04-16-2020, 01:48 AM
"This is not about being right or convincing anybody."
I think you and I are quite frankly not really fully having the same discussion here. LEt me break down my stance here: regarding my PERSONAL life, sure. I agree it is a good idea to get a good therapist.
Regarding a major societal issue that is currently going unaddressed because of attitudes that get put into the zeitgeist, expressing sentiments like yours and sillypumpkin's, I wholeheartedly disagree.
Let me make something clear, the problem here in the US is more than systemic. It is cultural.
The entire attitude is different.
Pills are seen as a solution by many therapists as well as by the culture at large, and instead of trying to really understand the problem, many therapists simply revert to their schooling and try to figure out which box to place the patient in: this disorder, that disorder, this neat label, that neat little box of categorization, etc. and then reduce the problem to it's label disorder rather than really seek to truly understand it, because that would be inconveninet. When it is children and teens, they are commonly ignored and told to conform to often toxic parental expectations in order to behave properly, because behaviour is seen as more important than actual emotional and mental health, hence, the pills and the bad advice. Not to mention they want to avoid lawsuits because America is a very litigious nation and because it is the parents paying for the sessions. All too often, therapists in America are willing to act as enforcers for the parents of the children and teens they are supposed to be helping, for those very reasons. Even when the parents are very toxic and emotionally abusive.
When it is adults, the same applies, minus the parental coercion. Although, if a patient seeks to cut ties from a toxic family, they are met with extreme reactionary pressures to not do it, not because it's what's really in the patients' best interest, but because it makes the therapist uncomfortable to think of such things, because they refuse to be open to their own way of life challenged. Their own comfort zone. And possibly even challenged to take a closer look at their own familial relationships. Projection is also a "2 way street" in therapy all too often in America. Any patient who is not easy to deal with is unloaded onto whoever they can be unloaded onto, because most don't want to deal with patients in the most need of healing.
Then there are the mental hospitals. From what you would read on the internet, they SWEAR up and down that those places are no longer draconian and horrible hell holes, and that the "Nurse Ratchet" depiction is just an outdated Hollywood movie trope. It's not. Ask most people who have been in and out of such facilities and they will tell you it's absolutely HORRIFYING how "patients" are treated there. I'm talking rape. I'm talking pills so powerful you don't even know what's going on and are left a slobbering idiot with no awareness whatsoever and no memory of what happens you're pilled up, used as a favourite form of punishment for getting on a staff ember's bad side in any way shape or form, with no compassion or empathy anywhere in sight. I am talking about treating the "patients" like animals, if even. But then putting on a show if being observed and making sure srticles inaccurately reflect the true state of mental facilities, because it's not like people are going to pay too much attention, care or listen to what these crazies have to say anyway when "professional" sources contradict it. Keep them prisoner to milk insurance companies. Etc. etc. Often, they are driven MORE insane than when they went in.
There is a serious problem within the mental health industry in America (and I DO mean INDUSTRY) where people are just labeled with some convenient, yet not truly accurate, surface level representing categorization for the sake of convenience and prescribed pills and prescribed a treatment plan that more focuses on behaviour than it does on actual healing, because the APPEARANCE is what is cared about, not the actuality. This is all too common.
MY problem is this: I am bringing up this problem and expressing frustration with how it is swept under the rug and ignored by people, and low and behold, you and sillypumpkin prove my point.
All to often, attitudes of "you're just not trying hard enough" or "you're not putting in enough effort" are made rather presumptuously and used as a means of handwaving or delegitimizing the issue.
Add on top of that, ridiculous assertions such as yours that at worst, bad therapy is MERELY unhelpful, but not harmful, and you have a problem that becomes an elephant in the room and anybody who addresses this elephant in the room gets met with unfair assumptions and derisive attitudes.
Nothing changes because nobody admits anything is in NEED of changing.
Yes, there are PLENTY of good therapists. You know what there are far more of? People in NEED of good therapists. Unfortunately, the demand seems to far exceed the supply and so many out there are unwilling to acknowledge that, that the problem is inevitably swept under the rug and ignored, as are the concerns of the people most affected by it.
Since you like to appeal to your years of experience on the matter, don't take my word for it. Take Daniel Mackler's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2-p4A7Bl6s&t=4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Fi32LbXHA&t=4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8yvva76eDc&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqvqLUSNv98&t=3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVuGPT6QBEc&t=5s
He used to BE a psychotherapist in the US and HIS experiences have left him feeling majourly disillusioned, as is the case for many patients as well.
Whenever this disillusionment is expressed, it is sadly quite frequently met with these kinds of responses. In your case, it may just be because you are German. I don't know what country sillypumpkin is from.
Anyway, you're assertion that bad therapy is at worst useless and does no harm is patently false.
I shall take your advice to heart Agua, I just encourage you to open your mind to the possibility that regardless of what you think you know about therapy, there may me more to it than you are really catching. I invite you to consider that the things I have just talked about might actually be a legitimate issue for at least the United States, and are in actual need of both addressing and changing. I invite sillypumplkin and anybody who cosigns either of your statements on the matter to seriously consider this as well.
I'm not saying there's anything you can DO about it, just that it's something to acknowledge and not dismiss.
As for HOW it can/should be changed? I don't know exactly, but I can tell you how it WON'T change: by refusing to even consider that it is a real thing. Or by refusing to consider that it is more than a rare occurrence.
--------------------------------
That being said, that doesn't mean I can't still endeavor to find and utilize a good therapist myself. I am not denying that I might still yet do it. I think you misunderstood what my real issue is with the subject and mistook it to merely be one based entirely on my own experiences and limited to literally just one (another unfair assumption)
Like I said, I will still take your advice to heart.
I see your point that a GOOD therapist is worth their weight in gold, and I do not argue with that. I shall endeavor to get the therapy I need. It may take some time and a lot of effort finding a way to make the stars align though. Probably.
As for personal relationships, yeah, I'm afraid to put that kind of burden onto a personal relationship. I see it as inevitably ending in disaster and more painful disconnection and sense of damaged trust. I don't want that.
As for me personally though, it probably would be for the best that I do whatever I need to do to get the best therapy possible for me. I understand how important it will be to improve my healing. I just wish there were enough of these kinds of people to go around.
I can't really see it working to get anybody else for help. It's too much to expect of them, and most couldn't anyway, even if they wanted to.
Thanks again for the advice Agua. Now to find out how I can even find a therapist who isn't of little use or worse...
I think you and I are quite frankly not really fully having the same discussion here. LEt me break down my stance here: regarding my PERSONAL life, sure. I agree it is a good idea to get a good therapist.
Regarding a major societal issue that is currently going unaddressed because of attitudes that get put into the zeitgeist, expressing sentiments like yours and sillypumpkin's, I wholeheartedly disagree.
Let me make something clear, the problem here in the US is more than systemic. It is cultural.
The entire attitude is different.
Pills are seen as a solution by many therapists as well as by the culture at large, and instead of trying to really understand the problem, many therapists simply revert to their schooling and try to figure out which box to place the patient in: this disorder, that disorder, this neat label, that neat little box of categorization, etc. and then reduce the problem to it's label disorder rather than really seek to truly understand it, because that would be inconveninet. When it is children and teens, they are commonly ignored and told to conform to often toxic parental expectations in order to behave properly, because behaviour is seen as more important than actual emotional and mental health, hence, the pills and the bad advice. Not to mention they want to avoid lawsuits because America is a very litigious nation and because it is the parents paying for the sessions. All too often, therapists in America are willing to act as enforcers for the parents of the children and teens they are supposed to be helping, for those very reasons. Even when the parents are very toxic and emotionally abusive.
When it is adults, the same applies, minus the parental coercion. Although, if a patient seeks to cut ties from a toxic family, they are met with extreme reactionary pressures to not do it, not because it's what's really in the patients' best interest, but because it makes the therapist uncomfortable to think of such things, because they refuse to be open to their own way of life challenged. Their own comfort zone. And possibly even challenged to take a closer look at their own familial relationships. Projection is also a "2 way street" in therapy all too often in America. Any patient who is not easy to deal with is unloaded onto whoever they can be unloaded onto, because most don't want to deal with patients in the most need of healing.
Then there are the mental hospitals. From what you would read on the internet, they SWEAR up and down that those places are no longer draconian and horrible hell holes, and that the "Nurse Ratchet" depiction is just an outdated Hollywood movie trope. It's not. Ask most people who have been in and out of such facilities and they will tell you it's absolutely HORRIFYING how "patients" are treated there. I'm talking rape. I'm talking pills so powerful you don't even know what's going on and are left a slobbering idiot with no awareness whatsoever and no memory of what happens you're pilled up, used as a favourite form of punishment for getting on a staff ember's bad side in any way shape or form, with no compassion or empathy anywhere in sight. I am talking about treating the "patients" like animals, if even. But then putting on a show if being observed and making sure srticles inaccurately reflect the true state of mental facilities, because it's not like people are going to pay too much attention, care or listen to what these crazies have to say anyway when "professional" sources contradict it. Keep them prisoner to milk insurance companies. Etc. etc. Often, they are driven MORE insane than when they went in.
There is a serious problem within the mental health industry in America (and I DO mean INDUSTRY) where people are just labeled with some convenient, yet not truly accurate, surface level representing categorization for the sake of convenience and prescribed pills and prescribed a treatment plan that more focuses on behaviour than it does on actual healing, because the APPEARANCE is what is cared about, not the actuality. This is all too common.
MY problem is this: I am bringing up this problem and expressing frustration with how it is swept under the rug and ignored by people, and low and behold, you and sillypumpkin prove my point.
All to often, attitudes of "you're just not trying hard enough" or "you're not putting in enough effort" are made rather presumptuously and used as a means of handwaving or delegitimizing the issue.
Add on top of that, ridiculous assertions such as yours that at worst, bad therapy is MERELY unhelpful, but not harmful, and you have a problem that becomes an elephant in the room and anybody who addresses this elephant in the room gets met with unfair assumptions and derisive attitudes.
Nothing changes because nobody admits anything is in NEED of changing.
Yes, there are PLENTY of good therapists. You know what there are far more of? People in NEED of good therapists. Unfortunately, the demand seems to far exceed the supply and so many out there are unwilling to acknowledge that, that the problem is inevitably swept under the rug and ignored, as are the concerns of the people most affected by it.
Since you like to appeal to your years of experience on the matter, don't take my word for it. Take Daniel Mackler's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2-p4A7Bl6s&t=4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Fi32LbXHA&t=4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8yvva76eDc&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqvqLUSNv98&t=3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVuGPT6QBEc&t=5s
He used to BE a psychotherapist in the US and HIS experiences have left him feeling majourly disillusioned, as is the case for many patients as well.
Whenever this disillusionment is expressed, it is sadly quite frequently met with these kinds of responses. In your case, it may just be because you are German. I don't know what country sillypumpkin is from.
Anyway, you're assertion that bad therapy is at worst useless and does no harm is patently false.
I shall take your advice to heart Agua, I just encourage you to open your mind to the possibility that regardless of what you think you know about therapy, there may me more to it than you are really catching. I invite you to consider that the things I have just talked about might actually be a legitimate issue for at least the United States, and are in actual need of both addressing and changing. I invite sillypumplkin and anybody who cosigns either of your statements on the matter to seriously consider this as well.
I'm not saying there's anything you can DO about it, just that it's something to acknowledge and not dismiss.
As for HOW it can/should be changed? I don't know exactly, but I can tell you how it WON'T change: by refusing to even consider that it is a real thing. Or by refusing to consider that it is more than a rare occurrence.
--------------------------------
That being said, that doesn't mean I can't still endeavor to find and utilize a good therapist myself. I am not denying that I might still yet do it. I think you misunderstood what my real issue is with the subject and mistook it to merely be one based entirely on my own experiences and limited to literally just one (another unfair assumption)
Like I said, I will still take your advice to heart.
I see your point that a GOOD therapist is worth their weight in gold, and I do not argue with that. I shall endeavor to get the therapy I need. It may take some time and a lot of effort finding a way to make the stars align though. Probably.
As for personal relationships, yeah, I'm afraid to put that kind of burden onto a personal relationship. I see it as inevitably ending in disaster and more painful disconnection and sense of damaged trust. I don't want that.
As for me personally though, it probably would be for the best that I do whatever I need to do to get the best therapy possible for me. I understand how important it will be to improve my healing. I just wish there were enough of these kinds of people to go around.
I can't really see it working to get anybody else for help. It's too much to expect of them, and most couldn't anyway, even if they wanted to.
Thanks again for the advice Agua. Now to find out how I can even find a therapist who isn't of little use or worse...