Acceptance and Will

[Monica]

Wow, thanks to spero, Az and Ens for joining the thread. I was getting frustrated at the verbal rock throwing (I meant that in a good way ) that two terrific people were engaged in. There's nothing wrong with having passion in point making, by the way.

I too am glad that others have joined in. Of course I never intended my own words to be construed as 'verbal rock throwing' but I can see how they seem that way, when a topic is hotly debated. This has been very frustrating and exhausting for me.

...murder is an extreme example of bumbling and experiencing. Mass murders, such as the industrialized version of Nazi-ism or the horrific goings on in Cambodia and Stalinist era USSR, were probably carried out mostly by loyal, deluded and dedicated followers rather than STS choosers. Some inner circle henchmen of those leaders may have chosen STS, but most of the carriers out of the murderous policies were enslaved more than intending toward STS, IMO.

Very true.

I don't think that a 3Der who chooses STS will start packing a gun and look for targets. That's bumbling. The job of an STSer is to follow the orders of his/her recruiter and start recruiting his/her own followers with promises of power or secret knowledge or just, initially, a better life. I submit that murder is a product of our 3D physical, mental and spiritual noise most of the time.

Probably true in most cases. However, many of these bumblers are on the path towards STS polarization, if they don't find healing along the way.

I think that I can accept and love a murderer even as I deplore that behavior.

Absolutely agreed! This is where choice comes in.

If one of them points a gun at a loved one, I hope that I would try to intervene by pleading with that person to think it through. I also hope that I would stand in the way of the bullet as I do this. This would be service to the loved one AND to the bumbler by my informed accepting of a possible outcome.

It has been a given to me that STO entities would attempt to reason with the aggressor, or use some way of neutralizing the aggression in a non-violent way, before resorting to physical force. Thank you for stating what to me was obvious. It needed to be spelled out.

---

We've been discussing the scenario of a murder. It has been stated (which I disagree with) that stopping the STS-oriented action is, itself, an STS action, and that the only way to respond in an STO way is to surrender to the STS action.

So let's take this a step further. What is murder, but a form of abuse?

By the above logic, does this mean that other forms of abuse should be treated the same way? For a principle to be sound, it must be applicable in similar situations. Surely, abuse is similar to murder. They're the same, basically - just further gradations of dominating an other-self. So if the principle works for a murder scenario, it should also work for an abuse scenario. Let's test it out.

Does this mean that the wife of an alcoholic, physically abusive husband should submit to the physical beatings he imposes on her?

After all, it is the husband's free will to beat his wife! By refusing to let him beat her, she is controlling and manipulating him, which are STS actions, according to the logic that has been offered.

So, following the logic, she should accept the beatings, even to the point of her children watching and growing up believing that this is how men are supposed to treat their wives: like property, things to do with as they wish.

Those male children, in turn, grow up to be abusive, and the cycle continues...Or maybe they even grow up to be...murderers, because they took the cycle of abuse to a higher level. They watched their father repeatedly beat their mother, and learned how to control, manipulate, and harm those who are weaker than they. And the girl child learned to submit to those who are stronger, and she in turn marries an abusive man....and the cycle continues.

What it really boils down to is this: Just what is the highest principle here?