About Social Values-coufused

[qqliudl]

Greetings everyone, during my way on LOO, I am confused with following questiones, hope to know your comments, many thanks~
Love and light~

1,We know that our social system exists lots of distortions， but under such mechanism，millions of people devote their whole life to achieve certain achievements，most of them are very kind, talented and diligent people but seem not realize to love all beings is our major lecture here, so I hope to know how could we view these 'outstanding' people , and what these achievements means to themselves in this period of incarnation.


2, I also hope to know my following understanding is appropriate or not, So the best way to "develop" the 3rd density is to learn love rather than our development right now such as industry and science. When we mediation and open our mind/body/sprite, we will realize and can use more advanced technologies compare to our own ones, just it is so hard for 3rd densities to gain certain love and intelligence, so we will experience lot of space/time here and get lots of distortions on our way to gain certain love and intelligence. And I also hope to know if the ancient Indians will get more Graduates compare to ours although their illusions of material seem to be so undeveloped.

3, natural catastrophe is the result of our distortion and also as catalyst to all 3rd Densities, but to those victims in catastrophe, what is the meaning to them, in other words, are there real innocent victims, or due to each victims' karma, to lose life in catastrophe is also like the catalyst as diseases.

[ayadew]

Hello qqliudl. Welcome to our forum. I am grateful to you for coming.

The veil of forgetfulness is strong, many a wanderer forgets their purpose. Our society does not really promote "awakening", as it's ruled by STS entities. We are all influenced by each other, all a part of the great hologram. The best way to help others is to simply be yourself, in a harmonic state. They will wonder and yearn for this harmony. I havn't found a better way.

An STS entity once said:

The only real and lasting Truth, is a 'self-realized' one. Messengers can come and go, and show you Truth until they're blue in the face, but it will not be Your Truth, until you have realized for yourself, deep within the Core of your Being, that it 'feels' True for you.

Hatonn (STO) speaks on the matter

There are many people upon your planet at this time who are attempting to cloud the memory of this truth. They are not aware of what they are doing. This is not their fault, but it is unfortunately the condition. It is not a simple task that we have outlined, and I am afraid it will require a great deal of effort. We have not been as successful as we had hoped to be when we initiated this project some years ago. The people of your planet do not actually wish to be awakened for the most part. Those who are sleeping very, very lightly are all too few. However, you will know them as you find them, and you will recognize their lightness of slumber by their activities, for they will not be as enmeshed in the insanity, if we can call it that, that is so prevalent on your world today.

To lose a life in a "catastrophe" or something similar is within the catalyst of free will, as is all things in this density. Our environment is fundamentally build around this. From this you can chose to try to prevent more catastrophes: STO oriented, or perhaps use it to invoke fear and control people: STS oriented.
Remember that time is an illusion, all parts of our holographic universe, all humans and enities, have all the time in the world to learn the lessons of each density. Death is just a catalyst.

Peace and love.

[Monica]

I agree with ayadew, and would add the following:

1. It's not really our task to evaluate other-selves, but it's natural to wonder. Don asked Ra questions about some historical figures, as to their polarity, and Ra's answers were sometimes surprising. The classic example is Hitler, whom everyone usually assumes to be the epitome of evil. While his actions were indisputably negative, his actual polarity wasn't quite so simplistically defined, due to confusion of his soul regarding motivation of said actions.

It can work that way with STO entities as well, apparently. Thus, the external actions are not necessarily an accurate indicator of motivation and, consequently, polarity.

Q'uo has stated that there's really not much distinction between a Wanderer and a Harvested/Harvestable STO entity. Undoubtedly many such beings are either awakening or polarizing rapidly, and evidence of this is quite apparent. Since we don't know their motivations, I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that their actions are genuine, and their true motivation in alignment with their actions.

And, if they are, as you say, kind, then why would we not think them loving? They don't have to be conscious of the need to learn love, in order to love. It only matters that they love.

2. I'm not quite sure what you're asking here...but regarding the Indians, do you mean Asian Indians or Native Americans? Either way, they undoubtedly have a great deal of spirituality in their respective culture.

3. Ra has explained that STO entities have a protection so they won't be caught in a catastrophe unless it is their personal karma...ie., they need or choose that particular catalyst or way to exit the Earth plane. But not because they were just 'in the wrong place at the wrong time.' In other words, they have a certain immunity to seemingly random acts triggered by group karma. STS entities do not have that protection, so they are more vulnerable. This is why STS entities may tend to have much more fear about impending disasters and seek shelters, because on some level, they know it's up to them to protect themselves.

This is NOT to say that anyone who tries to prepare for possible disasters is STS! I don't think Ra meant normal common sense and reasonable precautions. But we can't prepare for every possible contingency, so it's nice to know that we can relax a bit and trust our personal guidance.

Those STO's who do exit via catastrophes may have chosen it as a convenient route of departure...their transitions are swift and relatively painless, since they're just along for the ride and not for karmic reasons.

Not sure if I came anywhere close to answering your questions, but hope some of this helps! (If not...the usual...just discard!)

[ayadew]

Bring4th_Monica: Thank you for your post, I learned/remembered quite a lot of things from it.

[βαθμιαίος]

3. Ra has explained that STO entities have a protection so they won't be caught in a catastrophe unless it is their personal karma...ie., they need or choose that particular catalyst or way to exit the Earth plane. But not because they were just 'in the wrong place at the wrong time.' In other words, they have a certain immunity to seemingly random acts triggered by group karma.

It's not that STO entities are any less likely to suffer negative catalyst, just that they are much more likely than STS entities to seek to find the love and the light in their experiences, however difficult.

Here is the relevant Ra quote, from Session 95:

Questioner: From that statement I interpret the following. If the Experience of the Mind has sufficiently chosen the right-hand path, and as total purity is approached in the choosing of the right-hand path, then total imperviousness from the effect of the left-hand catalyst is also approached. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is exquisitely perceptive. The seeker which has purely chosen the service-to-others path shall certainly not have a variant apparent incarnational experience. There is no outward shelter in your illusion from the gusts, flurries, and blizzards of quick and cruel catalyst.

However, to the pure, all that is encountered speaks of the love and the light of the One Infinite Creator. The cruelest blow is seen with an ambiance of challenges offered and opportunities to come. Thusly, the great pitch of light is held high above such an one so that all interpretation may be seen to be protected by light.

[qqliudl]

ayadew,Bring4th_Monica and βαθμιαίος, thank you so much, I can now feel more love and peace on my confusion.
Love and Light~

[βαθμιαίος]

You're welcome!

I was thinking about your first question. In addition to what Monica said about Hitler, you might also take a look at what Ra said about Albert Schweitzer, who is an example of someone who was quite accomplished in our third-density illusion while also remaining highly radiant and balanced.

The whole lawofone.info category on what Ra said about different historical individuals is intriguing, IMO.

[Monica]

It's not that STO entities are any less likely to suffer negative catalyst, just that they are much more likely than STS entities to seek to find the love and the light in their experiences, however difficult.

Here is the relevant Ra quote, from Session 95:

Questioner: From that statement I interpret the following. If the Experience of the Mind has sufficiently chosen the right-hand path, and as total purity is approached in the choosing of the right-hand path, then total imperviousness from the effect of the left-hand catalyst is also approached. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is exquisitely perceptive. The seeker which has purely chosen the service-to-others path shall certainly not have a variant apparent incarnational experience. There is no outward shelter in your illusion from the gusts, flurries, and blizzards of quick and cruel catalyst.

However, to the pure, all that is encountered speaks of the love and the light of the One Infinite Creator. The cruelest blow is seen with an ambiance of challenges offered and opportunities to come. Thusly, the great pitch of light is held high above such an one so that all interpretation may be seen to be protected by light.

Agreed. More on this:

92.33 Questioner: The protection here seems to be depicted as being on the right-hand side but not the left. Would this indicate that there is protection for the positive path but not for the negative?

Ra: I am Ra. You perceive correctly an inborn bias offering to the seeing eye and listing ear information concerning the choice of the more efficient polarity.


There is also another angle to this, regarding group catalyst. It had to do with 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time' and something about STS entities not having the protection against large-scale catastrophes as do STO entities; hence their interest in finding 'safe zones.'

Book IV, Session 99

Questioner: The wings above Card Five, I am
guessing, have to do with a protection over the
Significator of the Mind. I am guessing that they are
a symbol of protection. Is this in any way correct?

Ra: I am Ra. Let us say that you are not incorrect
but rather less than correct. The Significator owns a
covenant with the spirit which it shall in some cases
manifest through the thought and action of the
adept. If there is protection in a promise, then you
have chosen the correct sound vibration, for the
outstretched wings of spirit, high above
manifestation, yet draw the caged mind onward.

Questioner: Thank you. In Card Number Six I see
the Transformation of the Mind, the male with
crossed arms, representing transformation. The
transformation is possible either toward the left or
the right-hand path. The path is beckoned or led by
the female, the Potentiator. The one on the right has
the serpent of wisdom at the brow and is fully
clothed, the one on the left having less clothing and
indicating that the Potentiator is more concerned or
attracted to the physical as the left-hand path is
chosen and more concerned and attracted to the
mental as the right-hand path is chosen.

The creature above points an arrow at the left-hand
path indicating that if this path is chosen the chips,
shall we say, will fall where they may, the path being
unprotected as far as the activity of catalyst. The
intellectual abilities of the chooser of the left-hand
path would be the main guardian rather than the
designed or built-in protection of the Logos for the
right-hand path. The entity firing the arrow seems to
be a second density entity which indicates that this
catalyst could be produced by a lesser evolved source,
you might say. Would Ra comment on these
observations?

Ra: I am Ra. We shall speak upon several aspects
seriatim. Firstly, let us examine the crossed arms of
the male who is to be transformed. What, O
student, do you make of the crossing? What see you
in this tangle? There is a creative point to be found
in this element which was not discussed overmuch
by the questioner.

Let us now observe the evaluation of the two
females. The observation that to the left-hand path
moves the roughly physical and to the right-hand
path the mental has a shallow correctness. There are
deeper observations to be made concerning the
relationship of the great sea of the unconscious mind
to the conscious mind which may fruitfully be
pursued. Remember, O student, that these images
are not literal. They haunt rather than explicate.
Many use the trunk and roots of mind as if that
portion of mind were a badly used, prostituted
entity. Then this entity gains from this great
storehouse that which is rough, prostituted, and
without great virtue. Those who turn to the deep
mind, seeing it in the guise of the maiden, go forth
to court it. The courtship has nothing of plunder in
its semblance and may be protracted, yet the treasure
gained by such careful courtship is great. The right-
hand and left-hand transformations of the mind may
be seen to differ by the attitude of the conscious
mind towards its own resources as well as the
resources of other-selves.

We now speak of that genie, or elemental, or mythic
figure, culturally determined, which sends the arrow
to the left-hand transformation. This arrow is not
the arrow which kills but rather that which, in its
own way, protects. Those who choose separation,
that being the quality most indicative of the left-
hand path, are protected from other-selves by a
strength and sharpness equivalent to the degree of
transformation which the mind has experienced in
the negative sense. Those upon the right-hand path
have no such protection against other-selves for
upon that path the doughty seeker shall find many
mirrors for reflection in each other-self it encounters.


There is yet another quote I am still looking for, which further elucidates this topic, and mentions a built-in protection against group catalyst...I'll post that when I find it. It might have been in a Q'uo session.

I had forgotten about the STO's not having that sharpness which seems inherent in STS entities. This is very revealing! It explains the adage "Why do the bad guys always take advantage of the good guys?"

[βαθμιαίος]

Monica,

Are you thinking of this (from session 95, immediately following the quote I posted above)?

Questioner: I have often wondered about the action of random and programmed catalyst with respect to the entity with the very strong positive or negative polarization. Would either polarity be free to a great extent from random catalyst such as great natural catastrophes or warfare or something like that which generates a lot of random catalyst in the physical vicinity of a highly polarized entity? Does this great cat, then, have an effect on such random catalyst on the right-hand path?

Ra: I am Ra. In two circumstances this is so. Firstly, if there has been the preincarnative choice that, for instance, one shall not take life in the service of the cultural group, events shall fall in a protective manner. Secondly, if any entity is able to dwell completely in unity the only harm that may occur to it is the changing of the outward physical, yellow-ray vehicle into the more light-filled mind/body/spirit complex’s vehicle by the process of death. All other suffering and pain is as nothing to one such as this.

We may note that this perfect configuration of the mind, body, and spirit complexes, while within the third-density vehicle, is extraordinarily rare.

Questioner: Am I to understand, then, that there is no protection at all if the Experience of the Mind has chosen the left-hand path and that path is traveled? All random catalyst may affect the negatively polarized individual as a function of the statistical nature of the random catalyst. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. You may note some of those of your peoples which, at this space/time nexus, seek places of survival. This is due to the lack of protection when service to self is invoked.

[Monica]

Yes!! That's it! Thanks!

[βαθμιαίος]

Yay!

The "events falling in a protective manner" Ra is talking about in that quote refers to protection against taking the life of others. Unfortunately for us as STO , there's no other protection from catalyst mentioned there. We do have protection (thank you great cat!) in our interpretations of catalyst.

Neither STO nor STS has any intrinsic protection from outward catalyst; it's just that STO entities find the love and the light in whatever happens to them while STS entities seek places of survival to protect themselves from the outward catalyst.

[Monica]

Yay!

The "events falling in a protective manner" Ra is talking about in that quote refers to protection against taking the life of others. Unfortunately for us as STO , there's no other protection from catalyst mentioned there. We do have protection (thank you great cat!) in our interpretations of catalyst.

Neither STO nor STS has any intrinsic protection from outward catalyst; it's just that STO entities find the love and the light in whatever happens to them while STS entities seek places of survival to protect themselves from the outward catalyst.

If by 'outward catalyst' you mean what we might consider random or 'group-karma' based incidents such as catastrophic events such as earthquakes, etc., then I would respectfully disagree.

I think there are 2 layers of meanings here: the one you mentioned (protection from being forced to engage in the harming of other selves; ie., participating in wars) and which I agree with, and the one I mentioned (protection from random or group karma-based catalyst; ie. earthquakes or other natural disasters).

The questioner stated:

The creature above points an arrow at the left-hand
path indicating that if this path is chosen the chips,
shall we say, will fall where they may, the path being
unprotected as far as the activity of catalyst. The
intellectual abilities of the chooser of the left-hand
path would be the main guardian rather than the
designed or built-in protection of the Logos for the
right-hand path.

...and no mention was made by Ra as to any error in this statement, so I perceived Ra to be in agreement with the statement. (Since Ra is usually pretty good about correcting errors.) Further confirmation came from the following statement:

You may note some of those of your peoples which, at this space/time nexus, seek places of survival. This is due to the lack of protection when service to self is invoked.

The seeking of 'safe zones' would reasonably seem to refer to surviving natural disasters, not fleeing from military service. The clear (imho) implication here is that STO's do have some protection and therefore do not need to seek places of survival, unless personally guided to do so. Hence, my interpretation that there is indeed some protection from natural disasters given to STO's.

That is not to say that an STO entity won't ever be harmed in a natural disaster. But if s/he is harmed or killed, it will be because it was his/her own karmic pattern, rather than just being caught in a random event; ie., being in the 'wrong place at the wrong time.'

[βαθμιαίος]

Hmm, we may just disagree, and that's fine.

How do you explain this quote? "The seeker which has purely chosen the service-to-others path shall certainly not have a variant apparent incarnational experience. There is no outward shelter in your illusion from the gusts, flurries, and blizzards of quick and cruel catalyst."

[Monica]

Hmm, we may just disagree, and that's fine.

That's ok! I still love you too!

How do you explain this quote? "The seeker which has purely chosen the service-to-others path shall certainly not have a variant apparent incarnational experience. There is no outward shelter in your illusion from the gusts, flurries, and blizzards of quick and cruel catalyst."

I think the key here is the distinction between personal catalyst and group-karma catalyst.

An entity's karma/pre-incarnational programming may attract a blizzard of seemingly cruel catalyst, and there is no protection for that, regardless of whether they are STO or STS.

But an STO entity won't be caught in a natural disaster, which is either a random catalyst or group-karma catalyst, unless it is also his/her personal catalyst.

Since there is no way an observer can tell what the nature of an other-self's catalyst is, on the surface an STO's life won't appear any easier than an STS' life.

Both have an 'edge' in some respect: The STS entity has an edge, a bias of protection, in their dealings with other-selves; ie., that 'sharpness' that was mentioned previously. The STO has an edge, a bias of protection, in their reduced susceptibility to random catalyst. So those 2 biases cancel each other out. Both are equal regarding personal catalyst. So the end result is that neither is actually easier than the other, at least when it comes to having catalyst manifested in their lives. Choosing the STO path does not guarantee a peachy incarnational experience.

That's my interpretation, For what it's worth.

[βαθμιαίος]

That's ok! I still love you too!

I don't think we really agree on this but I do think that we've each made interesting arguments and hopefully given anyone who might read this thread something to think about.

I do think I see an area we can agree on, though: As more and more of us choose harmony and peace the likelihood of catastrophic earth changes decreases.

[Monica]

Agreed!

[3D Sunset]

I think there are 2 layers of meanings here: the one you mentioned (protection from being forced to engage in the harming of other selves; ie., participating in wars) and which I agree with, and the one I mentioned (protection from random or group karma-based catalyst; ie. earthquakes or other natural disasters).

The questioner stated:

The creature above points an arrow at the left-hand
path indicating that if this path is chosen the chips,
shall we say, will fall where they may, the path being
unprotected as far as the activity of catalyst. The
intellectual abilities of the chooser of the left-hand
path would be the main guardian rather than the
designed or built-in protection of the Logos for the
right-hand path.

...and no mention was made by Ra as to any error in this statement, so I perceived Ra to be in agreement with the statement. (Since Ra is usually pretty good about correcting errors.)

I must differ with you here, Monica. In the third paragraph of Ra's response to the questions, Ra clearly states:

Ra, Book IV, Session 99

We now speak of that genie, or elemental, or mythic figure, culturally determined, which sends the arrow to the left-hand transformation. This arrow is not the arrow which kills but rather that which, in its own way, protects. Those who choose separation, that being the quality most indicative of the left-hand path, are protected from other-selves by a strength and sharpness equivalent to the degree of transformation which the mind has experienced in the negative sense. Those upon the right-hand path have no such protection against other-selves for upon that path the doughty seeker shall find many mirrors for reflection in each other-self it encounters.

So you see, Ra indicates that the arrow actually represent protection for those seeking separation (i.e., STS), who are protected from other selves by their strength of will. I have to agree with βαθμιαίος on this one. The protection for all, is within ourselves.

As for the survivalists seeking protection, I think your quote is out of context. The statement is made after this precursor questions:

Ra Book IV, Session 95

Questioner: I have often wondered about the action of random and programmed catalyst with respect to the entity with the very strong positive or negative polarization. Would either polarity be free to a great extent from random catalyst such as great natural catastrophes or warfare or something like that which generates a lot of random catalyst in the physical vicinity of a highly polarized entity? Does this great cat, then, have an effect on such random catalyst on the right-hand path?

Ra: I am Ra. In two circumstances this is so. Firstly, if there has been the preincarnative choice that, for instance, one shall not take life in the service of the cultural group, events shall fall in a protective manner. Secondly, if any entity is able to dwell completely in unity the only harm that may occur to it is the changing of the outward physical, yellow-ray vehicle into the more light-filled mind/body/spirit complex’s vehicle by the process of death. All other suffering and pain is as nothing to one such as this.

We may note that this perfect configuration of the mind, body, and spirit complexes, while within the third-density vehicle, is extraordinarily rare.

From this I interpret the statement you quote as indicating that those of the left hand path have no protection because they don't fit either of the above cases (strong commitment of preincarnative choices, and the rare entity dwelling completely in unity). Ra's latter statement that you quote is in response to Don's questions "Am I to understand, then, that there is no protection at all if the Experience of the Mind has chosen the left-hand path and that path is traveled?", which Ra's answers in the affirmative, there is no protection for those who chose the left-hand path because they do not meet the above criteria. That is not to say that all STO entities do meet those criteria. Still, it seems that our best protection is our faith and confidence that everything that happens serves the purpose of allowing the One Creator to better experience himself.

Just weighing in,

3D Sunset

[Monica]

So you see, Ra indicates that the arrow actually represent protection for those seeking separation (i.e., STS), who are protected from other selves by their strength of will. I have to agree with βαθμιαίος on this one. The protection for all, is within ourselves.

I agree with your statement, but I don't think it negates my interpretation.

As for the survivalists seeking protection, I think your quote is out of context. The statement is made after this precursor questions:

Ra Book IV, Session 95

Questioner: I have often wondered about the action of random and programmed catalyst with respect to the entity with the very strong positive or negative polarization. Would either polarity be free to a great extent from random catalyst such as great natural catastrophes or warfare or something like that which generates a lot of random catalyst in the physical vicinity of a highly polarized entity? Does this great cat, then, have an effect on such random catalyst on the right-hand path?

Ra: I am Ra. In two circumstances this is so. Firstly, if there has been the preincarnative choice that, for instance, one shall not take life in the service of the cultural group, events shall fall in a protective manner. Secondly, if any entity is able to dwell completely in unity the only harm that may occur to it is the changing of the outward physical, yellow-ray vehicle into the more light-filled mind/body/spirit complex’s vehicle by the process of death. All other suffering and pain is as nothing to one such as this.

We may note that this perfect configuration of the mind, body, and spirit complexes, while within the third-density vehicle, is extraordinarily rare.

From this I interpret the statement you quote as indicating that those of the left hand path have no protection because they don't fit either of the above cases (strong commitment of preincarnative choices, and the rare entity dwelling completely in unity). Ra's latter statement that you quote is in response to Don's questions "Am I to understand, then, that there is no protection at all if the Experience of the Mind has chosen the left-hand path and that path is traveled?", which Ra's answers in the affirmative, there is no protection for those who chose the left-hand path because they do not meet the above criteria. That is not to say that all STO entities do meet those criteria. Still, it seems that our best protection is our faith and confidence that everything that happens serves the purpose of allowing the One Creator to better experience himself.

I understand your point, and it's a valid interpretation. However, this statement by Ra still raises the question:

You may note some of those of your peoples which, at this space/time nexus, seek places of survival. This is due to the lack of protection when service to self is invoked.

...because, if all entities, whether STS or STO, have the same degree of protection (or no protection, as the case may be) regarding random catalyst, then why would Ra say This is due to the lack of protection when service to self is invoked ...?

If the lack of protection is the same for everyone, then the need for some people to seek places of survival would not be due to their STS polarity...it would just be the same way it is for STO entities.

On the surface, the statements seem to contradict each other. The one statement that does seem to resolve the paradox is:

However, to the pure, all that is encountered speaks of the love and the light of the One Infinite Creator. The cruelest blow is seen with an ambiance of challenges offered and opportunities to come. Thusly, the great pitch of light is held high above such an one so that all interpretation may be seen to be protected by light.

Perhaps we are both right. Perhaps there really isn't a distinction in terms of protection for STO vs STS regarding random catalyst, but the difference is that STO will perceive themselves protected, and therefore is protected. The end result is still the same...protection...so there is a distinction after all! Whether the protection is inherent, or because they got it because of their trust and belief, does it really matter? The end result is still...protection. Whether it's 'real' protection or only 'perceived' protection, does it really matter? The STS entity perceives no such protection and thus feels the need to seek safe zones.

Another angle to this is:

Does random catalyst (natural disasters etc.) override individual karma/preincarnational programming?

If it's not within the parameters of the entity's preincarnational programming to, say, die in an earthquake, then how could they die in an earthquake? Is there really any conflict here? Or are both of our viewpoints elegantly resolved when we seek resolution of paradox? In other words, is it really an 'either-or' proposition? or are we making it into that? We seem to be debating 'either' there is no protection for the STO 'or' there is...maybe we're not seeing the big picture here. If the STO perceives all events as being protected by the Light, then why are we even questioning how/why such events could be random, as though they were a 'bad' thing?

It seems to me that to adopt an attitude of "Ra said I am subject to random catalyst with no more protection than an STS entity" would be to open the door to fear. Maybe I am being overly optimistic here...maybe I am misinterpreting Ra's words...but I see both intepretations to be equally valid, due to the seemingly contradictory nature of the 2 statements...so we all have to make a choice here, as to which interpretation we want to accept.

I readily acknowledge that your interpretation is just as valid as mine...and I could be wrong...but since it's not conclusive either way, I think I would prefer to remain in faith that I will have protection...I prefer to look at the big picture, by incorporating other statements made by Ra, such as the concept of a holographic UniVerse...thus, my beliefs contribute to which possibility in the possibility/probability vortex occurs.

---

[βαθμιαίος]

It seems to me that to adopt an attitude of "Ra said I am subject to random catalyst with no more protection than an STS entity" would be to open the door to fear.

For me it's not that way. I don't have a problem being subject to whatever random catalyst the winds of fate may throw my way because I know that I am protected in my interpretation. I have completely free will to decide what the events in my life mean to me and how I want to respond to them.

That being said, I don't disagree that "you get what you pay for" and that to the extent I can remain centered in love and forgiveness I am healing whatever karma I have and hence, hopefully, lightening the catalyst that is coming my way.

I think the key for me is that catalyst is not a bad thing. It's what helps us grow.

All that assaults your senses is catalyst. We, in speaking to this support group through this instrument, offer catalyst. The configurations of each in the group of body offer catalyst through comfort/discomfort. In fact all that is unprocessed that has come before the notice of a mind/body/spirit complex is catalyst.

[3D Sunset]

I readily acknowledge that your interpretation is just as valid as mine...and I could be wrong...but since it's not conclusive either way, I think I would prefer to remain in faith that I will have protection...I prefer to look at the big picture, by incorporating other statements made by Ra, such as the concept of a holographic UniVerse...thus, my beliefs contribute to which possibility in the possibility/probability vortex occurs.

Dearest Monica, whatever do you need protection from? There are no accidents, just surprises!

Why do you hold so tightly to your need for protection from a higher source due to your polarization? Are you saying that if you are caught in an earthquake and find yourself dying, then you will lose your faith? Of course not! Even while slowly dying of dehydration in the dark tomb of what was once your office building, after you have done everything you can to help your fellow victims, will you not rejoice in the opportunity to leave this world full of love in your heart?

This is your protection - yes your protection is your faith - your faith that everything that happens is yet another opportunity to serve others and the One Infinite Creator. You have no fear - not because you will not be unpleasantly surprised, or hurt or even killed by some unexpected calamity - but because you find the love in every situation and remain faithful that all will work out as it should.

I recently re-watched the movie "The Vanishing" with Sandra Bullock and Kiefer Sutherland. In one scene, the character of Kiefer Sutherland is buried alive in a coffin in order to "experience exactly what his girlfriend experienced" when she vanished four years earlier. I propose that if one can find the love in that situation, then they are truly protected from anything.

That's my real point. What Ra meant or didn't mean is really immaterial, all that matters is what we carry in our hearts. If we carry peace and love, then nothing that happens to us will cause fear, and thus we have the greatest protection in the universe.

3D Sunset

[Monica]

3D, we are saying exactly the same thing!

[Quantum]

Dearest Monica, whatever do you need protection from?

....Why do you hold so tightly to your need for protection from a higher source due to your polarization?

3D Sunset

This thread "About Social Values" has become a most interesting one to be sure. It seems that indeed, as is the case with the entire Ra Material, that an inherent "equal-time/balanced/no greater path choice outcome(s) than the other" is a "built in device mechanism of the game", as it were, in this 3D experience. To digress for a moment, I believe that the inefficiency of either path comes only into real question at the end of 6th density, when at last the left hand path no longer finds it as efficient to go further into negative polarization due to the inefficiency of that choice. In other words, it becomes as though a dead-end, due to the inertia of that path, and thus the only efficient path left is as though a consolidated and merged choice from that point forward by the STS choice-maker into/onto the right hand path. Now, this becomes an altogether different topic and thread which I still wrestle with as a conundrum, in as much as "what happened to the karma"(?), where is the balancing for the 'actions taken' to have polarized so far into the negative, 'sometimes' horrific to others - if just a so-so STS'er, and more oft truly ghastly horrific- if a proficient STS'er , e.g. Genghis Khan, and how does karma then even apply to the negative path? It is inherently understood that he depolarizes if he helps a little old lady cross the street, but what does that karma look like as the balancer , verses the clearer balancing of the STO'er not helping her cross coming back as a little old lady not helped to cross?

Clearly as a presumed child of light it is difficult to see in the dark(and so I don't get it but for a moment [when I do] before losing it again), in as much as would an STS child of dark have equal difficulty navigating and seeing in the light (he don't get it either). As assuredly then, an STS'er potentially would ask the same of where the payoff is in choosing the right hand path. So we come full circle to the balance between the two as being as efficient as the other for the moment.

But, is there a protection mechanism for either path, is the question. Yes, would seem to be the middle answer for both. Would this not stand to reason, given that both paths are equally efficient at this 3D juncture?
It seems that the left hand path has a built in protection of 'distrust of others', and thus he is more on his own to discern, to the point of living and dying by the Axiom "that if it is to be, it's up to me." The right handed path seems also in a sense to have this built in mechanism of protection as well in as much as he is more "led", as it were, by giving way to his faith in those certain somethings outside of himself existing, as opposed to only himself. Both are as presumably efficient as the other, until either is not. In other words, one may seem as having been more efficient in one case, whereas the other less so in that same case, but vice-versa in the next. Thus it appears in one instance that the bad guys almost always seem to prosper and get ahead more easily...until they don't, and are caught to burn in their own flames, verses the good guys almost always seemingly being rewarded and honored for their goodness, until they burn in their naivete for having been "The Fool" (Tarot) for having made 'the choice' to trust in anything outside of himself. Both paths have as much efficiency as the other. Both paths have as much protection as the other. Both paths have as much hardship as the other. Both paths have as much reward as the other. Both paths have as much folly as the other. Both choice-makers on either path are the "Fools" of the Tarot on either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Questioner: I am assuming that she (preistess) sits between the different colored columns, with the dark one on her left, to indicate at this position an equal opportunity for the potentiation of the mind to be of the negative or positive nature. Would Ra comment on this?

Ra: I am Ra. Although this is correct it is not as perceptive as the notice that the Priestess, as this figure has been called, sits within a structure in which polarity, symbolized as you correctly noted by the light and dark pillars, is an integral and necessary part. The unfed mind has no polarity just as intelligent infinity has none. The nature of the sub-sub-sub-Logos which offers the third-density experience is one of polarity, not by choice but by careful design.

We perceive an unclear statement. The polarity of Potentiator is there not for the Matrix to choose. It is there for the Matrix to accept as given.

Questioner: The protection here seems to be depicted as being on the right-hand side but not the left. Would this indicate that there is protection for the positive path but not for the negative?

Ra: I am Ra. You perceive correctly an inborn bias offering to the seeing eye and listing ear information concerning the choice of the more efficient polarity.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
and then there is:

Ra, Book IV, Session 99

We now speak of that genie, or elemental, or mythic figure, culturally determined, which sends the arrow to the left-hand transformation. This arrow is not the arrow which kills but rather that which, in its own way, protects. Those who choose separation, that being the quality most indicative of the left-hand path, are protected from other-selves by a strength and sharpness equivalent to the degree of transformation which the mind has experienced in the negative sense. Those upon the right-hand path have no such protection against other-selves for upon that path the doughty seeker shall find many mirrors for reflection in each other-self it encounters.
_______________________________________________________________

Both "protections" , as seen above, seem to hold true in a sense for either, but perhaps in differing contexts. The Logos clearly has a bias towards the positive, as we all know, and thus may slightly offer this "without the asking" for those on the positive path, whereas it may be "there for the taking" for those on the negative. Both may ultimately balance the other as far as greater protection offered to either.

.....What Ra meant or didn't mean is really immaterial, all that matters is what we carry in our hearts....

In the interim, surely it is of service to all that it is a given that we are here to challenge ourselves to a higher ground of understanding as regards the LOO , and thus it is a given that the LOO is given to us solely, or shall we agree, most uniquely, by Ra. This then makes EVERYTHING Ra teaches, with respect to same, as "EXTREMELY MATERIAL" , verses what Ra meant/means as immaterial, not withstanding that indeed "all we carry in our hearts is all that matters".

In German there exist two words: 'Ja' (pronounced - ya) for yes, and 'Nein' (pronounced - nine) for no. There exists a third non-word utilized by the clever with tongue in cheek; that word is Jein, (pronounced Yine). Both may be truer, more oft than not, as they are false.

Aufweidersehen for the moment,

Q

[βαθμιαίος]

Now, this becomes an altogether different topic and thread which I still wrestle with as a conundrum, in as much as "what happened to the karma"(?), where is the balancing for the 'actions taken' to have polarized so far into the negative, 'sometimes' horrific to others - if just a so-so STS'er, and more oft truly ghastly horrific- if a proficient STS'er , e.g. Genghis Khan, and how does karma then even apply to the negative path?

Yes, I suppose it's off-topic (although the whole thread is only partially on-topic given that we just briefly answered poor qqliudl's first question and haven't even addressed his/her second one). But I think your question about karma is intriguing.

Could it be that the negative path gains karma through failure to control, just as the postive path gains karma through failure to accept? That would mean that a sixth-density negative entity would have very little karma, since it can presumably control just about all interactions.

I found two relevant Ra quotes, one that could be construed to support the argument I'm making and one that does not seem to support it. In deference to the thread I will only post the links and then we can decide whether to continue the discussion here, elsewhere, or not at all.

Supporting quote.
Non-supporting quote.

BTW, qqliudl, feel free to jump in here and get this thread back on track!

[Quantum]

[quote='Quantum' pid='1030' dateline='1233624569']Now, this becomes an altogether different topic and thread which I still wrestle with as a conundrum, in as much as "what happened to the karma"(?), where is the balancing for the 'actions taken' to have polarized so far into the negative, 'sometimes' horrific to others - if just a so-so STS'er, and more oft truly ghastly horrific- if a proficient STS'er , e.g. Genghis Khan, and how does karma then even apply to the negative path?

Could it be that the negative path gains karma through failure to control, just as the postive path gains karma through failure to accept? That would mean that a sixth-density negative entity would have very little karma, since it can presumably control just about all interactions.
BTW, qqliudl, feel free to jump in here and get this thread back on track!

I leave it to the group, and qqliuid in particular, to offer if we pick up the 2nd part of the question/thread, or side-track, as conversations are wont to do, to this one? We may offer this as a different thread entirely should you wish qquild? I thank you 'βαθμιαίος' for your response (btw: forgive me for being naive, is this a foreign language, alphabet, and name, and if so it's meaning, or unique?). I suppose my conundrum is that I see the term karma more or less in the colloquial sense, as opposed to your question which lies more towards polarity. Failure to control verses failure to accept is depolarizing to be sure for either. Where is the karma and what does it look like is more my question as regards the left hand path? I would offer that most of the community here, as well as else where, even superficially versed in esoteric literature, or even with a nominal main-street understanding of the term Karma, might be able to offer untold examples of the way karma might look. But I would also offer that in most, if not all examples offered, that it would almost always show up as a balancing more for the right hand path verses of what an example might look like for karma as regards the left hand path. To be factitious, is one traversing the left hand path then loved, respected, revered, honored, and forgiven all the more, until he recoils in the love and light as his punishment? If he were to love to a fault, does he then return to be loved even more as a punitive lesson to teach him to manipulate and control again? What does karma look like for the left hand path? If he has done horrific things to other selves, then presumably he's pretty damn good at what he does, and as a result reaps the reward for being generally a pretty nasty guy. So then, as a thought exercise, what if he turns in battle out of love or camaraderie to save his comrade the fellow nasty? Does he lose for having done so by being loved, honored, and eternally thanked by said comrade and family, rather than having continued the battle? STO not only depolarizes when he fails to love, but returns to suffer in obvious form if he overextends. How does STS return for having made the same mistake of overextending by not controlling, not manipulating, not overpowering etc? Even in the Ra quotes offered above, I find the karma definition to be more, if not altogether, offered as regards the right hand path.

[3D Sunset]

To digress for a moment, I believe that the inefficiency of either path comes only into real question at the end of 6th density, when at last the left hand path no longer finds it as efficient to go further into negative polarization due to the inefficiency of that choice. In other words, it becomes as though a dead-end, due to the inertia of that path, and thus the only efficient path left is as though a consolidated and merged choice from that point forward by the STS choice-maker into/onto the right hand path.

For what it's worth, I believe that in mid sixth density both polarities must give up their potential difference and the resulting path is neither STS or STO, it is at unity... balanced. I believe that it is our prejudice against STS that causes us to view them "coming over to STO". In reality, I think we meet in the middle, which is probably more familiar to STO than STS entities. I think that this is why Ra refers to it as STS becoming STO in order to progress further. Does it not make more sense that purely positive entities need to embrace more of the concept of "self" in order to experience the ultimate melding with the ONE Creator? How, for example will they ever progress in 7th density of they keep feeling the need to go help all these poor schleps wallowing away in 3D all the time. Isn't it a selfish act to abandon them for your own selfish advancement in spirituality?

"what happened to the karma"(?), where is the balancing for the 'actions taken' to have polarized so far into the negative, 'sometimes' horrific to others - if just a so-so STS'er, and more oft truly ghastly horrific- if a proficient STS'er , e.g. Genghis Khan, and how does karma then even apply to the negative path?

An excellent question. I think the problem with most people's view of karma, is that they think of it as some cosmic judge who watches actions, then rewards "good" actions and punishes "bad" actions. In my opinion, this is a relic of our many good intentioned, but poorly executed religions.

I prefer to think of karma as attachment. If you are attached to an action, event, or experience (good or bad) you will bring it back to you. Thus, most people that do "bad" things have at least some sliver of remorse (most often they have significant remorse, especially living in the midst of controlling religions in a sub-logos that is biased toward STO). This remorse is a form of attachment, related to the inability to forgive oneself. Thus, the attachment to the action brings it back. Depending upon the individual's thoughts, beliefs and intents thereof, this replaying could be in any role (aggressor, victim, bystander, etc.). The point is that the attachment is what causes the experience to be repeated. IMHO harvestable STO entities simply have no attachment to their actions, thus no karma is created. Ra stated that even wanderers can get caught in the web of karma, and must stay in 3D until the karma is spent. Thus, I conclude that harvestable 3D STS and STO entities have no karmic attachment to 3D. Yes, taken to its extreme, this means that true sociopaths may not be creating karma at all! Similarly, it means that people strongly attached to their positive actions are creating karma that will cause them to be repeated. Thus, one must "forgive" their good deeds as well as their "trespasses". (Can't wait to hear the feedback on this one.)

This then makes EVERYTHING Ra teaches, with respect to same, as "EXTREMELY MATERIAL" , verses what Ra meant/means as immaterial, not withstanding that indeed "all we carry in our hearts is all that matters".

Fair enough, dear friend. I probably overstated my point there in the process of seeking compromise. Still, it seemed that we'd gotten to the point of splitting hairs around Ra's words (tantamount, I think, to arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of pin), so I was asking that we step back and look at the actionable message.

So, is there protection from the slings and arrows of random catalyst? Yes, I think so, but in my opinion, the protection is in how we view and respond to the event. May there be some steering of us away from such unfortunate situations? I would say, of course! Are not those strongly polarized entities more in touch with their intuitive side? And would not the higher self and myriad of protecting angels (while not dancing on heads of pins, of course) take advantage of this to steer us away from unnecessary danger? And would not these services be equally available to our STS brethren? I think they would.


Just my rambling thoughts,

3D Sunset

[Quantum]

"what happened to the karma"(?), where is the balancing for the 'actions taken' to have polarized so far into the negative, 'sometimes' horrific to others - if just a so-so STS'er, and more oft truly ghastly horrific- if a proficient STS'er , e.g. Genghis Khan, and how does karma then even apply to the negative path?

An excellent question.
Thus, I conclude that harvestable 3D STS and STO entities have no karmic attachment to 3D. Yes, taken to its extreme, this means that true sociopaths may not be creating karma at all! Similarly, it means that people strongly attached to their positive actions are creating karma that will cause them to be repeated. Thus, one must "forgive" their good deeds as well as their "trespasses". (Can't wait to hear the feedback on this one.)

This then makes EVERYTHING Ra teaches, with respect to same, as "EXTREMELY MATERIAL" , verses what Ra meant/means as immaterial, not withstanding that indeed "all we carry in our hearts is all that matters".

Fair enough, dear friend. I probably overstated my point there in the process of seeking compromise. Still, it seemed that we'd gotten to the point of splitting hairs around Ra's words (tantamount, I think, to arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of pin), so I was asking that we step back and look at the actionable message.

Just my rambling thoughts,

3D Sunset

Dear 3D,

Well said my friend. Interesting responses. And compromise has been reached between the juxtaposing and educational dialogs between yourself and Monica. It is for these dialogs I hope that we are in fact here for. Let us challenge one another then, to sharpen the pencil as it were.

Given I have yet developed the aptitude of seeing in the dark, given that I see through a glass dimly even in the light, I must retire to my corner for a moment to contemplate the very point I was alluding to of "where is the karma for the dark path" by your thought exercise of suggesting the very thought I feared: "Yes, taken to its extreme, this means that true sociopaths may not be creating karma at all!" Its a mind-bending exercise to assume this position, even if only an exercise. But please continue 3D, allow us to step it down a few notches then, what does a karmic response look like manifested in daily experience for a lessor nasty deed verses no karma at all. I again offer that we may give an unlimited amount of responses with respect to what STO karmic responses might look like.

Inquisitively,if not dimly yours,

Q

[βαθμιαίος]

I thank you 'βαθμιαίος' for your response (btw: forgive me for being naive, is this a foreign language, alphabet, and name, and if so it's meaning, or unique?).

I added an expanation to my profile.
.

...what does a karmic response look like manifested in daily experience for a lessor nasty deed verses no karma at all.

You get another opportunity to attempt to control or be controlled in a similar situation.

[3D Sunset]

Given I have yet developed the aptitude of seeing in the dark, given that I see through a glass dimly even in the light,

To be clear: I only offer my perspective, I profess no better grasp of this or any cosmic truth than can I grasp a cloud. What I have learned is that it is much easier to hold a cloud in your mind, than in your hand. Hence my thought exercises.

But please continue 3D, allow us to step it down a few notches then, what does a karmic response look like manifested in daily experience for a lessor nasty deed verses no karma at all.

Hmmm. Okay then, let's grope around in dark together, shall we? If karma is attachment, then the "karma" is associated with whatever one was attached to. It would seem to me that in a STS entity, these attachments may be quite different than in an STO entity.

Let's consider a negatively polarized serial killer. They may be attached to the pain, fear and suffering they cause an otherself. Thus they would be destined to replay the scenario over and over because they are attached to the feelings they experience (this brings into focus my point about STO entities being attached to "good" actions). Note that the "cosmic judge" is actually the Higher Self that recognizes the attachment and offers new opportunities to relinquish it. So the basic mechanism is the same for STS and STO. Attachment attracts similar experiences in order to release the attachment (in Ra's terms, "forgive").

Now you may ask, what about the "victims"? To me, they are either experiencing the results of their own karmic attachments, or a preplanned or random catalyst introduced or allowed by the Higher Self to facilitate or increase polarization. The result of this catalyst may well be karmic attachment, if the catalyst is not processed efficiently and both the self (for allowing the situation to occur) and the other self (for perpetrating the act) are forgiven.

Then again, I may be crazy. But it's an interesting thing to think about, anyway.

3D Sunset

[Quantum]

I said: Given I have yet developed the aptitude of seeing in the dark, given that I see through a glass dimly even in the light,

You said: What I have learned is that it is much easier to hold a cloud in your mind, than in your hand.

Poetic and profound. Nicely said.

But please continue 3D, allow us to step it down a few notches then, what does a karmic response look like manifested in daily experience for a lessor nasty deed verses no karma at all.

Hmmm. Okay then, let's grope around in dark together, shall we? ... It would seem to me that in a STS entity, these attachments may be quite different than in an STO entity. Let's consider a negatively polarized serial killer. They may be attached to the pain, fear and suffering they cause an otherself. Thus they would be destined to replay the scenario over and over because they are attached to the feelings they experience ...Now you may ask, what about the "victims"? To me, they are either experiencing the results of their own karmic attachments, or a preplanned or random catalyst introduced or allowed by the Higher Self to facilitate or increase polarization. The result of this catalyst may well be karmic attachment, if the catalyst is not processed efficiently and both the self (for allowing the situation to occur) and the other self (for perpetrating the act) are forgiven...Then again, I may be crazy. But it's an interesting thing to think about, anyway.
3D Sunset

Quite a fascinating discussion actually. A bit like having a look at 4d with a 3d mindset, much as in a 3d example of the optical illusion allowing one to often only grasp the fleeting image for a moment just before losing it again. It seems your suggesting the poor lessor lad, being the "Karmic STS Serial Killer", is doomed to repeat the killing as a result of being attached to the killing, verses having turned his higher attention to perhaps something more majestik, such as to controlling more proficiently, thus gaining polarization? Were he to be the more grand, seasoned and proficient STS'er , he would serial kill should he chose to, in order to control, manipulate, dominate, etc, in the effort of gaining polarity by depolarizing the other, or, and here is your key and point, be free to allow himself "not to kill' were he more powerfully able to gracefully simply terrorize mentally instead, by perhaps subjugating the other-self without the thought of killing at all but evoke the sense of same through mental terror and fear alone, were it to depolarize more the other self than the killing act? The lessor STS is simply attached to killing, whether it polarizes or not. The higher STS'er is free to be a truer nastier nasty, a master if you will, and thus able to polarize ever more, either through serial killing, or not serial killing, but never attached to it irrespectively.

The lessor lad of the STS is the much like the anguished serial killer portrayed so oft in the Hollywood version of the pained and tortured soul who can't help himself (trapped in his own hell - karma), whist the Higher Grander Darker STS'er is a truly darker soul who takes not so much delight in the kill as much as the mastery of the depolarization of the other, much like the "Quickening" in "The Highlander" movie, if you will forgive extending the Hollywood analogy (his heaven - karma).

If one is aware by presence alone of an awakened soul serving in the STO, and that it would be hard to miss, according to Ra, then it stands to reason that it may be as hard to miss an awakened STS'er as well? But it equally stands to reason that he may be more elegant at camouflaging his proficiency much like the wolf in sheep's clothing.

Here comes full circle again...where I begin to lose the image of understanding or seeing the optical illusion as it begins to fade yet again: Coming back to repeat the killings as a punitive lesson in karma remains a difficult concept to grasp. It is mind bending experiment to hold it in consciousness, even if but for a moment, and yet perhaps expands understanding of the LOO as an exercise in the exercise of having done so.

[3D Sunset]

It seems your suggesting the poor lessor lad, being the "Karmic STS Serial Killer", is doomed to repeat the killing as a result of being attached to the killing, verses having turned his higher attention to perhaps something more majestik, such as to controlling more proficiently, thus gaining polarization?

The nature of STS is to control. If one is attached to any feeling or emotion, they are not in control, rather they are controlled.

Were he to be the more grand, seasoned and proficient STS'er , he would serial kill should he chose to, in order to control, manipulate, dominate, etc, in the effort of gaining polarity by depolarizing the other, or, and here is your key and point, be free to allow himself "not to kill' were he more powerfully able to gracefully simply terrorize mentally instead, by perhaps subjugating the other-self without the thought of killing at all but evoke the sense of same through mental terror and fear alone, were it to depolarize more the other self than the killing act?

My, you really hold STS in high regard. Perhaps my choice of the serial killer was a little too provocative. Let me say, as a brief tangent, that I do not feel that most harvestable STS entities are nearly as "evil" as this. Indeed, I think a significant number of people in the public eye, as it were, are such harvestable STS entities. In many ways, the actions of a high profile STO and STS entity might even be the same, it is the intent behind the action that makes the difference. That said, one can be certain that, given a situation where an STS entity must choose between themselves and an otherself, they will always choose themselves first. They needn't "gain polarity by depolarizing the other", although they certainly could.

...and thus able to polarize ever more, either through serial killing, or not serial killing, but never attached to it irrespectively.

Indeed, for any highly polarized entity, the service is the focus, everything else is process, which is quite secondary.

The lessor lad of the STS is the much like the anguished serial killer portrayed so oft in the Hollywood version of the pained and tortured soul who can't help himself (trapped in his own hell - karma), whist the Higher Grander Darker STS'er is a truly darker soul who takes not so much delight in the kill as much as the mastery of the depolarization of the other, much like the "Quickening" in "The Highlander" movie, if you will forgive extending the Hollywood analogy (his heaven - karma).

A fair statement, given my caveat earlier about not needing to depolarize another in order to gain polarity for himself. I would restate slightly as "takes not so much delight in the kill as much as the mastery of the self and other self"

If one is aware by presence alone of an awakened soul serving in the STO, and that it would be hard to miss, according to Ra, then it stands to reason that it may be as hard to miss an awakened STS'er as well? But it equally stands to reason that he may be more elegant at camouflaging his proficiency much like the wolf in sheep's clothing.

I believe that both would be hard to miss, even in a crowded room. I believe that this is a part of what we refer to as "charisma". We've all met the people that are simply fun to be around, and seem always at the top of their universe. Examine these and how they use their resources and abilities and I think you will find you have quite a discerning eye.

Here comes full circle again...where I begin to lose the image of understanding or seeing the optical illusion as it begins to fade yet again: Coming back to repeat the killings as a punitive lesson in karma remains a difficult concept to grasp. It is mind bending experiment to hold it in consciousness, even if but for a moment, and yet perhaps expands understanding of the LOO as an exercise in the exercise of having done so.

Let's lose the concept of "punitive". The attachment brings back what one desires. At a metaphysical level, the real "desire" is to progress. One cannot progress with these 3D attachments, thus the Higher self, though the universe provides the opportunity to resolve the attachment. A simple case of cause and effect. "Forgiveness" or "Love" (of self and/or the otherself) breaks the bond of attachment.

Or such is my hypothesis.

3D Sunset