Socialism of 4D, Capitalism, Is Money STS?

[unity100]

Agreed. However, I don't think it is so easily categorized as to whether it is a negative flow.

Scenario A

Mr. X develops an herbal cure for cancer. It costs him pennies to make, but he sells it for millions. From Mr. X's perspective, this is greed. He doesn't care about healing other people. He just wants to exploit their illness. Many people cannot afford his expensive treatment so they die.

Scenario B

Mr. Y develops an herbal cure for cancer. It costs him pennies to make, but he quickly runs out of herbs and needs to purchase more of the plants, in order to make more of the healing formulas. He meets Mr. Z, who has terminal cancer. Mr. Z is willing to pay $1million for a cure. Mr. Y tells Mr. Z that he doesn't have to pay that much, since the formula only cost $5 and a few hours of his time to make. Mr. Y decides to make a little profit, but not anything unreasonable. He charges Mr. Z $1000 for the formula. Mr. Z is healed and very, very happy. Mr. Z only paid $1000 but got his life and health back. He thinks he got a bargain! Meanwhile, Mr. Y invests that $1000 into more plants, and now has enough herbs to make thousands of the formulas. He makes them and sells them for $20 each, saving thousands of lives while being allowed to earn an honest living. Everyone is happy.

Are both of these scenarios negative flow?

yes. it doesnt matter whether the intention of mr Y is great and pure as the blowing winds.

the mechanics of the act there, is negative. he takes more than he gives. even if he made pennies, he received pennies' worth of extra in return.

In Scenario B, since Mr. Z would gladly have paid much, much more than the $1000, he actually got MORE value than what he paid! Same with the later customers who got healed for only $20. Is negative flow based only on the cost of the physical materials? Or is it based on the value the person puts on the exchange? How does one measure something like life and health?

the valuation of goods and services is a different factor here. but there is no need to incorporate it. we are assuming that it is measurable, to make an analysis. the concept is taking more than you give. it may be much cheaper in china, much more expensive in america. but, in the subset you are, if you are taking more than you give, that is a negative flow in the end, regardless of the intent.

it would still make no difference as to Mr Y making pennies' worth more than he gave away as an effort.

This is true. But it's equally true that the invention of cars is a double-edged sword. What is the overall net value of the car? On a positive note, it has made life easier. We can visit friends and relatives who live far away, very quickly. How do we measure the value of that? This is a positive benefit and should be factored into the equation. On a negative note, cars have contributed to people getting more lazy, experiencing more stress, more accidents and fatalities, and of course pollution of the planet. These too must be factored into the equation.

Let's replace the car with the refrigerator. Surely, there are more poitive benefits (food lasting longer, less waste) and fewer negative effects than a car, since refrigerators don't cause accidents or pollute the Earth (or at least not nearly as much as cars do). But the model is the same. Whoever invented the refrigerator surely created an empire and made profit.

My point is that the value of something isn't so easily measured. And a value must be determined, in order to figure out whether the energy flow is negative or positive.

The flow also doesn't happen in an instant. It is set in motion and keeps flowing, for years or even centuries. The big picture must be taken into account. In the end, what is the result? Is the world a better or worse place because of it? This question is not so easily answered. It varies with the item being discussed, even though the mechanism might be the same.

that is similar to saying 'but who emitted the first photon of light ? who was the first positive' and then saying that the energy flows are complicated and if 5% of entities acted negatively, there would be more balance and 50% entities would be able to polarize positively, this and that and its hard to determine and so on.

none of these change the fact that, taking more than you give, will be negative. the results of the action even do not change that fact. even if taking more than you give, saves one's life and leads to that entity going to octave in just 2 days' time, the act of taking more than one gives, will still remain a negative act.

profit, is, a negative concept. doesnt matter it is hard to determine the value of services and goods, or it being complicated and that. if, at the end of day, one is receiving more, its negative.

even if the entity, with that act, causing countless daisies to flower upon the cheeks of billions of kids, the act will still be negative in nature, and will act accordingly. billions of kids' smiles may be offsetting its results. or, may not. that is a separate concept.

this may seem unemotional. it actually IS unemotional. there is no emotion relevant to a mechanic :

light travels in a straight line, and heats up, energizes the surface it falls on.

you may hate it. you may love it. you may want the light not to do so. you may have objections about it. henry ford, may have written a treatise about how light can be used to do this and that. some may worship it.

none of these will change the fact that, light travels in a straight line, and it will heat up the surface it falls on.

that is the wisdom/light side of existence, the mechanics/rules underlying the manifestation in this universe. as long as this ruleset stays, it will keep being as such.

What makes it a negative flow? In the example you gave, what I understood was that it was negative because it was out of balance. The person received more than they gave. But are you taking into consideration the factor of time? At what point is the equation measured? Perhaps the balance might be skewed in one direction initially, but over a period of time, the scale might tip in the other direction.

as said before, in any given timeframe, in any given period, in any given measurement, if one takes more than one gives, it becomes a negative flow.

profit, therefore, becomes as such. it doesnt matter if you divide it into years, to decades. profit means, at the end of measurement period, you took more than you gave, from the other parties.

Have you actually read Ford's book?
How much do you know about him and his business?

In my own personal opinion, this book is one of the greatest devotional books of all time. I believe it is a profound, deeply thought, carefully worded and thoroughly inspiring example of how the individual person can aspire to a greatness of spirit, through serving others in business.

He also discusses how his personal vision of reduced pain in farm life may have saved England in WWI. I did not know either of these aspects of his work with tractors until I read his book. Do you already know all about these things?

first of all, a person or millions of persons' ideas, deeds, opinions, including mine, will not change the fact that some mechanic, is what it is, in a billion years. if you take more than you give, it becomes a negative energy flow. just like the light example above. its a mechanic.

therefore, henry ford is irrelevant to this mechanic.

however, to ease up your mind, i have been educated as an industrial engineer, and have gone through the lives and deeds of many a scientist and industrialist, both due to professional needs and lessons and due to my hobby of history. not to mention that, actually having to learn and pass through many courses that teach many of the practices they have brought.

there has been great kings in the history of the world, who have done great deeds for mankind and helped it. great aristocrats too, actually a lot of early scientists and philosophers, have come out of aristocrat or well to do circles.

however these doesnt change the fact that, aristocracy is an elitist, negative control mechanism, and its core mechanic and nature makes it act as a negative mechanic.

i will address your key points, for ease of your mind, and also to offer important different perspectives :

He discusses product development as a form of service to others, to help lessen the burdens of this imperfect world.
He discusses manufacturing operations as a form of service to others, further lessening burdens of this imperfect world.
He discusses the need for ever lower prices so that service can be provided to more people. He rocked the world with his insistence on this point.
He discusses the transformation of a luxury for the few idle rich, into a huge relief of a painful burden of life for the masses.

yes. just like the 200 year wave of wanderers who incarnated to the planet in order to free the entities from daily life's burdens and to allow them the time to be able to ponder about life and Law of One.

in the end, it turned out so that, the extra time gained has have only enabled the machine to work better, people working harder in more detailed, mentally and emotionally and physically tolling jobs, in order to produce more for the masters they have been working for.

the average individual of 21st century as of now, is much more worn-out, tired, sometimes mentally broken, stressed than an entity of 18th century, due to the increased pace of life.

you now have cars to travel faster. but you use them to travel faster to your job, to work more. moreover, due to that effect being everywhere and the world becoming faster and faster in regard to production and its activities, you work in more stressful, intricate jobs.

whereas, the masters who were at the top before, and in ford's time, earn EVEN more, thanks to those.

nowadays people dont even have the time to visit their relatives anymore. leave that aside, they dont even have the time to properly be with their kids anymore. and thats not even counting the people working for minimum wage in wal mart and alike.

all thanks to the increased pace of life, brought to us by the industrialization and mechanization, WITHOUT changing the core system of elitist, exploitative society.

people are not living in thatched roof huts anymore. however, the 'luxury' of the times, accordingly have become being able to take supper in paris and dinner in new york with a private jet.

so far, in comparison, nothing changed. just, people work even more, and worn, torn out even more, and we have much more diseases and conditions stemming from these. compared to the problems we have today, the days of 18th century, in regard to health-wise, seems even more sane.

He discusses retail distribution, sales, and service as a form of service to others, with the same purposes.
He discusses financial management as a form of service to others. He is quite outspoken and direct about what is right and wrong for investors to expect or claim from a business.
He discusses the need for ever higher wages so that service can be provided to more people. He rocked the world here as well.

yes, better financial management as a form of 'service to others', so that the mechanism will work even better, and the exploited masses working for a minority group will be working more efficiently.

increased wages, so that the masses will spend more, there will be more economic activity, and more goods and services will be traded. which, will in the end end up going to a minority's pocket. actually, even this didnt come into being at any given point.

Of course he made mistakes. Of course he had to learn from others. The moving assembly line came from suggestions of others in his company. His excessive opposition to unions only broke because of what his wife said to him. The important thing here is that he did seriously consider what other people had to say, and at times modified his point of view as he learned new perspectives.

If you're just going to dismiss all of this, we can't have much of a productive conversation.

you are trying to exonerate an entire SYSTEM, over a single entity's deeds and opinions.

with your approach, i can take any enlightened despot from 18th century, and make a treatise for absolute monarchy over them.

The key point is the definition of value. I suppose it might be a tenet from Marx and Engels that the value of a good cannot possibly exceed its immediate manufacturing cost. I do not believe Marx and Engels were divinely inspired, infallible, or consistently seeking to be of service to others. I do believe they are less reliable guides to a life of productive service than Ford.

Your claim that profit and wages are inherent forms of slavery are specifically addressed and debunked by Ford's book, and more importantly, by his life's work. I feel that I am inviting you to a dialog, and you're continuing to repeat secondhand opinions of others about what profit, wages, work, and business can really mean in this imperfect world.

I believe that if more businesses were run according to Ford's principles, there would be less minority enslavement possible.

What other people did with Ford's company after his death has nothing to do with the power of his own ideas. Nor do the mistakes of other people, after he died, take away from what I see as a tremendous loving heart of service behind those ideas.

its not about definition of value. its not about what ford, in his mind, debunks, or, what did those came after him do.

its about CORE systems.

no kind of argumentation, opinion, life stories, deeds, approaches will change the nature of something. things, are what they are, mechanically. and, REGARDLESS of what you build on top of them, with what sentiments you approach them, they keep their character.

this, is the reason why the intended mission of the 200 year wanderer wave, did not reach its goal.

they have come and invented a lot of things, made the life much more easier. BUT, because the system was negative, all they have accomplished in the end, ended up being speeding up life, and causing more activity to be made, with RATIOS unchanged.

there are still masters on top, getting most of the value produced. everyone, in wide, works for them. a good example is how 1% top of society gets 52% of wealth. and top 6% ends up getting 72%, with that 1% included.

and, the bottom 80%, gets 15% only.

so, out of 100 value generated, the 80% of society only gets 15.

it doesnt matter whether you bring cars that travel at the speed of light into this mix. mechanic will keep working the same.

the entities were supposed to have time to think about Law of One consciously, yet, not only they dont even have any time fighting for their survival now, but they also have a lot of issues, conditions, diseases, situations to fight against.

in short, what these wanderers did, had only upped the pyramid, and the pyramid of negative hierarchy in this society is now just residing in a higher place, without its geometry being changed, leave aside, its nature.

even the ideological ideals of the 18th century, regarding freedoms and liberties, have become irrelevant, due to the need of having financial power to actually enjoy them. if you dont have the money and time to do anything, you basically cant do it anything. there being a 'freedom' to do things, in THEORY, does not make it a reality.

our system is ideologically positive, but, practically, economically, negative. a travesty.

and same goes with each and every one of us. as long as we dont change the inherent mechanic of this system, regardless of what we do, it will keep acting as it is, and will eventually turn EVERYthing we do, will be shaped by the underlying mechanic of the system, to fit itself.