David Wilcock, Daniel, & The Harvest

[Oceania]

survival is not some lowly lower vibration. it's just a fact of the world. now, if one were to live one with nature, and survive by gathering berries and plants, enjoying the sun and earth underneath ones feet, living in a very basic way. would you call that survivalistic or spiritual? time away from this sick world with its sick materialism and getting back to basics like what you really need instead of see advertised on TV, is what brings about a peace in the heart and mind and opens one to spiritual truth. working hard maybe, to build shelter may be time consuming but it's not poisoning you like our world poisons you, it's honest work that has real results. it also teaches self confidence, skills, it grounds you to the earth and gives you respect for nature, and is humbling.

the only reason anyone in a third world country would suffer our sickness is because white man destroyed their way of life and introduced sickness. western world is a disease spreading all over the planet.

---

animals are also very pure beings and they are all about survival. it is not lower vibration, it is just a density. all densities are equal in worth.

[hogey11]

Also, the "stresses and concerns of a survival nature (food, shelter, safety)" not only apply to their concepts of self, but also the other-selves around them. In first world countries, our 'rite of passage' is to financially break apart from your family and start to 'build your own castle'. In the third world, family usually doesn't start or end; many are always together and rely on each other throughout their lives. This offers prime opportunities to also help the other-selves around you and work on your polarization in that way. Just because they have less does not predispose them to the STS side of things; the same desperation can be seen as opportunity to work in the STO dichotomy as well.

---

6.15 Questioner: What is the length, in our years, of one of these cycles?

Ra: One major cycle is approximately 25,000 of your years. There are three cycles of this nature during which those who have progressed may be harvested at the end of three major cycles. That is, approximately between 75 and 76,000 of your years. All are harvested regardless of their progress, for during that time the planet itself has moved through the useful part of that dimension and begins to cease being useful for the lower levels of vibration within that density.

Doesn't the bold part make all this 'people aren't ready' argument a moot point? I read this as Ra saying that it doesn't matter if people aren't ready for the 4D sphere because the planet is no longer built for them anymore. I think allowing them the chance to live out their incarnation amongst the changing 4D world and then going back into a 3D incarnation after death is a little 'treat' given to them for being around for the harvest... If they experience the same forgetting they normally do with a 3D incarnation, it wouldn't be some great risk against free will either.

[xise]

western world is a disease spreading all over the planet.

Not a disease as much as a different sort of catalyst my friend.

[Oceania]

disease is a catalyst. it's still a dis ease, my friend.

[Monica]

Tenet and hogey, you both have valid points!

Having to spend so much energy on survival can get in the way of spiritual evolution.

But so can getting sucked into materialism.

It's a tossup!

[AnthroHeart]

Trying to be spiritual can get in the way as well.

[Tenet Nosce]

This is where my real world experience disagrees with you.

I certainly wouldn't argue with your experience. But the experience you relate is the exception, not the norm. Your friend has had a quite unusual experience, according to the standard of Congoans. It is fallacious to attempt to generalize to all people in third-world nations based on your example.

In my experience, I have traveled through several third-world nations. There are certainly many people in these who are not in abject poverty. They are very, very poor, according to American standards, but they still have food to eat and a warm place to sleep. And yes, many of them are quite "spiritual."

Yes, it is true that so many people live on less than a dollar a day... but the flip side is that so much more can be purchased for a dollar. It is enough to meet basic subsistence.

But I'm not talking about those people per se. I'm talking about all people everywhere who start every day off not knowing if they are going to eat a meal or not.

Metaphysical knowledge is not required in what we speak of. For all we know, it is yet another unneeded distortion to our lessons...

One need not have knowledge of the human respiratory system, and yet they still require their lungs to absorb oxygen from the atmosphere. Similarly, metaphysical knowledge is not required, and yet the process we speak of as "harvest" is metaphysical in nature.

In order to attain harvest, an entity's mind must be polarized enough to attract a sufficient amount of the "light of harvestable quality." No knowledge of how this process works is necessary, but the process itself is absolutely necessary.

I would propose a possibility in this case. Let's say these atrocities are meant to happen for karmic purposes. Wouldn't it make sense from a higher self perspective to give those in those learnings the very best environment surrounding their lesson?

Sure, that is possible. But then, wouldn't it make sense from the perspective of a metaphysical society to abstain from contact until a population has worked out all these karmic knots?

Just because they have less does not predispose them to the STS side of things; the same desperation can be seen as opportunity to work in the STO dichotomy as well.

What I am saying is that STS and STO isn't even an option until basic physical survival needs are met. But you are taking the discussion sort of sideways here anyway.

The point which I was making is that humanity- as a collective- has the means available to us right here, right now, to put an end to abject poverty. And yet we haven't done this.

Why? Who knows why. Lots of reasons- including karma that needs to be worked out as of yet. But what I am saying is that I think there is a fair argument to be made- from the perspective of a metaphysical society- or even an advanced physical society- to refrain from contact until the population has demonstrated a basic level of understanding of the Law of One. It doesn't by any means need to be full unity consciousness, but at the least an open acknowledgment of the interconnectedness of all entities.

It is not only a protection for the pre-contact population, but for those who would make contact as well.

No doubt, there are some civilizations (and maybe you are from one of them) who feel that the time is right. Hatonn, for example, was all set to make a mass landing in the late sixties. But it didn't happen, and still hasn't happened.

Now I don't really know what is going on from the "other side" but my understanding is that there are large organizations- like the Confederation- which make these sort of determinations about contact in a group consensus fashion. So until that consensus is reached, there will be no open contact.

What is more, the fact that there has been no open contact suggests that consensus has not been reached. Although I do feel that point is closer than ever before.

Doesn't the bold part make all this 'people aren't ready' argument a moot point?

It does if we are actually at the end of the 75,000 year cycle. But we don't really know when that is. Could be tomorrow; Could be another thousand years from now. Even Ra said that the 75,000 years is approximate.

I read this as Ra saying that it doesn't matter if people aren't ready for the 4D sphere because the planet is no longer built for them anymore.

At the end of the cycle, those people are transferred to another 3D sphere. And from what I can make out from the transcripts, this is done quite unconsciously from their perspective.

I think allowing them the chance to live out their incarnation amongst the changing 4D world and then going back into a 3D incarnation after death is a little 'treat' given to them for being around for the harvest...

Putting a 3D entity in a 4D world is hardly a treat. They would go quite insane.

[Monica]

Your friend has had a quite unusual experience, according to the standard of Congoans. It is fallacious to attempt to generalize to all people in third-world nations based on your example.

Um...but isn't saying that "there is a standard" making a generalization?

In order to attain harvest, an entity's mind must be polarized enough to attract a sufficient amount of the "light of harvestable quality." No knowledge of how this process works is necessary, but the process itself is absolutely necessary.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that humans who haven't gotten past the lower chakra lessons don't have much chance of activating green ray to the point of being harvestable. Yet, we know from Ra that every 3D entity on this planet right now, was allowed to incarnate because they had a reasonable shot at harvestability.

17.41 Questioner: At this time, near the end of the cycle, how are reincarnations into the physical allocated, shall we say, on this planet?
Ra: I am Ra. Entities wishing to obtain critically needed experience in order to become harvestable are incarnated with priority over those who will, without too much probable/possible doubt, need to re-experience this density.

17.42 Questioner: How long has this type of allocation been going on?
Ra: I am Ra. This has been going on since the first individual entity became conscious of its need to learn the lessons of this density. This was the beginning of what you may call a seniority by vibration.

17.43 Questioner: Can you explain what you mean by a seniority by vibration?
Ra: I am Ra. This will be the final question of this session of working.

The seniority by vibration is the preferential treatment, shall we say, which follows the ways of the Law of One which encourages harvestable individuals, each individual becoming aware of the time of harvest and the need on a self-level to bend mind, body, and spirit towards the learn/teaching of these lessons, is given priority in order that this entity may have the best possible chance, shall we say, of succeeding in this attempt.

Sure, that is possible. But then, wouldn't it make sense from the perspective of a metaphysical society to abstain from contact until a population has worked out all these karmic knots?

Yes it does. But, that presupposes that it's the same population.

By the time they make open contact, the population might have been thinned. Some of the population might have already been escorted to the other 3D planet, to finish their 3D experience.

Which would indicate that disclosure might not be quite as imminent as some would like to think. But that could change in an instant.

Also, higher density entities aren't visiting us because it's a fun vacation for them, so how welcoming we are to their arrival doesn't really factor into the equation. Their decision will surely be based on how much they can be of service to us. It's not outside the realm of possibility that open contact might be an extremely effective catalyst in the sorting process.

What I am saying is that STS and STO isn't even an option until basic physical survival needs are met.

I'm with hogey on this one. People have had to be concerned with basic survival this entire time. It's part of the design, being that this is a veiled planet. If that precluded anyone from polarizing, then the whole past 75,000 years would have been pointless.

The point which I was making is that humanity- as a collective- has the means available to us right here, right now, to put an end to abject poverty. And yet we haven't done this.

When viewed from a scientific evolutionary perspective, I might agree. But we know that humans didn't evolve from apes on a purely physical level and then continue to evolve as a species. We know that the ape body was just a receptacle for entities with varying levels of development, but all roughly in the same boat; ie. needing to repeat 3D. That's just the natives, not counting the Wanderers, who came from myriad origins and densities. Add to that, newly harvested 4D entities who did a quick turnaround to be of service at the last minute. There might even be some young 3D souls who were dogs or cats in their last life, who incarnated just to spice things up. We are a motley crew, to be sure!

So any observation about what humans have done as a collective is rather moot, methinks.

But what I am saying is that I think there is a fair argument to be made- from the perspective of a metaphysical society- or even an advanced physical society- to refrain from contact until the population has demonstrated a basic level of understanding of the Law of One. It doesn't by any means need to be full unity consciousness, but at the least an open acknowledgment of the interconnectedness of all entities.

That makes sense when applied to the past, because the veil was still thick. But it might not apply to this nexus, when the veil is thinning and the quarantine is about to be lifted. The game has changed! The bell is about to ring: class over!

It is not only a protection for the pre-contact population, but for those who would make contact as well.

Those rules might no longer apply post-veil. The question is only one of who will still be here when the quarantine is lifted.

Now I don't really know what is going on from the "other side" but my understanding is that there are large organizations- like the Confederation- which make these sort of determinations about contact in a group consensus fashion. So until that consensus is reached, there will be no open contact.

True. But again, the rules might be different after the end of the cycle, when the quarantine has been lifted. The whole reason they had to get consensus was that the thickness of the veil was experimental,

It does if we are actually at the end of the 75,000 year cycle. But we don't really know when that is. Could be tomorrow; Could be another thousand years from now. Even Ra said that the 75,000 years is approximate.

13.23 Questioner: How does a third-density planet become a fourth density planet?
Ra: I am Ra. This will be the last full question.

The fourth density is, as we have said, as regularized in its approach as the striking of a clock upon the hour. The space/time of your solar system has enabled this planetary sphere to spiral into space/time of a different vibrational configuration. This causes the planetary sphere to be able to be molded by these new distortions. However, the thought-forms of your people during this transition period are such that the mind/body/spirit complexes of both individual and societies are scattered throughout the spectrum instead of becoming able to grasp the needle, shall we say, and point the compass in one direction.

Thus, the entry into the vibration of love, sometimes called by your people the vibration of understanding, is not effective with the present societal complex. Thus, the harvest shall be such that many will repeat the third-density cycle. The energies of your Wanderers, your teachers, and your adepts at this time are all bent upon increasing the harvest. However, there are few to harvest.

My understanding is that the graduation into 4D of our planet is indeed quite precise, and the time was given for this: 2011-2012.

It is our response to the increased 4D light that may require a transition period.

At the end of the cycle, those people are transferred to another 3D sphere. And from what I can make out from the transcripts, this is done quite unconsciously from their perspective.

Agreed. My theory is that they will either depart this life, or, they might have a continuation of consciousness and simply jump to another timeline. (Actually, I think we'll all be jumping to timelines...we are each the Event Horizon!)

Putting a 3D entity in a 4D world is hardly a treat. They would go quite insane.

I'm with Tenet on this one!

[Parsons]

hogey, you are right at the cusp of understanding the harvest, so here would be my minor clarification: All will have (brief)contact with intelligent infinity at the striking of the hour and all will be harvested, regardless of progress, but that doesn't mean all will be harvested to 4D. That will be the point at which we are placed either further 3D lessons, 4D+ or 4D- (and when wanderers can return home to their density if they wish).

[Oceania]

i don't think Hogey said all will be harvested to 4D.

anyways the question is when are we really harvested? can we live out our lives or will we be collected like grapes when we're ripe and not pruney and dead. and what kind of wine will be made of us

[AnthroHeart]

Putting a 3D entity in a 4D world is hardly a treat. They would go quite insane.

I'm with Tenet on this one!

Even 3D without a veil would make everyone go insane.

[reeay]

Would you all be OK if quarantine ended or 'disclosure' happened somewhere between 2015-2030? Did you want it now?

[zenmaster]

Would you all be OK if quarantine ended or 'disclosure' happened somewhere between 2015-2030? Did you want it now?

What do we mean by disclosure? And just who is the authority to 'disclose'?

Disclosure already has happened, it's just that some people don't think it's in a desirable form - because they think they know better.

Or perhaps people want it to be the 'Disclosure' of Greer's 1992 'Disclosure Project' fame, where the US simply admits to a conspiracy to withhold information it may have regarding a cover up of ET visitation and any related black projects. That version certainly does not necessarily involve worldwide media. That would be a nifty thing to demand, because then some department in the US government becomes the authority to convey the meaning and purpose of ET visitation. Imagine the possibilities for how such a revelation could be framed.

Hogey thinks disclosure is part of a shift to the "4D mindset" (whatever he thinks that is). I disagree that some kind of official announcement has anything at all to do with "shifting" to 4D. Rather, I believe it is an expectation fueled by conspiracy theories attempting to lower and to reduce the phenomena of 4D to a more materialistic level suitable for digestion. The real question is, why the need to more tangibly associate other's prior evolution with earth's evolution? I think there's an analogy between rejected catalyst and the need for 'disclosure'. That is, just as catalyst tends to be ignored, due to lack of awareness and acceptance, and eventually must be felt in the physical, so to with the demands for how evolution can be exemplified by others. It's quite sad if you think about it.

[reeay]

What is a '4D mindset'?

[Oceania]

Putting a 3D entity in a 4D world is hardly a treat. They would go quite insane.

I'm with Tenet on this one!

Even 3D without a veil would make everyone go insane.

i dunnoooo... didn't Ra say they had no veil. or had a lighter veil and that made things easier?

i dunno if it's lack of veil you're experiencing but more of an access to time/space in a world that is very veiled. maybe that is the problem. you're balancing two worlds. i know that can be incredibly hard to do.

i don't know Rie, i think some of us could really use it now. but i know the world is waking up and going in a good direction. i don't care about alien disclosure as long as we get free energy and healing for all. just like that guy who washed those homeless and gave them food. we all need to do that for each other and we need the oppression to stop. we need global healing. we need it 500 years ago but tomorrow would be great.

[Ashim]

@Oceania

How about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvG1iVw8IjQ

[Oceania]

more like this:

[Tenet Nosce]

Would you all be OK if quarantine ended or 'disclosure' happened somewhere between 2015-2030? Did you want it now?

The further along I go, the less I care about some sort of "official" announcement or some sort of mass-scale event that would make the existence of other civilizations irrefutable.

To be honest- I used to view it in terms of the self-satisfaction of "rubbing everybody's nose in it" which is, of course, a rather immature view.

Right now, what I think I would enjoy most is a big global sigh of relief. And I don't think that "Disclosure" right now would be supportive of that. There's too much general fear and apprehension going around.

Bottom line is: If humanity have not even learned to trust each other- and to behave in a trustworthy fashion- meaning refraining from trying to connive, scheme, and plot against each other, murdering and raping each other, and making war on each other and the planet- then what can we really expect from an open contact?

Seems to me that- as with all things- we would be contacted by a civilization that most closely mirrors our own vibration. Which would be disastrous. Hence the quarantine.

---

What do we mean by disclosure? And just who is the authority to 'disclose'?

You know what that means... "Disclosure" refers to some official government acknowledgement of contact with other civilizations. But of course- that is still a desire to have an "external authority" tell us what to believe. Hence the difficulty.

Disclosure already has happened, it's just that some people don't think it's in a desirable form - because they think they know better.

Yes, that's true. At least, there is more than enough evidence to prove the existence of other civilizations to my satisfaction.

Personally- I feel like if I met an ET face-to-face I would neither be in tremendous "awe" or "fear" of them. They are just another me, right? Another reflection of myself to accept. No more, no less.

And besides, for all I know, I have met several ETs along the way and just happen to be oblivious to it.

[hogey11]

Disclosure already has happened, it's just that some people don't think it's in a desirable form - because they think they know better.

So why then do you fight tooth and nail against the idea that it would be fashioned in a more desirable form as we get closer to end of cycle?

That would be a nifty thing to demand, because then some department in the US government becomes the authority to convey the meaning and purpose of ET visitation. Imagine the possibilities for how such a revelation could be framed.

So it's a bad idea because the government could use it as a fear tactic? What if government had no inclination towards that strategy?

Hogey thinks disclosure is part of a shift to the "4D mindset" (whatever he thinks that is).

I think disclosure could aid in a shift to "4D mindset". In my own terms, a "4D mindset" is one in which we can start to process 4D catalyst as a whole rather than as individual beacons. In practical terms, I mean this as a clearing of confusion (aka a clearing of 3D artifacts). I don't expect it go over in a day, year, or even a decade. I expect the 100-700 year transition period to hold true, but that only designates the end of the project. I believe disclosure is just a helping hand along the way. A chance to end many of the 3D distractions and influences that are laden on this planet now due to STS harvest. As much as we might think it's up to every last one of us to make the change before the others, i'm not sure how that actually works in theory. Whenever the 'tipping point' happens to be, there will be some who 'are not ready'. Our issue lies in whether we can determine who is ready or not by their environment and generalized conclusions based on those things. I don't feel that is fair; how is that point of view not elitist?

I think there's an analogy between rejected catalyst and the need for 'disclosure'. That is, just as catalyst tends to be ignored, due to lack of awareness and acceptance, and eventually must be felt in the physical, so to with the demands for how evolution can be exemplified by others. It's quite sad if you think about it.

I think you should tread lightly here. You are making yourself out to be quite the authority, determining for others what is rejected catalyst and not. How can you not see this as catalyst in and of itself? If i'm "wrong" and we're sitting here without disclosure 25 years from now, do you really think I will have missed out on something?

The way that you approach your own lessons and catalyst is night and day from how I deal with my own in my life. There's nothing wrong with that. We each are attributed different catalyst and different lessons, and while you may think of this subject as "sad", believe me when I say that you have no right to.

Are there people who are going to have their bags packed up on December 20th, 2012, expecting to get on a spaceship? Yes, there probably will. Will they learn a grand lesson that day? Absolutely. If i'm aware of that lesson, yet I press on anyhow, is it because i'm choosing to be ignorant or is it because I have maybe formulated it different than you have?

At the end of the day, I don't know what disclosure will or would entail. As i've said before, it could be anything from spaceships on our front lawns to ancient information surfacing regarding inarguable evidence that we interacted with ETs in our past. It could be a little voice that appears in our heads and starts a conversation with us. For all we know, all wanderers will 'awaken' and lead the planet into a new horizon, having earned their right to through incarnation. Disclosure could happen in all sorts of contexts and ways; I do not claim to know which is the truth. I just can't see some situation where the entire planet will be ready for the upgrade at once; no matter what there will be those who are not ready nor compatible. In this way, I feel disclosure could very well help these people from going 'insane', as Rie has put it

---

Right now, what I think I would enjoy most is a big global sigh of relief. And I don't think that "Disclosure" right now would be supportive of that. There's too much general fear and apprehension going around.

I disagree on the fear and apprehension part. More than ever before do we have a beat on who the 'bad guys' are and what they are trying to do. That may bring out fear in some, but it brings out strength in others. Even with the last Israel/Palestine fiasco, there was very little talk or relation to WW3 or anything major really starting up. Even CNN was implying that this whole thing has gotten ridiculous. I don't see the dark clouds as much as others do.

Even to speak to something you were saying earlier, when I speak to Christian about the Congo, there are definitely those who are as you say and are truly struggling, but that is not the case with most. Most are just trying to live their lives, and they do so in their villages and communities which are always built with some sort of spiritual or cultural system in place. Christian lived on his own from 10 years old to 14 in a country he was not from. He doesn't like speaking about those times, but what I am saying is that he is someone who has seen the worst of it. He has been completely alone as a child, yet, he takes his spiritual life more seriously than 99% of all North Americans I know. How does his story support your argument that these people are so distracted? Why do monks starve themselves to gain higher levels of contemplation and meditation? I feel we are all speaking of things we do not really know; I am the first to admit that. Maybe you are right, but I also think there is a chance that these people are far better off spiritually than you realize, and it is BECAUSE of their wants that they are that way. When everyone isn't eating, focusing purely on self doesn't make you many friends.

Seems to me that- as with all things- we would be contacted by a civilization that most closely mirrors our own vibration. Which would be disastrous. Hence the quarantine.

Unless all this negativity is coming from a very small, concentrated group of people (STS harvestables/hopefuls maybe?) It could be that the vast majority of the population has no appetite for war and domination. It's just that those who do have been able to rise to the top.

This is my underlying point, much to zen's hatred for conspiracy. I believe we are influenced and affected by the STS choice in a dramatic fashion. I think without this influence, the 4D world starts to emerge in a much more clear fashion to our worldview.

[Tenet Nosce]

I still think contact with our long-lost inner-earth brethren would be a great primer, and yet sufficiently unexpected- even among the conspiracy-minded- to provide ample catalyst.

Whatever type of event occurs- it would be most beneficial if it were something that makes pretty much everybody in the "Disclosure" camp wrong. The last thing we need is Greer or any other "expert" ascending to superstar status and becoming the de facto guru on all things "alien."

[hogey11]

And besides, for all I know, I have met several ETs along the way and just happen to be oblivious to it.

This is an excellent point. What if the first point of disclosure is to show us all of the people who are extreterrestrials in the public eye? A true message of "we are no different than you are". I feel if there ever is any official disclosure, it will be done with races very similar to ours. Again, as a younger person, I don't see how people would be so fearful. Being afraid doesn't pass the logic test; if they wanted to mess us up, they'd have done it already.

---

I still think contact with our long-lost inner-earth brethren would be a great primer, and yet sufficiently unexpected- even among the conspiracy-minded- to provide ample catalyst.

Whatever type of event occurs- it would be most beneficial if it were something that makes pretty much everybody in the "Disclosure" camp wrong. The last thing we need is Greer or any other "expert" ascending to superstar status and becoming the de facto guru on all things "alien."

This I cannot agree more with you on. I see the problems that people are bringing up and I feel they're valid, but I think there may be some slippery elements as well that people aren't factoring in...

[Tenet Nosce]

I disagree on the fear and apprehension part. More than ever before do we have a beat on who the 'bad guys' are and what they are trying to do.

But hogey- the fact that we still view these people as the "bad guys", as something "other" than self, rather than what they actually are- a mirror of our own repressed desires means that we DON'T at all have a beat on who they are.

Honestly, it really confounds me how many people who consider themselves "lightworkers" still fall prey to this "us vs. them" mentality. Which gets back to my primary criticism of DW. Here is a person who says that their entire philosophical basis is the Law of One- and yet so much effort was spend in fanning the flames of "us vs them"... this seemingly external "Illuminati" slaving us against our own will.

They are us, and they have been giving us exactly what we have asked for. That is the reality so few seem willing to accept.

How does his story support your argument that these people are so distracted? Why do monks starve themselves to gain higher levels of contemplation and meditation? I feel we are all speaking of things we do not really know; I am the first to admit that. Maybe you are right, but I also think there is a chance that these people are far better off spiritually than you realize, and it is BECAUSE of their wants that they are that way. When everyone isn't eating, focusing purely on self doesn't make you many friends.

I don't think you are getting my point at all. I'm not sure how else to say it. Yes- we all need to attend to our own survival needs. But there are a great many people- wherever they might be found- who do not have much time to contemplate anything beyond their own survival.

My point is that the fact that humanity has collectively agreed that it is acceptable for ANYBODY to live in a state where they do not know where there next meal is coming from, or where ANY children are sold into sex slavery or otherwise raped and molested, would be a sign to me that humanity is not ready for contact.

If we were sitting in a galactic council, that would be my opinion, and I would cast a vote against contact. If you were also in that council, you might have a different opinion and cast a different vote.

But if the vote requires unanimity it doesn't matter how many "yes" votes there are. Only one "no" is required.

In any case, the fact that open contact has not yet happened is evidence that consensus has not been reached. It is up to you to decide whether or not you "accept" this reality.

Unless all this negativity is coming from a very small, concentrated group of people (STS harvestables/hopefuls maybe?) It could be that the vast majority of the population has no appetite for war and domination. It's just that those who do have been able to rise to the top.

But it's not a small concentrated group of people.

http://www.ct.gov/dcf/cwp/view.asp?a=4127&Q=492900

Today, more than twelve million people worldwide are enslaved.[1] An estimated two million children are bought and sold in the global commercial sex trade.[2] The sex slavery industry has become an increasingly important revenue source for organized crime because each young girl can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars each year for her pimp.

While this is a problem in many countries, many Americans don’t realize that it happens here at home as well. Thousands of children are forced into domestic sex slavery each year and that the average age of entry is 13 years old.[3] The majority of American victims of commercial sexual exploitation tend to be runaway youth who live on the street, often who have left homes where they were abused or abandoned. Pimps prey on their vulnerability. These girls are our neighbors, our friends, our sisters and our daughters.

That is our reality, whether you choose to accept it or not. It is not the result of a very small group of people. A small group of people does not require millions of child sex slaves to satiate their desires. Millions of child sex slaves means that many more millions are using them as such.

That you would suggest these runaway abused youth on the streets being sold into sex slavery have ample opportunity to contemplate their own spirituality is borderline offensive. But I will just chalk it up to youthful exuberance.

I believe we are influenced and affected by the STS choice in a dramatic fashion.

You give "STS" too much power. A suggestion to rape a little boy or girl is only accepted if there was a desire for rape to begin with.

Again, as a younger person, I don't see how people would be so fearful.

As a younger person, and particularly as one here in this discussion, you naturally would be more amenable to the idea. I suspect if you spent some time in a small town in the Bible Belt, you might gain a different view of where people's minds are at.

By the time your generation hits their prime, and my generation is hitting retirement age, I think the mass consciousness would be much more amenable to open contact. But for now- we are not in the majority. For example, I don't think you are accounting for the vast numbers of Americans who would consider any sort of open contact to be "of the devil."

[hogey11]

That is our reality, whether you choose to accept it or not. It is not the result of a very small group of people. A small group of people does not require millions of child sex slaves to satiate their desires. Millions of child sex slaves means that many more millions are using them as such.

That you would suggest these runaway abused youth on streets being sold into sex slavery have ample opportunity to contemplate their own spirituality is borderline offensive.

What I find offensive is that such actions would happen without a karmic burden to bear. It is not up to me to determine the soul contracts of others, and if these are just souls caught in the crossfire, then I take that as reasoning FOR disclosure, as such realities are not fit for general catalytic growth (in my dumb opinion ). I think you are focusing on a very small group of people and not realizing that I never said there weren't exceptions. I have said that there will be some who are not ready, but it will happen anyways.

You give "STS" too much power. A suggestion to rape a little boy or girl is only accepted if there was a desire for rape to begin with.

No, I am giving STS their respect. Until this planet turns into a fully functioning 4D planet, they have as much right to it as I do. I don't mean to talk of their 'presence' as if it's some terrible, ominous thing that we cannot escape; I just think they bring a massive amount of confusion to the table. That is a great difference between 3D and 4D, no? A lack of confusion rather than a lot of it? Removing the STS influence would fit the bill if you were to ask me how you would facilitate a change from a 3D planet to a 4D positive planet. Take out the weeds and the garden will grow (on it's own, mind you...)

And that is what David has been saying and what the OP was about. The 'Harvest', in Christian theological terms, which Carla believed strongly while channeling, was an event where the angels would come and remove the 'tares' from the field, to allow for a positive harvest of the wheat. In this same way, I can see disclosure bringing about a 'purge' of confusion regarding who is helping us evolved towards a 4D+ planet and who are looking to hinder us in that journey. Thus, the main journey of the transition period begins. RA says it will take time for the '3D thoughtforms and artifacts' to diminsh (I take this as 3D habits/psychology and our older technologies) and I don't expect that process to happen too quickly for the entire world at once. Rome wasn't built in a day

[Tenet Nosce]

Um...but isn't saying that "there is a standard" making a generalization?

The standard would be whatever a typical Congoan would experience. Granted, I've never been to the Congo.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that humans who haven't gotten past the lower chakra lessons don't have much chance of activating green ray to the point of being harvestable. Yet, we know from Ra that every 3D entity on this planet right now, was allowed to incarnate because they had a reasonable shot at harvestability.

I'm talking about people who don't know where their next meal is coming from. But anyway we were talking about this not as a requirement for graduation, but in relation to what an off-world civilization might consider when deciding whether or not to make open contact.

By the time they make open contact, the population might have been thinned. Some of the population might have already been escorted to the other 3D planet, to finish their 3D experience.

Which would indicate that disclosure might not be quite as imminent as some would like to think. But that could change in an instant.

Yes, that's true. But we are talking about right now. If the population dynamics change, so would my opinion.

I'm with hogey on this one. People have had to be concerned with basic survival this entire time. It's part of the design, being that this is a veiled planet. If that precluded anyone from polarizing, then the whole past 75,000 years would have been pointless.

We all have to attend to red ray survival needs. What precludes polarization is the lack of opportunity to attend to anything besides these.

Those rules might no longer apply post-veil. The question is only one of who will still be here when the quarantine is lifted.

But we're not talking about post-veil. I agree that whomever is here when quarantine is lifted will have grown beyond the need for such dross catalyst as I was previously describing. But that sort of supports my point.

---

I think you are focusing on a very small group of people and not realizing that I never said there weren't exceptions.

How do you consider many millions of people to be a "very small group"?

Removing the STS influence would fit the bill if you were to ask me how you would facilitate a change from a 3D planet to a 4D positive planet. Take out the weeds and the garden will grow (on it's own, mind you...)

Yes, but why is the removal of STS influence the same thing as Disclosure?

In this same way, I can see disclosure bringing about a 'purge' of confusion regarding who is helping us evolved towards a 4D+ planet and who are looking to hinder us in that journey.

Then you must see some way, that I don't see, of it happening that precludes mass confusion and chaos. I agree that, with the discontinuance of negative vibrations, it will be much easier for the population to get to that point where open contact would be appropriate.

But that would still depend on people doing the inner work. Any self-respecting ET civilization would wisely refrain from attempting to do the teach/learning for us.

[hogey11]

How do you consider many millions of people to be a "very small group"?

Even 7 Million people is only 0.1% of the entire population of earth. (edit: yea my bad, forgot the math part )

Yes, but why is the removal of STS influence the same thing as Disclosure?

The 'good workers' whom Jesus refers to as the 'angels' who would clear the fields of the tares would likely be the source of disclosure. I'm not saying they have to be mutually inclusive, nor exclusive. I just mean I could see that as the 'reasoning' behind disclosure from the Confederation's point of view. I'm making my own observation here, but I think it could be that 3D cycles are designed to be as long as they are due to the gravity of each end of the spectrum. What happens when you allow a 3D planet to exist longer than 75,000 years? Do things stay balanced the same or is it based on a specific design? Maybe the STS side of the spectrum can become too powerful if left too long, and eventually will start to affect the law of free will in regards to the incarnating souls there (I can't remember if it was Ra who spoke on this a bit too... gotta try to find it). Purely on the back of the level of technology we are capable of, I could see this reality being true here on earth either right now or very soon. I'm not saying they are successful with all their targets, but I think they can cast a pretty wide net with the control of money alone. All the rest are accoutrements

Again, these are just my working theories; I am not saying I know for sure this is what goes down...

Then you must see some way, that I don't see, of it happening that precludes mass confusion and chaos. I agree that, with the discontinuance of negative vibrations, it will be much easier for the population to get to that point where open contact would be appropriate.

If the approach is made with love and that love is received, it will work. The question is whether people will be able to trust or respond to a true approach of love. In that way, your criticisms are valid, but I have trust that people really want the right things; they just have no idea where to get them a lot of the times. If given the chance, I think the world shines far brighter than we realize.

[Tenet Nosce]

Even 7 Million people is only 0.001% of the entire population of earth.

No, it is 0.1%. And besides, the quote says 12 million people are enslaved. That means there are countless other millions who are, in some way, contributing to the enslavement. So that means it is at least 1% (probably more) of the population that is still engaging in enslavement of others.

If the approach is made with love and that love is received, it will work.

During the primaries, Ron Paul suggested that we should end our imperialistic wars. The vast majority of Americans found this view to be "laughable" and "naive."

Now imagine an ET has "landed on the White House lawn." How do you suppose that would be received by said people?

The question is whether people will be able to trust or respond to a true approach of love.

Precisely. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the answer to that question.

Besides, higher civilizations assist us by offering us catalyst to instill a sense of wonder and mystery. Stepping off their ships and "telling us how it is" would be the exact opposite of that.

There is a strong tendency in humanity to avoid doing their inner work in hopes that it will all just magically go away. Like- if we "believe in Jesus" one day we will go to "heaven" and all of our cares will just disappear.

The projection being made in the "Disclosure" community is that open contact with off-world civilizations will somehow magically do this work for us. This is the same sort of attitude as the devout Christians, only "ETs" have been substituted for "Jesus." To the contrary- it would actually present yet another distraction to the mountains of unprocessed catalyst already piled up on the inside.

[hogey11]

There is a strong tendency in humanity to avoid doing their inner work in hopes that it will all just magically go away. Like- if we "believe in Jesus" one day we will go to "heaven" and all of our cares will just disappear.

I've addressed this multiple times. I understand the risks.

Stepping off their ships and "telling us how it is" would be the exact opposite of that.

I don't know if impeding or removing the STS influence would be akin to 'telling us how it is', although I can see how it could be taken that way.... but that's a pretty arrogant standpoint as well, isn't it?

To the contrary- it would actually present yet another distraction to the mountains of unprocessed catalyst already piled up on the inside.

So when does that dichotomy change then? When does the 'clock strike the hour' if we're doomed to perpetual ineptitude?

PS thank you for correcting my bad math. I had a feeling I was making a mistake but ah well

[Tenet Nosce]

I don't know if impeding or removing the STS influence would be akin to 'telling us how it is', although I can see how it could be taken that way.... but that's a pretty arrogant standpoint as well, isn't it?

What do ETs have to do with "removing the STS influence"? Why do we need extra-terrestrials to do this? Isn't it just a natural progression of things?

Eventually, our planetary environment will no longer support negative vibrations. By that point, both the "STS influence" and those who succumb to it will either have evolved beyond the need for this type of catalyst, or will have departed from the planet. Incidentally, this would remove any need for quarantine, since there would be no more negative calling.

Think about it closely. If this is the natural progression of things, what does that say about a supposed "channeled ET group" that is taking credit for these changes which would have naturally occurred with or without them?

Are the "Illuminati" really being "contained" by the "good-guy" aliens? Or are the changes we are seeing simply the result of people naturally responding to higher vibrations? If so... are these really the "good guys" we are hearing from in these messages?

If you look closely at the contemporary channelings, there are those which are speaking about a natural shift in our inner landscape which will be followed by a shift in our outer landscape.

Then there are those who focus almost solely on the "Illuminati" and the "Cabal." These groups invariably take credit for their being "overthrown."

So when does that dichotomy change then? When does the 'clock strike the hour' if we're doomed to perpetual ineptitude?

I really don't know. I think I'm as confused about the "clock striking the hour" as I originally was when I first read it 17 years ago. At any rate, I'm not at all sure that the "clock strike" is identical to the end of the "inconveniences" after thirty years which they refer to.

An interesting side note is that at the time that I came across the Ra Material (1995) the "next big thing" in new age circles was a pole shift happening ostensibly in 1998 that the aliens were going to rescue us from in their ships. There was little talk of 2012 then.

Then it was Y2K and David Wilcock's "Ascension 2000." Then Planet X/Nibiru was coming in 2003. Along with more supposed aliens. Then there was something else in 2006- another comet I think? Then DW's "Immanent Disclosure" prediction in 2008. Last year it was Elenin that was coming in with the ETs supposedly soon to follow.

And here we are on the cusp of winter solstice 2012 with no open contact.

I'm not sure where in the timeline you became interested in these subjects, but be aware that every time a false prediction is passed, it has been swept under the rug and those who made the predictions just make new ones- along with a new set of books, videos, lectures, conferences, etc.

At the least, I know you were here last year for the heated discussion about harvest being on 28 October 2011. Well here we are! Missing only the individual who so fervently argued that it was going to occur.

PS thank you for correcting my bad math. I had a feeling I was making a mistake but ah well

LOL, no worries. It happens!

[zenmaster]

Yet, we know from Ra that every 3D entity on this planet right now, was allowed to incarnate because they had a reasonable shot at harvestability.

That's really not true at all. They were allowed to incarnate because they had a relatively higher probability of harvestability among those compatible with this locale. Big difference.

[DirndlDude]

I'm so fraking surprised how central to "the world" this forum is right now actually and would not be surprised if most people here are some really super famous person in disguise

Think about it. 2012 culture was literally spawned in the hippie movement, of which the LL group is probably the most central, of which this forum is the most central. If you think about it from a historical (what started what) and not a actual (what is the result of the what that started the what).

From that perspective this forum is the very heart of this eras transition. IT is like sitting in popes chamber with a bong and a bag of chips during the 1999 to 2000 transition.

You guys have any idea how awesome i think this is.

J.J. Abrams