Am I alone in my view of the dark?

[Patrick]

It's not beauty I am trying to see in these acts. I am trying to glimpse at the Love contained in such situations. There is ALWAYS LOVE in the moment. Any and ALL moments! IMHO beauty has nothing to do with it.

[godwide_void]

Please pinpoint the "love" when an individual slits the throat of another because the person he killed raped the mother of the murderer, and a lightning bolt conveniently strikes the throat-slitter, thereby roasting him immediately. The only twisted "love" found is that the throat-slitter commited the act out of loving vengeance for his mother, the rapist performed a sexual act out of "love" for the flesh, and the lightning bolt enacted natural karmic retribution out of "love" to counteract the immense hatred and wickedness of the act of slitting another's throat.

The underlying, omnipresent love, is the impersonal and divine love which is the nature of the Creator and the unfathomable love it holds for Itself and every manifestation it bothers to create and sustain. This love cannot be grasped by the human mind, in our limited notions of what constitutes love. All moments contain this love, but not all actions performed by less aware, lower beings are made from love or result in immediate or long-term instances of love manifest. Every thought, word and deed committed will receive, through divinely impersonal machinations, the corresponding energy placed behind it. One cannot justify or glimpse love, the human love we know, in a situation or event where it was not present either in intent or action.

Try to tell a rape victim or a war veteran that there is love in every moment. Even the most spiritually learned will dispute such a claim. There is love, but not love as we may know or understand it. It is not the type of love that we as humans are in any position to truly know and feel at this point in time or to be able to properly dispense or accurately and fully identify. To those who have displayed the capacity in this world to display literal, immediately obvious, purely motivated by the heart acts of love and kindness to another, will be capable of traversing further into the embrace of such boundless love. Do not confuse the notion that since "there is love in all moments" that this applies to the most radically dark of actions from our 3rd density perspective. The only true moment, is the eternal present which the Creator experiences, and this is sustained by Love. In the human peanut gallery we are privy to here, we have our own paradigm of illusion, and unfortunately there are thoughts and actions and words and experiences in which love played no hand in shaping whatsoever.

Is there love in the entheocide, or the assassination of the divine component within humanity, through the poisoning of our third eyes via fluoride and every campaign enacted against us meant to spiritually retard us by severing our connection to the Creator?

Patrick, I know very well the purity of your intentions and mind, and thus why I offer this reply to you in order to ensure that you do not fall into a pithole of delusion and find greater clarification in your perspectives. I invite you to ponder carefully the post I made at the end of the last page.

[Patrick]

...
Patrick, I know very well the purity of your intentions and mind, and thus why I offer this reply to you in order to ensure that you do not fall into a pithole of delusion and find greater clarification in your perspectives. I invite you to ponder carefully the post I made at the end of the last page.

My friend, we currently stand in a "pithole of delusion".

In my understanding, the "victim" lovingly accepted to be murdered so that the murderer could experience that which it wanted to experience.

The Creator wants to experience murder. So an aspect of the Creator needs to play the "victim", otherwise the Creator would not be able to experience murdering nor being murdered.

---

...Is there love in the entheocide, or the assassination of the divine component within humanity, through the poisoning of our third eyes via fluoride and every campaign enacted against us meant to spiritually retard us by severing our connection to the Creator?...

There sure is. By augmenting the difficulty level, they are giving much more metaphysical weight to our awakening.

[Richard]

".....In my understanding, the "victim" lovingly accepted to be murdered so that the murderer could experience that which it wanted to experience.

The Creator wants to experience murder. So an aspect of the Creator needs to play the "victim", otherwise the Creator would not be able to experience murdering nor being murdered....."

This is all theory. Some person's (or persons) journey into the unknown to try and make it explainable to us. And, you just have to know that its metaphor, right? Its not meant to be applied literally. Whatever happens on that plane of existence that is the catalyst for whatever incident or lifetime, for that matter...is so far removed from the human experience as to be literally un-explainable.

I believe the LOO is here to make us...THINK...about our exercise of Free Will. About how we use CHOICE before, during and after the application of catalyst in our lives.

But not to be taken literally. That way lies Dogma. And haven't we had enough of that to last several lifetimes?

Richard

[Patrick]

Finding out why "evil" exists has been a quest of mine in this incarnation.

The Law of One pretty much ended this quest for me.

You may all believe whatever you want, but I will continue to believe that ("there is love in the moment") means ALL moments and situations. And that I am simply not balanced enough to see this love within "evil" acts we see on this planet.

First I judged that murder was "wrong".
Then I understood that the Creator wants to murder.
Then I accepted that the Creator wants to murder.
Then I forgave my Self for the judgement I had made in the first place.

Without judgement there is no "wrong" and without judgement there is no "evil".

Otherwise none of it makes any sense whatsoever and we might as well not exists, because without this the Creator has no need to be many.

EDIT: Just to be clear. The answer I found to the question "why does evil exist" is; evil exist because of judgment and nothing else.

[Richard]

I guess we're all a big mishmash of various beliefs.

I propose we all meet up on the other side's version of a tavern and rib each other about previous selves.

But....not yet.

Richard

[Cyan]

Discernment happens in the process of deciding that you are in a situation where communication requires no discernment. Communication doesnt in itself require discernment but to get to the point of where you may be without discernment requires discernment. (called a paradox when to get to a point you need something that you no longer need once you get to the point, discernment is one such paradox i feel)

While technically accurate that communication doesn't require discernment, it is still so wildly inaccurate compared to the actual time/space process of step by step choice making that leads into places where discernment is not needed.

So yes, i agree with you in that there are ways of communication where dsicernment is not neccesary in the now. But to get to those the act is needed in the not now and its presence in the not now is my definition of its neccesity.

Dunno, maybe i'm wrong but i feel that that saying that discernment is not needed in communication is like saying that a heartbeat is not needed when you are in the 0.8seconds between beats.

---

So, hypothetically....

Lets all stand aside and watch someone butcher a child...

Richard

Eat any lamb in your life?

[Richard]

Can't stand lamb, as a matter of fact. Feel the same way about new age babble also.

Richard

[Pablísimo]

This topic has been on my mind as of late.... and I have a few thoughts to share.

For those of you that acknowledge the presence on this planet of a secretive, negative elite that is dedicated to mind control and rule over the masses, I ask you to consider a few things about this facet of "New Age thought". Wouldn't it benefit them greatly to implant such ideas in the very segment of the population most likely to actually be aware of their presence and of a mind to do something about it? Wouldn't a philosophy that legitimizes the dark Path, teaches that something is only "evil" or "wrong" because we "perceive it that way", urges total non-judgement of any act no matter how heinous, and encourages absolute acceptance of everything "as it is" be incredibly helpful to their agenda? Does it not discourage action and aid apathy and slumber? Has religion/spirituality not been used in the past to disempower us by wrapping truth up with lies? If they can mix "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" into the same philosophy that teaches "You're all sinners who need to be saved", is it really so far-fetched to imagine mixing Oneness with moral relativism??

For those that are not ready to acknowledge or those who truly do not believe the negative elite exist, then I ask you to consider this from other angles. What would the likely effect of such a teaching be on a person in an abusive relationship? How would it affect the mentally ill or someone in a warzone? What would the likely response be if one explained to the Native Americans two hundred years ago this "there is no right or wrong" philosophy as they watched the cultural genocide and disease epidemics brought by the Europeans? What effect would the philosophy have on someone engaged in a struggle for social justice or equality within their respective society? Would such a philosophy lead to positive action, mental clarity, and balance? Or could it serve to distract, to hypnotise, and in some cases even lead to greater suffering or martyrdom?

Have we stopped to ponder the implications of this philosophy? Could it be we swalled some bad advice along with the Truth?

I accept all other-selves as beautiful and unique expressions of the One Infinite Creator, but that doesn't mean that I accept every act of violence and control that any given entity may take. I understand that their words and deeds that infringe upon the rights of others are done out of ignorance... out of a forgetting of our Oneness. So I forgive. and I Love, without reservation. Yet that love and forgiveness does not mean, however, that I see their acts as inherently neutral. Despite the fact that we live in a subjective universe and that all BEINGS are ultimately the Creator, and completely acceptable..... all acts done in ignorance or malevolence are certainly not acceptable, in my opinion. Discernment is key, and there is a difference between the Actor and the AcTION.

To accept everything blindly is not co-creation, and I view it as an abdication of my responsbility as an aspect of the Creator to not work for positive change and oppose evil acts. I will participate in this world and make ethical choices, not hypnotize myself. I know that in an ultimate sense, EVERYTHING IS OK, but I don't abdicate my responsibility to use discernment here and now. I will follow the Light I perceive, even if that means I will sometimes "judge" a word or deed as "wrong". I can look a dark being in the eye and tell them that they are loved and accepted, and sincerely mean it, while simultaneiously rejecting their "right" to violent acts towards other-selves. This is our shared reality, and as co-dreamers we do have a say about what has a place in our world and what does not. For me, that guide is what is consonant with the Law of One. We must respect the sacredness and divinity in everyone else, and our free reign ends when it violates the free will and sacredness of others.

Personally, I try to let go of judgement of other-selves, but I have absolutely no intention of letting go of my ability to discern, nor legitimizing evil acts simply because it has a new name. New Age thought has greatly expanded my understanding, but my mind is not so open that my brains have fallen out and my moral compass is still in operation. Through my Law of One study, I feel I have gained an expanded view of ethics, not an agnostic one.

Things may work differently in higher dimensions, but we are currently incarnated as humans in 3D. Just because I know I don't need scuba gear while on land, doesn't mean I will foolishly toss aside my equipment while I'm still in the murky waters of 3D.

Love to all

[Bring4th_Austin]

This is a great thread with a lot to absorb, yet the surety in many words here is hard to get over at times. I wonder how it is people can be so sure that they alone have the answer to the what stands as the most complicated philosophical issue that faces our particular plane of existence? Perhaps there is more openness than I am perceiving.

---

The underlying, omnipresent love, is the impersonal and divine love which is the nature of the Creator and the unfathomable love it holds for Itself and every manifestation it bothers to create and sustain. This love cannot be grasped by the human mind, in our limited notions of what constitutes love.

I disagree that this cannot be grasped by our human mind. In fact, I believe it is the lesson/goal of this density to grasp this, as does Ra.

Try to tell a rape victim or a war veteran that there is love in every moment.

I consider this argument to be incredibly uninformed. Would you express to a rape victim who has discovered the presence of love in every moment that their realization is deluded? Do you truly feel you have the right to decide for another that their personal experience with this concept is invalid? Have you experienced either of these things? If so, why do you feel your own experience supersedes that of one who has found this love? And if not, why do you use this example?

I agree with you that the love in the moment is not the distortion our society has come to understand. I disagree that a firm grasp of the cosmic principle is necessary to find understanding and acceptance as signified by green ray activity.

[Patrick]

For those of you that acknowledge the presence on this planet of a secretive, negative elite that is dedicated to mind control and rule over the masses...

I do believe in this yes. In the way described in the Hidden Hand material.

...Wouldn't a philosophy that legitimizes the dark Path, teaches that something is only "evil" or "wrong" because we "perceive it that way", urges total non-judgement of any act no matter how heinous, and encourages absolute acceptance of everything "as it is"...

Like the Ra material you mean ? What the Law of One actually legitimizes is The Choice. Do not forget that STS continues to make this choice after 3d, after the veil is removed. It's not based on ignorance. Only the negative acts of the undecided would be based on ignorance and as long as you do negativity based on ignorance you will stay in 3d simply because you have not truly made The Choice yet.

...Would such a philosophy lead to positive action, mental clarity, and balance? Or could it serve to distract, to hypnotise, and in some cases even lead to greater suffering or martyrdom?

This is The Choice each have. But IMHO if all became aware of this philosophy of non judgment, there would quickly be nearly no negativity left on this planet. The Elites would have no more grasps on the people. Incidentally, I believe this is what is happening now and for the next couple centuries.

...So I forgive. and I Love, without reservation. Yet that love and forgiveness does not mean, however, that I see their acts as inherently neutral ... Discernment is key, and there is a difference between the Actor and the AcTION ... I can look a dark being in the eye and tell them that they are loved and accepted, and sincerely mean it, while simultaneiously rejecting their "right" to violent acts towards other-selves.

This attitude honors you. I do my best to do the same, except for this part "rejecting their right to violent acts towards other-selves". I believe it impossible for any selves to be a victim without accepting this first via free will. That said, I am unable to understand why anyone would want to experience or promote negativity. But this density is not a density of knowing.

I do not believe there are any neutral acts. Discernment is indeed key.

...To accept everything blindly is not co-creation, and I view it as an abdication of my responsbility as an aspect of the Creator to not work for positive change and oppose evil acts.

Aren't there ways to work for positive change without opposing evil ?

...I will follow the Light I perceive, even if that means I will sometimes "judge" a word or deed as "wrong".

Will you judge this as being wrong for you or will you judge it to be wrong for them too ? In other words, will you decide for your Self that you do not want to align with what you judged to be wrong or will you also try to impose this judgment unto other-selves ?

...
Love to all

Love to you as well my friend.

[Huntress]

This is a great thread with a lot to absorb, yet the surety in many words here is hard to get over at times. I wonder how it is people can be so sure that they alone have the answer to the what stands as the most complicated philosophical issue that faces our particular plane of existence? Perhaps there is more openness than I am perceiving.

I agree with every bit of this! Possibly the passionate views of this matter are causing us to forget humility & humbleness? Perhaps this is a misperception on my part, as you said. Encouraging us all to speak from an open heart.

---

[quote='Huntress' pid='95590' dateline='1346115414']
[quote='Bring4th_Austin' pid='95583' dateline='1346106023']

QUOTE FROM PABLISIMO:
"New Age thought has greatly expanded my understanding, but my mind is not so open that my brains have fallen out..."

I love that!!

[Unbound]

We seek within.

[Pablísimo]

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. Before I reply, I'd like to clarify that in that post (and this one) I am not in any way trying to make any hidden points about the rightness or wrongness of a person's dietary choice. I absolutely give you my word that I am discussing this topic right now only in terms of 3D to 3D interactions. 3D->2D interactions are worthy of serious thought for any Law of One student as well, but I think those facets of the conversation have already been covered in other places ad nauseum. I've had some general revelations of late that I've found helpful, and this seemed like a very appropriate conversation to share as it speaks to the OP. Honestly, I have no other agenda.

...Wouldn't a philosophy that legitimizes the dark Path, teaches that something is only "evil" or "wrong" because we "perceive it that way", urges total non-judgement of any act no matter how heinous, and encourages absolute acceptance of everything "as it is"...

Like the Ra material you mean ?

Yes, exactly like the Ra Material. Even though it has been the most enlightening spiritual information I have yet found, I see great value in asking myself difficult questions about it. I think it is healthy to question anything we accept as a "given", as "truth", and I am trying to consider the wider practical implications of such a philosophy. It is only after studying the Ra Material for several years and observing the effects of it upon a wide range of people that these questions even occurred to me! For some, appreciating Oneness seems to go right along with becoming unmoored from their moral compass, and I cannot help but wonder if that could be part of a wider agenda that does not have our best interests at heart. I have also perceived (subjectively of course) that many people most resonate with the "wanderer" concept and focus on that aspect as a way to negate the 3D work in Choice, in Polarity that must be done by everyone in this Density. It's as if the combination of vivid descriptions of how things work in higher densities, combined with awareness that some souls originate in those higher densities leads some to conclude that they should forego 3D work and live as if they already are in a higher density. In my view, that is a mistaken approach: Just imagine a person going through the lessons of 5D trying to act as if they were really in 6D. They would likely miss the point of the lessons right in front of them! Hmm.....would that serve a certain agenda?

Personally, I don't think the Ra Material actually does legitimize the Dark Path nor teach moral relativism; I actually think other new age sources and channels are promoting these ethics-neutral ideas, and that the influence of these other sources tend to color many folks' interpretations of the Ra Material. Bashar has to be the biggest example -- I cannot count the number of times I have seen a direct Bashar quote or understanding presented as originating with Ra, though of course there are many others. I don't claim to have definitive answers about anything, but I think it is well to consider these other, uncomfortable possibilities.

What the Law of One actually legitimizes is The Choice. Do not forget that STS continues to make this choice after 3d, after the veil is removed. It's not based on ignorance. Only the negative acts of the undecided would be based on ignorance and as long as you do negativity based on ignorance you will stay in 3d simply because you have not truly made The Choice yet.

Well, I am speaking in a 3D context here, and my personal understanding is that any 3D being who chooses to perform an act that violates the free will of another does so out of ignorance of our Oneness. You're right to point out there is awareness in higher densities, but again we are right here and right now in 3D.

Let's consider choices and judgement. Is it possible to choose AT ALL without some form of judgement? In my opinion, in order to make a choice one must make a judgement. Which is more appropriate and which is less so? In order to make "THE CHOICE", one has to make many, many judgements. 3D polarization is a constant process of choosing thoughts, words, and deeds that you judge to be "good", and choosing to refrain from thoughts, words, and deeds that you judge to be "bad". Of course we should let go of judgement of other-selves. We have no right to judge eachother. Who in 3D can really know what is in the heart of other-selves? Who has all the context, who knows the intent? And yet.... despite the fact that non-judgement of other people makes perfect sense, non-judgement of ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING does not... at least, not while incarnated in this density. How can one even utilize discernment if nothing is ever judged to be better or worse than another thing?

This is The Choice each have. But IMHO if all became aware of this philosophy of non judgment, there would quickly be nearly no negativity left on this planet. The Elites would have no more grasps on the people. Incidentally, I believe this is what is happening now and for the next couple centuries.

I understand this perspective, but unfortunately do not agree with it. I think a 3D world where "Good men do nothing" and absolutely ALL ACTS, without exception, are considered to be acceptable and OK, would very much give the Elites a free hand. Have you studied "psycopathy" at all per chance? If not, it may expand your viewpoint somewhat.

This attitude honors you. I do my best to do the same, except for this part "rejecting their right to violent acts towards other-selves". I believe it impossible for any selves to be a victim without accepting this first via free will. That said, I am unable to understand why anyone would want to experience or promote negativity. But this density is not a density of knowing.

That's a good point. None of us really know. Understanding is not of this density, and I could be completely wrong about all of it. I'm all for having a good laugh when the veil is lifted and we have some answers

I do not believe there are any neutral acts. Discernment is indeed key.

Indeed. But is discernment possible without judging anything?

Aren't there ways to work for positive change without opposing evil ?

I think there are, yes. However I believe the world is changing and transforming into a very positive 4D place. Part of that transition is going to be designing new systems and ways of governing ourselves. I want greater freedom and autonomy for everyone... but I absolutely oppose acts that violate the free will of others. If a person consciously agrees to be raped or murdered, then that's acceptable, but I'm not going to make any assumptions about any supposed agreements made between higher selves. While in 3D, unless there is conscious agreement, I oppose any act that violates the free will of another. So, I'm sorry, but I will be raising my hand in favor of outlawing murder and rape without consent in the new world...

...I will follow the Light I perceive, even if that means I will sometimes "judge" a word or deed as "wrong".

Will you judge this as being wrong for you or will you judge it to be wrong for them too ? In other words, will you decide for your Self that you do not want to align with what you judged to be wrong or will you also try to impose this judgment unto other-selves ?

I don't need to impose my opinions or judgements on other selves. It doesn't matter to me if others disagree with me with about anything. I don't need to control the thoughts of others, but as long as we are in 3D I believe we do need a very basic set of guidelines to help us live together harmoniously. Not a dogmatic set of Commandments or a system that does not respect the uniqueness of each and every situations. And again, I'm not speaking about food here as there is a difference of opinion about what constitutes an other-self. In the 3D realm, I say let people do anything and everything - do WHATEVER they want as long as it does not infringe on anyone else. The "guidelines" can be that simple. Does it infringe on the conscious free will of an other-self? If so, then it's not acceptable. Everything else is perfectly fine.

If believing the rights of others must be respected puts me at odds with New Age thought, then so be it. I guess I'm just a rebel

Love to you as well my friend.

My perception of you is that you consistently speak from the heart in a balanced way. Whether I agree with all your views or not, I sure do appreciate your unique and loving vibration. Thank you for sharing your perspectives with me. Namaste!

Love to all

---

This is a great thread with a lot to absorb, yet the surety in many words here is hard to get over at times. I wonder how it is people can be so sure that they alone have the answer to the what stands as the most complicated philosophical issue that faces our particular plane of existence?

I agree with every bit of this! Possibly the passionate views of this matter are causing us to forget humility & humbleness? Perhaps this is a misperception on my part, as you said. Encouraging us all to speak from an open heart.

Well said to the both of you!! I think it is extremely important for us all to remain humble, but I think in these interactions we are teaching eachother open hearted and open-minded communication.

This is not the density of understanding and no'one has all the answers or can be 100% certain of their correctness. All we can do is share our ideas and opinions, but no'one is an authority. Any or all of us may be completely wrong, after all. In my experience the very moment in which one claims enlightenment is the very same moment in which one proves their ignorance.

Here is one of my favorite Ra quotes:

16.39 Questioner: I am assuming that it is not necessary for an individual to understand the Law of One to go from the third to the fourth density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. It is absolutely necessary that an entity consciously realize it does not understand in order for it to be harvestable. Understanding is not of this density.

Love to All

[Shin'Ar]

...
I will acknowledge just in case that is what you are meaning, that discernment does play a vital role in the accuracy of the information being communicated.

But communication alone does not requi8re discerning parties, it simply requires connection of interaction, whether discerned information is shared or not.
...

How can you share discerned information? You can only share information and each will then discern for themselves. No one else can discern for you.

If I share information with you that I have not discerned in any way for its credibility or actual benefit, in other words I simply pass on information that I have heard without considering it in any way at all, that would be passing on information that has not been discerned.

If I have taken the time to scrutinize it and decide its worth or whether or not I need to alter it in some way to meet my understanding, then I would be passing you discerned information which would be much more valuable to you.

That is not how I see it. I would prefer to get all the information and then discern for my self.

Do you really believe I would be able to discern what is valuable to you ?

You misunderstood Valtor.

I did not say i was discerning the information for you so that you did not have to also do the same.

What I said is that the information being shared is information that has been thoughtfully considered by the one sharing it with you.

You are going to do exactly the same as another when you receive it.

If you are stating that is what you intend to do with it when you receive it, then why would you not expect the one giving it to you to do the same?

Or are you saying that all of the information you want to gather is information that no one else has previously discerned themselves?

Your response is a little confusing.

---

Am I thus to expect, that were I in a secluded area with any of you who attempt to justify darkness as some divine decree, that it would be necessary to be suspicious of your intentions and to guard myself against possible attack unto my being? That I should fear being assaulted or infringed upon or worry that I may experience suffering simply because from your perspectives, since everything exists within the Creator, both good and evil, and that such terms are too wish-washy and troublesome for you to maintain and thus have deleted the distinctions between both from your paradigm of reality, that your twisted moral obligations and quasi-sociopath perspectives would lead to harmful actions of "darkness" against me with the confused justification that the darkness is beautiful and perfectly OK from a macrocosmic perspective?

It would do you all well to heed the teachings here.

There is wisdom beyond anything that any of you have ever come across before, and you have no idea the source of this ancient wisdom.

What is being said is that though there may always be love in every moment, such love is revealed not in 'every' choice or action of that moment, but it is revealed only in acts that manifest love.

To try to take that a step further by speculating on the mirror image possible results which may somehow manifest in some further aspect of it as beneficial to someone, is simply unwise speculation and last ditch effort to make your hypothesis work.

Instead of desiring your original thought process to be wise and accurate, why not open your mind to learning and discovering wisdom in the opposition to what you are struggling to make work.

Would you not rather correct a mistake and continue in truth, than to continue in mistaken understanding?

Love is not a matter of everything that can possibly happen being love at some point in the entire process of being.

Love is that which actually happens in the moment between two or more sharing fields as the choice to act in love toward each other actually manifests that love.

Love is making the choice to go in the direction of love, which will manifest love. Such manifestation will be obvious and will not be disguised as hatred or any other manner of the opposite of love.

As Godwide so wisely pointed out, to what benefit is an act toward an other if that act results in a manifestation that is not love? And if we all knew that each and every person we share this life with all believed that beauty and love can be found in acts of hatred and abuse, than why would any of us trust another, or even want to share true love?

The very notion that love is found in every action regardless of its darkness or inhumanity, immediately establishes an environment between fields where true love is inhibited, and where insecurity, paranoia and caution become the regular interaction between us, as none of us would feel safe with another.

That is most definitely not an environment of love and harmony. And anyone that would try to talk around such fact is only creating such an environment for themselves to exists in.

[DMCubic]

I think this is an awesome thread and I'm going to post a response to this flood of new posts soon. Today I'm gathering my thoughts. It'll take an actual essay, almost, to respond well - it would be best for me to have my thoughts coherently arranged instead of just blurted out. I should be able to deliver a good post within three days.

Thanks for all the participation from all sides. Keep the posts coming and make my job challenging.

[Patrick]

Thank you Pablísimo for your comments. I find them very helpful in understanding and respecting your perspective.

---

You misunderstood Valtor.

I did not say i was discerning the information for you so that you did not have to also do the same.

What I said is that the information being shared is information that has been thoughtfully considered by the one sharing it with you.

You are going to do exactly the same as another when you receive it.

If you are stating that is what you intend to do with it when you receive it, then why would you not expect the one giving it to you to do the same?

Or are you saying that all of the information you want to gather is information that no one else has previously discerned themselves?

Your response is a little confusing.

Ah yes I get it now. Thank you my friend.

Of course nearly any information transmitted to other-selves will have been discerned before being transmitted (whatever the means of transmission). At least in veiled 3d that is.

[Shin'Ar]

Thank you Pablísimo for your comments. I find them very helpful in understanding and respecting your perspective.

---

You misunderstood Valtor.

I did not say i was discerning the information for you so that you did not have to also do the same.

What I said is that the information being shared is information that has been thoughtfully considered by the one sharing it with you.

You are going to do exactly the same as another when you receive it.

If you are stating that is what you intend to do with it when you receive it, then why would you not expect the one giving it to you to do the same?

Or are you saying that all of the information you want to gather is information that no one else has previously discerned themselves?

Your response is a little confusing.

Ah yes I get it now. Thank you my friend.

Of course nearly any information transmitted to other-selves will have been discerned before being transmitted (whatever the means of transmission). At least in veiled 3d that is.

You mean to tell me that you do not know anyone, or are aware of anyone, that just accepts whatever they're told, or read, at face value without any need to question it?

I can show you a whole church full of people like that right down the road from where I live.

[Patrick]

...
You mean to tell me that you do not know anyone, or are aware of anyone, that just accepts whatever they're told, or read, at face value without any need to question it?

I can show you a whole church full of people like that right down the road from where I live.

You believe church goers do not question their religion's dogma ? They may not voice it out, but I'm sure they all have internal questions. I have never known any Christians that had no questions about what we were told in Christian courses at school (where you are allowed to talk and ask questions unlike within a church).

[Huntress]

Am I thus to expect, that were I in a secluded area with any of you who attempt to justify darkness as some divine decree, that it would be necessary to be suspicious of your intentions and to guard myself against possible attack unto my being? That I should fear being assaulted or infringed upon or worry that I may experience suffering simply because from your perspectives, since everything exists within the Creator, both good and evil, and that such terms are too wish-washy and troublesome for you to maintain and thus have deleted the distinctions between both from your paradigm of reality, that your twisted moral obligations and quasi-sociopath perspectives would lead to harmful actions of "darkness" against me with the confused justification that the darkness is beautiful and perfectly OK from a macrocosmic perspective?

Remember, that you are human. You may be a form which the Void has taken, and this place may be illusion, and we might all truly be infinite, eternal beings of light and free from disharmony controlling these flesh and blood avatars, but for the time being what we do here is not illusion, and the choices we make and the direction we head in hold more weight than you may imagine. You are exploring the greater distortions of your higher being translated through human circumstances. If you are met with extreme darkness and continue to build off this darkness to such a degree that you have confused the erection of the pillar of wickedness within you as a reflective, parallel substitute to the light, you are gravely mistaken.

Your 2nd paragraph reaffirms our current status as human beings incarnate in 3D. You also point out the importance choice plays during this 3D experince. 3rd density is the density of choice, & indeed we are here in 3D in this illusion. Although I recognize and value the non-duality that is the macrocosm, I can choose not to allow that recognition to supercede or impede my skillful navigation of the tasks at hand in my present incarnation.

One of those 3D tasks/lessons is choice. Say you are in a secluded area with someone that has awakened, chosen STO, & chooses daily on a conscious level to polarize toward STO. Say that person accepts darkness on a macrocosmic level, but is grounded in this microcosmic 3D. As part of that microcosmic 3D, choice is required to skillfully evolve toward the Creator. In polarizing toward STO and consciously utilizing choice as a means of furthering that effort, you would have no need to be suspicious that you would be assaulted or infringed upon.

Here is where a moral compass is very necessary, & becomes IMHO perhaps even more evident. At that point it kind of exceeds a moral compass & becomes closer to an innate knowing. As part of its enlightenment, this 3D being would know, innately, that it would be unspeakable to inflict such an act of darkness upon an other self at this "now" time while still knowing how it All works out in the ripple effect. That one is not living within the illusion of the ripple effect at this "now" time. And the illusion in which we are working foremost is "now". If skillfully navigating the "now" for STO is one's intention and choosen path, then one MUST choose against darkness by choosing not to participate in it. So of course, you would have no reason to be fearful or gaurded near me or any other entity with those said perceptions or intentions.

I also choose to step back, to view 3D acts on a macrocosmic level, paying them the acceptance they are to be afforded. That acceptance may be afforded during meditation, prayer, etc. Imo A wise choice in STO would be to selectively share such accepting, non-dualistic views, offering only with an open heart to others working toward STO & looking to receive with open hearts. Why sharing such encompassing views of creation with certain other selves seems a less than prudent idea seems evident. It's a bit like when our Higher Selves block information from us. They would be doing the "now" us a disservice by revealing this information.

Same principle here for those having pierced intelligent infinity & obtained certain enlightenments, both personal & Universal. These entities, having this portion of the veil lifted, are wise to recall that not all around him/her in 3D have that amount os cosmic vision. With total humility, it is wise for one in STO to make the choice not to discuss higher concepts with those in whom it would likely spawn further distortions and misperceptions to an extent that it is more harmful than beneficial in the relative future i.e. may result in darkness in the relative future. (3D choices must be restricted by the constraints of time, as time is a part of the 3D illusion. Choosing to skillfully navigate 3D requires recognition of this restriction in choice. It is adhered to by a higher density entity incarnated in 3D if they are looking to participate skillfully in 3D.)

Perceiving that the revealing of such higher concepts, the planting of such seeds of thought, would cause negativity, then choosing to reveal the information anyway is choosing darkness. That is not STO. I hope this explaination makes it easier to see why I view everything here so paradoxically. I see the long & short of it, so to speak. But as Pablisimo said "i haven't expanded my mind so much that my brain fell out." I give full credit to the "now" incarnation I am living & the necessity of choice opposing darkness that brings for one choosing the path of STO. I also pay tribute to the balance darkness brings. The latter is done very, very passively in 3D. In meditation, prayer, spiritual communication, etc. I pay deeper homage.

I understand the importance of keeping some information reserved in this environment. For obvious reasons, reasons I respect as necessary. As I said previously, part of 3D transitioning to 4D is that not everyone will have the same perspectives of enlightenment at the same "now" time, but ppl will be seeking & awakening. This is a time for the furthering toward the energy of love.

Knowing that, knowing this forum is full of those seeking in STO, & me having chosen STO as well, I found it worth a try to express my OP. I did so with an open heart in STO to a group of other selves dedicated in STO & looking to skillfully evolve toward the Creator. If this OP can be shared at all, I think this is the best way it could be shared. I hope it would spark peace & unity within those reading it, not fear. That was never my intent.

Nothing will ever be well received by everyone. However, I can't say I consider sparking the idea of fear in an other self by voicing my perceptions is an optimum result. Then again, I am in this "now" moment viewing from limited awareness. I will see at another time the "overall" effects of my "now" efforts to offer peace & unity with respect to the individual in which I sparked the idea of fear, as well as with respect to the All. I shared my perceptions of darkness to offer the energy of peace & unity. I shared them in effort to spark further seeking of enlightenment regarding peace & unity, thus fueling the energy of 4D love in this planetary sphere.

I look at most things from this dual perspective of micro/macrocosmic. It may not be possible for that to be entirely understood or appreciated. If not, that's perfectly ok. It seems rather appauling to some ppl for me to view things in the manner in which I do. I do hope those ppl can at least try to understand it. I assure you I do not want to incite negativity, fear, etc. My goal is to offer peace & unity. I am not advocating darkness or negativity, & had hoped I'd made that clear throughout. This is a loaded topic. I very likely needed to better explain myself. This is a wonderful thread, though. Much love and wisdom being exchanged, despite adversity! I like it!

L/L

---

.....And if we all knew that each and every person we share this life with all believed that beauty and love can be found in acts of hatred and abuse, than why would any of us trust another, or even want to share true love?.....

I see your point here. I think it would be dangerous at this time when strong 3D energy is yet upon this planetary sphere & the human race for each & every person to have this knowledge. That is why the veil is in place. IMO those seeing beyond the consensus "norms" of the veil are able to do so bc they are grounded enough in the illusion of their current incarnation to skillfully navigate within the 3D illusion while maintaining cosmic vision.

I wouldn't want to trust just anyone in 3D with this belief. But I'd be perfectly comfortably trusting some one in 3D who shared my familiar perception of the belief. That's bc, if they share my perception, they would not choose to hurt me, cause pain, or bring darkness or negativity to me or any other self despite cosmic vision. They would be focused on skillful navigation of 3D in STO which requies choosing not to inflict darkness. I would have nothing to fear in trusting, loving, or sharing with this person. In fact, potential for deeper experiences of love, acceptance, & unity exist in such a scenario. That's just how I see it.

[Huntress]

......
Wouldn't a philosophy that legitimizes the dark Path, teaches that something is only "evil" or "wrong" because we "perceive it that way", urges total non-judgement of any act no matter how heinous, and encourages absolute acceptance of everything "as it is" be incredibly helpful to their agenda? Does it not discourage action and aid apathy and slumber?
.......
Things may work differently in higher dimensions, but we are currently incarnated as humans in 3D. Just because I know I don't need scuba gear while on land, doesn't mean I will foolishly toss aside my equipment while I'm still in the murky waters of 3D.
........

You make an excellent point. As with every available avenue, I'm sure the negative Elite have their hands in the New Age wave for this very purpose. I'm sure interventions are being interwoven to entangle this very concept into our illusion as a Universal Truth. Appeal to our thirst for higher ideals, then after we're suckered in attempt to misconstrue information. Enlightenment is acheived, then negativity attempts to offer cunning ways to make the entity believe choice is not necessary in 3D. Offer misinformation that choice is not a necessary tool for learning in 3D, giving the misperception that one is not responsible for one's own choices in this "now" time.

Imho, those receiving enlightenment are wise to challenge, question, & discern the implications & possibilities of all information to the fullest extent and effort of which he/she is mentally, spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, & intelligently capable. When penetrating intelligent infinity & offered enlightenment, it is well to utilize all available faculties of wisdom that are yet present in the currently incarnated form in receiving same. (If most skillful navigation of 3D in STO is the chosen path.)

Just as religion is a wonderful, necessary learning tool in 3D, so too is it stifling and misleading. I can see the potential for that in New Age (or any) philosophy, teaching, doctrine, etc. In this "now" time, it remains that darkness will exploit any thing it can to further darkness. One must guard his/her sacred being with wise & cautious challenging, questioning, & discernment. One must protect the inner sanctum where the spark of One abides. One may best serve by utilizing the current incarnation as opportunity. Again, only my OP.

L/L

[Patrick]

I would suggest we not forget that STS is there to show us that which we are not. I choose to forgive everything they do, because in the end it's a great service.

[AnthroHeart]

I would suggest we not forget that STS is there to show us that which we are not. I choose to forgive everything they do, because in the end it's a great service.

I've been very STS at times in my life. Well, not murdering, but self-pleasuring and such that is quite selfish. I can forgive myself for that. So it's easy to forgive others.

[Pablísimo]

Wow, Huntress, excellent post #80! Thank you very much for expanding upon your OP in such clarity and detail, as it does change (expand) my perception of your original premise immensely. I read it several times and see your point now, when viewed through a more cosmic perspective. I do feel that one can understand things from a non-dualistic, or macrocosmic, perspective but that simultaneously the practical aspects of 3D limitation and skillful navigation of this density through Choice should not be ignored. Holding a dual, macrocosmic/microcosmic vision is something that I - and I suspect many others - do as well, but I've never seen it articulated quite so well before.

I think this conversation is one that we really needed to have as a community. Even if there is still some disagreement and varied perspectives, this thread is absolutely packed with thoughtful and well-written posts that expound on several important, interrelated concepts. I am certain that each of us will find and take away what we most need from the conversation, and we will all be the greater for having considered these topics so thoroughly. I am deeply grateful to Huntress for sparking the dialogue, and also to everyone that contributed so much here.

Patrick - Of course you are completely right about the function of STS to show us that which we are not, thanks for the reminder. The Elite, in my view, are to be understood and forgiven, not hated or feared. Forgiveness has always seemed to me to be the very best possible response to them, not simply pretending they don't exist. However, forgiveness of their manipulation and even appreciation for their Service is NOT mutually exclusive with firmly refusing their offer of continued Service. At this stage of the game, since we know they are here and what they are doing -- I think we would all do well to remain AWARE. They should not be allowed to continue misleading and distracting us, and simple awareness dissolves their power. The earth is transforming into a positive 4D place, and their fearful and malevolent methods and manipulations no longer have a place here. For me, part of ushering in that transition..."Bringing 4th" if you will... is firmly, yet lovingly, refusing their Service and remaining aware and vigilent of any attempts to distract me from my Path. I am trying to take responsibility for my own thoughts and emotions, and a key aspect of that is sifting through my consciousness and removing any "poison thought forms" planted there by external influences. I am also trying to question all of my beliefs, even ones derived from the Ra Material or New Age thought in general, that's all.

In a nutshell, I say "Question everything... but love Everyone."

Love to All

[Huntress]

Wow, Huntress, excellent post #80! Thank you very much for expanding upon your OP in such clarity and detail, as it does change (expand) my perception of your original premise immensely. I read it several times and see your point now, when viewed through a more cosmic perspective. I do feel that one can understand things from a non-dualistic, or macrocosmic, perspective but that simultaneously the practical aspects of 3D limitation and skillful navigation of this density through Choice should not be ignored. Holding a dual, macrocosmic/microcosmic vision is something that I - and I suspect many others - do as well, but I've never seen it articulated quite so well before.

I think this conversation is one that we really needed to have as a community. Even if there is still some disagreement and varied perspectives, this thread is absolutely packed with thoughtful and well-written posts that expound on several important, interrelated concepts. I am certain that each of us will find and take away what we most need from the conversation, and we will all be the greater for having considered these topics so thoroughly. I am deeply grateful to Huntress for sparking the dialogue, and also to everyone that contributed so much here.

I'm so glad it was helpful. These issues of seeking lie at the cusp of an octave, as well they address the archetype of darkness. It's incredibly difficult to effectively explain myself on such vast & emotionally charged matters. I have really enjoyed everyone's input. It's wonderful to be able to verbalize my understanding of things in a community such as this. The point is not to get others to embrace my specific views, but rather to offer & inspire love. In the exchanges taking place, I believe much acceptance & unity has been generated. So my efforts have not been in vain at all.

[Shin'Ar]

Wow, Huntress, excellent post #80! Thank you very much for expanding upon your OP in such clarity and detail, as it does change (expand) my perception of your original premise immensely. I read it several times and see your point now, when viewed through a more cosmic perspective. I do feel that one can understand things from a non-dualistic, or macrocosmic, perspective but that simultaneously the practical aspects of 3D limitation and skillful navigation of this density through Choice should not be ignored. Holding a dual, macrocosmic/microcosmic vision is something that I - and I suspect many others - do as well, but I've never seen it articulated quite so well before.

I think this conversation is one that we really needed to have as a community. Even if there is still some disagreement and varied perspectives, this thread is absolutely packed with thoughtful and well-written posts that expound on several important, interrelated concepts. I am certain that each of us will find and take away what we most need from the conversation, and we will all be the greater for having considered these topics so thoroughly. I am deeply grateful to Huntress for sparking the dialogue, and also to everyone that contributed so much here.

I'm so glad it was helpful. These issues of seeking lie at the cusp of an octave, as well they address the archetype of darkness. It's incredibly difficult to effectively explain myself on such vast & emotionally charged matters. I have really enjoyed everyone's input. It's wonderful to be able to verbalize my understanding of things in a community such as this. The point is not to get others to embrace my specific views, but rather to offer & inspire love. In the exchanges taking place, I believe much acceptance & unity has been generated. So my efforts have not been in vain at all.

In ending, is there anything that this conversation has done to change any of your original thoughts at all? Just curious!

[Parsons]

This thread has both inspired and troubled me deeply. GW_V's post(s) lays the whole concept of duality clearly and concisely out there "on the table" for all of us to read, including the distortions that are being made by this community and other "new age" communities. The responses are what trouble me. This clearly exposes the rampant distortions that are present within the members of this community. This place is arguably the most positively oriented community existing on this planet at this time, yet it is not without distortion.

One of these distortions is taking the concept of finding love in every single action that is made way too far. There is no love in the mind of the murderer committing the heinous act or in the action of a brutal murder itself. There may be love as a result of this murder in the bringing together of the ones left alive in a learning experience, but the act itself was not necessary in the first place and there is no beauty or love in it. I think people are lumping in the action with the reaction together here.

I have thought nearly precisely the same thoughts that GW_V has put into his(their?) poignantly worded message in regards to people glorifying and cherry-picking negative ideals and weaving them together with STO concepts into a convoluted, distorted web of STO and STS distortion. To see my thoughts reflected months later perfectly reflected in GW_V's post confirm this notion.

I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings with this post, I just think its a very important concept for everyone to at least consider. Weaving STS ideals in with STO ideals and presenting it as STO not good for any parties involved, save maybe for STS disincarnate entities hoping for situations like this.

[Cyan]

This place is arguably the most positively oriented community existing on this planet at this time, yet it is not without distortion.

I struggle much to write a response to this that doesnt come off as insulting or degrading or somehow demeaning. So i will simply flat out say it.

Are you sure you want to claim the title of the most positively oriented community on the planet? OR was that maybe something that was written without proper clear thinking of the level of power you are attributing to the group and to yourself as a extension of the group.

IF you are serious in your perception that you are already in the most positively oriented community then I question your sanity in words as strong as those you choose to shower my view with:


"Distortions, trouble, rampant distortions, arguably, the most positively oriented community, distortion, distortions is taking the concept of finding love in every single action that is made way too far, there is no love in the mind of the murderer, committing the heinous act, a brutal murder, may be love as a result of this murder, there is no beauty or love in it, I think people are lumping in the action with the reaction together here. Glorifying and cherry-picking, negative ideals, weaving them together, a convoluted distorted web, distortion. I am not trying to hurt."

This is your post with the filler word removed Parsons. Are you saying that yours is less or more violent than the post where i said "murder is of the madre and as such must be loved in some level"

What i mean by murder is of the matter is this.

What is murder except a continous long term effect to shut out a viewpoint and all the personalities that live within that viewpoint of our collective human illusion. When you wish to push me away from the debate or push my opinions away, the final product of that push were i to refuse to move is murder. Murder is the willed and deliberate removal and elimination of opposing points of view. And as you have already declared that yours is the most positive community on the earth, and your choice of words reeks of violence and pain. I put to you that you are far more likely to let your emotions carry you to the outcome of murder than I am. I am however far more likely to know when it does carry me to death of a other self because i do not habitually hide behind the concept of living in the most positive community on earth.

And with this, i hope my point became well made and clear enough for all who wish to perceive to perceive it. I Still hold my original opinion that violence must be loved but not participated in, murder must be loved but not participated in. Neither pushed nor tried to remove because what is not needed falls away. And what is there to fall away into except pure love? =)

If anyone has no objections, i start to see this topic as generating disharmony and will prefer not to participate in it further. Intentions and words are getting mixed up and all around aggressive results seem to be the product of this thread. Maybe allow cooler heads to prevail in the preverbial wood plank to the forehead mode for a few weeks? To paraphrase Ra =)

[Parsons]

How did you possibly get "violence and pain" from my words? I was responding to a thread that originally sought to "find beauty and love in murder". I was stating my opinion of this just as anyone did here.

Your response about this being arguably one of the most positive communities in the world is quite confusing as well. If you took the size of the community compared to other communities or groups of a similar size, I'm sure we would be more positive in intentions overall than 99% of them.

Still more confusing is your impression I was "pushing you out of the debate" when you were never even on my mind when I composed the post. You respond as though I personally attacked you. I shouldn't have to say it since I was not specific whom I was speaking to, but that was directed at no one in particular.

[Cyan]

How did you possibly get "violence and pain" from my words? I was responding to a thread that originally sought to "find beauty and love in murder". I was stating my opinion of this just as anyone did here.

Your response about this being arguably one of the most positive communities in the world is quite confusing as well. If you took the size of the community compared to other communities or groups of a similar size, I'm sure we would be more positive in intentions overall than 99% of them.

Still more confusing is your impression I was "pushing you out of the debate" when you were never even on my mind when I composed the post. You respond as though I personally attacked you. I shouldn't have to say it since I was not specific whom I was speaking to, but that was directed at no one in particular.

Without having met 99% of them, i can not say, because i believe my saying would be a reflection of what i wish for in the now and the actuality of the community around me being, forever, in a state of flux as i travel through it. So, i can not say, i feel that this community is positive, but i do not confuse what i feel to be true with what i think to be/know to be true.

Tha tbeing said, i believe that the attribution of "I am or we are as a community better than 99% of humanity in being a good guy/positive" is at its core, highly STS.

That is all I can say about this that I have not alreadys said in some form.