I think I'm the authority on English language and culture here.
When you use the honorifics that I presented, people are aware that you believe they are wrong. It's clear that you are telling them they are wrong.
You're just telling them they're wrong in a polite way. It does not give the impression you think they are right. It gives the impression you think they are wrong, and that you respect them, and that you wish you help them not put them down.
Seriously. When Namaste tells me I'm wrong on this forum, I know it. I don't mistakenly think he is agreeing with me. He's an example of a very polite English speaker who tells people they are wrong all the time.
In Turkish, people might mistakenly believe you're agreeing with them.
In English, people know you are disagreeing, but they believe you are "disagreeing respectfully and with kindness" rather than "disagreeing disrespectfully in order to put them down and make them inferior to you."
People in Canada will correct others out of a desire to dominate them. For instance in Canada if Alice says, "The tower is 3000 feet high," Bill could reply, "You are wrong. The tower is 2410 feet high. How could it possibly be 3000 feet high when the highest tower in the world is only 2940 feet? This proves you are wrong. You need to go back and read your high school textbooks to get re-acquainted with the height of towers."
In Canada, there is more to Bill's message than just the logical, literal content of the message. Bill's message also carries an implication: "you are stupid, I am smarter than you, you failed to learn your high school and you were wrong, therefore you are inferior and I am superior. You should be ashamed of yourself for being so wrong."
It's called "saving face"
Alternatively, if Bill said, "More precisely, the tower is 2410 feet. I think this is an important point because it's not actually the tallest tower in the world, the tallest is 2940 feet. I remember this from my high school textbook which talked about tower heights, it was a very informative book and I think you would benefit by giving it a re-read, Alice."
Exact same logical content. Significantly more polite and less offensive. Does not carry the implication that Bill is superior to Alice and that Alice should be ashamed of her ignorance.
That graphic is meant to be a joke. There is truth to your criticism of the language and culture, however it is possible to be polite while still being honest.
I agree that many people in this culture will tell lies to avoid telling the truth. I don't advocate this, or do this.
Those are exactly the same. The only part of communication that matters is how it is perceived.
Unity, why do you always ditch as soon as I feel like we're getting somewhere?
And why so resistant to taking criticism of your English? Is it impossible to consider that maybe I know the language better than you?
When you use the honorifics that I presented, people are aware that you believe they are wrong. It's clear that you are telling them they are wrong.
You're just telling them they're wrong in a polite way. It does not give the impression you think they are right. It gives the impression you think they are wrong, and that you respect them, and that you wish you help them not put them down.
Seriously. When Namaste tells me I'm wrong on this forum, I know it. I don't mistakenly think he is agreeing with me. He's an example of a very polite English speaker who tells people they are wrong all the time.
In Turkish, people might mistakenly believe you're agreeing with them.
In English, people know you are disagreeing, but they believe you are "disagreeing respectfully and with kindness" rather than "disagreeing disrespectfully in order to put them down and make them inferior to you."
People in Canada will correct others out of a desire to dominate them. For instance in Canada if Alice says, "The tower is 3000 feet high," Bill could reply, "You are wrong. The tower is 2410 feet high. How could it possibly be 3000 feet high when the highest tower in the world is only 2940 feet? This proves you are wrong. You need to go back and read your high school textbooks to get re-acquainted with the height of towers."
In Canada, there is more to Bill's message than just the logical, literal content of the message. Bill's message also carries an implication: "you are stupid, I am smarter than you, you failed to learn your high school and you were wrong, therefore you are inferior and I am superior. You should be ashamed of yourself for being so wrong."
It's called "saving face"
Alternatively, if Bill said, "More precisely, the tower is 2410 feet. I think this is an important point because it's not actually the tallest tower in the world, the tallest is 2940 feet. I remember this from my high school textbook which talked about tower heights, it was a very informative book and I think you would benefit by giving it a re-read, Alice."
Exact same logical content. Significantly more polite and less offensive. Does not carry the implication that Bill is superior to Alice and that Alice should be ashamed of her ignorance.
(11-07-2011, 05:57 PM)unity100 Wrote: you can use this conversion table. even if this is the extreme end, and only in britain, it conveys the fakery/underhandedness in politespeak in anglosphere quite well.
with this, i cease my participation in this topic. anyone who would want to respond to me regarding this topic, can find my answer already pre-typed in my last 3-4 posts.
That graphic is meant to be a joke. There is truth to your criticism of the language and culture, however it is possible to be polite while still being honest.
I agree that many people in this culture will tell lies to avoid telling the truth. I don't advocate this, or do this.
(11-07-2011, 05:51 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote:(11-07-2011, 05:37 PM)yossarian Wrote: Unity is right -- it's really hard to express disagreement in the Anglosphere without being impolite.
I think it would be more accurate to say, "it's really hard to express disagreement in the Anglosphere without being perceived as impolite."
Those are exactly the same. The only part of communication that matters is how it is perceived.
Unity, why do you always ditch as soon as I feel like we're getting somewhere?
And why so resistant to taking criticism of your English? Is it impossible to consider that maybe I know the language better than you?