Abrupt vs gradual harvest

[Parsons]

Well, here's the concept I had of there being a shift THEN there being a time period of waning 3D light AFTER the shift. This is how I saw the Ra Material from the beginning.

It is normal, at a time of shift, for there to be as much as a thousand years after the shift while third density clears the planet of all energies that have been unfriendly or inhospitable. Unfortunately for planet Earth, the entities upon your planet have not come to the end of third density ready to embrace love, peace, freedom and justice. They do not see the beauty of harmony.

It also brings up an interesting thought for me: What if the shift to 4D occurred in 1998 and I just wasn't ready to get off the metaphorical subway car. What if these dates of 1998 and Dec 21st 2012 are just points at which the subway car stops to allow traffic off the cars. What if this subway simply keeps on going until everyone is ready to leave the subway car?

[zenmaster]

What if this subway simply keeps on going until everyone is ready to leave the subway car?

Doesn't work that way. Even though the planet is not fully active and won't be for some long time, green-ray energies are becoming more and more prevalent. The effect of green-ray is a significantly lessened compelling illusion. That illusion, however, is not only useful, but necessary for experiencing 3D catalyst. The illusion becomes more and more transparent, meaning one still needing to balance 3D lessons will have greater and greater difficulty in doing so. When those still requiring 3D lessons die, they will know that this particular place is not an appropriate place to learn. Still wanting to progress, they will go to one of the closest planets for further incarnational needs. The "harvest" is the time (now), after death, where that choice for further progress is made.

[Parsons]

Concerning the basic setup of the transition, there is a moment of transition in terms of the planet itself. That moment of transition is at some point near to the winter solstice of 2012. It is fairly set—cut and dried, as this instrument would say.

For the human tribe that inhabits the surface of Planet Earth, things are not so cut and dried. The time of choice is greatly limited now among your peoples. This is not a cause for great concern for most of those, if not all of those, who shall make that choice for graduation have already made the initial choice of service to others. There is still time to make that initial choice, but you may do the calculation necessary to see that the time is short. [The year] 2012 is within [the] lifetime [of] each of those to whom we are speaking. This is something that you may choose and you may do completely and well in the next few years.

So the time of choice of polarity is limited between now and after the full transition at the winter solstice.

[zenmaster]

Concerning the basic setup of the transition, there is a moment of transition in terms of the planet itself. That moment of transition is at some point near to the winter solstice of 2012. It is fairly set—cut and dried, as this instrument would say.

For the human tribe that inhabits the surface of Planet Earth, things are not so cut and dried. The time of choice is greatly limited now among your peoples. This is not a cause for great concern for most of those, if not all of those, who shall make that choice for graduation have already made the initial choice of service to others. There is still time to make that initial choice, but you may do the calculation necessary to see that the time is short. [The year] 2012 is within [the] lifetime [of] each of those to whom we are speaking. This is something that you may choose and you may do completely and well in the next few years.

So the time of choice of polarity is limited between now and after the full transition at the winter solstice.

And "some point near" is conveniently vague enough to provide perhaps years more time for choosing. I actually believe we should generally be able to determine the basic point though where certain polarizing catalyst is no longer available. I also believe we have perhaps another generation of time for choosing.

[Parsons]

Not really. The next paragraph reads:

For most of you, indeed, as we said, the choice has been made. You have decided to be of service to others. Let these next few years that remain before 2012 be a testament to your stability, your spiritual maturity, and your ability to persevere. Bloody mindedness and sheer guts is sometimes part of what it takes to make the choice of love.

This specifies the time between when the channeling took place and 2012 as a timeframe for the choice of 3D to be made.

It's cool if you have absolutely no intention of ever being swayed by selected Q'uo'tes in your opinion of harvest or if you think there is a 100% chance there will be no abrupt changes. But you seem to be stretching things pretty far with your rebuttal of any quotes that hold an abrupt view nearly to the point of playing devil's advocate.:-/

[zenmaster]

Not really. The next paragraph reads:

For most of you, indeed, as we said, the choice has been made. You have decided to be of service to others. Let these next few years that remain before 2012 be a testament to your stability, your spiritual maturity, and your ability to persevere. Bloody mindedness and sheer guts is sometimes part of what it takes to make the choice of love.

This specifies the time between when the channeling took place and 2012 as a timeframe for the choice of 3D to be made.

It's cool if you have absolutely no intention of ever being swayed by selected Q'uo'tes in your opinion of harvest or if you think there is a 100% chance there will be no abrupt changes. But you seem to be stretching things pretty far with your rebuttal of any quotes that hold an abrupt view nearly to the point of playing devil's advocate.:-/

Parsons, there are contradictory quotes. Do you understand?

---

Consequently, I personally don't take much stock in what Carla (transpersonally) says regarding harvest mechanisms, much of that is due to it being severely indulgent. Still, it is very interesting and of a 'higher vibration' than a lot of information even if it does tend to get rather wordy and superfluous.

[AnthroHeart]

I wonder about this stability, spiritual maturity they are talking about. I had a mental break before because of too much psychic overload, and had to check into a mental facility, and now am on meds to help control it. Is this taking the easy road because now I don't experience them? I am able to focus on life now, while I still do occasionally have an experience.

I just hope I'm not short changing myself by taking the psych meds. Then again, they could be part of my experiencing here in 3D.

Not really. The next paragraph reads:

For most of you, indeed, as we said, the choice has been made. You have decided to be of service to others. Let these next few years that remain before 2012 be a testament to your stability, your spiritual maturity, and your ability to persevere. Bloody mindedness and sheer guts is sometimes part of what it takes to make the choice of love.

This specifies the time between when the channeling took place and 2012 as a timeframe for the choice of 3D to be made.

It's cool if you have absolutely no intention of ever being swayed by selected Q'uo'tes in your opinion of harvest or if you think there is a 100% chance there will be no abrupt changes. But you seem to be stretching things pretty far with your rebuttal of any quotes that hold an abrupt view nearly to the point of playing devil's advocate.:-/

[Patrick]

...
Parsons, there are contradictory quotes. Do you understand?
...

Indeed. Otherwise we could not choose what to believe. The law of confusion at work.

[Parsons]

Yet Q'uo can answer questions such as "Am I a wanderer?" and other questions that are confirmations as opposed to something that is a part of a person's active process. I have seen Q'uo call on the law of confusion when asked this question and on the other hand clearly answer this question in other instances, depending on the person's confidence level in their own personal findings.

Now applying this same understanding of how the law of confusion works, is it not possible that for those are completely ready to graduate will graduate on or around the solstice while the ones who are vehemently holding on to 3D until their natural physical deaths will get their wish as well?

So why can we not 'have our cake and eat it too' knowing what we know about the nature of the cosmos?

I only bring this up so specifically because I am perceiving a 'wet blanket effect' for those who are ready to graduate now, while conversely those who seem to be not quite fully ready yet seem to be reacting as though they were being rushed(which I know can be equally as annoying as to when you feel you are being held back). If someone came to the strong conclusion one way or the other on the matter, they should have already considered both sides of the argument thoroughly.

So why are we directly trying to convince each other if everyone has done their homework on the matter and feel strongly about their conclusions?

Reviewing my post that re-opened this thread, I remember I was frustrated about what I perceive as the one-sided view of this being perpetuated constantly in this forum while my point of view seemed to be barely represented at all. This resulted in me directly challenging the gradualistic viewpoint instead of simply presenting the Q'uo'te I came across (which had never been quoted here to the best of my knowledge/forums search). I apologize for trying to invalidate that viewpoint as am I now essentially attempting to discourage this same behavior from either viewpoint.

Along the same lines, I would like to remind everyone that I believe it is infringement to try to influence new-comers to the forums one way or the other on this matter. If newcomers have questions about this, we should simply point them towards threads that have already thoroughly discussed this issue which have equal helpings of quotes that support 'gradualism' and 'abruptism'.

[Patrick]

I wish it would be abrupt while believing it is gradual.

...
is it not possible that for those are completely ready to graduate will graduate on or around the solstice while the ones who are vehemently holding on to 3D until their natural physical deaths will get their wish as well?

So why can we not 'have our cake and eat it too' knowing what we know about the nature of the cosmos?
...

Don't you think that a large number of people all dropping dead at the same time would not force the hand of those holding on to 3D and force them to believe in the paranormal having received proof?

[AnthroHeart]

If large numbers dropped dead, would those be 4D harvestables that are graduating, or 3D repeaters? I assume by your context you refer to harvestables.

[Patrick]

If large numbers dropped dead, would those be 4D harvestables that are graduating, or 3D repeaters? I assume by your context you refer to harvestables.

Harvestables yes. I guess a reality split could occur though. Which like Parsons said would equate to having our cake and eat it too.

The good news is that it won't be much longer before we find out.

[zenmaster]

Yet Q'uo can answer questions such as "Am I a wanderer?" and other questions that are confirmations as opposed to something that is a part of a person's active process. I have seen Q'uo call on the law of confusion when asked this question and on the other hand clearly answer this question in other instances, depending on the person's confidence level in their own personal findings.

Now applying this same understanding of how the law of confusion works, is it not possible that for those are completely ready to graduate will graduate on or around the solstice while the ones who are vehemently holding on to 3D until their natural physical deaths will get their wish as well?

What wish would that be?

Along the same lines, I would like to remind everyone that I believe it is infringement to try to influence new-comers to the forums one way or the other on this matter. If newcomers have questions about this, we should simply point them towards threads that have already thoroughly discussed this issue which have equal helpings of quotes that support 'gradualism' and 'abruptism'.

It's not an infringement, but teach/learning at work to express how we honestly interpret the material. Who is really "trying to influence newcomers"? I agree about the value of pointing to prior threads discussing the subject though.

[Parsons]

If large numbers dropped dead, would those be 4D harvestables that are graduating, or 3D repeaters? I assume by your context you refer to harvestables.

Harvestables yes. I guess a reality split could occur though. Which like Parsons said would equate to having our cake and eat it too.

The good news is that it won't be much longer before we find out.

Well, according to Q'uo, the indigo children-type wanderer are comprised mostly of wanderers who have already graduated earth to 4D positive. Considering the previous 25k year harvests were only a few hundred entities, a great many people must have graduated already since then considering there are way more than a couple hundred indigo children incanate back here in 3D. This implies a harvest cycle may have happened between now and when the harvest started.

Why not 1998? If memory serves from my Q'uo channelings that was the year slate a shift happen, so what if we were moved on to the time lateral then? Q'uo has openly stated we have been on a "grace" period alone.

Well I don't remember a bunch of seemingly random people drop dead that year. I don't necessarily think that will be the case either this December.

[Patrick]

...
Well I don't remember a bunch of seemingly random people drop dead that year. I don't necessarily think that will be the case either this December.

Then what exactly do you mean by abrupt ?

[zenmaster]

Well, according to Q'uo, the indigo children-type wanderer are comprised mostly of wanderers who have already graduated earth to 4D positive.

Which conflicts with Ra who said they had graduated from other 3D worlds 4D positive.

[Patrick]

Well, according to Q'uo, the indigo children-type wanderer are comprised mostly of wanderers who have already graduated earth to 4D positive.

Which conflicts with Ra who said they had graduated from other 3D worlds 4D positive.

Yes they are mostly newly graduated 4d (but not just Earth) and their home planet was not going to be 4d positive. So they come here.

[zenmaster]

Well, according to Q'uo, the indigo children-type wanderer are comprised mostly of wanderers who have already graduated earth to 4D positive.

Which conflicts with Ra who said they had graduated from other 3D worlds 4D positive.

Yes they are mostly newly graduated 4d (but not just Earth) and their home planet was not going to be 4d positive. So they come here.

Or perhaps it was going to be 4D positive but not for many years to come. I.e. middle of 3d major cycle.

[AnthroHeart]

The green ray energies and harvest time are determined by our location in the galaxy, correct? I vaguely remember reading that in the Ra material. Our planet is sweeping through a more energetic place in the galaxy. This is what Ra mentions as it being like a clock striking the hour. I see our planet on the face of a clock.

This means that other planets are not sweeping the same area of the sky as we are, so go through different densities.

But then again, Venus is in 5th and I believe some 6th density, and it's not that far away from us. So I'm not sure if location in galaxy has something to do with harvest and density of the planet.

[zenmaster]

Apparenty, 3d cycle start may require tending from higher densities. Location matters at least with respect to the spiraling motion which exposes the planet to energies. There is also the planet's natural internal cycle which provides for life at some point.

[hogey11]

I still think that gradually can happen abruptly. Here's my question to anyone: Will the Orion entities have the same control and effect on our planet for all time forward as they do now? When the earth moves to 4D, do the rules change regarding influence? I think something that is ignored and I believe is also at the heart of the harvest discussion is the fact that there is an obvious push in our cultural world to push people away from the right answers on a spiritual and ethical level. The fact that the Vatican is the global face of Christianity says enough. We see the influence of the STS side, which is required for 3D catalyst. However, we also know that it will be the absence of that influence will be a hallmark of a new 4D planet. How gradually would things move if all the barriers were removed and we started supporting communities living in positive ways? How long would it really take us if we were actually aiming to do the right thing?

[Etude in B Minor]

Will the Orion entities have the same control and effect on our planet for all time forward as they do now? When the earth moves to 4D, do the rules change regarding influence?

No, I don't think so. Earth will become 4D positive where negative energies are not possible.

[zenmaster]

How gradually would things move if all the barriers were removed and we started supporting communities living in positive ways?

Who determines what is positive and thus what should be supported?

How long would it really take us if we were actually aiming to do the right thing?

What, we're not already aiming to do the right thing? What's positive or service to others for one person or group may not be for another you see.

[Parsons]

How gradually would things move if all the barriers were removed and we started supporting communities living in positive ways?

Who determines what is positive and thus what should be supported?

Why is is difficult to determine what is service to others, is it not extremely obvious? You are adding another layer of 3D-ness that will no longer be necessary in anything new.

[Patrick]

Parsons, I think you'll like this channeling: http://johnsmallman.wordpress.com/2012/0...e-waiting/

It's a lovely message.

[AnthroHeart]

How gradually would things move if all the barriers were removed and we started supporting communities living in positive ways?

Who determines what is positive and thus what should be supported?

Why is is difficult to determine what is service to others, is it not extremely obvious? You are adding another layer of 3D-ness that will no longer be necessary in anything new.

So in 4D, everything will be simple?

[Siren]

I still think that gradually can happen abruptly.

Indeed, the harvest is both gradual and abrupt. Gradual in the sense that the full transition will occur over a period of time rather than on one specific day at one specific hour. Abrupt in the sense that when contemplating this planet's total 3rd density's duration (which is roughly 75,000 years), a, say, 100 year harvest/transition would seem almost instantaneous in contrast.

Here's my question to anyone: Will the Orion entities have the same control and effect on our planet for all time forward as they do now?

Not if a planet becomes a 4th density positive society.

When the earth moves to 4D, do the rules change regarding influence?

Rules do not change. There are no rules. Awareness changes, and as it does, so do the "rules" of the game, if you like. The environment, setting and ambiance of 4th density will be vastly different than that of 3D. The interactions between positive and negative 4D societies is not the same as the interaction between 4D and 3D entities as it is experienced now (similar as to how the interactions between 3D denizens differs from that between 3D humans and 2D canines).

I think something that is ignored and I believe is also at the heart of the harvest discussion is the fact that there is an obvious push in our cultural world to push people away from the right answers on a spiritual and ethical level. The fact that the Vatican is the global face of Christianity says enough.

There are influences on this planet (as well as off it) who would like to avert, or rather, at this point, retard and diminish as much as possible what will be the positive harvest.

How gradually would things move if all the barriers were removed and we started supporting communities living in positive ways? How long would it really take us if we were actually aiming to do the right thing?

You do realize than when you refer to "us" you are also including those who seek in a different direction than yours, don't you? Therefore, the "right" thing for you may not be the "right" thing for them.

However, the time it will take to adjust, align and tune in to the 4th density vibratory patterns as a planetary collective will largely depend on how rapidly the awareness of the people changes, adapts, and molds into it. Resistance and/or unwillingness will be—or rather, is—the great detractor and procrastinator in this transition.

---

The green ray energies and harvest time are determined by our location in the galaxy, correct? I vaguely remember reading that in the Ra material. Our planet is sweeping through a more energetic place in the galaxy. This is what Ra mentions as it being like a clock striking the hour. I see our planet on the face of a clock.

This is basically correct. However, you should take into account the time/space configurations. Though the planet re-aligns its vortices to a more proper space/time receptory location in this galaxy, the influence is primarily of a metaphysical nature; in other words, non-local or of time/space.

This means that other planets are not sweeping the same area of the sky as we are, so go through different densities.
But then again, Venus is in 5th and I believe some 6th density, and it's not that far away from us. So I'm not sure if location in galaxy has something to do with harvest and density of the planet.

Again, this has largely to do with metaphysical aspects rather than physical.

[hogey11]

You do realize than when you refer to "us" you are also including those who seek in a different direction than yours, don't you? Therefore, the "right" thing for you may not be the "right" thing for them.

However, the time it will take to adjust, align and tune in to the 4th density vibratory patterns as a planetary collective will largely depend on how rapidly the awareness of the people changes, adapts, and molds into it. Resistance and/or unwillingness will be—or rather, is—the great detractor and procrastinator in this transition.

I align myself with the STO path, and therefore embrace the "us" vs "them" dichotomy. Doesn't mean I don't love them, it just means that I think we will be eventually shielded (I believe with knowledge of their workings) from the STS influences that we currently face from them. When this happens, I think the changes will come more 'abruptly' than many people might think. It might go slowly, but I also see a great yearning from society for a new paradigm. We'll just have to wait and see

[Parsons]

How gradually would things move if all the barriers were removed and we started supporting communities living in positive ways?

Who determines what is positive and thus what should be supported?

Why is is difficult to determine what is service to others, is it not extremely obvious? You are adding another layer of 3D-ness that will no longer be necessary in anything new.

So in 4D, everything will be simple?

I'm saying that the need for governments will be almost (if not entirely) unnecessary. I think there may be leaders, but they will be almost no "you can do this; you must do this" type stuff. Imagine everyone knowing basically what is STO auotmatically(the veil will be lifted), so you don't need to tell people not to murder rape and steal. The only thing left for leadership to do would be to direct people towards a proactive goal. Like if everyone decided to pray/meditate on something specific in concert.

I don't know it will be simpler overall. I think it will be much simpler in many areas yet new problems will arise with 4D. There is still the lesson learned of Love in 4D.

[AnthroHeart]

Like if everyone decided to pray/meditate on something specific in concert.

I don't know it will be simpler overall. I think it will be much simpler in many areas yet new problems will arise with 4D. There is still the lesson learned of Love in 4D.

That's a noble goal. I could see spending my time meditating and praying. The lessons of love in 4D might indeed be challenging.