Why I am not a vegan

[Monica]

Hi Diana, yes. We can exam within ourselves , where are the roots of violence and oppression. I think violence and oppression are rooted in our disconnection from Source, each other , and all life.

So we can examine what will connect us or disconnect us to/ from our other-selves.

Whatever causes duality, ie. us/them perspective, I feel is a source of disconnection. So how can we foster oneness, connection and community?

We can start by not ignoring the cries for help...the frantic, desperate call for compassion, by our younger other-selves.

Yes that is a good point, striving to do the least harm. Once we have reached a level of awareness, perhaps by seeing that the violent food system we have is not 4D compatible, we can strive to manifest changes that will lead us there. You seem to be saying being a vegetarian is the only choice or first step available, however that is not true and also it is not fostering community and wholeness, but in my opinion it is contributing to a consciousness of duality, ie. us/them.

Depends on who 'them' is. If by 'them' you mean those who choose to oppress other-selves by contributing to their torture and slaughter, then I contend it is they who are separating themselves, NOT us for pointing it out.

Whereas, 'them' could also refer to the 150+ Billion sentient being oppressed, often tortured, and always killed, every single year...we are definitely contributing to Oneness with them by no longer contributing to that.

Given the choice, I choose Oneness with the innocents. Those who knowingly contribute to the victimization of innocents are separating themselves.

That being said, I agree that you are absolutely right as far as the torturous and horrid, inhumane , evil, ungodly system of farming animals that we have on this planet.

Glad we agree on that!

Those who disagree have the choice to disagree. But we cannot be blamed for causing separation, just for refusing to pretend that what they're doing is ok. Pretending that oppression and unnecessary killing is ok isn't 'community and wholeness.'

Oppression and unnecessary killing aren't 'community and wholeness.'

Why would we want 'community and wholeness' with oppression and violence?

Are we supposed to pretend that oppression and violence are ok, just because it's being done by humans? Isn't that speciesism?

Must we 'seek community and wholeness' with other humans regardless of what they do, just because they are human? Does 'community and wholeness' refer only to other humans? Is it ok to separate ourselves from sentient non-human beings, just because they aren't human?

Is not killing another being the ultimate act of separation?

Therefore, isn't eating animals causing separation?

I seek 'community and wholeness' with the whole planet, including the innocent, sentient beings who are being victimized.

The victimizers are the ones 'contributing to a consciousness of duality, ie. us/them' not those seeking to free the victims.

However,I am saying that the root of the system is profit.(which you did not comment on in my post) The system is there to make money and profit, to extract energy from others(including animals) rather than to nurture and sustain.

Absolutely. But it's more than that. The STS entities feed on fear. 150 BILLION animals living in a state of constant fear and pain...that's a lot of food for those STS entities.

No wonder this planet is so f***** up.

How can we hope to raise the vibration of this planet while allowing this atrocity to continue?

So if we buy into the for profit system in any way, then we are supporting the System. In truth there is no us/ them, we are in it together and we collectively support a System that enslaves and oppresses.

The only way to change the collective is to start with ourselves.

That is certainly true. But also the changes that manifest come from within, if it is a true change. A true change is pure, flows freely, is natural and not forced, and certainly not forced by others. So it will manifest as the changes occur within.

True. But there's that 'force' word again. No one is 'forcing' anyone to do anything. Anyone reading this discussion does so of their own free will.

The cereals and grains that are fed to animals are much more likely to have automated, machine harvesting rather than humans.

Humans harvest the fruits and vegetables that humans eat. I don't think you would suggest stopping eating fruits and vegetables because of the rampant injustice that occurs with migrant farmworkers. We have to eat!

I think the logical first step is local farms and farm markets after the necessary changes are made in our awareness and consciousness.

I'd say that's a good 3rd step. The first step is to quit eating meat. The 2nd step is to quit eating commercial eggs and dairy. The 3rd step is to buy local, organic produce.

Someone who is vegan might look with contempt on me because I raise chickens and eat their eggs. But is that a consciously aware judgment? Probably not, imo. To me it is a very life-affirming, conscious choice. A way to remove myself from the horrors of the system. A way to help others be more aware and get my family involved. It's been good for us.

True, many vegans would, because it's a religion to them, black-and-white. No animal products, ever ever ever. Some of the discussions on the vegan forums are rather silly, in my opinion. As with any ideology, some lose sight of the goal in their effort to adhere to the dogma.

The eating meat part is black-and-white. There is no reason to ever eat meat. As has been discussed ad nauseum, there are always non-meat solutions to health problems. The human body simply doesn't need meat.

Commercially-produced eggs and dairy are also off the table. They are every bit as cruel as the meat.

Beyond that, there is a bit of wiggle-room, in my opinion. Many other vegans would disagree with me, but here's why I think that:

My dad raised chickens and they had a large yard to roam freely in. They pecked and scratched in the dirt. They had good lives, up until he killed them. But they laid eggs whether there was a rooster in the yard or not.

I think it's perfectly fine to eat the eggs from chickens raised thusly.

I don't think it's fine to kill the chickens and eat them though. But the eggs are going to get laid anyway, so why not eat them if you wish?

Totally different from buying store-bought eggs from chickens who were literally tortured every day of their miserable lives.

However, here's the problem: What happens to the chickens after their egg-laying days are over? My vegan friends would now point out that the chickens will likely get sold for slaughter. How many backyard chicken breeders let their chickens live full, natural lives and die of natural causes? Or are those 'happy, free-ranging' chickens sold for meat?

Further, what happens to the roosters?

It's the same with goats being raised for their milk, in a pasture with a good life. I don't think there's anything wrong with using some of the excess milk, provided the baby goats have had their fill. But...what happens to the goats after their milking days are over?

(Cow's milk is so bad for health I don't see any reason to ever even go there.)

I think that means, getting out of duality, realizing we are in this together, and make life-affirming choices which are probably different for different people. A farmer who raises chickens on a small scale, organic free range, who does it compassionately to support his family has a honorable profession if you ask me.

On the other hand, a for profit company who imports quinoa to make profit for stockholders, I am not so sure those actions are as evolved toward 4D as the above named farmer. If I were making an aware and conscious choice, I personally would choose buying eggs from the farmer, rather than the quinoa.

I see your point, but I don't think it's quite that simple. Many other subtleties come into play.

At any rate, I personally do support farmers like you. I buy such eggs to feed my doggies. I haven't yet made the leap to totally vegan dog food. Mostly vegetarian with some eggs from the farmer's market is a good transitional food for them, at this point. But I suspect that those chickens are being slaughtered, so I don't feel comfortable with it. But then, I'm still buying meat-based kibble for my cats (from still-offensive but less offensive sources). I'm seriously looking into switching them all over to vegan, but I'm not totally comfortable with that either. It's a problem, and I don't know the solution to that. Right now I'm learning as much as I can from other vegans who claim to be raising healthy dogs and even cats, on a vegan diet. They are the pioneers and I confess I want to see how it's working out for them before I volunteer my own babies in this experiment.

I am 100% certain that human children can thrive on a vegan diet. I'm not quite there yet when it comes to these obviously carnivorous animals. I see evidence of dogs and cats losing their prey instinct, so I'm optimistic that by the time humans all quit eating meat, this problem will work itself out. In the meantime, I'd rather support farmers like you for dog and cat food.

(Please see the early part of this thread for more on what to do about dogs and cats.)

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And if you were talking about animals vs. vegetables, well, this one just doesn't fly for me. The day that you can pluck a ripe drumstick off of a chicken, which doesn't hinder the chicken in any way and in fact 2 legs grow back in its place and it continues to be a happy healthy chicken, while at the same time you are helping it propagate, that's the day that we can talk about how animals are as legitimate of a food source as plants.

WOW you nailed it! I will be quoting you!