06-11-2021, 09:06 AM
I wanted to reply yesterday but didn't have time. Gonna get this one done before i get to working.
I complete understand your repulsion toward snake oil salesmen and gurus. I have the same. However I also feel sorry for skeptics. As IME most so called "skeptics" are just as set in their beliefs as the mystical guru's, they just claim materialism and science, as they understand it, are the final arbiters of Truth ™ instead of some mystical being.
The article on the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy is a good example. The website might as well be called "I am right and you are wrong." Then, instead of explaining the fallacy with an unbiased and clear example, the author spends an eternity prattling on about prophecy and other stuff which they seem to have a hard on for "debunking", before they even attempt to explain what the fallacy is.
The question for me is are these groups being honest based on their own beliefs? A person like the amazing Randi and his famous million dollar challenge has a vested interest in never believing in anything paranormal. Even if they started out honest, once they spend decades with that kind of money on the line and build an identity around being "skeptical" they become just as invested in that identity as a mystical charlatan. I guess the skeptical community rarely has anyone trying to get you to spend thousands of dollars on online courses or workshops, so maybe their are fewer con artists who enter that field.
If we discount the outright con artists from the "alternative" world and look at people who believe what they are saying, then we have an interesting situation. Both camps are basically full of people who believe they have something valuable to share, one being something not generally recognized by the world, and the skeptics basically viewing what the mystic camp shares as being harmful since it is not proven.
Very few people are adept at logic, and even people who are still make mistakes all the time without knowing it. The problem with scientific rigor is that it is a very involved method that only functions to increase the chances something is not false. The method itself can never prove something is true. That so many people misunderstand the scientific method and misapply it, including actual scientists, just goes to show how difficult it is to ever be completely logical.
I would say that everyone places their own inner authority higher than logic, since everyone believes they have come to their conclusions logically
You want to place logic higher than all individuals, but logic which exists as a concept and logic which is used by people are two different things. If A < B and B < C then C > A will always be a logically true formulation given the existing parameters of reality.
But each individual is not just a logical machine, we are half logical and half intuitive. In Kaballah this is represented by Chokmah (wisdom) and Binah (understanding). The combination is Daath (Knowledge). While I typically explain Chokmah as experience and Binah as book learning, another view is that Chokmah is logical while Binah is Intuitive. Knowledge requires the blending of intuition and logic.
The fundamental difference IMO between the mystic camp and the skeptic camp is that each is heavily biased toward one way of exploring the world or the other. I personally think most people in both camps are honest in that they believe in what they are sharing.
I try to be as open as possible to new information from both a logical and intuitive point of view. I try to use logic to reconcile and explain my intuitive understandings. Sometimes the intuitive understanding is modified or thrown out, and sometimes the logic is thrown out because both can be flawed.
To answer your main question, I don't think those who don't honor logic are deceitful egomaniacs in general. I think they are intuition biased people who suck at logic but are attempting to communicate in that manner due to our cultural beliefs.
I think the deceitful egomaniacs are just as likely to use logic as anything else to gain power and influence as well. Sometimes more so than appealing to intuition.
I complete understand your repulsion toward snake oil salesmen and gurus. I have the same. However I also feel sorry for skeptics. As IME most so called "skeptics" are just as set in their beliefs as the mystical guru's, they just claim materialism and science, as they understand it, are the final arbiters of Truth ™ instead of some mystical being.
The article on the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy is a good example. The website might as well be called "I am right and you are wrong." Then, instead of explaining the fallacy with an unbiased and clear example, the author spends an eternity prattling on about prophecy and other stuff which they seem to have a hard on for "debunking", before they even attempt to explain what the fallacy is.
The question for me is are these groups being honest based on their own beliefs? A person like the amazing Randi and his famous million dollar challenge has a vested interest in never believing in anything paranormal. Even if they started out honest, once they spend decades with that kind of money on the line and build an identity around being "skeptical" they become just as invested in that identity as a mystical charlatan. I guess the skeptical community rarely has anyone trying to get you to spend thousands of dollars on online courses or workshops, so maybe their are fewer con artists who enter that field.
If we discount the outright con artists from the "alternative" world and look at people who believe what they are saying, then we have an interesting situation. Both camps are basically full of people who believe they have something valuable to share, one being something not generally recognized by the world, and the skeptics basically viewing what the mystic camp shares as being harmful since it is not proven.
Very few people are adept at logic, and even people who are still make mistakes all the time without knowing it. The problem with scientific rigor is that it is a very involved method that only functions to increase the chances something is not false. The method itself can never prove something is true. That so many people misunderstand the scientific method and misapply it, including actual scientists, just goes to show how difficult it is to ever be completely logical.
I would say that everyone places their own inner authority higher than logic, since everyone believes they have come to their conclusions logically
You want to place logic higher than all individuals, but logic which exists as a concept and logic which is used by people are two different things. If A < B and B < C then C > A will always be a logically true formulation given the existing parameters of reality. But each individual is not just a logical machine, we are half logical and half intuitive. In Kaballah this is represented by Chokmah (wisdom) and Binah (understanding). The combination is Daath (Knowledge). While I typically explain Chokmah as experience and Binah as book learning, another view is that Chokmah is logical while Binah is Intuitive. Knowledge requires the blending of intuition and logic.
The fundamental difference IMO between the mystic camp and the skeptic camp is that each is heavily biased toward one way of exploring the world or the other. I personally think most people in both camps are honest in that they believe in what they are sharing.
I try to be as open as possible to new information from both a logical and intuitive point of view. I try to use logic to reconcile and explain my intuitive understandings. Sometimes the intuitive understanding is modified or thrown out, and sometimes the logic is thrown out because both can be flawed.
To answer your main question, I don't think those who don't honor logic are deceitful egomaniacs in general. I think they are intuition biased people who suck at logic but are attempting to communicate in that manner due to our cultural beliefs.
I think the deceitful egomaniacs are just as likely to use logic as anything else to gain power and influence as well. Sometimes more so than appealing to intuition.