In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

I will now bounce the question back to you: Can you (not just you personally, but anyone/everyone on this thread who might be interested in working with us to find common ground) accept us, and our views? Can you accept us without us having to give up our convictions?

It's never bothered me that you or anyone else would choose to be vegan or vegetarian. The trouble has come, I think, from the perception that you and others disapprove of my dietary choices. So if your convictions are that being vegan or vegetarian is the right thing for you, yes, absolutely I can and do accept that. If your convictions are that being vegan or vegetarian would be the right thing for me, then no, I don't think I can accept that.

Oh gosh, how to explain?

If I attempt (yet again) to explain this very delicate distinction, can I ask that you please bear with me here, and refrain from any conclusions til you hear me out?

(deep breath)

OK here goes:

Focus and intent come into play here. I would never, ever, EVER tell you or anyone else what I think YOU should do, what is 'right' for you, or whether your choice is the best one for you, whether it is regarding diet, lifestyle, spirituality, or whatever. It's simply not my place to do so.

My focus is not on you.

I have no desire to change you, in any way. I love and accept you the way you are. Do I agree with the choices you make for yourself? Your choice of car, clothing, mate, activities, movies, whatever? Such a question is foreign to me. I can't even relate to the question!

A friend once told me that she disliked hairy chests on men. The comment struck me as very strange. The very idea of her liking or disliking a physical attribute of another person, was entirely foreign to my way of thinking. She was singling out a particular trait, that that particular man had absolutely no control over (short of shaving or waxing his hair off). It was as bizarre to me as saying "I dislike big noses" or "I dislike short people."

I mean, whatever gave her the right to judge someone's bodily characteristics like that?

Now before anyone accuses me of judging her for judging, I really and truly didn't judge her for it. I accepted that that was simply where she was at, for whatever reason. I just offer this as an example of how I DON'T think.

My friend thinks like that. I don't. It's just that simple. Here is how I think:

When I meet someone, I notice their overall essence. Whether they have body hair, what color their skin is, or whatever, is all just part of their overall package. And that includes their lifestyle choices, whether it's their occupation, their sexuality, their spirituality, or...even their diet.

All of those things are part of the package of that person. They don't concern me.

I honestly and truly don't even think in terms of deciding whether I 'like' or 'approve' of their choices or not, because...they are their choices. They are responsible for their choices, not me.

So for me to tell you "Your choice to eat meat is wrong for you" is simply foreign to me. It's as foreign to me as saying "I don't like the color of your hair." It's just not something I think about.

Sure, I'm human so I'm going to notice if a good-looking guy walks by. And I'm going to notice the clothing of a well-dressed woman, and I might compliment her on it and ask where she bought her outfit. But if her style is not my style, I simply don't think "I don't like her dress" because she's the one wearing it, not me!

With me so far?

Now, having said all that, I also happen to have some very strong convictions about harming others. I believe harming other-selves is contrary to the STO path. There are exceptions: self-defense, in which case it's acceptable, but only as a last resort, and mercy-killing, as in the case of euthanizing an elderly, sick dog who is in severe pain, which is an act of mercy. There might be other exceptions, but these are the obvious 2 that I can think of. (I don't consider war in the exception category.)

When I say "harming other-selves is contrary to the STO path" that includes our younger other-selves: the animals.

As I've expressed previously, there are lots of other things I also consider contrary to the STO path; things like polluting the planet, indiscriminately destroying plants, etc. For reasons I have exhaustively detailed throughout this thread for the past 3 years, I don't consider plants to be in the 'other-selves' category, with the exception of some trees, and I find it pointless to start a campaign for trees' rights, when most people can't even comprehend that cows feel pain! So any talk of "well plants want to live too!" to me is really a distraction from the real issue. I don't see that argument as having any substance, but is really just a knee-jerk, defensive reaction. For the simple reason that if the person saying that really and truly cared about saving plants, then they'd be able to understand our case about animals; and furthermore, they'd quit eating animals for the simple reason that more plants are killed when animals are eaten, than when plants are eaten directly.

So I'm really not interested in the 'plants have feelings too' argument because I find it entirely baseless, in the context of reducing meat consumption. My stance is: Let's tackle the higher 2D entities, before we start on the early 2D entities.

So, getting back to how I feel or think about your choices...I don't feel or think anything at all about your choices. I really and truly don't.

However, I do feel and think a great deal about the unnecessary suffering of animals.

Valtor indicated that he didn't agree with me, or with the scientific community who says that humans don't need meat to be healthy.

I've been a vegetarian for 40 of my 52 years. My 23-yo son has never had a bite of meat in his life. I've met 2nd and 3rd generation vegans who were vibrantly healthy. I'll concede that some people might require a bit more education and may need to go about it gradually, to give their bodies time to adjust. And I definitely acknowledge that not everyone is ready to be a vegan, much less raw vegan! (Though I strongly believe it is physically doable for everyone! It's the mental component that isn't ready.) So, as Ra stated, animal products (which I interpret to be eggs and dairy) to the extent necessary for individual metabolism makes total sense to me. It needn't be all or nothing: meat-eater or vegan. There is a middle ground! It's called: humanely produced eggs and dairy! Both of which contain the same type of protein as meat. Case closed, as far as I'm concerned. Humans don't need meat. To say that they do, isn't going to make any headway with me. I'm a tough sell on that one, for good reason. My experience, my education on the subject, and the scientific community backing me up (as a bonus), + the fact that the vegetarian diet is, in my opinion, in alignment with the STO path, makes me a hard sell on the idea that anyone needs meat. I just flat out don't believe it. I believe we are evolving, and the idea that we must participate in an act of bloody violence, just to exist on this planet, just flies in the face of everything I know and believe.

These are my beliefs. They aren't up for analysis, because they're my beliefs. I'm not asking anyone to agree with them. Anyone can comment on them if they wish; it matters not to me. But for them to judge my beliefs, would be like me judging their hairy chest. It's pointless. We can discuss and exchange ideas, but my convictions are my own, just as yours are your own. We don't need approval, and nor do we need to apologize for, our convictions.

I am simply explaining why I believe the meat industry is completely unnecessary. If it's not necessary to eat animals for health, which I just explained is my belief, then it logically follows that any killing of animals for food is unnecessary.

Notice I said for food. Obviously, if a pit bull is about to attack a child, I'd kill that dog in an instant, to save the child. I wouldn't even hesitate. It's be an unpleasant thing to do, but I wouldn't feel guilt. I'd probably feel annoyance and anger at the owners of the dog who did such an irresponsible thing as letting the dog loose.

If a cow is diseased and sick, it may be an act of mercy to kill her. If a lion is chasing a human...if a snake is about to bite...you get the idea. Yes, there are times when killing an animal is necessary. Just like there are times when it's necessary to kill plants...like to survive on this planet.

The key word here is necessary.

I absolutely do not believe that it's ever necessary to have bacon for breakfast, a hamburger for lunch, and chicken for dinner. Even with the best of the "my body needs meat" arguments, I don't believe it. Asian people eat 1/4 the amount of meat as Americans and guess what? They have 1/4 the disease.

I don't expect everyone to instantly go vegetarian. But at the very least, acknowledging that it is UNnecessary and seeing it for what it really is - a familiar habit - and cutting back, would be a huge step.

So, I have explained why I think killing animals for food is unnecessary.

This is supported by Ra's statement to the extent necessary. Why do you suppose Ra said that? To me, this means that if it's truly necessary, then it's compatible with the STO path. But if it's not, then it's not.

Therefore, can you see how it logically follows, in my mind, that any unnecessary killing is incompatible with the STO path?

And, can you see how it logically follows, in my mind, that animals are being oppressed and victimized?

It then logically follows, that if these other-selves are being victimized, and are calling for help, and I am hearing their call, and I am STO-oriented, can you see why I would want to answer their call?

I see the killing of animals for food the same as I see blacks being subjected to slavery, the same as I see the Jewish holocaust...these are all examples of extreme abuse, oppression, and horror.

I see the end result of those actions in that way: unnecessary suffering to other-selves.

I don't really see the person doing it. They are pretty much invisible. I'm not motivated to change that person. I truly am not judging that person, so I have no opinion about their reasons for what they do. They probably aren't STS, but are probably doing something that they think is acceptable, for whatever reason, just as plantation owners weren't 'bad' people but simply thought it was normal to use black people as slaves. Black people weren't considered 'people' just as animals aren't today...just as unborn humans aren't either.

So I'm not even looking at the person who has the slaves, or who is eating the meat. I'm looking only at the slaves, and hear their cry...I'm looking only at the animals, and hear their cry.

Are you beginning to see now why I cannot say "Your choice to eat animals is right for you" any more than I could say "Your choice to have slaves is right for you" ?

If your 'choices' happen to conflict with my efforts to answer the call of the oppressed, that is inconsequential to me. I'm not looking at your dietary choices.

I'm looking at the animals.

See, it is a matter of focus.

I don't care about what you eat.

I care about the animals.

If what you eat, happens to conflict with my efforts to save the animals, you and I may have a bit of discord.

But it's nothing personal. It truly isn't.

I live in a society in which slavery is still legal. I must accept that.

But it's asking too much, to ask me to say "well it's ok for you to have slaves" or "I personally don't want to have slaves but I respect your choice to have slaves." I can't do that. That is simply asking too much.

My convictions have nothing to do with you. My convictions are about helping free the slaves.

Thank you for accepting the olive branch.

Thank you for reading my posts!

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Note: Edited to fix typos.