"The experience of no need to find the necessary emolument."

[ScottK]

Would this discussion on Adonai even have started if he was the female in the marriage? An interesting question to ponder..

[Steppingfeet]

Simply put, Adonai doesn't want to be a slave to another person. He explained his rationale and has an agreement in place to do what he wants. What's wrong with that? It's all free will.. To think that Adonai would follow societal norms is the real laugher as Adonai has fully constructed his own norms. I can only wish him well on his choices.

From what little I know of you, Adonai One, I agree with ScottK that it would indeed be funny to imagine you following societal norms. I am impressed by your tenacity in sticking to a path of your own construction, to hell with external feedback.

I genuinely mean that as a note of hats-off-respect toyou.

And ScottK, your question about gender is valid and good. Though for my own tiny post in this discussion isn't gender-based. My own particular thoughts would apply regardless of which gender was doing what.

: ) GLB

[Ankh]

Would this discussion on Adonai even have started if he was the female in the marriage? An interesting question to ponder..

I don't care which gender pays for which. My point was that Adonai said that he has a balanced acceptance of a certain catalyst, but it turned out that he is not exposed to this catalyst. An acceptance of any catalyst is to experience it, and then finding an inner balance. Then this discussion did go astray indeed. Adonai said that money means nothing to him. Well, that's easy to say when someone else is paying for you! My point here is again, not about genders, but that saying "I don't like this money system", and yet still living *within* this system (by having someone else to pay for everything for you), which in my eyes is a hypocracy.

[Icipher]

On the whole tax issue, government is coersion which is STS, and therefore antithetical to a free society. If Adonai did live in the woods, government would still want him to pay taxes. Thus from a LOO/voluntarist/agarist standpoint taxes are moot as Swedes and hermits alike have their free will restricted by government, which is catalyst as well (obviously).

[Adonai One]

Making such a big deal of the Ra Material and then refusing to engage in what the Ra Material would call "yellow ray work" which, according to the material is the point of 3rd density seems awfully strange.

Since this has been discerned as off-topic I will leave it at this:

I have never read a passage in the Law of One saying any ray work must be resolved in a certain, absolute way.

I will make a new thread for this question and link it here.

---

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=9115

[xise]

As I said, there is nothing wrong with this philosophy of not liking the money, living in the woods, growing its own food etc. It's awesome! But talking about it and saying that one does not like money and thus doesn't want to participate in this system by not getting a job or other way of getting food on the table, and yet still live in the system and taking advantage of it by other people paying for your food and living, is hypocracy and reminds me of parasitism.

One could easily argue that modern society is a parasitism on the Earth. Every car we use (even electric), pollute and harms mother earth. No matter how organic and/or vegan we are, we use products that harm humans, animals, plants, and the environment due the vast amount of chemicals in nearly every modern item or the amount of environmental damaged caused by creating an item, whether building materials to makeup that was tested on animals or wood items created in the wake of deforestation. The only way around is to live in the woods in a cabin you build from your bare hands. However, I agree with you that it makes sense to care about how much we take from others, be it the plants, animals, Gaia, or other humans. I would also agree that it's not useful to force people to give to others because then it just begets a sense of bitterness (and its unfortunately to be forced to pay taxes to support those you don't wish to support Ankh).


There are many experiences to be had on this Earth. All of us on this forum are "lucky" in a certain sense. There are millions struggling in abject poverty and starvation in Africa and other third world countries. That catalyst is a different sort than the ones most of us experience. I don't see A1 as avoiding the catalyst as working any more than any of us are avoiding the catalyst of abject poverty and starvation (I don't think most of us have been exposed to this sort of catalyst in this life, but probably have in past lives. I'm betting that even if A1 hasn't been exposed to work catalyst in this life, he has in past lives). A1, and us, all have unique choices concerning what catalyst we wish to pursue, and we are pursuing them.


I'm ok with people who do not work, have no expectations, and live on the charity of others. If at the end of the day, A1 wishes to devote his time to pursuing things not involving working, wonderful, especially if that opportunity is freely given by the universe. Many of the greatest achievements of humankind (invention, philosophy) were not done out a need to make ends-meet money, but done from a space where worrying about work and money were not the primary motivators. There is beauty in having a world where work is less needed. If A1 is manifesting a small scale version of this world with vervex's full support, then that is simply a beautiful thing.


Kudos Manny! .

[vervex]

Hello everyone! It seems my name popped up a few times in this discussion and since I'm being talked about, since my marriage and finances have also been mentioned, I thought I'd drop by and share my perspective...

Tackling the very hot topic of work, I am in agreement with xise who posted his opinion very eloquently before me. Although working a job is a societal requirement, ideally I believe this constraint should not be imposed on anyone who does not wish to work. I would extend this to any obligation someone would not feel comfortable fulfilling, including supporting another financially, having and raising children, getting married, or even concepts as simple as social etiquette. If someone is pained by the accomplishment of a task, my belief is that they should be given the time to sort through their feelings and thoughts, and come to their own conclusion as to whether they really desire to do the task at hand or not. Because of the social structure we humans have built for ourselves however, we are taught to overlook our feelings and proceed forward, even if sometimes we are hurting ourselves in the process.

Now, just to be clear, what I advocate is compassion, a compassion which would translate in accepting people as they are and giving them the time and space they require to find themselves. I for one believe most people, when given the option, would not stay idle for very long; people have dreams, people have desires, and they wish to fulfill them. Most, if not all, the people I have met who did not want to work a job or who desired to escape on a vacation did so because they felt constrained by the responsibilities they felt were imposed on them by society/family/friends/etc. The key question I ask when I meet someone who experiences this type of distortion is the following: "If money wasn't an issue, what would you do?"

To this question I sometimes get as an answer like "I'd just lay on a beach" which would translate to some as "nothing", but I would argue instead, from experience, that the person usually desires to rest and regain their energy after going through tough times. And so I press on: "When you've rested, what would you do?" and this is when the person's core desires emerge. I have heard many things, many beautiful projects ranging from starting a small business to building houses, doing art, writing books and even start-up ideas that would help their locality. I have yet to hear "I'd work in an office from 9-5, that's my thing!". And so it's no wonder people are bitter by the time they reach their 30s-40s; they feel strained and they feel they must constantly refrain from pursuing their desires. They are told their dreams are unrealistic and/or that following their heart would be selfish. These people, oh so many people, have had their spirit crushed... a remarkable catalyst, truly.

Looking at myself within this world, after having worked part-time jobs from age 15 to 22, after having realized throughout the years that I could not sustain if I worked a 9-5 job, I personally chose to follow my heart; at 22, as soon as I had graduated from university, I handed my resignation letter to my boss at Apple retail and pursued the life of a freelance designer and artist. It's a high risk job when you have little experience and a big heart; you want to help everyone and thus, charge little. You get hurt, you learn, you stand up and give it another try. You don't stop because your heart sings when it does what it wants to do; for me it's helping people, sharing with them and creating things. For another it could be teaching, writing a children's novel, building houses or starting a business. The best thing is that although the road is perilous, what people I've encounter desire is usually possible within the limits of our society. It's just risky, scary even. It's a leap of faith; it's often the biggest leap of faith someone will have to take.

With Immanuel, how could I not support him when I seek the same freedom? How could I not support someone whose dream is to write books and inspire people to think when I strive to do the same with my art? How could I force someone to get a 9-5 job when I have gone through 7 years of study-work to come to the conclusion that, although I learned many skills and have no regrets whatsoever, it did not truly make me happy? How could I force someone to go through that if they've already learned from their own short experiences that their happiness lays elsewhere?

And so, I told my husband I will continue doing what I do and try to support us as much as I can. Were I alone I would have to pay rent, bills and taxes anyway; with you, the only added cost is food, toiletries and activities. I cannot afford much because I am currently at an unstable place, the nature of my work at this early stage of my life being volatile, shaped by peaks of stable income which can falter as quickly as they come, but I will always share my table, my bed and my life with you. I will always value your freedom as much as I value my own.

That is my experience. My perspective isn't perfect and it isn't the only one. But it is my own and it works for me at this time. When I am unsure, I look at my heart and the answer is always there, bright and clear once I have cleaned up the clutter made out of fears and doubts.

Finally, although I have never used this social service, I personally have no issue with people who are on welfare; may they use my tax money to rest and find themselves. If they believe they will find themselves through sitting at home watching TV, so be it; it is their right and I do not feel any bitter about it. I know they are usually in poor conditions (welfare here barely covers the cost of rent and some food) and judging them would not do them (or myself) any service. My only wish is that one day they find the happiness they seek, the happiness we truly all seek.

Voilà, my two cents

[Fang]

Going and living in the woods is regression to orange ray. If you want to live by the Law of One it's probably best that you understand that. Escapism is regression psychologically as well and really the choice to not contribute to society is rejection of conventional wisdom also.

You see a lot of the defense here for the position is "well it's their choice" yeah but bad decisions are made all the time. "if money wasn't an issue, what would you do?" "Something entirely self serving" look I assume you folk do want to progress (in the context your beloved Ra material suggests or even just as a person) right? Then step outside of yourselves and realize that putting yourself first is not a great thing and should not be applauded.

There have been many self anointed types with great visions of the future often with cosmic justice or something like that which makes them feel all giddy,their ideas often regarded as great by themselves for their unorthodox nature which of course are impractical and poorly thought out due to self important zeal and never seem to be translated into reality other than in a self righteous "look how good my ideas are, muh insight" fashion. That is not a personal thing at you A1 I have just seen this so many times and done it myself (complete with bullshit LOO rationalization) the conscious (the ability to be uncharacteristically honest) will have it's way sooner or later.

This idea that dependence is good is destroying societies and the minds of the impressionable young. Far leftist ideology, while on the surface seems good for a collective seems to often be promoted by the self indulgent and self interested (idealistic, self righteous young people who coincidentally don't want to work), pre/trans fallacy all over the place.

[Adonai One]

Contemplate the duality of Reliance/Independence on my archetypal mind sheet, if you wish. It is in the Humility/Will duality of The Catalyst of the body, or the third cycle of the body. What are your thoughts on my interpretation of this duality being something that is in perpetual balance that can be explored in infinite ways? Do you believe one side is right over the other?

[reeay]

To challenge and ask questions can be an invitation to think beyond the bounds of one's 'usual' understanding of something... tho we've observed that it can be done w/ provocation (appealing to emotions) & somewhat counterproductive. I don't think that every time someone challenges or questions about someone else's idea, that that person is trying to say what is right or wrong or appropriate or inappropriate. We interact w/ people of various distortions so we're bound to disagree and challenge and misunderstand.

Being able to take various perspectives to challenge self is kind of a valuable asset - bc for those who are beginning to autonomously scrutinize their own choice and actions and own beliefs or whatnot may need 'divergent thinking' skills to get their blue ray action on. That could mean one is OK w/ altering one's philosophy and to explore many ideas as possibilities... ever refining one's hypotheses based on new info that comes in thanks to experience. [my own experience says this allows for more creative problem solving].

---
Compassion can sometimes be blind compassion - e.g., indulgence (finding love within truth?)- then what good have I done for the other?

[Adonai One]

Depends on what you define as "good" and what kind of life is sought.

With my skillset, reeay, the only occupation I am getting is one in the service industry and perhaps indefinitely as I do not have the necessary concepts of conviction and attainment to pursue a white collar job. That is if I remain humble and respect people ethically while working a job. It's very cute but to me it's enslavement.

If I were to really fall so low as to truly interact deeply with society, I probably would get some capital through my relatives and get into cut-throat real estate and corner some markets somewhere and watch my holdings grow. If I go down the road of forcing myself in what I see a trap of economic games between workers and capitalists (government workers and leaders included in this category), I will be a capitalist with the holdings. I will not be stuck working a 9-to-5 and depending on an employer. I will set my own schedule and be writing my own paychecks.

But I don't want to play that game. I don't truly enjoy competition nor obsessing over a career and numbers in my bank account. I know I can dominate business. I've owned several companies through my lives that have had this similar configuration of spiritual mass. The lesson I came here to learn is leisure and a bit of reliance in contrast to a business man that doesn't care for anybody and can sustain himself in a sovereign manner.

The lessons of convicting myself to a career have been repeated over and over again. It's time for a new unique set.

[reeay]

Depends on what you define as "good" and what kind of life is sought.

With my skillset, reeay, the only occupation I am getting is one in the service industry and perhaps indefinitely as I do not have the necessary concepts of conviction and attainment to pursue a white collar job. That is if I remain humble and respect people ethically while working a job. It's very cute but to me it's enslavement.

If I were to really fall so low as to truly interact deeply with society, I probably would get some capital through my relatives and get into cut-throat real estate and corner some markets somewhere and watch my holdings grow. If I go down the road of forcing myself in what I see a trap of economic games between workers and capitalists (government workers and leaders included in this category), I will be a capitalist with the holdings. I will not be stuck working a 9-to-5 and depending on an employer. I will set my own schedule and be writing my own paychecks.

But I don't want to play that game. I don't truly enjoy competition nor obsessing over a career and numbers in my bank account. I know I can dominate business. I've owned several companies through my lives that have had this similar configuration of spiritual mass. The lesson I came here to learn is leisure and a bit of reliance in contrast to a business man that doesn't care for anybody and can sustain himself in a sovereign manner.

The lessons of convicting myself to a career have been repeated over and over again. It's time for a new unique set.

I thought you wanted to create your own business?

[Adonai One]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holding_company

Investing in things including real estate is a business. Do you really think I am going to slave over some small mom-and-pop store while I have to bow to the bank and distributors for my credit lines? Heck no. I will own my business in-hand and have a series of them else it's not worth it to me.

I am still open to starting a business, when I have capital. I will not slave away 10-20 years of my life to bring-in enough start-up capital to start a company I believe in with cash -- and I will not be constricting myself with loan payments, stressing about if I am going to make rent every month.

If I were to go about directly starting businesses, I would go the real estate and investment route, then starting a business with cash in hand. No debt allowed.

Society as it is now does not provide me with a reasonable method of starting a business immediately without sacrificing my happiness for a long-period of time and losing social interaction with my wife.

Society as it stands denies business owners due payment and turns them into workers for the upper classes in high-finance and government. I will not be indirectly working for such systems like that as it means me going into a mode of desperation and panic when money does not come in.

[reeay]

You have ample time to figure it out. I actually started working later than usual. Took apprenticeships/voluntary positions and whatnot b4 full time paid job. Had to go thru unpleasant experiences and challenge my ideals and review my values. That was a totally awesome experience but it was very painful, too. Sucks to be an idealist and have strong convictions about how the world ought to be. The joy of working with people in da hood keeps me going. Even learning to drive was something Painful and even convinced myself that driving was for suckers lol. I like it now tho.

Hope you find something that is exciting.

[Adonai One]

I love you, reeay. I love the way you type words sometimes. Your awesome personality shows through.

[reeay]

I love you, reeay. I love the way you type words sometimes. Your awesome personality shows through.

love to you too Adonai

[AnthroHeart]

The only thing I don't like about my job is giving presentations, since I'm not that great at speaking to crowds of even 10.

[Ankh]

If I were to really fall so low as to truly interact deeply with society

Two questions for you, Adonai:

1. Do you mean that interacting with our society is falling low?

2. What does your "deeply" mean in that sentence? Taking a job in service industry, is that interacting deeply with our society? Is it that what you meant?

[Jeremy]

Most kids have such idealistic notions of sticking it to the man and saying down with authority. Then we grow up and realize that that won't work. Unless of course you become a parasite or better yet a vampire that preys on the goodwill and compassion of others to sustain ones conflated notion of bucking the system

[Plenum]

there's nothing wrong with work; it can teach you a lot of discipline.

I am sure both Ankh and Jeremy can testify to the willpower required to work long, arduous hours in service to-others (healthcare profession), and to keep on serving despite being physically and mentally (and possibly spiritually) drained as well. It is easy to serve when conditions are 'right' and 'supportive'; but can one keep serving in the face of adversity and difficulty? That is the true test of the 'Choice' and the commitment to one's path.

ps, having worked night shift myself for many years, full time at first, I can tell you it develops many inner qualities to be continually challenged.

One of those qualities, a beautiful one indeed, is gratitude for when times are easier and more tranquil. It is a deep appreciation of just being able to be still and quiet.

[AnthroHeart]

I worked a graveyard shift till 2am once. I don't appreciate easier work much more now. I'd rather be at home chilling.

[Horuseus]

I think this echoes A1's sentiments quite well:


It's also something I agree with, and Imo the issue with society and people not enjoying their job is the fear in moving away from that paradigm due to the practicalities. This idea is collectively shared across society, thereby reinforcing the pattern/neuroses, and so it is a self inflicted prison shared by the mass, albeit a highly convincing one. Pretty much any revolutionary who changed the system operated from a paradigm that was outside, being branded as an anomaly by those within, so it is in our interests in fostering that attitude, or at the least be receptive to ideals we may wish to strive for. You need to be of service to yourself to effectively be of service to others.

At the same time, this is a transitional mindset that one must necessarily explore. Some call a period prior to authentic conscious realisation the 'Dark night of the Soul'. During this timeframe ones system and framework of priorities are reorganised, with one of the questions being asked by the outer personality construct being "Why me? Why am I incarnated on this dump where I need to expend effort to survive. I am an Infinite sovereign being inherently worthy of Love! I should be able to manifest all the things I want in front of me by pure thought. The idea that I should experience suffering for knowing I am worthy of not suffering is stupid. Stop limiting me!". I know this because we have all explored and experienced that mindset at some level, which I'm sure others can attest to.

The key here is acceptance of ones current circumstances. Compromises do need to made at this stage of the game given the agreement to choose to work within the system, albeit on a temporary basis. The challenges in acceptance that provides is useful catalyst in itself involving lower ray work, so it isn't something to be invalided at all. It certainly isn't suffering, and the disdain towards the idea of 'authority' is due to the belief that one is trapped and unable to move forward. That idea and the fear revolving around it needs to be analysed objectively and worked with. It's good catalyst and will provide solid foundation for moving forward. Appreciate the earth environment and the game, see the fact that it appears limiting as a challenge to mold to your ideals. Through your actions and example so will others follow.

[AnthroHeart]

"Why am I incarnated on this dump where I need to expend effort to survive. I am an Infinite sovereign being inherently worthy of Love! I should be able to manifest all the things I want in front of me by pure thought. The idea that I should experience suffering for knowing I am worthy of not suffering is stupid. Stop limiting me!"

I agree. Even inner restlessness is a degree of suffering for me. Not feeling Creator's love, and feeling so separate from everything. I surprise myself that I chose to be here. I don't usually feel suffering from outward things.

[Jeremy]

I should reiterate what I meant wih that previous post. My ex basically took care of the finances during a particularly rough period of my life where I was deep in a depression while bucking the system and questioning everything about life. I had a very helpful psychologist who was very versed in Buddhism, meditation, etc so he became a teacher in a sense. During the times I was living off of my wife, she was ok with it for a while until our finances became an issue. I continued upon my track towards self discovery which ultimately lead us to sell our house because one icons wasn't enough.

I respect my wife for doing such a service as I ultimately found the field of xray which I thoroughly enjoy. But this was temporary and I never once thought about bucking the system to the level of completely rejecting any and all notions of "normal" societal interaction and contribution. I knew it was more about finding my place within this confusing illusion.

[reeay]

I continued upon my track towards self discovery which ultimately lead us to sell our house because one icons wasn't enough.

What do you mean one icon wasn't enough?

[Horuseus]

I continued upon my track towards self discovery which ultimately lead us to sell our house because one icons wasn't enough.

What do you mean one icon wasn't enough?

Income typo?

To be fair I've no room to talk in the experience department. I have awesome folk who I'm supported by at the moment. Itching to move out soon though.

[Plenum]

To be fair I've no room to talk in the experience department. I have awesome folk who I'm supported by at the moment. Itching to move out soon though.

a studio apartment?


lol rie. Don't you know one icon is not enough? Especially in today's age. One needs at least two icons to be happy

[Jeremy]

Hah I see the autocorrect fail now lol

[reeay]

LOL ok typo explains it. You'd need two icons to bring up a child :p plus have home and cars. Yikes.

[Adonai One]

there's nothing wrong with work; it can teach you a lot of discipline.

I am sure both Ankh and Jeremy can testify to the willpower required to work long, arduous hours in service to-others (healthcare profession), and to keep on serving despite being physically and mentally (and possibly spiritually) drained as well. It is easy to serve when conditions are 'right' and 'supportive'; but can one keep serving in the face of adversity and difficulty? That is the true test of the 'Choice' and the commitment to one's path.

ps, having worked night shift myself for many years, full time at first, I can tell you it develops many inner qualities to be continually challenged.

One of those qualities, a beautiful one indeed, is gratitude for when times are easier and more tranquil. It is a deep appreciation of just being able to be still and quiet.

Commitment and conviction are not ways of acceptance of all things. They are ways of negating potential experience in favor of only one potential. It is a test of faith of only in seeing one thing as the self and not all as self. I seek open faith to all possibilities without expectation. I cannot state enough that I seek without expectation for seeking with expectation is seeking with a denial of other potentials that are just as worthy of love.