile and see what happens! Without any judgement or expectation on the 'quality' of the experience, just be there in the moment, and accept it for what it is...you just might be surprised! And he might be so appreciative that his heart chakra might just open!

You have said exactly I was going to say but perhaps you said it more eloquently so i am going to leave it at that

You can enjoy all aspects of sexuality including the Red Ray exchange. It is nothing to be looked down upon. Fulfillment at Red Ray will lead you to higher rays but you can not skip a step and jump to Green before you had a chance to explore Red Ray first. Fortunately or unfortunately this is how it works in 3D

[Edited]: Perhaps you may want to consider a non-sexual activity where his heart is completely open in. For example: If he likes Horse Riding then buy two rides for him and go together. His heart will be open and excited and you will get your emotional fulfillment being with him when he is so open and happy. It is a win win and a recipe for a great sex later on

[Pablísimo]

I so embrace the consciously merging with you fellow seekers in resplendent, joyful oneness. As it is, you blow my mind with a keyboard! To know oneness with you would be a never-ending joy.

Well said, my friend, well said indeed! I agree completely. You know, reading your post about the moderator headaches made me wish there was a thread about the different types of catalyst the moderators have received from administering the forums. I would be interested in your perspectives. Consider it a thread suggestion.

At the time, I sought help from other women. But, being young, my friends certainly weren't any help. I read the advice columns in which the advice was always the same: Don't make a big deal out of your man's porn habits or you'll lose him. Be ready and willing to have sex at any moment, if you want to keep your man. It's ok for your man to look as long as he doesn't touch.

The prevalent attitude among most women I knew was that this was something they didn't dare mess with. To take on the male obsession with porn was an insurmountable task, something doomed to failure. Any woman who didn't understand that was stupid and destined to lose her man and it would be her fault for being so possessive. After all, everyone knows that Boys will be boys, right?

This was the mentality I was dealing with, and I wasn't mature enough or confident enough at the time to trust my own feelings or guidance.

I just would like to note here that in my own path, I"ve often found the best position to take to be somewhere between two extremes. I believe there is always a Middle Way. The balance between tolerance and acceptance of your mate's challenges and insisting upon honor and respect for yourself must be struck.

(03-05-2010 08:02 PM)Pablísimo Wrote: Understanding is the ultimate key to forgiveness, in my view.
I would say that it can be a key, thus making forgiveness easier to accomplish, but in many cases we don't have the luxury of understanding. Understanding is not of this density, so if we have it, that's great, but many times we don't have it, and in those cases, making the choice to forgive first, before we have understanding, is powerful indeed. To choose to forgive someone when you really disagree with them and don't have a clue why they did what they did...can in turn unlock the key to understanding! So it can work both ways!

Very insightful, and true. I had felt understanding to be the key to forgiveness for a very long time before finding LOO. When I read that understanding was not of this density, I initially only thought that it applied to the greater questions of life. I had given up finding the answers fully a decade before finding LOO and that quote resonated very deeply with me and gave me a kind of peace about it. However, as I contemplated your words just now I realize that indeed in many cases I only think I understand a person or situation, when in fact, I do not. And regardless of my relative understanding, it should not be a prerequisite to forgiveness, especially since forgiveness itself can lead to at least greater understanding, as you eloquently noted. I liken it to the idea that life is difficult because content people cannot grow, but growth itself brings contentment. A self-resolving paradox.

Definitely. It's helpful if we can get past seeing the other sex as adversarial. Let's all work together to solve this, but in order to do that, both sides have to acknowledge the validity of the other person's feelings and challenges.

Right on, sister!

Well said! It is indeed a slippery slope. Perhaps the determining factor is intention. Was she intentionally challenging those men, so that she could then find an excuse to criticize men? Or was she reveling in her own youth and beauty, oblivious to the effect she was having on men?

Wow, some old catalyst just jumped up at me. All these years, I assumed it was the former, and I could be right, but what if it was the the latter? That changes the equation dramatically. Thanks for the insight on intent!

There is so much more. I've barely scratched the surface. Looksism is everywhere. Here are some examples:

Barbie dolls. Who designed Barbie dolls??? They are anatomically impossible. Totally unrealistic. What kind of signal is this giving to impressionable children? Most little girls play with Barbie dolls, and it's perpetuating the ideal male image of an impossibly tiny waist, long slender legs, and disproportionately large breasts. Did you know that there is a movement to change that? There are anatomically realistic dolls on the market, that aware mothers buy as an alternative to Barbie?

When was the last time you saw a movie with the female lead character played by a short, plump actress?

Good point. In all honesty, I was aware of these things peripherally but I don't think that they are something most men focus on because they don't directly affect the male gender to the same degree. In order to be more compassionate, I think it is helpful for men to try to be more cognizant of such issues. Indeed both sexes should try to better appreciate the unique challenges that the other gender faces on a daily basis. In that way, love and compassion grow.

While it's certainly good to offer compliments about her beauty, I would suggest giving equal time to complimenting her on her other qualities, when she is still beautiful. Don't wait until she loses her beauty! (We all lose our physical beauty eventually, some sooner than others.) Tell her now, that you admire her beauty but love her deeply anyway, regardless of how physically beautiful she is. Then, if down the road she ever loses that beauty, she will remember what you told her in the days of her youth, and it will comfort and reassure her more than anything you could say later. (This is just a generic suggestion and not directed to Pablisimo or anyone else personally.)

That is very good advice, Monica, and I'm glad you brought it up. While I am indeed quite physically attracted to my wife, it is her other qualities (Intelligence, compassion, nurturing, sense of humor, integrity) etc that really made me fall in love with her. It is important for everyone in a comitted relationship to see their partner in a broad light and not focus overmuch on any one aspect.

I learned Spanish as a foreign language a few years back and I maintain it by watching an episode of a Telenovela each day. Despite the cheesiness and formulaic qualities of some, if you are selective about which telenovalas you watch, there are some real gems out there. One thing that struck me years ago was how whenever a young female character was being comforted, the words used would always be "You're such a beautiful girl, you're so pretty, etc etc". When the guys would talk about their beloved, it's always "She's the loveliest creature, she's so beautiful" and on and on. Now, the shows themselves don't always portray women in a one-dimensional light. There have been some that present women in a very complex, multifaceted light (ie Doña Bárbara, Madre Luna). But always the speech patterns of talking about beauty as the first (and only) quality of worth. Some of these girls were very dynamic -- powerful, sassy, kind, sweet, intelligent, but it never seemed to get mentioned. Since the show itself showed many other fe male dimensions, I felt that perhaps the choice of lines was more of a reflection of a cultural predisposition towards judging a woman's value on her physical attractiveness rather than on other qualities. It was this catalyst that made me examine my compliments to my wife in a new light and I confess I was guilty of some of the same speech patterns despite my inner thoughts. That awareness helped me to adjust my speech to match my heart.

It's understandable that she would be concerned about that. Right now I know a woman 10 years older than her husband, and their marriage is falling apart for that very reason. She is 65 and has a lot of health problems and looks like an old woman, while her husband is young, fit, and virile. In fact, they look so mismatched that I was shocked when I first met them! Not so much because of the physical difference but because of the distance between them. He seemed to view her with disgust. There was zero affection displayed. She might have been his mother! I wonder how much of their problems are because of her own insecurity, and how much is the man not appreciating her.

Wow, no doubt they had some real issues. I would wager, though, that the age difference itself was not the cause of any of those problems.

(03-05-2010 08:02 PM)Pablísimo Wrote: Regardless of one's real attractiveness, a loving committed relationship blinds us to our mate's physical flaws and amplifies their inner and outer beauty.

I would suggest only a minor modification: Substitute the word physical for real. What is the real attractiveness?

Point taken. That sentence was carelessly typed by me. "Regardless of one's relative physical attractiveness, a loving committed relationship blinds us to our mate's physical flaws and amplifies their inner and outer beauty".

Love to all

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I am hesitant to comment on an already amazing, thorough and lengthy thread about the nature of Sex/Sexual Energy Transfers, but I guess that I am still wondering about it in relation to my own experiences.

Hi Origin! Good to hear from you. I'm glad you posted because no doubt your struggles and experiences are reflected in a hundred others that are not posting about it.

What I have been trying to figure out is whether this is the result of an energy blockage that I may have or that he may have or that both of us may have. He has shared with me before that he could have sex every day if I wanted, which surprised me. I have never quite felt that way because I always thought it was about the quality of experience and not necessarily the quantity.Blush So I am still contemplating this because this same sexual dynamic continues and I am feeling confused and saddened by it.

Each person, and each relationship is unique. I am always hesitant to speak in generalities, but perhaps I can share some of my own experience. My wife & I have reached the point where we frequently have sacred sexual experiences. That is, we do have purely playful (and sometimes primal) sex, but there is green ray energy transfer more often than not these days.

That said, it certainly wasn't always this way! Our love, and our sex life, evolved naturally over time. I think that if you focus on developing your love and deepening your relationship with each other in all other ways, that the quality of your sexual energy exchange will improve by itself. As you both become more spiritual and grow together, the sexual relationship will become more spiritual as well. To me, the sexual aspect of a relationship is a only one part of the picture, and it is not always helpful to focus overmuch on any one aspect.

thefool had some great insights and I loved the suggestion of horseback riding (Or whatever activity it might be). Learn to scuba dive (my personal favorite) or take a Tai Chi class together, anything!

As far as sex every day goes, there are some practical considerations here. If your mate is relatively young and especially if he has some red ray blockage, he may have a high amount of sexual tension and that could be part of the reason for his inability to appreciate more spiritual sex. In my early twenties, I had a much stronger appetite for sex than I do now and, at some point, we realized that my wife did not share that level of appetite. We didn't exactly plan this all out or have a schedule or anything, but what ended up happening is that from time to time, she "took care of me", that is, gave me sexual release without full intercourse as a gesture of love. Here's a delicate (and true) analogy. Sometimes she needed a backrub after a long day and even though my own back didn't hurt and I didn't want a massage for myself, I was glad to do it for her as a service of love.

Anyway, one of the surprising effects of that arrangement was that when we did have sex, it was calmer and more loving because I was not bursting at the seams with pent up passion, and she herself was in a more receptive mood and so enjoyed the experience more. That improved the quality tremendously. I'm not saying necessarily that this is right for you, and I hope this didn't come off as self-serving or crass, I'm only sharing my own experiences.

Still, my best advice is to focus on the love you share, do fun things together, share your feelings and learn to honor and respect eachother in all ways. Work on the love relationship rather than the sex relationship. I believe that if you tend the garden of your love well, that the sexual flowers within it will bloom in their own good time.

Love to all

[Monica]

I"ve often found the best position to take to be somewhere between two extremes. I believe there is always a Middle Way. The balance between tolerance and acceptance of your mate's challenges and insisting upon honor and respect for yourself must be struck.

Yes, I agree, but the challenge is in determining what that middle ground is...what is balance? What is balance for one might be extreme for another. For example, a co-worker once told me that I was 'too extreme' for being a vegetarian. I was amused by this, because I was a middle-of-the-road lacto-ovo vegetarian at the time. To me, 'extreme' was being a vegan raw foodist! (Though now I don't even consider that 'extreme' anymore.) But to her, I was extreme! It's all relative!

And, at which point is there balance? Balance compared to what? If we elongate the snapshot of time, balance might take on a totally new meaning. For someone who was very self-centered in their last few lifetimes, perhaps balance might be to be totally giving. Or maybe one partner is more giving than the other, and as the years go by, their roles are reversed. Maybe the giving partner gets injured and the other partner is forced to learn to give, or has an epiphany of appreciation and starts making up for all those years of not giving.

We have all programmed catalyst to bring us into ultimate balance, but what might appear to be balance at the present moment might not be balancing in the long run. (Just a thought!)

regardless of my relative understanding, it should not be a prerequisite to forgiveness, especially since forgiveness itself can lead to at least greater understanding,

Exactly!

Wow, some old catalyst just jumped up at me. All these years, I assumed it was the former, and I could be right, but what if it was the the latter? That changes the equation dramatically. Thanks for the insight on intent!

Cool!

cultural predisposition towards judging a woman's value on her physical attractiveness rather than on other qualities. It was this catalyst that made me examine my compliments to my wife in a new light and I confess I was guilty of some of the same speech patterns despite my inner thoughts. That awareness helped me to adjust my speech to match my heart.

I've noticed that too. Whenever there is a tragic death of a teenager, notice how the news always mentions how beautiful they were. They might then go on to mention other qualities, but the physical attractiveness seems to be at the top of the list.

It's very deeply programmed. Look at beauty pageants. They give lip service to the contestants' other qualities, by having talent contests, questions about current events, etc. in an effort to show balance, but the bottom line is that only beautiful girls can have any chance at all of competing. Physical beauty is still a requirement for participation.

Here is a tragic yet inspiring story

I would like to find that Q'uo session that dealt with the catalyst of physical beauty, if anyone happens to remember which session that was.

Wow, no doubt they had some real issues. I would wager, though, that the age difference itself was not the cause of any of those problems.

Yeah, probably.

Our love, and our sex life, evolved naturally over time.

Same here!

I think that if you focus on developing your love and deepening your relationship with each other in all other ways, that the quality of your sexual energy exchange will improve by itself. As you both become more spiritual and grow together, the sexual relationship will become more spiritual as well...
...what ended up happening is that from time to time, she "took care of me", that is, gave me sexual release without full intercourse as a gesture of love. Here's a delicate (and true) analogy. Sometimes she needed a backrub after a long day and even though my own back didn't hurt and I didn't want a massage for myself, I was glad to do it for her as a service of love.

Again you could be speaking for me. We've had the very same experience, and even the reverse of that. This is a very astute point. We might think that sex is only 'spiritual' if you hear the music of the Cosmos afterwards, and your head expands into the many thousand petaled lotus, and that's most wonderful, but what you describe here - the simple act of being considerate enough to lovingly give to your partner what s/he needs at that moment - is a powerful act of selfless service!

Still, my best advice is to focus on the love you share, do fun things together, share your feelings and learn to honor and respect eachother in all ways. Work on the love relationship rather than the sex relationship. I believe that if you tend the garden of your love well, that the sexual flowers within it will bloom in their own good time.

Beautifully said!