Since Ricdaw's quote was actually a question asked to me I'll simply say he has answered exactly my thoughts in a way I would not have succeeded to explain properly. What I give up is exactly that which he has explained.
Why do men have a problem with this analogy? Probably because the male energy is the exploration of the conscious. If there is one lesson the experience of the conscious has to offer is that one can reach it's great way when one surrenders consciously(active), not unconsciously(passive) to it's intuition. Courting is an unconscious behavior relating to one's own need and desires. You said courting is not done out of need but I think you seperate what one needs and what one wants too easily. I think you applied the active/passive duality to the wrong part of the process. I think when one wants to court everybody, it is because one needs a positive reflection back to them. In short, if you actively seek to please everyone, you actually want to be pleased by their reflection. And this is something that can shadow the truth at a certain point.
The visual aspect of the card is clear to me. This was never a debate plundering vs courting. It is about knowing deep inside that they are both not the great way, there is a greater one. That's why the male closes his eyes to follow actively it's intuition rather than seeking it outward(passively) as ricdaw described. The choice of the two females is a passive distraction of what is actively going on inside.
If I follow your logic, you are telling me that the way you resonated with this analogy implies that you used to consider the ressources of your deep mind and others as prostitutes that were yours to plunder as you like? And that you came to transform by giving up that idea to find a desire to court others into your service just like it is for the unconscious mind? I personally don't think I have ever considered my intuition as something to be plundered. I also don't think categorizing the deep mind as a single duality will get one really far into understanding it. There is much more to it. Just like I wouldn't feel plundered by everyone that do not court me. Would you?
I asked you if courting was the greatest expression of your love and you said that it was and that you didn't know any other way. That to me is where we cannot relate to each other. I know and feel a greater love that doesn't go through courting. But it can only be learned through surrendering to the experience of separation. Experiences that I think happen when you surrender and have no expectations of positive/negative. Courting is an intention of projecting a positive outcome, like covering with a white blanket of love on every new thing that you meet. It is a positive intention, but it is not done in understanding, it is a mindless one. The best analogy I could do to explain this is the sun. The sun is a positive radiating entity that shines unconditonally. But do you think the way the sun loves you means the sun understands you?
When one releases any projection towards a desired outcome, experiences happen in different forms and are to be undertood as they truly are. That means seeing them as the ultimate complexity they bring to this universe and not as a simplistic concept, because at the source of things, the universe is ever complexifying not simplifying, and things should be loved for that, not for being the most simplistic versions of themselves. Seperation is to be understood and loved as separation not only as unity because it is the desire of separation that drives the foundation of this experience. I think that's what we're here for, loving in a way that the sun cannot do or provide. If one loves others like the sun loves everyone, one is actually not loving at the full capacity that it's m/b/s allows him/her to. Loving everything as unity in a seperate environnement is dismissing the actual gift that is provided by this experience. This means that when falling in love makes you want to take the burdens out of your loved ones it is good to know that there is much greater love to be found in catalyst than simply get off the weight on their shoulders if you also love what they live, fight and die for. If you truly love them, you would honor their reasons for being distorted and being alive. Ra imply in different ways that the real love has nothing to do with the kind of love we describe here on earth when thinking of mating relationship. And it seems especially important that I insert that here because seeing how you describe each archetype, especially the fool, I feel that you have a bias towards seeing each archetype through the lens of mating relationships. No offense meant by that. Not that there is something wrong with that or that the analogies coming out of this reflection are wrong but they do not cover the range they are intended to cover. The archetypes are a template of consciousness that goes well beyond 3D. I would ask then this: do you study the archetypes in hopes of better understanding others or do you study them to understand yourself? If the study is not done in a way that seeks to apply their concepts to everything that is part of this experience, tell me how is it useful?
I would not be able to apply the courting analogy to me just as I would not be able to apply it to a lot of people I know. Maybe you can relate your self to it. If mating relationship is a big part of your experiences as a self than it would make perfect sense that you resonate with the analogy in terms of experience. But if you want to be able to apply it to others, there needs to be some letting go of seeing it through your own experiences and instead you should explore them as experiences that are not your own. How would you expect someone who cannot even court to go through the transformation of the mind? Do you think this transformation of the mind to be only accessible to those whose courting abilities are strong enough?
I think the big differences between the different analogies that have been brought up in the thread is that some have been specifically crafted to work with a desired outcome that courting is a working analogy. The opposites were simply a meant to show that it is possible to bring forth many anomalies where it is impossible to apply the concept as broadly as intended at first. It is possible to discuss endless different scenarios where one will act accordingly to his/her heart or his/her mind, but the idea is simply that if it is not possible to apply the concept as a whole, we are no longer discussing how to build a well working representation of the archetype. It is not about trying to make it work or not work. It's about what would be the best way to simplify this concept for someone with no experience of the tarot. How would you explain that to your grandmother who doesn't do a lot of courting anymore or to someone whose culture forces marriages and involves no courting between the two partners?
An other thing I'd want to cover is what you said about advertisement and pornography. I think there is something much more effective and powerful at doing exactly what you describe and it is much more accessible and powerful. That is facebook. I think the difference between the two is that in the case of pornography, I think most users are well aware that they are simply fantasizing and I seriously doubt that most people would want that to actually mannifest. I know some do but there are extremes to every possible scenarios. It is possible that it distorts people's view of sexuality but sexuality is only happening with one other person or one other person at a time relatively speaking unless one regularly participates in orgies. On the other hand facebook is distorting every real relationships with real people they know in real life. Facebook bring out and entertain the worst of humanity's reflection. It seems normal to me it just happens to distort people's self worth and mating process.
Why do men have a problem with this analogy? Probably because the male energy is the exploration of the conscious. If there is one lesson the experience of the conscious has to offer is that one can reach it's great way when one surrenders consciously(active), not unconsciously(passive) to it's intuition. Courting is an unconscious behavior relating to one's own need and desires. You said courting is not done out of need but I think you seperate what one needs and what one wants too easily. I think you applied the active/passive duality to the wrong part of the process. I think when one wants to court everybody, it is because one needs a positive reflection back to them. In short, if you actively seek to please everyone, you actually want to be pleased by their reflection. And this is something that can shadow the truth at a certain point.
The visual aspect of the card is clear to me. This was never a debate plundering vs courting. It is about knowing deep inside that they are both not the great way, there is a greater one. That's why the male closes his eyes to follow actively it's intuition rather than seeking it outward(passively) as ricdaw described. The choice of the two females is a passive distraction of what is actively going on inside.
If I follow your logic, you are telling me that the way you resonated with this analogy implies that you used to consider the ressources of your deep mind and others as prostitutes that were yours to plunder as you like? And that you came to transform by giving up that idea to find a desire to court others into your service just like it is for the unconscious mind? I personally don't think I have ever considered my intuition as something to be plundered. I also don't think categorizing the deep mind as a single duality will get one really far into understanding it. There is much more to it. Just like I wouldn't feel plundered by everyone that do not court me. Would you?
I asked you if courting was the greatest expression of your love and you said that it was and that you didn't know any other way. That to me is where we cannot relate to each other. I know and feel a greater love that doesn't go through courting. But it can only be learned through surrendering to the experience of separation. Experiences that I think happen when you surrender and have no expectations of positive/negative. Courting is an intention of projecting a positive outcome, like covering with a white blanket of love on every new thing that you meet. It is a positive intention, but it is not done in understanding, it is a mindless one. The best analogy I could do to explain this is the sun. The sun is a positive radiating entity that shines unconditonally. But do you think the way the sun loves you means the sun understands you?
When one releases any projection towards a desired outcome, experiences happen in different forms and are to be undertood as they truly are. That means seeing them as the ultimate complexity they bring to this universe and not as a simplistic concept, because at the source of things, the universe is ever complexifying not simplifying, and things should be loved for that, not for being the most simplistic versions of themselves. Seperation is to be understood and loved as separation not only as unity because it is the desire of separation that drives the foundation of this experience. I think that's what we're here for, loving in a way that the sun cannot do or provide. If one loves others like the sun loves everyone, one is actually not loving at the full capacity that it's m/b/s allows him/her to. Loving everything as unity in a seperate environnement is dismissing the actual gift that is provided by this experience. This means that when falling in love makes you want to take the burdens out of your loved ones it is good to know that there is much greater love to be found in catalyst than simply get off the weight on their shoulders if you also love what they live, fight and die for. If you truly love them, you would honor their reasons for being distorted and being alive. Ra imply in different ways that the real love has nothing to do with the kind of love we describe here on earth when thinking of mating relationship. And it seems especially important that I insert that here because seeing how you describe each archetype, especially the fool, I feel that you have a bias towards seeing each archetype through the lens of mating relationships. No offense meant by that. Not that there is something wrong with that or that the analogies coming out of this reflection are wrong but they do not cover the range they are intended to cover. The archetypes are a template of consciousness that goes well beyond 3D. I would ask then this: do you study the archetypes in hopes of better understanding others or do you study them to understand yourself? If the study is not done in a way that seeks to apply their concepts to everything that is part of this experience, tell me how is it useful?
I would not be able to apply the courting analogy to me just as I would not be able to apply it to a lot of people I know. Maybe you can relate your self to it. If mating relationship is a big part of your experiences as a self than it would make perfect sense that you resonate with the analogy in terms of experience. But if you want to be able to apply it to others, there needs to be some letting go of seeing it through your own experiences and instead you should explore them as experiences that are not your own. How would you expect someone who cannot even court to go through the transformation of the mind? Do you think this transformation of the mind to be only accessible to those whose courting abilities are strong enough?
I think the big differences between the different analogies that have been brought up in the thread is that some have been specifically crafted to work with a desired outcome that courting is a working analogy. The opposites were simply a meant to show that it is possible to bring forth many anomalies where it is impossible to apply the concept as broadly as intended at first. It is possible to discuss endless different scenarios where one will act accordingly to his/her heart or his/her mind, but the idea is simply that if it is not possible to apply the concept as a whole, we are no longer discussing how to build a well working representation of the archetype. It is not about trying to make it work or not work. It's about what would be the best way to simplify this concept for someone with no experience of the tarot. How would you explain that to your grandmother who doesn't do a lot of courting anymore or to someone whose culture forces marriages and involves no courting between the two partners?
An other thing I'd want to cover is what you said about advertisement and pornography. I think there is something much more effective and powerful at doing exactly what you describe and it is much more accessible and powerful. That is facebook. I think the difference between the two is that in the case of pornography, I think most users are well aware that they are simply fantasizing and I seriously doubt that most people would want that to actually mannifest. I know some do but there are extremes to every possible scenarios. It is possible that it distorts people's view of sexuality but sexuality is only happening with one other person or one other person at a time relatively speaking unless one regularly participates in orgies. On the other hand facebook is distorting every real relationships with real people they know in real life. Facebook bring out and entertain the worst of humanity's reflection. It seems normal to me it just happens to distort people's self worth and mating process.