Barred from Intiation?

[Mahakali]

This is not true!
There are many homosexual people practicing tantra!
In a homosexual pairing, one part has a more female while the other has a more male energy!

Apart from that, sexual intercourse is only a tiny part of tantra!

I have been practicing tantra for more than 15 years now,btw.

That's true, but there are also things that can't be done in a homosexual pairing. Having children, for instance. There are probably ways to get around or emulate most requirements for sexual spiritual work with a partner of the same sex, but there are also things that can't be done. I've known about orders that don't allow homosexuals in for this reason, and for the most part I'm against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, but that's perfectly valid (being that the discrimination is for the purposes of the laws of physics and not out of knee-jerk emotional reaction).

That said, it sounds like the order in the OP is doing it because of all the psychological knots that having a non-straight sexual orientation can tie in one's head, and also sounds like that passage was written a long time ago, so I say go for it.

If OP is really determined to join this order, and it's really an issue, he could also engage sexually with someone of the opposite gender purely for the purposes of ritual or whatever and continue being himself in his day to day life.

[loostudent]

I couldn’t quote the entire chapter in “The Sword and the Serpent” (which I highly recommend for those interested in Qabalah), but the Aurum Solis has the perspective that psychically the goal of the Adept is androgyny; balance/equilibrium of male and female within mind.

I'm not sure if this balance is supposed to be 50/50 in one person. To my understanding the goal of sexual polarization is anything above 50/50 and unique for each person. The reason is that a man by nature embodies predominantly male archetype and a woman embodies female principle (no matter what individual balance is achieved). Like in the yin-yang simbol only a small spot of yang is in yin and vice versa. Otherwise there would be no reason for male/female polarity as two distinct sexes. On personal level this means a couple together aproaching equilibrium of 100/100. On a larger level this means equal cooperation between men and women.

The male/female polarity is the harvest of previous creation. In addition Logoi of current creation also determined that mated relationship proved to be the best way for greater polarization. Only a bias is offered. It is our free will to take it as a great mystery and gift of Logos. I think this doesn't mean this is the only way but it proved so far as the best. So there might be some lesser paths.

The harvest from the previous creation was that which included the male and female mind/body/spirit. It was the intention of the original Logoi that entities mate with one another in any fashion which caused a greater polarization. It was determined, after observation of the process of many Logoi, that polarization increased many fold if the mating were not indiscriminate. Consequent Logoi thusly preserved a bias towards the mated relationship which is more characteristic of more disciplined personalities and of what you may call higher densities. The free will of each entity, however, was always paramount and a bias only could be offered. (Ra)

[Nau7ik]

Here are some interesting quotes from The Sword and the Serpent that I think are relevant:

The Supernal Powers are three: two are their Briatic images: the Woman and the Man. (To Kether is assigned no image in the modern Qabalah.) The predominantly male of soul who identify with the Man shall love the archetypal Woman, the predominantly female of soul who identify with the Woman shall love the archetypal Man. Or they may love a human being in the likeness of the image, and shall learn deeply by that experience. ...

Those in whom male and female are balanced, and who generally tend most to the Way of the Mystic, will love equally the Woman and the Man, finding these in the whole human race as does Whitman for instance, or exemplified in especially paired loves: as he whom we call Shakespeare loved the Fair Man and the Dark Lady. ...

These are the generalities of the images of the Images: yet more subtle modes are there in which they may win their devotees. For the Chiah (corresponding to Chokmah) is not only to be interpreted as Male, but sometimes as Elder: and then the corresponding polarity, the Neshamah (corresponding to Binah), will represent the Younger. If the Chiah is the leader, the Neshamah is the follower. Thus do these two Supernals divide between them all the pairs of opposites, so that sex is far from being the only determinant which may validity lead the subject to identify himself or herself with one or the other polarity and to find the complementary polarity imaged in another person who is thus seen as the beloved one.

[Nau7ik]

I'm not sure if this balance is supposed to be 50/50 in one person. To my understanding the goal of sexual polarization is anything above 50/50 and unique for each person. The reason is that a man by nature embodies predominantly male archetype and a woman embodies female principle (no matter what individual balance is achieved). Like in the yin-yang simbol only a small spot of yang is in yin and vice versa. Otherwise there would be no reason for male/female polarity as two distinct sexes. On personal level this means a couple together aproaching equilibrium of 100/100. On a larger level this means equal cooperation between men and women.

The balance of male and female within the individual’s psyche will be unique, of course, to that individual; yes, I agree.

Whichever way a person initially leans, it must be borne in mind that the ultimate ideal is for every human being to be psychically androgynous. That is one of the great lessons of life, and those who are not yet ready to learn it in the occult schools must at least learn it to some extant in the ordinary experiences of life. The man who courts a girl, makes her wishes his law: at the same time she is “his lord and master,” as the men of the Middle Ages and of the Renaissance did not shrink from saying. The wife who would lean wholly upon her husband in material things, must be his inspirer in the things of the spirit: otherwise she is a vampire, and their partnership may end in psychic and perhaps even material bankruptcy. The father’s authority must be tempered by tenderness and understanding: the mother must be a tower of strength to her sons and to her daughters alike.

The magician may be hermit and celibate, yet all these things and more he must know in his heart for truth: that the spiritual realities underlying the patterns may be found in his soul by the Powers.

[Jade]

In that regard, I think that sexual magic relies largely on intention in determining whether it is balanced or imbalanced. Is energy being freely transferred between both individuals or is one individual taking more than giving? I think that white sexual magic develops through the refinement and enjoyment of a balanced and freely given transfer. Some thoughts I've personally had on the matter.

In this vein, Ra says that "if any entity is well polarized and vibrating in the green ray", both entities get equal energy transfer from the orgasm.

84.16 Questioner: What I am trying to determine is the direction of energy transfer as a function of orgasm. Which entity gets the transferred energy? I know it’s a dumb question, but I want to be sure I have it cleared up.

Ra: I am Ra. If both entities are well polarized and vibrating in green-ray love any orgasm shall offer equal energy to both.

The thing is that it is a different type of energy that is exchanged, which is why there is the male/female confusion. What really needs to occur for a sexual energy transfer is for each entity to have an excess/deficit of the energies that are transferred, in opposite of the other:

In [green] ray there are two possibilities. Firstly, if both vibrate in [green] ray there will be a mutually strengthening energy transfer, the negative or female, as you call it, drawing the energy from the roots of the beingness up through the energy centers, thus being physically revitalized; the positive, or male polarity, as it is deemed in your illusion, finding in this energy transfer an inspiration which satisfies and feeds the spirit portion of the body/mind/spirit complex, thus both being polarized and releasing the excess of that which each has in abundance by nature of intelligent energy, that is, negative/intuitive, positive/physical energies as you may call them; this energy transfer being blocked only if one or both entities have fear of possession, of being possessed, of desiring possession or desiring being possessed.

But, as each entity is male, and each is female, it's actually about the balance of these energies within each individual entity.

I am Ra. We used the term to indicate that in your bisexual natures there is that which is of polarity. This polarity may be seen to be variable according to the, shall we say, male/female polarization of each entity, be each entity biologically male or female. Thus you may see the magnetism when two entities with the appropriate balance, male/female versus female/male polarity, meeting and thus feeling the attraction which polarized forces will exert, one upon the other.

So, it's the balance between male/female and female/male between each entity that causes sexual attraction. Ra says with bisexual polarity, the benefit is that this sexual attraction is automatic, since the majority of males are polarized with a surplus of physical energy and most females are polarized with a surplus of spiritual energy, each sees the other as an opportunity to balance the excess. 

This is the strength of the bisexual mechanism. It does not take an act of will to decide to feel attraction for one who is oppositely polarized sexually. It will occur in an inevitable sense giving the free flow of energy a proper, shall we say, avenue. This avenue may be blocked by some distortion towards a belief/condition which states to the entity that this attraction is not desired. However, the basic mechanism functions as simply as would, shall we say, the magnet and the iron.

I think this is why Ra says homosexuality is an "impairment", because the opportunities for balancing this energy are diminished just by the lack of availability of others to interact with in a polarized way. It's not impossible, it's just not as readily available, or simply achieved. I think it's an ignorance/prejudice/laziness of organized sects to reject those who don't fall into the obvious male/female dichotomy. There is still a lot of latent bigotry to work with in our social complex.

[Nau7ik]

Thank you Jade!! Your explanation of why Ra says homosexuality is an impairment makes sense. I had not considered it that way, but now I see it! From my own personal experiences, yes the opportunities for service to another (in the sense of offsetting the excesses in polarity) are less. It’s also more difficult to find a partner. The problem for gays is that it’s hard to be sure if another male is homosexual or not. Especially if that person is masculine “manly” rather than exhibiting feminine qualities. I personally am attracted to a masculine appearance and qualities. I also have a masculine appearance, so it’s hard to tell if another masculine man is gay.

You are correct, I think, in noting the latent bigotry in our social complex. It’s cwetainly there, and not just bigotry about homosexuality. There’s a lot of nonsense bigotry that needs to be brought to the surface, looked at, understood, and healed, and FORGIVEN! (Lest we fall back into that pattern of bigotry, which humans have repeatedly done and still do now. “You oppressed me, now I’m going to oppress you for oppressing me!”)

[Aion]

Any person of any sexuality with talent, training or spontaneous inspiration can achieve sexual energy transfer and that with green-ray love as well. It is a commonly held occult convention that both men and women have both 'masculine' and 'feminine' energies, so it seems reasonable to me to think that regardless of sexuality this could be configured. I think that often sexual transfer is seen as one individual with 'masculine' energy and one individual with 'feminine' energy combining together like yin and yang. However, I think taking this same symbol we see that both individuals have both energies and BOTH are exchanged. So if a man and a woman have sex, both their masculine and feminine energies combine and I think the same is true with men with men and women with women.

In that regard, I think that sexual magic relies largely on intention in determining whether it is balanced or imbalanced. Is energy being freely transferred between both individuals or is one individual taking more than giving? I think that white sexual magic develops through the refinement and enjoyment of a balanced and freely given transfer. Some thoughts I've personally had on the matter.

Thank you for sharing! I think you are wise and insightful. I couldn’t quote the entire chapter in “The Sword and the Serpent” (which I highly recommend for those interested in Qabalah), but the Aurum Solis has the perspective that psychically the goal of the Adept is androgyny; balance/equilibrium of male and female within mind. They seem to share your perspective on the matter.

I wonder, though, how many of these Orders practicing sex magick are practicing true white sexual magick? Or are the potentials generated being used for purposes other than self knowledge and transformation? I dunno, but if I’m not mistaken, sex magick has a high potential for misuse. Crowley thought himself to be positive. He trained Victor Neuberg with sadomasochistic slave/master techniques to break him. Later on, when Crowley was working the Enochian aethyr’s in the Arabian desert, Crowley had Neuberg sodomize him to achieve a certain magical polarity needed for the Rite.  (? I’m not too clear on the occult theory here. But this expedition was recorded so others can find it and look into it if they want. It’s very fascinating to say the least.)

Sexual magick coming from Crowley doesn’t seem positive to my judgment. It seems more service-to-self, in the true sense of that term; serving the self at the exclusion of others, which means using others to benefit the self.

Anyway, I’m not that interested in sex magick, honestly. For me this will be for a committed partner and I to experiment with. Sex magick is not why I seek occult training from a magical Order. Although of course with occult training one will have better knowledge to pursue sex magick, if he so desires to follow that path, which can bring one to full attainment.

Yes, this is a classic idea in Alchemy which is the marriage between the "Red King" and "White Queen", the two internal halves of the Alchemist which are brought in to union. Qabbalah and Alchemy are intimately connected.

I would say that when it comes to whole Orders there are likely none that are totally pure, but you can likely find positive work being done. I agree that Crowley's system seems to lean more towards pure self-development and attachment to one's will. I think sexual magic is a bit misunderstood. The potency of sexual energy isn't in the sexual act but in an understanding of what that energy actually is, which to my understanding is a raw creative impulse. Sexual acts are just the most obvious and direct way to make use of that energy, but it actually gets used during any creative act.

Personally, it's not really my thing either. I don't think sex and magic need to be mixed. Some will argue about its potency but then, power isn't everything. I don't think you need to 'know magic' or be familiar with the occult whatsoever to have genuine white magical sex. It more comes about from open hearts I think.

[Aion]

So if a man and a woman have sex, both their masculine and feminine energies combine and I think the same is true with men with men and women with women.

How do two women do a sexual energy transfer? I get that if there's sufficient voltage, then there could be a kind of inductive transfer from the auras alone, but... you know? Limitations of the physical system seem very apparent here.

Agua gave a pretty good explanation but I'd go even further and state that for those with the skill and connectivity you don't even need contact. There does need to be a sufficient bond between the individuals so that there is a free flow of energy and that's the harder part to achieve. The key is in the 'circulation' of energy. That is what the 'white magical effect' is. You are essentially combining two auras in to one so that there is a single flow of energy. The reason it's come about as 'sexual magic' is, I believe, because sex is just the most direct way to go about doing that.

Also, in most white sexual magical practice, the energy is not actually transferred from the red ray or sexual center, but rather it is transmuted up to the heart and transferred from there. So sexual energy is brought up in to the vibration of unconditional love, that of the green-ray, and two individuals doing this mutually produce a white magical sexual energy transfer. You don't need orgasm whatsoever to achieve a transfer.

[Nau7ik]

Yes, this is a classic idea in Alchemy which is the marriage between the "Red King" and "White Queen", the two internal halves of the Alchemist which are brought in to union. Qabbalah and Alchemy are intimately connected.

That’s very interesting because the A.’.S.’. also considers alchemy of high importance. In the first book of the series I am reading from that group, the story of the Red and White Roses is included. Black Dragon enslaves “Soul of the Earth” and Red Rose liberates her from Black Dragon, and with that freedom she is given a new name “White Rose”. The story continues on to their marriage, I believe. (Haven’t read the story in a while.)

Also I had remembered a certain quote from Ra ... “Begin and end in the Creator, not technique.” I think that wise advice. The Way of the Mystic follows the arrow path: Malkuth, Yesod, Tiphareth, crossing of the Abyss (Daath), and Kether. I’ve heard this mentioned a few times but not much information is given. Fortune and A.’.S.’. Have both mentioned the Way of the Mystic as a Path of Return. I’m guessing that the mystical approach upon the Way of Return would be more Solitary? Does anyone have anything they’d like to share on this topic? I may be more of a natural mystic. The Hermit is one of my favorite arcana cards.

[Aion]

Those are all alchemical symbols and described is an alchemical drama. The 'marriage' is what results in the Philosopher's Stone. These stories are, of course, allegorical for internal processes.

I have heard various different opinions on different 'ways' of progressing the Tree of Life. In traditional Kabbalah everybody exists and 'begins', as a human mortal, in Malkuth. Some systems thus start in Malkuth and work their way up through the spheres and paths, either partially or completely. Others believe you should start at the top in Kether and make your way down. I think that different systems are different journies so it is hard to compare them. Various names and reasonings are given for these things, usually based on some idealization of moral philosophy.

While I am certainly supportive of any kind of solitary work it is my opinion that group work is more efficient in many ways if a good supportive group can be found. Using both in unison is probably most useful. I am not familar enough with either Fortune's opinions or the A.’.S.’. to comment on what they particularly mean by those ideas.

[Nau7ik]

I also agree that a supportive group would be best. Finding a group is certainly something that I desire. I’ve even thought of creating my own group, a spiritual study group with programs of self discipline and group work. For now I practice and study alone, except that I do come to B4 and talk to you guys. I don’t know anyone who seeks in my daily life, let alone seeks with passion and intensity like I do, who is dedicated on this path for life.

Something that gives me comfort though is a quote I heard many years ago, “When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.”

[Diana]

Something that gives me comfort though is a quote I heard many years ago, “When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.”

It has been my experience that messages are always there, in everything we see and experience. So, as referenced in the quote, I think the teachers are always there, and it is the individual who must be ready to be open to receiving.

A message might be in a cloudy sky, a singing bird, a homeless person. We all understand catalyst, but to open the mind enough to learn from that which we label as different or not intelligent enough, or a person thought of as a "loser," or a tree that doesn't talk, or an STS individual, is to cast aside aside judgment and break down walls in the path. A guru of any kind, for example, is not necessarily someone to learn from; a guru tends to be someone who tells you how to do something. Whereas, when you commune with a tree, you may learn what that tree has to teach by its example, such as to unconditionally accept other creatures and shade and protect them because they have come under your care, and to do so with an open heart expecting nothing in return—and this is more of a teaching in my view than someone who tells me how to do something.