01-11-2012, 12:33 AM
Hey Tenet, I appreciate your thoughtful conversation!
It's a good question. I don't know for sure. I think "citizen" may be a good one- I'll elaborate under your examples:
So, currency is one of the facets of the technological society we collectively agree to live in. But at the risk of going off topic, why do you say that we are forced to take on debt? Western society may encourage it, but it is in no way obligatory- in fact there are many people who live debt free as financial philosophy.
I think I might be missing the intention behind your example- If they ran away and were not caught again, then they would no longer be slaves. Of course, up to the point that they actually do run away, they would be slaves. The cost of being caught could bring extreme pain in the form of torture, separation of loved ones or death, so I don't really see that they are free to leave whenever they choose.
I'm keen on this example because my wife and I both just renewed our drivers' licenses. The ladies who run our DMV are slave drivers in their own right. Kidding
Anyways, for the above situations I simply view these as facets of the society in which we live. I don't know how to describe them except as aspects of participatory citizenship in a society with some form of structured governmental system. We might discuss how such things are for the betterment or detriment of humans, but at the end of the day it is a system with voluntary participants. We can leave the system if we chose to, we have freedom to do so. Contrarily the slave on a plantation could chose the same, but not freely, and it might end terribly.
As for social security cards, taxes and et cetera- yes, those things are included in our society today. You can't have the American society without those things in the same way that you can't get physically fit without working out. You don't have to be an American though, and you don't have to be physically fit (not in any way trying to imply those things go hand in hand, lol)
There is one caveat though. Conspiracy theories about shadowy supreme lords running everything behind the scenes aside, we exist in a participatory government. If enough people want to change the law, the law will change. We elect officials, vote on referendums and et cetera. Even public demonstration (protests, movements, etc.) that does not directly participate with government can change the societal climate and sway political leaders (E.g. backlash against Veitnam war and military draft, more recently Arab spring).
To sum up my feelings on the matter, slavery exists where entities are forced under pain of death, etc. to do the bidding of another or group of others, as a loose definition. It's a strong term and has a specific meaning, and IMO it's a disservice to people who exist under *real* slavery systems to say that tax laws, etc, make one a slave. I don't think there are any qualities of American society that meet the definition. Even people who have been accused of crimes are always afforded a trial. I might go as far as saying that present day western societies may be the most free in Earth history, desite our abundance of codified laws and regulations. That isn't to say that all governments meet this standard- I have serious questions about North Korea for example. Have you read the book, 1984? There are remarkable similarities.
Anyways, this is the opinion I have at the present- of course it's just my opinions and may not be correct. And I'm open to being shown the error of my ways.
Love and Light
Eric
(01-10-2012, 12:16 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: It would appear from your comments that there is a certain degree of free will abridgment which is necessary to meet the criteria of "slave". What word would you use to characterize that gap between being a slave, according to your view, and being totally free to do as one will?
It's a good question. I don't know for sure. I think "citizen" may be a good one- I'll elaborate under your examples:
(01-10-2012, 12:16 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: Three examples for clarification:
1. We are all forced to use paper currency to discharge our public debts. Moreover, we are forced to take this debt upon ourselves as "citizens" of various cities/counties/states/nations. What would you call this?
So, currency is one of the facets of the technological society we collectively agree to live in. But at the risk of going off topic, why do you say that we are forced to take on debt? Western society may encourage it, but it is in no way obligatory- in fact there are many people who live debt free as financial philosophy.
(01-10-2012, 12:16 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: 2. A given slave working on a plantation 200 years ago had the "free will" to choose to run away and attempt to make a life foraging for food and shelter in the mountains or woods. Does that detract from their enslavement?
I think I might be missing the intention behind your example- If they ran away and were not caught again, then they would no longer be slaves. Of course, up to the point that they actually do run away, they would be slaves. The cost of being caught could bring extreme pain in the form of torture, separation of loved ones or death, so I don't really see that they are free to leave whenever they choose.
(01-10-2012, 12:16 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: 3. Americans may not be forced to get a Driver License, but we are forced to get Birth Certificates and Social Security Cards. Also- any land that we may happen to "own" is subject to forced taxation (payable only in US Dollars) to various municipalities. What word would you use to describe these types of situations?
I'm keen on this example because my wife and I both just renewed our drivers' licenses. The ladies who run our DMV are slave drivers in their own right. Kidding
Anyways, for the above situations I simply view these as facets of the society in which we live. I don't know how to describe them except as aspects of participatory citizenship in a society with some form of structured governmental system. We might discuss how such things are for the betterment or detriment of humans, but at the end of the day it is a system with voluntary participants. We can leave the system if we chose to, we have freedom to do so. Contrarily the slave on a plantation could chose the same, but not freely, and it might end terribly.
As for social security cards, taxes and et cetera- yes, those things are included in our society today. You can't have the American society without those things in the same way that you can't get physically fit without working out. You don't have to be an American though, and you don't have to be physically fit (not in any way trying to imply those things go hand in hand, lol)
There is one caveat though. Conspiracy theories about shadowy supreme lords running everything behind the scenes aside, we exist in a participatory government. If enough people want to change the law, the law will change. We elect officials, vote on referendums and et cetera. Even public demonstration (protests, movements, etc.) that does not directly participate with government can change the societal climate and sway political leaders (E.g. backlash against Veitnam war and military draft, more recently Arab spring).
To sum up my feelings on the matter, slavery exists where entities are forced under pain of death, etc. to do the bidding of another or group of others, as a loose definition. It's a strong term and has a specific meaning, and IMO it's a disservice to people who exist under *real* slavery systems to say that tax laws, etc, make one a slave. I don't think there are any qualities of American society that meet the definition. Even people who have been accused of crimes are always afforded a trial. I might go as far as saying that present day western societies may be the most free in Earth history, desite our abundance of codified laws and regulations. That isn't to say that all governments meet this standard- I have serious questions about North Korea for example. Have you read the book, 1984? There are remarkable similarities.
Anyways, this is the opinion I have at the present- of course it's just my opinions and may not be correct. And I'm open to being shown the error of my ways.
Love and Light
Eric