In regards to eating meat

[Pablísimo]

Pablisímo, thank you, my brother, for your reply. Although I don't agree on some points with you, I believe that I understand them now.

No problem. And thanks to YOU for continuing the dialogue in a respectful and constructive fashion. I think it's more important to understand the other perspective than to agree with it. Agreement is not necessary for peace, but understanding sure helps! Thank you for helping get things back on track... constructively. With honor and respect for all.

This is the kind of issue where people may ultimately have to just agree to disagree. But if we can better understand the opposite perspective, I think our compassion and discernment will grow. That's enough for me.

I've also had some of my views strengthened and expanded by people on this thread who DO agree with me.

By participating here I now experience an understanding, but not only because of the people who agree with me, but also because of those who do not. I think that I am now able to understand the vegetarians with an extreme approach to the matter, and also the so called "meat-eaters" with an extreme approach to the matter. Your participation added *a lot* to an understanding of those who are VERY strong biased towards vegetarian food choice. Thank you.

Ironically, I received much the same value from this thread, even though my conclusions were different! How interesting, and delightful! I still feel firm in my vegetarian convictions, but now with less judgement and more understanding of other points of view. It makes me happy to know that you've derived some small benefit from this conversation as well, painful though it has been at times. Thank you for sharing your heartfelt perspective as well.

Basically, I consider this an appropriate place for vegetarians and meat eaters alike to discuss and debate our biased views. I look at it as an "OPT-IN" situation because no'one is forced to read the thread who does not wish to participate, which is different than billboards that you drive past and see without intentionally seeking it out.

What are your views on that? Do you consider posts from vegetarians who strongly, strongly, advocate their position and argue against the meat eating position to be too "in your face"? Or do you see a distinction between a conversation in this discussion forum and, say, the PETA billboards? Honestly, I think this thread may well be one of the very few places where it is perfectly acceptable to strongly convey our own views. I feel it is best done with the understanding that we must respect eachother we are all distorted/biased, and that we may not ultimately agree, but here seems like the right place to do it.

I don't know what PETA is, but of course it is different to pass by an add and not have any choice but to look at it, and reading threads in this forum. However, this is a community I am a part of. When there are very disharmonious energies in one place - do you ignore it? Or do you try to look at it and understand? I don't buy the arguments like: if you don't like it here, no one is forcing you to be a member of this forum, it is optional. Or - it is optional to read this thread, so don't do it if you don't like it. Are we not one? Why then create this separation, and foremost by members who are consciously trying to understand the Law of *One*? Do you understand where I am coming from? This is probably the most disharmonious thread on this forum. Why would any member ignore it?

You know, Ankh, I hadn't really thought about it like that before, but now I DO see where you are coming from. Thank you, once again, for expanding my perspective from a more limited state!! I also appreciate you making the distinction between a situation where one is forced to see a shocking ad out of the blue and a discussion forum. However I see now why it's hard for you to ignore this thread even though you aren't forced to read it. You must be sensing the discord and pain throbbing outward from this thread and it is in a place you love and involving a community you care about. How could I fault you for that? I injected myself into a conversation about another topic that was not of great concern to me when I perceived massive tension and discord recently, so I can hardly throw stones given my pretty glass house

This probably is indeed the most disharmonious thread in the forum, and the argument has sadly spilled out into half a dozen different places here. This disagreement has negatively altered the dynamics of several other important topics, as well as forum relationships in general.

Personally, I consider this to be an important issue worthy of discussion, but I find that it's almost impossible to discuss it in a constructive way as long as there are so many hurt feelings. So of course, when you put it like that, I can absolutely understand why it is hard to ignore, even if you don't particularly want to discuss the topic. For me, though, what I'd like to do is for us all to heal the hurt and get the conversation back on track. Maybe if we can turn this back into a constructive conversation, there won't be all this hurt radiating outward and compelling people to jump in who are not interested. That would truly bring it back to a state of "OPT-IN", voluntary discussion of what is admittedly a volatile issue. There are some people who just the TOPIC upsets, all dynamics with people aside. For them, perhaps this thread is not the best place to spend their time. And yet there are other people, all across the dietary spectrum who very much would like to discuss it here. I honestly think it's better to confine the discussion to one place rather than interrupt other threads across the forum with a sub-conversation about meat eating and vegetarianism. I could be wrong about this -- this is just my subjective, biased opinion. But I feel everyone has the right on this thread to say "I believe my way is the right way". Do you disagree? Am I viewing this too simplistically, perhaps?

I still believe it is possible for this to be a place to discuss, and even debate the meat / veg question in a mutually respectful fashion. I also believe it's possible for us to agree to disagree on the topic and still love eachother afterwards. Like I said earlier, if we can better understand eachother, our compassion and discernment will grow, and agreement is in no way necessary.

I have difficulties with an approach that is of an "extremist" point of view, or as you put it, "VERY direct and biased". I think now that I understand where it is coming from. However, I am still uneased when one "side" uses disrespectful tone when speaking to the "other" side, and pressing their opinions on them. I definitely think that this is something that we should discuss here, and especially if one has a strong and direct bias - this is the place for understanding!

First off, I'm so pleased you see this as a place for understanding -- that is the exact value I put upon it. Understanding, not necessarily agreement. Harmony through differences.

What's not perfectly clear to me yet is what is the appropriate approach to take? How can we discuss this topic and reach understanding unless we directly advocate our respective positions? -- no matter what dietary place we are coming from.

I really think this part is absolutely key to this whole mess. We all have a biased, subjective point of view about many things, that is a given. In a discussion forum, what is the problem with saying "I believe this way is better, and I believe that for XYZ reasons."? Honestly, is that inappropriate in an of itself? Or do we just have a problem with overall tone and delivery -- ie is the problem one of fundamental approach of advocating our belief in the correctness of our view, or just the tone and way it is phrased?

Here's my view...

When a person responds with an opposing viewpoint, I also think it's appropriate for an answer to be given. This is direct, and biased. Even if it is extremist -- which is a really subjective term, and can be perceived as hurtful -- is it inappropriate to advocate your perspective in a discussion forum on one thread? I would feel differently if there were 200 threads opened a day on the topic and dozens others hijacked, as we recently saw in something unrelated. But just one? That seems reasonable to me, so long as it is done in a mutually respectful fashion.

I sense that some (not all) of the hurt feelings from meat eaters centers around the fact that some of us believe we are RIGHT. What I don't understand is why this topic of vegetarianism vs meat eating is different than any other topic where we believe our point of view to be correct? I mean, I honestly think that the Doors is the best rock band ever. Should I hide that fact in a thread discussing which music we like the best? And should I be surprised if other people believe just as strongly that it's really Jimi Hendrix and the Doors are awful? As long as I do it respectfully, is it wrong for me to honestly, genuinely believe that anyone who doesn't see the Doors as the greatest rock band ever is wrong? Even though I KNOW that's just my biased, subjective opinion, it really is what I think! Is it wrong for me to say that? Does my belief in my inherent correctness on the Doors make me or you any less the Creator?

I sincerely want to discuss this dietary issue peacefully, and with respect for all parties and viewpoints. But by definition, in order to argue my case I have to come from the perspective that I'm biased, yes, but I BELIEVE my vegetarian view to be the RIGHT one. Is this not appropriate forum behavior?

Some of the hurt amongst the vegetarians is because our very right to believe as we do is constantly challenged. It has honestly seemed to me, at times, that some of the critics will not be satisfied unless the vegetarians say "We don't believe meat eating is wrong."

To me, expecting that kind of concession is just as unreasonable as to ask a meat eater to say "We believe being vegetarian is better."

I think it's reasonable here to agree to disagree, not for anyone to set aside their convictions. How do you see it?

Never entered my mind that you would trap me, my brother.

Ankh, thank you for that vote of confidence, as it implies a certain level of trust, that I also feel about you. We don't know eachother very well, but I view you as a person worthy of respect, consideration, and even admiration. I clearly don't agree with you on diet, but this fact is far outweighed by my overall view of you as the Creator and appreciation for your Beingness. I enjoy your warm energy and your thoughtful posts, and this colors my perception of you, but in a good way. I think it helps me to "hear" your side of the argument even though I disagree. You see, you gave me the benefit of the doubt -- and I think that part of the reason for that is that there is mutual respect and an overall harmonious forum relationship with me. Would this have been possible if there was tension between us? Maybe, maybe not, but I think an underpinning of respect goes along way towards more constructive conversations.

I wonder if there would have been less misunderstandings on this thread if there had been better relationships between participants?

I believe if all of us working together could RESTORE some respect and harmony in our basic forum relationships with everyone here, that the conversation would get back on track. Whether we do that is up to all of us -- as a group and individually to decide. We can keep devolving into hurt feelings and arguments, or we can resume [b]constructively[/i] discussing our views on the topic of meat eating in the spiritual context, if we choose it. I just don't think we can discuss constructively anymore without reinforcing our foundation of all Other-Selves are the Creator and every one of us has the absolute right to our own opinion.

I can't speak for others, but what I believe that I have observed here is the lack of the respect that has been missing many times in this thread. Do you agree with that observation?

Yes, I do, I have observed the same thing. Though I would make the distinction that I have seen it coming from both meat eaters AND vegetarians, not just one other the other. It pains me, especially because I really enjoy the energy and thought processes of a whole host of people that are divided on this issue. I don't want to judge anybody and reject viewing other people as simply a dietary position.

I believe that any topic of discussion, no matter how volatile or sensitive it is, could and should be discussed in this forum; but when/if members apply respect and consideration when speaking to each other, no matter how their opinions are unlike each other, there will be more harmonious discussions.

I completely, 100% agree with this. This holds true for any discussion here, but maybe it is especially important for volatile topics that we all make an extra effort to be respectful and considerate towards eachother.

For me, though, advocating for animal rights is part of my growth process. I see animals as Other-Selves, and right now there is a vast system of suffering and cruelty in place on earth to raise meat that I don't believe is necessary. I "hear" this dull throbbing scream in the ether from millions of other beings, and it affects me. It could be my own internal distortions, of course, but this is who I am and this is how I feel about it. I don't expect agreement about my views, but I hope that understanding of where I am coming from is at least possible.

Thank you for telling this. I believe that I, now, gained understanding for those coming from the place you are coming from.

Then I consider that I have achieved something positive. If you better understand the place I am coming from, you will probably find it easier to show compassion and be less judgemental even if you disagree. At least, this is the effect that hearing your perspective had upon me. I am more at peace and have a less one-sided view, even if my basic opinion remains.

I say again, agreement is in no way necessary for peace and understanding.

Totally understand what you mean, just don't agree with it.

I am thinking that *if* people do notice what I do and do not eat, it might make them uneasy and concerned that I am not eating what they have to offer. Out of concern for other selves, I would choose in the future when/if going veg, to not announce my at that time vegetarian food choice.

I really enjoy reading "I understand what you meant but don't agree". I really do, because at least it's constructive progress!! What this tells me is that we both sometimes find ourselves in a tricky situation where there are multiple ways of handling it and Other-selves (and our own Self) are important in the equation. It means you have a different way of handling the confusing catalyst of 3D than I do... but your intentions -- to honor Self and Other-Self -- are the same as my own, we just have different approaches for dealing with it. And that's OK.

I also believe that there exists pride many times when vegetarians convey their food choice, and I believe that taking no pride in any of the choices is the right path (for me).

I have seen this pride you speak of from some vegetarians as well. Each person is different, but all I can say is I do not consider myself in any way superior to people who do still eat meat. Seriously, we are total equals. However, I am proud of the fact that I made a choice that that I believe does good in this world, especially when that choice comes with some negative social consequences. Does that make me better in ANY way? Of course not! But can you see perhaps why a vegetarian might be proud of making a choice that they believe will truly help?

Again, thank you for sharing. I don't share these distortions, but I understand now.

And my sincerest thanks to you as well.

Alas, I have never been to fair Sweden, but I hope to make it there one day.

If you ever do, it would be a true honor to meet you, my dear another self.

The honor would be all mine!! I'm still talking myself into going to Homecoming this year, but who knows.

So, I can't comment on the specific term, but I have encountered the term "biological" in other countries in Northern (Well, NW) Europe, such as Holland & Germany. Perhaps that is what you mean?

It is called "ecological" in Sweden. Don't know about the "biological" term.

Well thank you for educating us on this Swedish term!! It sounds better than both Organic and Biological if it really does come with the animal treatment regulations that you described. This is exactly why it is so helpful to have so many different voices.

Sister, I think I share your struggle with this. If there is one thing that pushes my buttons, it's people forcing their views on another. We had a new member who in the past spent alot of time pressing his views on others in a hundred different threads, and I really struggled with acceptance there. I had to pray and meditate on him daily for weeks before I finally got some balance and clarity, and love returned.

Did you see it as an "in your face/throat" technique?

Yes, I did. I felt like it was the equivalent of an evangelist pounding on my door and shouting at me and my neighbors that they must follow the one true way and see the "folly" of their ways for any who disagreed. I also felt it to be ironic to hear someone claim advanced development while simultaneously demonstrating a lower level of development by that very "in your face" behavior. It did not seem respectful especially because the information was not requested.

But one major difference was this person was posting up on average a dozen threads per day about this topic and was interrupting other conversations. Here it is confined to one single thread.

To me, this thread is not like the PETA billboards where people are forced to constantly see the views of others and have it in your face.

Here in this thread, I don't really see the vegetarians using what I would call "in your face" tactics, and in fact is partly why I wanted to clarify with you earlier about the billboards. I do see a difference in the context -- the setting -- of where this conversation is taking place. One thread, clearly marked. It's just that the emotional discord has started overshadowing the actual topic and I think people are reacting more to subjective inner feelings than what is actually being said.

I also think that the information is requested by participation here. When we voluntarily join a discussion in a clearly marked topic with eachother that interests us, I believe the very fact that it is done in a discussion forum invites Other-selves to share their perspective.

I understand what you are saying here. Definitely! I found peace and understanding in that due the changes I experienced in that person (edit: I mean changes in the approach, and that these same changes apply to myself as well. That there were changes in my approach as well). And now, hopefully, I am very close to finding it in this thread as well. It doesn't change the fact though, that I do experience difficulties when meeting this kind of the technique; when people are pressing their opinions upon others with no consideration and/or respect for another self, or whom they are discussing with.

Do you understand me now? And how I struggle, in the light of the above by you described experiences, with that in this thread?

Yes, I think I do see your point here. I can see some of the parallels and why this thread would affect you in a similar fashion. And maybe the fact that I'm also suddenly in the middle of all this is because I'm working on some similar issues. Perhaps, in a way, it is helpful to both of us that we are discussing a topic now from two different specific perspectives and yet are starting to see how it fits into a wider lesson of acceptance of people we perceive as too disrespectful and pushy.

I want to thank you for taking the time to explain yourself and your perspective. In these last posts I have really appreciated your openness and willingness to find some common ground and mutual understanding.

It's moments like these that give me hope it is possible to disagree and yet still have harmony and mutual respect.

I'm really working on this right now, so maybe I can share animal Other-selves. I doesn't justify my or their behavior, but may help you to forgive it. I hope so anyway.

Thank you for sharing, my brother.

And thank YOU for sharing as well, dear sister.

Love to all