In regards to eating meat

[Tenet Nosce]

First of all, I'm not mad. I'm just writing in an animated fashion. Call it "passion" if you like. Second of all, I wasn't really responding to you with my post, but more so to Pickle. But be as that may...

Absolutely.

No freakin way. I don't believe it. Your own quotes and Pickle's are *maybe* debatable, but not yossarian's. No way. Those quotes clearly indicate that everybody should be a fruitarian. A fruitarian!

There was a guy in naturopathic school I knew who was a fruitarian. He was very tall, with a sallow complexion, brittle nails, and sunken in eyes. He liked to go around telling everybody how fruitarianism was the "one true way". He graduated, and became a doctor. A doctor. Advising others with severe illnesses how to eat.

He got stomach cancer. I can only wonder how his patients held up under his "expert advice".

Beyond that- they are in the very beginning of the thread... so I think those are the types of comments most people are responding to when they come into this thread. As I was.

Actually, I am growing weary of this marathon thread.

Monica- I truly mean this as a service and not a personal "attack" but I have noticed that you have a tendency to get "weary" or "tired" in a thread whenever a point is brought up that demonstrates a glaring contradiction in your words. Just an observation to ponder as you will.

Beyond this- you have stated multiple times in this thread that you are just "trying to understand" how a spiritually-inclined person can reconcile meat eating with their beliefs. I have seen very intelligent and well-thought out replies by multiple people, including (but not limited to) Ali Quadir, wintersun, fairyfarmgirl, Richard, irpsit, Whitefeather, Lorna, thefool, litllady, Bring4th_GLB, Bring4th_Aaron, Bring4th_Steve, Pablísimo, Meerie, Namaste, @ndy, transiten, kycahi, abridgetoofar, TheEternal, and myself.

Each of these people has offered very thoughtful and genuine replies. Yet- you appear just as "confused" as you were three years ago. My apologies- I mean no offense- but this causes me to be a bit incredulous about your stated desire "to understand" where others are coming from. Seems to me that you have already decided that a spiritually-inclined person eating meat is "not understandable" to you, no matter what they say.

Sorry, but I am calling BS. I don't think you really want to understand this.

[Plenum]

[BrownEye]

I'll be happy to hang out and push the buttons. This ain't automated yet.

[Monica]

Monica- I truly mean this as a service and not a personal "attack" but I have noticed that you have a tendency to get "weary" or "tired" in a thread whenever a point is brought up that demonstrates a glaring contradiction in your words. Just an observation to ponder as you will.

You have got to be kidding. I have hung in there on this thread, while dozens of others have come and gone. I very very rarely ever leave a discussion. If anything, I've been accused of persisting too much.

It can't be both ways. I can't simultaneously be persisting too much and leaving when it gets uncomfortable.

Not true, Tenet. It's just not true. There is no contradiction in my words. I have been discussing an ideal to aspire to - the ideal of a lifestyle that doesn't support needless violence.

I have consistently refused to engage in any discussion about any particular person. If there was any merit to what you just said - that the I am dictating what others should eat - then surely I would have done so when people have asked. But I didn't.

On the contrary. At least a dozen or so people have pointedly asked me to assess their diets, as though seeking validation, approval, or an excuse from me. I have consistently refused. Why? Because I'm not interested in telling anyone what to do.

If some people cannot tell the difference between describing an ideal ("an ideal home is one with healthy, loving parents") and judging someone ("you are a bad mother") that isn't my fault.

I leave threads when they start going round in circles, or when people keep asking me to repeat stuff I've already said. If they can't or won't read the entire thread, why do they expect me to spend MY time repeating it for them?

Not to mention the absurdity and the irony of telling me - who has read every single post on this thread and responded to many, if not most, of them - that I don't want understanding. This, coming from someone who, as far as I can tell, has not read the whole thread.

Actually, I'm not confused at all. I think I get it now, loud and clear.

Beyond this- you have stated multiple times in this thread that you are just "trying to understand" how a spiritually-inclined person can reconcile meat eating with their beliefs. I have seen very intelligent and well-thought out replies by multiple people, including (but not limited to) Ali Quadir, wintersun, fairyfarmgirl, Richard, irpsit, Whitefeather, Lorna, thefool, litllady, Bring4th_GLB, Bring4th_Aaron, Bring4th_Steve, Pablísimo, Meerie, Namaste, @ndy, transiten, kycahi, abridgetoofar, TheEternal, and myself.

Each of these people has offered very thoughtful replies. Yet- you appear just as "confused" as you were three years ago. My apologies- I mean no offense- but this causes me to be a bit incredulous about your stated desire "to understand" where others are coming from. Seems to me that you have already decided that a spiritually-inclined person eating meat is "not understandable" to you, no matter what they say.

Sorry, but I am calling BS. I don't think you really want to understand this.

You can call it whatever you like, Tenet. It seems to me that you are the one making this personal. I have never attacked you. Why you have suddenly decided to attack me, I have no idea.

I have done the same thing throughout this entire thread - sought to have a respectful, intelligent discussion about spiritual principles as pertaining to the unnecessary torture and slaughter of sentient beings.

Yes, many have offered their views, but they have been mostly defensive. What's BS is saying I haven't sought to understand them, or that I haven't honored and respected them.

If I was interested in judging others, then why didn't I say anything to yossarian when he told us he had started eating meat again?

Why did I comment that his post was 'profound'?

Why did I have a highly respectful discussion with someone who raises and kills animals, and even tell him he is working for the same cause I am?

This is BS, Tenet. Monkey, I get. But you?

I'll tell you what gets a rise out of me. It's when people insist on turning something personal.

If you people are having trouble dealing with your own suppressed guilt about your contribution to violence, don't take it out on me.

Now THAT was judgmental. Intentionally so.

I'm done with this.

It took me 101 pages to get pissed off.

Now I'm pissed off.

Good idea, plenum. I think I shall.

to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism

[drifting pages]

THAT SLUG !

[Monica]

I'll be happy to hang out and push the buttons. This ain't automated yet.

I hope you're thicker-skinned than I am, Pickle. I tip my hat to you. Carry on! and best wishes to you!

[BrownEye]

I hope you're thicker-skinned than I am, Pickle. I tip my hat to you. Carry on! and best wishes to you!

I grew up eating animals, it creates thick skin.

[Diana]

Meat-eating is not just about health of the individual's body, in my opinion. As beings seeking higher consciousness, there is the idea of conscious living. These are (some of) the issues at hand regarding eating meat:

1) physical health
Certainly, when speaking of physical health alone, it seems reasonable to follow what the body needs, assuming that the body is healthy enough to give clear signals. There is, however, in general, evidence that certain foods promote better health and cause less harm.

2) sustainability
The health of ecosystems, all life, and the Earth itself are aspects to consider when deciding what to grow and eat, and how to do it.

3) treatment of other-selves
"In regards to eating meat," which is the subject of this thread. Our animal brothers and sisters.

4) spiritual implications
This aspect is complex. First, there is free will to be respected in 3D. But free will is not the end-all of spiritual evolution. 4D is not about choice, and on up through layers of growth. One could just be 3D here, and only be concerned about free will. Fine. I choose to do more regarding what I eat and all the ramifications of it. I choose to evolve as far as I can toward what I see as a future more in balance with all life (3D human choices have wreaked havoc on balance here). Does this make me better? No.

There are other aspects of the spiritual implications of eating meat that many spiritual teachers talk about such as the karma of eating animal flesh, the heaviness and fear associated with eating it, and so on, that can be discussed. I don't "follow" spiritual teachers, but I listen to information and assess for myself. We share information here.

This thread, as I see it, is for discussion, information, viewpoints. In the "normal" world of asleep people, this discussion could be seen as infringing on free will, as those individuals would not be seeking answers about it. BUT WE ARE. All of us are seeking growth, knowledge, spirit, whatever you want to call the curiosity of things beyond the physical.

So let's discuss, and it's okay if things get a little uncomfortable. This is apparently a huge trigger/catalyst. In my experience, it's not wise to ignore catalyst. This thread has helped me to widen my understanding immensely, much as Pablisimo mentioned.

This is a discussion. Just that. Just a discussion. between individuals who are here to discuss.

[Tenet Nosce]

Haha... no just kidding it wasn't an April Fools prank. Or was it?

Anyway... the post was being edited as it was being responded to. Though I don't believe any of the quoted parts have changed. I must now retire my defiled body to bed. Perhaps if I were a breathairian, I would no longer require sleep.

[Plenum]

MERCURY RETROGRADE

[@ndy]

I find this interesting. As I'm working on what bugs me about this thread

I live with my partner who is veggy, we rub along fine. We have no problem at all with what each other eats.


Monica
From you posts. I'm assuming if you were to eat meat, you would feel guilt about it? due to the suffering of the animal.

I know my partner has told me that were he to eat meat, he would feel guilt and thus doesn’t (He has in the past few years started eating fish - this doesn’t make him feel guilty)


I'm making a leap here please correct me if I'm wrong but do you assume, that 'aware' people who do eat meat are repressing there guilt about it?

(I added the 'aware' cause I'm guessing some people don't much consider what they eat)

[Tenet Nosce]

1) physical health
Certainly, when speaking of physical health alone, it seems reasonable to follow what the body needs, assuming that the body is healthy enough to give clear signals. There is, however, in general, evidence that certain foods promote better health and cause less harm.

Those studies were conducted out of the assumption that there is a "one true way" to begin with. There is an unspoken premise that all bodies are the same, and that it makes sense to generalize based on a research finding. This is despite mountains of other evidence which clearly indicate that every body is different.

2) sustainability
The health of ecosystems, all life, and the Earth itself are aspects to consider when deciding what to grow and eat, and how to do it.

That's all very nice to take into consideration. And yet- the fact of the matter is- we don't really know how it all fits together. In truth- we have little idea how all of these things come together to impact "all life" or "the planet"- but that doesn't seem to stop people from presenting theories as facts.

In my opinion- which is an opinion and not a fact- the majority of damage to the ecosystem that we observe is due to the farming of wheat, corn, and soy. As such, many vegans/vegetarians are just as much a part of the problem as the meat-eaters. Biodynamic farming is one solution offered to this- but it uses animals in the process, and eats them in the end.

3) treatment of other-selves
"In regards to eating meat," which is the subject of this thread. Our animal brothers and sisters.

Again, that is an interesting discussion. But the fact is- we don't know. We don't know how "the animals" feel about this situation because they haven't spoken to us. And as far as I am aware, there is not a single example of any entity from beyond the veil that has channeled a message on behalf of the animals imploring us to stop eating them.

If the animals were so "offended" by humans eating them, then why would the Creator have chosen to fashion us out of an omnivorous species? And no, I don't buy into the whole "because we are being tested" argument. That sounds like some "Christian" mumbo-jumbo to me. The Creator doesn't "trick" us.

4) spiritual implications
This aspect is complex.

To the contrary- this is the most simple of them all. The spirit cannot be damaged, but for the possible exception of a nuclear blast, and even that is repairable. It is pure, pristine, and inviolable. All "spiritual growth" is the result of a progressive understanding of the inviolable nature of spirit.

[BrownEye]

4) spiritual implications
This aspect is complex.

To the contrary- this is the most simple of them all. The spirit cannot be damaged, but for the possible exception of a nuclear blast, and even that is repairable. It is pure, pristine, and inviolable. All "spiritual growth" is the result of a progressive understanding of the inviolable nature of spirit.

The other bodies are tied to our physical. What we do in this physical has an effect on how we get through the astral to our next phase of choices. In fact everything we do creates the next phase. We are creating 4D (if we are successful) The next earth is created by this earth.

Evil is part of the illusion.

Suffering is not. Suffering continues. Why do you suppose their is healing needed after some will incarnate? Who cares if you are eternal if you suffer eternally LMAO!

---

(of course you don't suffer because you ate meat LoL, but I am sure it is possible through a matter of consciousness)

[Monica]

Monica
From you posts. I'm assuming if you were to eat meat, you would feel guilt about it? due to the suffering of the animal.

Nope. Been there done that. After 15+ years of being a vegetarian, I had some serious health issues that no one could figure out. In desperation, I let an alternative health practitioner convince me to eat meat again. He insisted I was "too yin" and "needed the yang energy of meat."

So for about 2 years, I dutifully ate chicken, salmon, and even venison a few times.

Guess what - it did NOT help my problem. AT ALL.

So I returned to my true veggie self, and about 5 years later, found the solution to my health problems. It had nothing to do with meat. Nothing.

But during that time, I gained much more compassion for those with health issues. This is why I fiercely defend Carla's choices. We don't know what she has been through. She doesn't want to be a guru, and has even spoken approvingly of being vegetarian, but she cannot due to her health issues. It's unfair to HER, to use her as the poster child for "eating meat is ok - look, Carla does it!"

It's unfair to her to put her in that position. It puts a burden of responsibility on her. She has emphatically stated, even as recently as 2 days ago (on the radio show) that she's "Just a normal person." I love Carla dearly and will NOT allow people to put her in the position she clearly doesn't want to be in, or have her diet or lifestyle analyzed. I don't want anyone being analyzed. That's why I have consistently refused to analyze anyone's personal choices, even when explicitly asked to do so.

I keep trying to keep the conversation general and philosophical, but people keep insisting on making it personal. I've just had enough of that struggle.

My venture into meat-eating is also why I was able to understand yossarian's situation. Clearly, he had a reason for eating meat again. I can totally relate to it. I didn't judge him AT ALL, which totally disproves anyone telling me I'm judging those who eat meat. If that were true, then why didn't I pounce on yossarian? After all, he has left the fold, right?

When I was eating meat during those 2 years, I didn't feel guilt at all. I found it extremely unpleasant, and had to drown the meat in hot salsa to get it down. But I didn't feel guilt.

Why? Because I was doing it only to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism.

I did what I had to do. In my particular case, it didn't help. It was just a lesson in humility, to teach me to not make vegetarianism into a religion.

And I haven't. So I don't like being told I have, when I haven't.

This thread has been going on for 2 years now. It has the most views, and maybe the most posts, or any thread on the forum. Not once, until last night, have I said a single word about any particular person's choice of diet. It's not my place to decide whether, for example, yossarian 'should' eat meat. It's not my place to judge anyone's individual situation. I am quite acutely aware of this, because I sure didn't want my vegetarian friends judging me when I ate meat again during those 2 years! I know from experience what it feels like. That's why I haven't done that. So to be told I'm doing that, when I'm not, doesn't sit well with me. I have steadfastly refused to analyze other people, because I know from experience that we all have our own personal situations to deal with, and it's simply isn't my place to analyze anyone. Thus, I have discussed the spiritual and philosophical implications only.

This, despite being asked at least a dozen times, to analyze someone's level of purity regarding meat. "Monica, I only meat twice a week...can you please approve me and praise me?" Not in those exact words, but that is essentially what has been asked of me numerous times.

I refuse to be anyone's judge.

As Pablisimo stated, my view about the unnecessary torture and killing of animals is more steadfast than ever.

I have given up trying to convey to everyone, that there is a difference between have convictions philosophically, and judging others.

I have tried repeatedly, but what good is it, when they don't even bother to read the whole thread?

I cannot be expected to keep repeating myself, and spend MY time doing that, when they aren't willing to spend their time reading what has already been posted.

Hence, I'm going to cease participating in this thread, unless/until some new discussion arises.

To say that I'm running away from points made is absurd. Just simply absurd. I have hung in there all this time. I haven't run away, and I'm not running away now. I'm just tired of repeating myself.

I'm making a leap here please correct me if I'm wrong but do you assume, that 'aware' people who do eat meat are repressing there guilt about it?

I made that comment when I was angry. I had never said anything like that before in this thread. But I decided to go ahead and say it last night, because at that point, it didn't seem to matter what I said, or how I said it, anyway. No matter how respectfully, no matter how much I tried to be sensitive, compassionate, and understanding, it didn't matter. I was perceived as being judgmental, NOT because of what I said, but because of my views.

For the record, @ndy, I actually appreciated your honesty in post #1987. Even though I was the catalyst for your feelings, I felt nothing but love and compassion when I read your post. I sincerely mean that. I could see that you were struggling with some issues, and I genuinely hoped that you were able to work through them, in whatever way was for the highest good for you.

I don't assume anything about anyone, unless/until they get all butthurt when someone is expressing their opinions.

If people felt totally comfortable eating animals, they wouldn't care what I (or anyone else) thought about it. The very fact that there is such a strong emotional charge, and such a defensiveness, on this thread, indicates to me that yes, on some level they are struggling with it.

(I added the 'aware' cause I'm guessing some people don't much consider what they eat)

Exactly. I don't get nearly this strong of a reaction from my brother who really doesn't care one whit about animals. He just laughs and merrily takes a bite out of his steak.

It's the people who are aware, that tend to lash out.

Thank you for the respectful effort at understanding, @ndy!

Note: Post has been edited to fix a few typos and a few sentences added. No content was changed.

[@ndy]

Thanks Monica for your reply.

I thought about it lastnight, and I realised after you reply that what I was thinking wasn't valid. So thanks for taking the time to discuss and explain.

I also pondered why I was 'attached' to what I percived as a judgmental attitude from you.

Everyone is entitled to think and feel what ever they want



If I'm comfortable with my self and my choises then what other people think dosn't matter to 'me' at all

Thanks Monica, you have helped me understand this.

[BrownEye]

the majority of damage to the ecosystem that we observe is due to the farming of wheat, corn, and soy. As such, many vegans/vegetarians are just as much a part of the problem as the meat-eaters.

Wheat corn and soy I have already stated is bad for our system.

Corn: The United States is, by far, the largest producer of corn in the world. Corn is grown on over 400,000 U.S. farms. In 2000, the U.S. produced almost ten billion bushels of the world’s total 23 billion bushel crop. Corn grown for grain accounts for almost one quarter of the harvested crop acres in this country. Corn grown for silage accounts for about two percent of the total harvested cropland or about 6 million acres. The amount of land dedicated to corn silage production varies based on growing conditions. In years that produce weather unfavorable to high corn grain yields, corn can be “salvaged” by harvesting the entire plant as silage.

According to the National Corn Growers Association, about eighty percent of all corn grown in the U.S. is consumed by domestic and overseas livestock, poultry, and fish production. The crop is fed as ground grain, silage, high-moisture, and high-oil corn. About 12% of the U.S. corn crop ends up in foods that are either consumed directly (e.g. corn chips) or indirectly (e.g. high fructose corn syrup). It also has a wide array of industrial uses including ethanol, a popular oxygenate in cleaner burning auto fuels.

http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/cropmajor.html

What is that, 240 million acres just to feed meat so that we can eat it? LoL!

[Shemaya]

Agree with you on that one Pickle, that's craziness.

Our entire food production system is so messed up...I respect vegetarians, and even more so organic, small farmers who are doing the work that will change our system into a much better one. THANK YOU AUSTIN!!!

Has anyone read or listened to any of Michael Pollan's work? He has such good insight into the whole issue of food production and makes so much sense.

When I think of suffering on the planet, it's not just the animals I think of but the whole gamut of suffering....so the question I continually ask myself is: "How can I serve the emerging paradigm?" For me it is best to focus my will and intention on developing my gifts and talents and using them to serve. For me right now, its not about rearranging my life so I can be vegetarian, for a bunch of personal reasons.

When I think of vegetarianism, as a service to abet suffering, I think of it as a spiritual practice...it's a lifestyle, a living practice to help manifest a world where suffering is in the past. Like any spiritual practice, meditation, prayer, communion with the HS...it will lighten your spirit, it will have physical effects on the body, it's a really good spiritual practice. We can hold that same intention and prayer whether we become veggie or not, and it's not better or more evolved than any other spiritual practice, imo.

I have found yoga to be helpful to me, and it is extremely beneficial as a practice, even just the physical aspect, asanas. But I would not expect my husband or kids or family to practice with me...they are christian and it kind of freaks them out.

Like yossarian said, food is such a social ritual, and when your choices are different from those all around you...it can be problematic....so what is the best thing to do? You do what you are called to do, and what your are able to do and whatever is going to promote physical/mental and spiritual health for you and those you love.

So food choices are very much in a social/ cultural and conditioned context, and all that must be considered in the choice. In an ideal world, no beings inflict or contribute to the suffering of another being....but that is not how 3D is. Here and now, everyday, no matter what we do, there are others suffering... animals, children, women, men, all over the world are in pain.

That's why we seek and practice, we want the liberation from suffering, we want MORE light, MORE love on this little planet in the milky way who is moving to 4D where things will really change.

Namaste to the vegetarians for their practice, and to all others on this board who meditate, who seek, who love Gaia and want to see suffering end.

That's what I desire and I will focus my attention on that and serve the emerging paradigm in a way that utilizes my gifts and talents in service to the Creator.

[Monica]

Like any spiritual practice, meditation, prayer, communion with the HS...it will lighten your spirit, it will have physical effects on the body, it's a really good spiritual practice. We can hold that same intention and prayer whether we become veggie or not, and it's not better or more evolved than any other spiritual practice, imo.

I like your post overall, Shemaya. I just wish to point out that these statements focus on the benefits to self.

To us, it's the same.

It's not the same to the animals.

[Shemaya]

I would like to hear a viewpoint on how eating meat is evolved.

Not sure what you mean by "evolved'...you mean spiritually or physically?

I heard an interview by this guy a year or so ago and thought it was really interesting, Aajonus Vonderplanitz



He has a really interesting testimonial. He had multiple medical issues through his life, and was autistic. As a young adult went on a vegan/ vegetarian diet which did not solve his issues, he became really ill and decided he wanted to starve himself to death, he went out into the desert to die, either wolves or coyotes (don't remember which) brought him a rabbit for food which he ate raw....and he got better and ended up healing his body with the "primal Diet....raw food including raw meat. Since then he apparently has helped many people heal through their diet with his guidance.

Here is another source on meat-eating and evolution.

Meat Eating and human Evolution

From a review:

It supports the traditional consensus view that humans evolved from a mostly-vegetarian ape-like ancestor with a small brain, with the evolution of sociability, intelligence, and cooperation being due in large part to the exigencies of meat-eating. Meat is good food for the growing brain, among other things, but hunting--in an animal lacking fangs and claws--tends to require a great deal of cooperation. (In fact, even such fanged creatures as lions and wolves depend on exquisite cooperation within complex social systems.) Humans evolved in Africa, which seems less well endowed with easily exploited vegetable foods than some other continents, forcing more dependence on hunting and scavenging. The present book summarizes the enormous recent advances in our understanding of human evolution. A combination of archaeology, nutrition studies, and comparative studies of other primates have provided new proofs for the old model. It looks as if humans progressed (if that is the word) from near-vegetarians two million years ago to people who, at the dawn of agriculture 10,000 or 12,000 years ago, were eating anywhere from 10% to nearly 100% animal foods--average perhaps 20%. Neither the view of humans as natural vegetarians nor the view of humans as savage "killer apes" can be supported.

The researchers indicate that meat eating helped evolve our brain physically, and also contributed to the evolution of society because of the requirement for cooperation in hunting.

---

Like any spiritual practice, meditation, prayer, communion with the HS...it will lighten Our spirit, it will have physical effects on Our Body/ the planetary sphere, it's a really good spiritual practice. We can hold that same intention and prayer whether we become veggie or not, and it's not better or more evolved than any other spiritual practice, imo.

I like your post overall, Shemaya. I just wish to point out that these statements focus on the benefits to self.

To us, it's the same.

It's not the same to the animals.

I don't disagree with you at all, Monica, animals suffer unnecessarily on this planet just as humans do. I agree that there is unnecessary suffering.

I edited the my quote because what I am trying to get across is that we are in this together as a collective, we are evolving together. Those of us who are spiritually awakened know this to be true, but all of us can't be vegetarians. Even if we were vegetarians, we would still contribute to the suffering of both animals and humans in some way just by being part of the social matrix that we live in, it's impossible to avoid. The food we feed our pets, all the additives that you mentioned that are derived from the slaughterhouses.....we could drive ourselves crazy trying to eliminate every aspect of our lives that contribute to suffering. Easier to do if you are alone, but much harder if you are part of a family/ community that does not see things the same way.

So I say we respect one another with our differences and contribute what we can and are called toward in the lightening of the planetary sphere.

[Monica]

He has a really interesting testimonial. He had multiple medical issues through his life, and was autistic. As a young adult went on a vegan/ vegetarian diet which did not solve his issues, he became really ill and decided he wanted to starve himself to death, he went out into the desert to die, either wolves or coyotes (don't remember which) brought him a rabbit for food which he ate raw....and he got better and ended up healing his body with the "primal Diet....raw food including raw meat. Since then he apparently has helped many people heal through their diet with his guidance.

There was clearly something he was missing, that was found in the raw meat. But that doesn't mean he couldn't have found it in a veg diet. Just because he didn't, doesn't mean he couldn't have.

A single case doth not conclusive make.

The researchers indicate that meat eating helped evolve our brain physically, and also contributed to the evolution of society because of the requirement for cooperation in hunting.

Undoubtedly it did, at the time, as the new 3D humans evolved, having been 2D animals hitherto.

The question NOW is:

As we evolve to 4D, what will help us NOW?

---

I edited the my quote because what I am trying to get across is that we are in this together as a collective, we are evolving together.

Think about the many millions of animals brutally killed every single day. 9 billion per year, in the US alone.

That's just the slaughter.

HERE is what is going on, to billions of animals, on a daily basis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDXvm8Vwb...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXSzIhFlz...re=related

Do you really think this isn't holding us all back?

Those of us who are spiritually awakened know this to be true, but all of us can't be vegetarians.

Most of us can. It might entail a bit of inconvenience at first, but we can.

...to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism

Even if we were vegetarians, we would still contribute to the suffering of both animals and humans in some way just by being part of the social matrix that we live in, it's impossible to avoid.

That's been addressed. If we eliminate the problem at its root - the meat industry - the bulk of it would be eliminated. The only way to eliminate the meat industry is to quit eating meat.

So I say we respect one another with our differences and contribute what we can and are called toward in the lightening of the planetary sphere.

I honestly don't understand all this talk of lightening, when we know these atrocities are taking place, and there is something we can do about it.

Other atrocities take place that we can't control. We have no control over someone brutally murdering another person across the planet.

But this is something we CAN do something about.

[Shemaya]

He has a really interesting testimonial. He had multiple medical issues through his life, and was autistic. As a young adult went on a vegan/ vegetarian diet which did not solve his issues, he became really ill and decided he wanted to starve himself to death, he went out into the desert to die, either wolves or coyotes (don't remember which) brought him a rabbit for food which he ate raw....and he got better and ended up healing his body with the "primal Diet....raw food including raw meat. Since then he apparently has helped many people heal through their diet with his guidance.

There was clearly something he was missing, that was found in the raw meat. But that doesn't mean he couldn't have found it in a veg diet. Just because he didn't, doesn't mean he couldn't have.

A single case doth not conclusive make.

His story is quite remarkable, but he has also help hundreds of others to heal from diseases such as cancer.

He advocates raw, raw milk, raw meat , raw veggies.

The researchers indicate that meat eating helped evolve our brain physically, and also contributed to the evolution of society because of the requirement for cooperation in hunting.

Undoubtedly it did, at the time, as the new 3D humans evolved, having been 2D animals hitherto.

The question NOW is:

As we evolve to 4D, what will help us NOW?

I think if we live with harmony and understanding, we will help bring in 4D...it's the density of understanding, compassion, love harmony all those things as you know. That's why we are here as part of Gaia's body, to help her make the transition by raising the vibes through how we live our lives. Gaia is evolving...right now animals prey on one another, humans prey on animals. That will change eventually I believe. It is all her. We are all her.

But it's different for everybody, each has special gifts to bring and offer, mine are different than yours.

[yossarian]

First of all, I'm not mad. I'm just writing in an animated fashion. Call it "passion" if you like. Second of all, I wasn't really responding to you with my post, but more so to Pickle. But be as that may...

Absolutely.

No freakin way. I don't believe it. Your own quotes and Pickle's are *maybe* debatable, but not yossarian's. No way. Those quotes clearly indicate that everybody should be a fruitarian. A fruitarian!

There was a guy in naturopathic school I knew who was a fruitarian. He was very tall, with a sallow complexion, brittle nails, and sunken in eyes. He liked to go around telling everybody how fruitarianism was the "one true way". He graduated, and became a doctor. A doctor. Advising others with severe illnesses how to eat.

He got stomach cancer. I can only wonder how his patients held up under his "expert advice".

Beyond that- they are in the very beginning of the thread... so I think those are the types of comments most people are responding to when they come into this thread. As I was.

Actually, I am growing weary of this marathon thread.

Monica- I truly mean this as a service and not a personal "attack" but I have noticed that you have a tendency to get "weary" or "tired" in a thread whenever a point is brought up that demonstrates a glaring contradiction in your words. Just an observation to ponder as you will.

Beyond this- you have stated multiple times in this thread that you are just "trying to understand" how a spiritually-inclined person can reconcile meat eating with their beliefs. I have seen very intelligent and well-thought out replies by multiple people, including (but not limited to) Ali Quadir, wintersun, fairyfarmgirl, Richard, irpsit, Whitefeather, Lorna, thefool, litllady, Bring4th_GLB, Bring4th_Aaron, Bring4th_Steve, Pablísimo, Meerie, Namaste, @ndy, transiten, kycahi, abridgetoofar, TheEternal, and myself.

Each of these people has offered very thoughtful and genuine replies. Yet- you appear just as "confused" as you were three years ago. My apologies- I mean no offense- but this causes me to be a bit incredulous about your stated desire "to understand" where others are coming from. Seems to me that you have already decided that a spiritually-inclined person eating meat is "not understandable" to you, no matter what they say.

Sorry, but I am calling BS. I don't think you really want to understand this.

I wasnt a fruitarian. I ate veggies, nuts, and seeds as well. I thought you said that each person has their own special dietary needs, but now you're saying fruitarians are unhealthy?

For me, raw food veganism was an ethical modification to the Paleolithic diet.

[Shemaya]

If we eliminate the problem at its root - the meat industry - the bulk of it would be eliminated.

Completely agree....and I think that is where the activism effort is best directed right at the meat industry. And in supporting sustainable farming by buying food from small local farmers. But doing those things does not require that a person be vegetarian.

Trying to convince people to become vegetarian is not the best use of energy needed to make the changes, imo.

Have you read Michael Pollan's work? He writes about Polyface farm in VA...really great ideas come out of that farm.
Polyface Farm

[Monica]

Trying to convince people to become vegetarian is not the best use of energy needed to make the changes, imo.

I don't go around trying to convince people to become vegetarians. That would be a colossal waste of time.

Have you read Michael Pollan's work?

No, but from what I read of what you linked to, it looks like a positive step in the right direction.

He writes about Polyface farm in VA...really great ideas come out of that farm.
Polyface Farm

From the link you posted:

Salatin is quoted in the book The Omnivore's Dilemma (p.331) as justifying the killing of non-human animals because "people have a soul, animals don't."

I see this mentality as part of the problem.

[Tenet Nosce]

I wasnt a fruitarian. I ate veggies, nuts, and seeds as well. I thought you said that each person has their own special dietary needs, but now you're saying fruitarians are unhealthy?

For me, raw food veganism was an ethical modification to the Paleolithic diet.

Thanks for clarifying, and my apologies if I misrepresented your views. I see now you were recommending a high-fruit raw vegan diet. However, my reaction to them hasn't changed. Instead of simply sharing what worked for you, or rather what you thought was working for you, the reply you gave way back in the beginning of the thread implies that you are speaking from some sort of expertise. It is matter-of-fact. And there are certain elements of it which I thought were (and still think are) potentially harmful advice. In particular- where you claim that 25 grams of protein is all the body needs to function in a day. It's just not something that I will stand for if I happen to come across it.

Do you know that an obese person could get severely ill, or even die from eating that little protein, for any extended period of time? Especially if they were exercising hard to try and lose weight.

Also- nuts are optional? Then tell me- where does a raw vegan get the essential fatty acids the body requires for their neurological and immune systems to function properly? Do you know that the body could develop severe neurological and inflammatory disorders if the diet becomes that omega-3 deficient? Did that factor into your post anywhere? Or were you just parroting what you heard from a food guru as if it were "God's Word" on diet?

Sorry to single you out- I am certainly not judging you as a person based on a single post of yours from three years ago- but that particular post is representative of a certain kind of conversation that I happen to feel is a gross disservice to humanity. I would have reacted the same if you were promoting Atkins as right for every body, or South Beach as right for every body.

It is not so much the raw veganism that I am opposed to as the "right for every body" tone. In another thread you recently lamented about mindless followers of guru-types, and used DW as an example. Well... this is one mechanism by which the mindless following occurs... because people feel it is appropriate to speak authoritatively on a subject in this way- and the "crowd" is more wiling to follow whomever speaks with the most conviction, rather than the most information.

Can you see how these are connected?

We've got people like DW out there speaking authoritatively on a subject that is completely beyond his scope and expertise. Source field theories and Disclosure are his purview... but telling everybody how to eat? I don't think so, and especially when every other blog post talks about some or another illness he perhaps should think twice about whether he has been fed some BS about diet, and is now spreading that BS around to his "followers".

To my view- this type of activity carries orders of magnitude more karmic weight than does meat eating.

I understand you have changed your views since then, and have re-incorporated meat eating. As I said back in that other post- I am actually curious to understand what goes on in a person's mind when they are so sure about one thing, and later come back around to the opposite. Are you so sure about your diet now, as you were then?

How do you feel now about having broadcasted to the world that raw vegan was the "best way" and that nobody should eat apples?

[Monica]

Do you know that an obese person could get severely ill, or even die from eating that little protein, for any extended period of time?

Do you know that an obese person could get severely ill, or even die from continuing to eat hamburgers, for any extended period of time?

[Tenet Nosce]

Do you know that an obese person could get severely ill, or even die from eating that little protein, for any extended period of time?

Do you know that an obese person could get severely ill, or even die from continuing to eat hamburgers, for any extended period of time?

I'm not telling everybody that eating hamburgers every day is the "one true way" for health. Obviously. I would invite you to allow somebody else answer for themselves before you attempt to manage the conversation. I thought you were "done" with this thread. Perhaps the reason you feel "attacked" is connected to your perception that others are in need of "defense" by you.

[Monica]

I thought you were "done" with this thread.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Sickly vegan children

Perhaps the reason you feel "attacked" is connected to your perception that others are in need of "defense" by you.

The only person I defended was Carla. Anyone can answer any post. I was just curious whether you feel the same sense of indignation at the people who said it was ok for "everyone" to keep eating hamburgers, as you did at yossarian for expressing his enthusiasm for his new diet at the time.

Since you seem to have so much indignation towards the vegan diet, I'm also curious whether you are involved in any activism to educate people about the many hundreds (thousands?) of fad diets out there, many of which 'could' be dangerous for 'some' people.

As for defending others, sorry, but no I don't like to see people getting singled out. Yossarian bared his soul and shared with us how difficult it's been for him. I feel immense respect and admiration for him for coming forward like that.

I think it's confrontational, what you said to him. What you said to me too, for that matter, but I can let it slide off me. I don't like seeing it done to others, especially right after they bared their soul.

It's just mean.

[Shemaya]

Trying to convince people to become vegetarian is not the best use of energy needed to make the changes, imo.

I don't go around trying to convince people to become vegetarians. That would be a colossal waste of time.

I agree. But there is pretty extensive debate here in this thread, so it appears otherwise.

He writes about Polyface farm in VA...really great ideas come out of that farm.
Polyface Farm

From the link you posted:

Salatin is quoted in the book The Omnivore's Dilemma (p.331) as justifying the killing of non-human animals because "people have a soul, animals don't."

I see this mentality as part of the problem.

Yes, from what I read he is a Christian. Coming from a Christian background, the belief is that God put everything on earth for Man to have dominion over. That's probably the mindset Salatin comes from. Christians also believe that God desires us to be good stewards of the earth. That is probably what motivates him to farm sustainably as he does.

Someone who is awakened and freed themselves from Christian doctrine would have a different perspective. My personal perspective, and trust me it has taken me years to break out of that belief system....(I started out catholic and became a "born-again" Christian )...my personal perspective is that we are all part of this planetary sphere, our bodies are part of her body.

As far as souls of animals, I really don't know. I have heard that animals have more of a group soul rather than individual, but i really don't know.

I would agree also that the patriarchal Christian religion is part of the problem, because some of the ideas and beliefs have been detrimental not only to animals, but to women, indigenous cultures, and the entire continent of Africa to name a few.

[Monica]

I agree. But there is pretty extensive debate here in this thread, so it appears otherwise.

This is a discussion forum. The purpose is to discuss.

As I've said countless times in this thread, no one is being forced to read this thread. Everyone is here voluntarily.

That's quite different from going up to someone at the grocery store and telling them not to buy that meat in their shopping cart.

As far as souls of animals, I really don't know. I have heard that animals have more of a group soul rather than individual, but i really don't know.

This has been extensively discussed in this thread.