In regards to eating meat

[Tenet Nosce]

Zhang XM, et al. (1988) "Mutagenic and carcinogenic heterocyclic amines in Chinese cooked foods." Mutat Res, vol. 201, no. 1 (Sept. 1), pp. 181-188.

Seems like there is always some guy named Zhang at the end of these citations. Thanks for the list!

[BrownEye]

Disclaimer: I don't agree with all of this. I certainly don't think a glass of wine is detrimental to the soul. And as I said, I don't take the Bible as authoritative anyway, so I find this all irrelevant. But interesting to those who wish to use the Bible to back up their conclusions.

You know how they used to call alcohol "spirits"? A glass that does not effect you is like eating fermented fruit, while using it for inebriation is more along the lines of letting your spirit leave while another watches house, so to speak. So, depending on your views of what is "us", what parts(subtle bodies) are important, and what your awareness is of other forms that can influence you, push you out, take over, etc, it can be important.

I assume you have seen folks speak in a different accent after drinking? I have a lot of experience with possession. This is why a guy might beat his wife (not me) and deny it ever happened, with a clean conscience.

[Tenet Nosce]

I wonder if the health-giving properties of live plant foods really are because of the enzymes (as some raw foodists suggest) or because of something less tangible...the lifeforce itself.

I know that the levels of some nutrients are higher, but I've always wondered if it is really enough to make that much of a difference.

In the Taoist system this life force is what they call chi or qi. It can come from food, water, air, or even sunlight. The chi mixes in the body and becomes materialized as the blood and body fluids.

So a lipase supplement would help digest fat that is consumed, but not the stored fat in the body? Can you elaborate?

Well there is a barrier that is formed between the gut and the body by certain cells called epithelial cells. They are bound together by what are known as "tight junctions". As you can imagine, they are pretty tight! They are like spot welds between cells and are about 3.5 nanometers across.

So basically "stuff" going from the blue side to the pink side needs to get past the tight junction. This might be a nutrient, a toxin, or even a microorganism. Now an enzyme like lipase is actually quite large, as molecules go. There are actually all different kinds of lipases ranging from around 25 to 65 kilodaltons. But remember... there are innumerable types of enzymes that aren't digestive enzymes. They do other things in the body.

Typically, enzymes don't make it past the gap junctions. Which is a good thing, otherwise when the digestive organs released them into the gut lumen, they would just get reabsorbed into the body instead of digesting our food. Actually, the whole point of digestive enzymes is to break down the food to the point where it is small enough to make it past the gap junctions. Or to simply release nutrients into the lumen which are already small enough to pass, but were trapped inside larger structures that needed to be destroyed by the enzymes.

Incidentally, if one were to drink massive amounts of plain distilled water, the shift in osmotic pressure could cause nutrients to pass the other way through the gap junctions- from the pink side to the blue side- and that is probably not that great of a thing either.

Inflammation in the gut causes these cells to swell up and is caused by three things: injury, allergy, or attack. When chronic inflammation happens then the gap junctions start to widen. If they get big enough all sorts of garbage can start getting into the body that normally wouldn't let pass.

Also, toxins dumped out by the liver just start to reabsorbed and recirculated. Not to mention bacteria, yeast, and worms which can gain direct access to the blood. This is not a good thing.

But even if the lipase could get in, the first place it would go is the liver, since that is where the blood flow from the digestive tract leads. The liver is the body's basic sentinel system and it is kind of designed to quarantine and eliminate anything that is bigger than a particular size.

I imagine any lipase that made it that far would either be further broken down, or excreted back out in the bile. It would never make it to the fat cells in the belly. Fat cells in the belly use lipase to break down fat stores... but that lipase needs to be manufactured inside the cell.

Enzymes are expressed from the inside out, not the outside in. :idea:

Yes, it can help to take digestive enzymes to help with the digestion of food if the body is not making its own... and yes some of these are already inside the cells of the foods themselves. And yes they are destroyed by heat and light.

But in that respect, a sun oven would do just as much damage to those enzymes as a gas burner. I think that Essene bread recipe might be hinting at some other energy source coming from the Sun. I am reminded of lembas bread.

Not so many fat vegans.

I've seen them. Believe it or not. But that was my point... if eating dead food made the body fat, then why didn't I gain any weight during that time when I was hardly eating any live food?

No? I think it's rather intriguing and warrants further investigation into why that is.

It is intriguing... just not a cohesive argument for anything!

[BrownEye]

I imagine any lipase that made it that far would either be further broken down, or excreted back out in the bile. It would never make it to the fat cells in the belly. Fat cells in the belly use lipase to break down fat stores... but that lipase needs to be manufactured inside the cell.

Enzymes are expressed from the inside out, not the outside in.

LIPASE and the FAT METABOLISM

Internal lipase deficiency may develop when more lipase is needed for fat digestion and absorption than can be produced in the pancreas. Then lipase is taken from the internal lipase store to prop up the pancreas. Actually, lipase is recycled similar to bile. For the purpose of fat digestion bile and lipase are released, but unused amounts of each are reabsorbed in the lower parts of the small intestines, and re-supplied to the liver and pancreas through the blood and lymph circulation. Internal lipase deficiency arises when we habitually eat food low in lipase. Then the body has difficulties reabsorbing and generating enough lipase as we get older, and we develop age-related degenerative body changes.


.......................

The problem is this: the less fat there is in a meal, the faster it is released from the stomach into the small intestine. Unlike fats, carbohydrates are easily and rapidly absorbed. This can lead to damaging high blood sugar levels. To prevent this, the pancreas releases large amounts of insulin. This helps glucose to enter cells more quickly but if you are not doing hard work or exercise at the time, the excess glucose is either converted to lactic acid, thereby causing overacidity and mineral deficiency, or the glucose is converted to fat (mainly in the liver).

Fat is then stored in fat cells. When the blood sugar level drops, this stored fat can now be used to generate energy – but only if you have sufficient internal lipase. If lipase is deficient, fat remains in the fat cells and you feel hungry again, having another carbohydrate meal with a replay of the same story. After several years of repeating this cycle with habitually elevated blood sugar levels, diabetes may be diagnosed.
....................

Many fat-containing foods also supply lipase for proper digestion of the fat. However, enzymes are destroyed at 118 degrees F. Therefore, cooked foods typically don't supply the enzymes required for proper digestion

Fat is digested more efficiently when it is exposed to the lipase found in food. This is because the type of lipase in food works in an acidic environment like the stomach.

Yes, it can help to take digestive enzymes to help with the digestion of food if the body is not making its own... and yes some of these are already inside the cells of the foods themselves. And yes they are destroyed by heat and light.

Your disclaimer stating that you are not actually refuting anything? Does it matter if it does not directly attack stored fat cells when the point is to stop storing fat? As far as I can tell, if it does not directly attack fat stores, it has the same effect indirectly.

[Diana]

Not only did he show up- but he declared that he was never eating McDonald's again! So based on my experience, that is what works.

Awesome

---

Yes, it can help to take digestive enzymes to help with the digestion of food if the body is not making its own... and yes some of these are already inside the cells of the foods themselves. And yes they are destroyed by heat and light.

But in that respect, a sun oven would do just as much damage to those enzymes as a gas burner. I think that Essene bread recipe might be hinting at some other energy source coming from the Sun. I am reminded of lembas bread.

Sun ovens, I believe, are alternative ways to cook food. Raw food recipes that mimic "cooking" use food dehydration. I don't consider Essene beard raw or live. However, there is a wonderful bread called Manna (found in the freezer section of natural grocery stores), that is more like a fruit bread in consistency, which is considered live or raw.

[_X7]

There is too much to keep up with here, but the depth of discussion and the balancing of views is always inviting to come back. Thanks all! I'm less concerned about the enzymic aspects than many other other aspects. Indeed less cooked food has always appealed to me and the slightest bit of pan browning always annoys me. Since wood oven cooking is my heat source in the winter, it is noticeable that even 150ºf or so (?) actually can cook even beans for me since these don't bother me in the least, (even without presoaking). Low heat all day seems to do it well which also explains how a huge part of humanity can cook beans at all. Anti inflammatory foods and spices are a high priority for me... Having a very large assortment of foods is also key, for me. Be ready before 'they' literally ban super foods or omega3 bearing foods (to boost profits and such). Amazing the sneaking legislation riding through as we thread along here.

[Tenet Nosce]

Here is an excerpt from one of the nutrition books I used in school. This is long. I am not posting this simply to be wry. I see that several people in various ways have expressed a keen interest in the topics of digestive enzymes, lipase, and fat metabolism.

Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism - 3rd ed

Chapter 6 - Lipids - Digestion

Because fats are hydrophobic, their digestion poses a special problem because their digestive enzymes, like all proteins, are hydrophobic, and normally function in an aqueous environment. However, the surface area of dietary lipid, targeted for digestion, is greatly enhanced by a very efficient emulsification process mediated mainly by the bile salts. Consequently, accessibility of the fat to digestive enzymes is greatly increased by bile salt action.

Triacylglycerols, phospholipids (Primarily phosphatidylcholine) and sterols (mainly cholesterol) provide the lipid component of the typical Western diet. Of these, triacylglycerols, customarily called fats, are by far the major contributor with a consumption rate of about 150 g daily on average. Digestive enzymes involved in the breakdown of dietary lipids in the gastrointestinal tranct are esterases that cleave the ester bonds within triacylglycerols (lipase), phospholipids (phosopholipases), and cholesterol esters (cholesterol esterase).

Most dietary triacylglycerol digestion is completed in the lumen of the small intestine, although the process actually begins in the stomach. Digestive activity at these two sites is attributed to the two different forms of lipases: (1) lingual lipase, secreted by the serous glands lying beneath the tongue, and (2) pancreatic lipase. Basal secretion of lingual lipase apparently occurs continuously but can be stimulated by neural (sympathetic agonists), dietary (high fat), and mechanical (sucking and swallowing) factors. Lingual lipase accounts for the limited digestion of fat in the stomach, made possible by the enzyme's particularly high stability at the low pH of the gastric juices. It can readily penetrate milk fat globules without substrate stabilization by bile salts, a feature that makes it particularly important for fat digestion in the suckling infant, whose pancreatic function may not be fully developed. Lingual lipases act preferentially on triacylglycerols containing medium- and short-chain length fatty acids. It preferentially hydrolyzes fatty acids at the sn-3 position. Short- and medium-length fatty acids are metabolizes more directly than long chain fatty acids.

For dietary fat in the stomach to be hydrolyzed by lingual lipase, some degree of emulsification must occur to expose sufficient surface area of the substrate. Muscle contractions of the stomach, and the squirting of the fat through a partially opened pyloric sphincter,m produce shear forces sufficient for emulsification. Also, potential emulsifiers in the acid milieu of the stomach include complex polysaccharides, phospholipids, and peptic digests of dietary proteins. However, quantitative hydrolysis and absorption, especially of the long-chain fatty acids, require less acidity, appropriate lipases, more effective emulsifying agents (bile salts), and specialized absorptive cells. These conditions are provided in the lumen of the upper small intestine. The presence of undigested lipid in the stomach delays the rate of emptying of the stomach contents, presumably by way of the hormone enterogastrone, which inhibits gastric motility. Fats therefore have a “high satiety value”.

The partially hydrolyzed lipid emulsion leaves the stomach and enters the duodenum as fine lipid droplets. Effective emulsification takes place because as mechanical shearing continues, it is complemented by bile that is released from the gallbladder as a result of stimulation by the hormone cholecystokinin (CCK). Bicarbonate is simultaneously released from the pancreas, elevating the pH to a level suitable for pancreatic lipase activity. In combination with triacylglycerol breakdown products, bile salts are excellent emulsifying agents. Their emulsifying effectiveness is due to their amphipathic properties- that is, their possessing both hydrophilic and hydrophobic “ends.” Such molecules tend to arrange themselves on the surface of small fat particles with their hydrophobic ends turned inward and hydrophilic regions outward toward the water phase. This chemical action, together with the help of peristaltic agitation, converts the fat into small droplets with a greatly increased surface area. These particles can then be readily acted on by pancreatic lipase.

Pancreatic lipase activation is complex, requiring the participation of the protein colipase, calcium ions, and bile salts. Colipase is formed by the hydrolytic activation by trypsin of procolipase, also of pancreatic origin. It contains approximately 100 amino acid residues and possesses distinctly hydrophobnic regions that are believed to act as lipid-biding sites. Colipase has been shown to associate strongly with pancreatic lipase and therefore may act as an anchor, or linking point, for attachment of the enzyme to the bile salt-stabilized micelles described later.

The action of pancreatic lipase on ingested triacylglycerols results in a complex mixture of diacyleglycerols, monoacylglycerols, and free fatty acids. Its specificity is primarily toward sn-1-linked fatty acids ans secondarily to sn-3 bonds. Therefore, the main path of this digestion progresses from triacylglycerols to 2,3-diacylglycerols to 2-monoacylglycerols. Only a small percentage of the triacylglycerols is hydrolyzed totally to free glycerol. That which does occur probably follows the isomerization of the 2-monoacylglycerol to the 1-monoacylglycerol, which is then hydrolyzed. Esterified cholesterol, meanwhile, undergoes hydrolysis to free cholesterol and a fatty acid, catalyzed by the enzyme cholesterol esterase. The C-2 fatty acid of lecithin is hydrolytically removed by a specific esterase called phospholkipase A2, producing lysolecithin and still another free fatty acid.

The products of the partial digestion of lipids, primarily 2-monoacylglycerols, lysolecithin, cholesterol, and fatty acids, combine with bile salts, forming negatively charged polymolectular aggregates called micelles. These have a much smaller diameter (~5 nm) than the unhydrolyzed precursor particles, allowing them access to the intramicrovillus spaces (50-100) nm of the intestinal membrane.

[Diana]

Thanks Tenet, for the lipase info. It is my understanding, as in a lot of the sciences, that we can observe and measure and record, but not really know much about something like metabolism. Just as we can perform the double-slit experiment and not know what it means (beyond speculation).

It seems to me, that in the specific issue of weight and fat, there may be so much more at play. Even from a purely physical standpoint, humans have the ancient mandate to store fat because at one time it was necessary for us to do so (I guess that may in part explain the fast-food burgers!). And there is the concept that a person may put on fat for "protection." Not that the person would consciously choose the weight, but may create it from the feeling that she/he needed a barrier perhaps, between her/himself and the world or a person (example: teen girl being molested by father).

Just thinking out loud here .

[Monica]

Here is an excerpt from one of the nutrition books I used in school. This is long. I am not posting this simply to be wry. I see that several people in various ways have expressed a keen interest in the topics of digestive enzymes, lipase, and fat metabolism.

I like to cross-reference established info with cutting-edge, unproven info, because I usually find truth in both camps.

For example, it's a given that the colon functions in the capacity of eliminating waste. But conventional MDs often speak as though the idea of doing a colon cleanse is totally unnecessary, because "that is the function of the colon...it already does this so any additional cleansing isn't necessary."

But what they're missing is that the established function of an organ doesn't mean everyone's organs work the way they are supposed to. Look at how diabetics' pancreases aren't working properly, or any number of other examples.

Thus, the alternative health community's views on cleansing the colon are very reasonable, in light of the fact that many people's colons have become clogged and aren't functioning as they should.

In the process of offering solutions, the alternative community might pose theories that haven't yet been 'proven' by the scientific community. That doesn't make them false. It just means that further research is warranted.

And, it's important to remember that the drug companies fund the research and write the textbooks.

I'm not saying that what you posted is false. I'm just suggesting that it not be taken as 'canon' and that it be cross-referenced with cutting-edge pioneers like Viktoras Kulvinskas, Gabriel Cousens and the like.

I don't think established, conventional textbook definitions of anything are automatically, irrefutably 'truth' or 'fact.'

[Diana]

Everything Monica said above makes sense to me. Once again, holding that anything is the final word on the subject is ill-advised. We are always expanding our knowledge base.

As to colon cleansing, let me take the thread back to meat-eating. Meat and dairy products are the biggest reasons to do one.

[BrownEye]

it already does this so any additional cleansing isn't necessary."

Funny how this can be promoted. It is the exact same circular reasoning used by religious groups.

[Diana]

it already does this so any additional cleansing isn't necessary."

Funny how this can be promoted. It is the exact same circular reasoning used by religious groups.

Quite a few members mentioned that taking a rigid stance does not serve anybody . . . this is an example. Science, because of its empirical nature, tends to always project that its findings are "the truth."

I can attest to the benefits of doing a colon cleanse, one that also cleans the ducts. My first one was in my 20's and I did the Robert Gray cleanse. I recommend colon cleansing to everyone who wishes to optimize their health.

[Tenet Nosce]

1. Your average MD would never even see a textbook like this, as they have hardly any training in nutrition, whatsoever. I think this is a really good textbook, though I guess I can't really expect anybody else to take my word for it. Based on some responses to my posts, I can see that I haven't really much credibility on this forum.

2. Without going into further nauseating detail on physiology... there is a deep chasm of failed logic that gets invoked when one says eating cooked food depletes lipase within fat cells. I don't know how to convey this any more directly... but the thought process involved there tells me that the person actually doesn't have a firm understanding of physiology to begin with. So how somebody could consider them an "expert" I don't know. An expert, when offering information that contradicts the consensus knowledge base, will actually offer an explanation about that.

3. The argumentation offered above is different than simply alternative view. It would actually overturn some very basic fundamental knowledge about human physiology. The conclusions actually contradict the "scientific" premises upon which they are based. Not to mention that it is just not deductively sound. Even if the conclusions were true, the logical pathway they used to get there is fallacious in many respects. This isn't about me trying to defend the mainstream view this is about offering bunk arguments to counter the mainstream view. That's two different things.

4. The responsible thing for gurus and alternative practitioners to do would be to communicate with soft qualifiers... this may be the case... this possibly affects this... but we don't really know... and so on. I think the problem with this approach for certain people is they feel it doesn't pack enough "punch". So in their minds they would rather twist or dumb-down the truth so as to be more "impactful" i.e. attract more clients and increase their sales. Or they are just stuck in absolutist thinking themselves.

5. Good intentions do not negate bad medical advice. While some people may in fact benefit from taking digestive enzymes... and certainly increasing one's intake of live food is going to be of benefit in general... when the situation is oversimplified it is actually a disservice, because it may cause a person to become sidetracked for years (as Monica described) or actually cause them harm.

6. I find the logic offered above similar to the notion that every disease is caused by "parasites" or "yeast". We actually have real tests to check for these things... not just muscle testing and other intuitive methods. I see people all the time whose natural practitioner or guru swore up and down they had parasites or yeast, when it turned out to be a bacterial issue. I have also actually found parasites when I didn't expect to find any at all. Now- I hardly blame the individual who accepts misdirection from a practitioner... but what does this say for the practitioner when they don't offer actual lab tests that can back up their "diagnosis", when they exist and are available? I just see that as irresponsible.

7. Regarding colon hydrotherapy, my biggest concern is that is clears out the good stuff along with the bad. By good stuff I mean beneficial gut microbes. I observe many colon hydrotherapists don't even suggest a probiotic formula to their clients...?? Also, sorry but if somebody needs to get their colon blown out 2 - 3 times a week for a year, that tells me the treatment isn't working. Once every few months is a different thing.

8. In my experience, I have found health to have much more to do with getting the right stuff in, rather than getting the wrong stuff out. This is the crux of my argument against anything which places undue focus on fasting, "detoxing", and strict taboos on certain substances. Think about it. What kind of thought process is this approach based on? Negating a negative? That kind of thing doesn't usually work out too well. This is not to say there is no benefit whatsoever to these things, so please, don't go there. It is about the thought process involved.

[Monica]

1. Your average MD would never even see a textbook like this, as they have hardly any training in nutrition, whatsoever.

Very true. Most MDs have almost zero training in nutrition. Which is crazy. It's like a mechanic not knowing how to change the oil in a car. But then, medical schools are funded by the drug companies.

But there are mainstream dieticians, who have wildly differing views when compared to holistic practitioners. I'm assuming such a textbook is accepted by mainstream dieticians?

I think this is a really good textbook, though I guess I can't really expect anybody else to take my word for it.

I take your word for it. My point is just that the field of metabolism still has a lot of unanswered questions, and any textbook might not be up-to-date on all the clinical research.

And that's not even taking into consideration any possibility of mutation due to spiritual evolution.

Based on some responses to my posts, I can see that I haven't really much credibility on this forum.

I wouldn't say that. Personally, I respect your training and experience!

It might help to remember that this forum is populated by people who generally don't accept anyone as authorities on anything. Remember, most of us have shed the shackles of mainstream religion. Many have shed the shackles of mainstream medicine too.

NOT saying you're mainstream! I know you're an ND. I'm just suggesting that the lack of instant trust in your views based on your medical training not be construed as a lack of respect for you as a person or as a practitioner.

Remember, a highly credentialed RN/nutritionist is the one who got me addicted to excessive cleansing and drinking distilled water, which almost killed me!

To this day, since I encounter a lot of practitioners, I still come across highly credentialed people who recommend distilled water, as well as others who are horrified that anyone would still recommend it!

I meet highly credentialed practitioners who advocate heavy meat diets, while others advocate plant-based diets.

Even among the so-called 'experts' there is a wide variety of opinion about many aspects of health. Highly intelligent, highly trained people often disagree.

So please understand that it's nothing personally directed at you, if some members of this forum question some things that might seem 'fact' to you.

3. The argumentation offered above is different than simply alternative view. It would actually overturn everything we know about human physiology. The conclusions actually contradict the "scientific" premises upon which they are based. Not to mention that it is just not deductively sound. Even if the conclusions were true, the logical pathway they used to get there is fallacious in many respects. This isn't about me trying to defend the mainstream view this is about offering bunk arguments to counter the mainstream view. That's two different things.

I understand your point, and you might even be right in this particular case. I don't know enough about lipase to have an opinion.

I am curious, though, what you thought of Viktoras' views on enzymes? As I said, I haven't watched that particular lecture, but I have heard him lecture numerous times before, and as I recall, he did back up a lot of what he said with references to research.

Recently, one of the doctors (an ND) who bought a water machine from me, explained that when the body is too acidic, the areas of the body that are actually supposed to be acidic (stomach, vagina for example) have the reverse effect and are too alkaline. So those with acid reflux and poor digestion actually have stomachs that are too alkaline. When their body's overall pH is brought into a slightly alkaline balance, guess what, the stomach gets more acidic and, if female, the vagina gets more acidic.

I found this to explain my own experiences with improved digestion and relief from previously chronic female problems. And, incidentally, taking enzyme supplements had never really helped me in any way that I could tell. But now, if I take enzyme supplements, I end up burping them up and get a bit of acid reflux! I don't know quite what to make of that! but have concluded that maybe now my stomach acid is what it's supposed to be, and maybe I don't need them anymore...?

I think that, just as with nutrients from food vs artificial vitamin supplements, maybe there's a difference between enzyme supplements vs naturally occurring enzymes from living foods.

So what I do now is eat more raw, live foods. And if I do have a cooked meal, I try to always have a glass of veggie juice with it. So I'm getting the enzymes but in food form instead of supplement form.

4. The responsible thing for gurus and alternative practitioners to do would be to communicate with soft qualifiers... this may be the case... this possibly affects this... but we don't really know... and so on. I think the problem with this approach for certain people is they feel it doesn't pack enough "punch". So in their minds they would rather twist or dumb-down the truth so as to be more "impactful" i.e. attract more clients and increase their sales. Or they are just stuck in absolutist thinking themselves.

I agree with you here. We've all seen those books that say the cure for ALL disease is xyz...whether it's candida, parasites, removing dental fillings, abstaining from xyz food, or whatever. I find that oversimplistic. There is no one-size-fits-all in that sense.

6. I find the logic offered above similar to the notion that every disease is caused by "parasites" or "yeast". We actually have real tests to check for these things... not just muscle testing and other intuitive methods. I see people all the time whose natural practitioner or guru swore up and down they had parasites or yeast, when it turned out to be a bacterial issue. I have also actually found parasites when I didn't expect to find any at all. Now- I hardly blame the individual who accepts misdirection from a practitioner... but what does this say for the practitioner when they don't offer actual lab tests that can back up their diagnosis, when they exist and are available? I just see that as irresponsible.

I see your point here. I seem to remember hearing something about "mainstream lab tests don't show systemic candida infections" or something like that. Does the mainstream even recognize candida at all though? I thought they didn't...?

Hey speaking of parasites did you hear about that tapeworm therapy? I actually met a woman who paid $7k to have tapeworm eggs injected into her body! CREEPY!!!

7. Regarding colon hydrotherapy, my biggest concern is that is clears out the good stuff along with the bad.

Been there done that.

By good stuff I mean beneficial gut microbes. I observe many colon hydrotherapists don't even suggest a probiotic formula to their clients...??

You're kidding! How irresponsible is that!!!

Also, sorry but if somebody needs to get their colon blown out 2 - 3 times a week for a year, that tells me the treatment isn't working. Once every few months is a different thing.

Either that or the colon therapist is greedy and wants them coming back to pay more $$. That's what happened to me! As I was telling you, I was 21 and 97 lbs...and squeaky clean! But she kept telling me I was still 'toxic.' (Ugh but I'm not bitter! I HAVE forgiven her! I have! )

I think colon cleansing is a very valuable and important tool for someone transitioning from the SAD diet to a healthy diet. It can speed up the process of detox drastically.

But, a couple times a week for a few weeks maybe, in conjunction with juicing etc. After that, it shouldn't be needed anymore if the diet stays clean.

8. In my experience, I have found health to have much more to do with getting the right stuff in, rather than getting the wrong stuff out.

Oh I'd have to say, both are important. But if the person focuses on just getting the right stuff in, the bad stuff will eventually come out. It'll just take a lot longer. Rapid detox might make the difference between living or dying for some people, especially those with cancer. They might really need to detox fast.

[Diana]

7. Regarding colon hydrotherapy, my biggest concern is that is clears out the good stuff along with the bad. By good stuff I mean beneficial gut microbes. I observe many colon hydrotherapists don't even suggest a probiotic formula to their clients...?? Also, sorry but if somebody needs to get their colon blown out 2 - 3 times a week for a year, that tells me the treatment isn't working. Once every few months is a different thing.

8. In my experience, I have found health to have much more to do with getting the right stuff in, rather than getting the wrong stuff out. This is the crux of my argument against anything which places undue focus on fasting, "detoxing", and strict taboos on certain substances. Think about it. What kind of thought process is this approach based on? Negating a negative? That kind of thing doesn't usually work out too well. This is not to say there is no benefit whatsoever to these things, so please, don't go there. It is about the thought process involved.

As to the efficacy of what you say about testing, and not following a "guru," that makes sense to me.

My response to:

7. I wasn't referring to a colon irrigation, or "high colonic." I was referring to a gentle, slow cleansing using herbs and psyllium to clear out the digestive tract. I certainly would not propose one did this, or would need to, a few times a year. I have done it approximately once in ten years. Of course you replenish with probiotics and healthy food afterwards.

8. We all eat junk at some points. We breathe polluted air and drink questionable water. So, an occasional cleaning out might be a good thing. And what's wrong with detoxing? Our bodies do it by sweating, the lymph system. And there is the idea that when we are instigating the cleanse on a physical level (which sets intention); might it not follow that we cleanse on other levels as well?

I agree that what you put into your body is the prime concern; hence this thread about eating meat.

I see your concerns as a wellness practitioner (you are an ND?) and they are valid. But not everybody is a fanatic about things, and not everybody obsesses. I consider myself a pretty balance individual (except that I probably work too much ), and when I consider my health and what to do about it, I do it with discernment, research, and logic, aside from whatever intuitive messages I've gotten.

---

Based on some responses to my posts, I can see that I haven't really much credibility on this forum.

I wouldn't say that. Personally, I respect your training and experience!

It might help to remember that this forum is populated by people who generally don't accept anyone as authorities on anything. Remember, most of us have shed the shackles of mainstream religion. Many have shed the shackles of mainstream medicine too.


So please understand that it's nothing personally directed at you, if some members of this forum question some things that might seem 'fact' to you.

I agree with Monica .

Isn't part of our awakening thinking for ourselves, and discerning for ourselves? It doesn't matter who or what tells me something, I always research myself and make up my own mind . Please don't take it personally.

[fr33d0m]

Fee free to eat anything that resonates with the harmony of your being. If I had a choice between plants and animals before me on a table, I would eat the plants because they feel less dense energetically. But if the plants were rotten/radioactive/etc and the deer was glowing with holiness, I would go with the meat. It will usually be more subtle than that. Trust your being to discern that which is best for you in a given situation. Create no dogma or rigid rules to live by, but allow life to flow in the present moment. All is one.

[AnthroHeart]

I don't understand all the digestion science, but it seems so fascinating to me for some reason. Perhaps it's the conversion of one energy to another, to power an individual. That's pretty keen.

[Ruth]

That was so beautifully put, fr33d0m! And I completely agree! No rigid rules or dogma. Just love!

[Diana]

Fee free to eat anything that resonates with the harmony of your being. If I had a choice between plants and animals before me on a table, I would eat the plants because they feel less dense energetically. But if the plants were rotten/radioactive/etc and the deer was glowing with holiness, I would go with the meat. It will usually be more subtle than that. Trust your being to discern that which is best for you in a given situation. Create no dogma or rigid rules to live by, but allow life to flow in the present moment. All is one.

Welcome, freedom.

This all sounds lovely , and from the perspective of yourself only, it makes sense. And perhaps that's how it should be: to only be concerned with our own free will and the free will of other people. But what about animals and plants?

In order to survive at this point, we need to take some kind of life (plant and/or animal). This interferes with the plants' or animals' free will to survive. It is a complicated issue.

[Oceania]

well we can sungaze. i don't recommend it if you dunno what you're doing etc, but it is an option.

[fr33d0m]

In order to survive at this point, we need to take some kind of life (plant and/or animal). This interferes with the plants' or animals' free will to survive. It is a complicated issue.
[/quote]

Ah, I see. I have had that perspective. Make peace with whatever you eat. In the ideal, we would directly harvest our own food, plant or animal, apologize for the taking of life, ask for it, only pick the fruit that has given us permission, sing the soul of the deer home, etc. This is covered in sacred Native American teachings. If we are radiating the love of the creator, there are many loving plants and animals willing to "sacrifice" to sustain us. It can be done with love.

Before I eat something, I thank everything that went into that apple. I thank the person who put it on the shelf, drove it to the store, picked it, the tree that grew it, the sun, earth, and water that provided for it, etc. I feel the creator in me, and the creator in the apple. So me consuming the apple becomes less about taking the life of something and more about a way of sharing my energy with the apple, allowing it to become part of me in my expression of the creator, and recognizing my oneness with the apple.

I am heartened to see you perceiving plants and animals as part of the self. Allow these gifts of love, from self, to self.

All is One.

[Diana]

Ah, I see. I have had that perspective. Make peace with whatever you eat. In the ideal, we would directly harvest our own food, plant or animal, apologize for the taking of life, ask for it, only pick the fruit that has given us permission, sing the soul of the deer home, etc. This is covered in sacred Native American teachings. If we are radiating the love of the creator, there are many loving plants and animals willing to "sacrifice" to sustain us. It can be done with love.

Before I eat something, I thank everything that went into that apple. I thank the person who put it on the shelf, drove it to the store, picked it, the tree that grew it, the sun, earth, and water that provided for it, etc. I feel the creator in me, and the creator in the apple. So me consuming the apple becomes less about taking the life of something and more about a way of sharing my energy with the apple, allowing it to become part of me in my expression of the creator, and recognizing my oneness with the apple.

I am heartened to see you perceiving plants and animals as part of the self. Allow these gifts of love, from self, to self.

All is One.

This is very beautiful. I wonder if you would be willing to read the whole thread? .

I understand the Native American way, and implement that also, as many here on this site do.

As to the energy share, with an apple, yes (an apple was created to be eaten so the seeds spread). With an animal who does not want to die . . . not so sure. If you hunted the deer with this mindset, perhaps a deer would "come" who is willing to sacrifice its life or who wants to transition; but that does not negate the fact that the deer has a survival instinct and will be terrified of dying a painful death.

The Native American way is a good way with honor and respect. But it does not necessarily follow that it is the best way. Everything evolves.

[Oceania]

the apple doesn't get adrenaline. it doesn't have nerves. it doesn't even think. so no, i don't think it's bad to eat fruit. animals are like us, so is it better to eat an apple than sentient being, who knows. i know what i choose to eat. i don't judge meat eaters, i just hope one day they will stop eating meat.

---

and i hope one day i will stop eating eggs, fish and dairy.

---

or at least be able to get eggs and dairy from animals i know.

[Monica]

My response to:

7. I wasn't referring to a colon irrigation, or "high colonic." I was referring to a gentle, slow cleansing using herbs and psyllium to clear out the digestive tract. I certainly would not propose one did this, or would need to, a few times a year. I have done it approximately once in ten years. Of course you replenish with probiotics and healthy food afterwards.

My hubby and I do a juice fast with cleansing herbs and bluegreen algae, for 1-2 weeks, about once a year. We haven't done colonics in about 20 years and don't plan to ever again. I think they have value though for those who need rapid detox.

8. We all eat junk at some points. We breathe polluted air and drink questionable water. So, an occasional cleaning out might be a good thing. And what's wrong with detoxing? Our bodies do it by sweating, the lymph system. And there is the idea that when we are instigating the cleanse on a physical level (which sets intention); might it not follow that we cleanse on other levels as well?

Good points. Despite our best efforts, we can't control the air we breathe. Toxins abound.

I've found that physical detox always results in emotional and spiritual detox as well. So it's an all around good thing.

[Diana]

I've found that physical detox always results in emotional and spiritual detox as well. So it's an all around good thing.

Yes, they are all connected. And the energy can flow either way. Detox emotionally, and the physical detoxes.

[fr33d0m]

Yes, it is ideal for me to work at home, out of the city where I can feed the animals (the deer herd just came by for some carrots and apples ).
[/quote]

I am starting to get a better feel for your vibration, so I can shape my offerings accordingly. Forget my other posts.

I am getting the feeling that animals are your friends.

Friends don't eat friends. End of story.

[Monica]

I am getting the feeling that animals are your friends.

Friends don't eat friends. End of story.

That pretty much sums it up!

---

Wow oh WOW! Everyone please watch this! It's so amazing! A totally different approach and it's working!

EDIT: Disclaimer: Oceania and Whitefeather found part of this video disturbing, even though I thought it was very mild. It's 6 minutes 27 seconds. 6 minutes are amazing and 27 seconds may be disturbing. Please read post #1742 and post #1789 before watching if you get upset easily.

Why love one but eat the other?

[Oceania]

i can't watch any videos from PETA. can you gimme a summary?

[Diana]

Yes, it is ideal for me to work at home, out of the city where I can feed the animals (the deer herd just came by for some carrots and apples ).

I am starting to get a better feel for your vibration, so I can shape my offerings accordingly. Forget my other posts.

I am getting the feeling that animals are your friends.

Friends don't eat friends. End of story.

Thank you for your kind understanding. Yes, I do love animals . I love insects too. And plants . . .

I see all things as equal, no one or nothing better than anything else. I do feel that humanity has a collective responsibility for cruelty and abuse to life forms other than human, and I have a hard time imagining that the other life forms (such as cows in a slaughterhouse) agree to it.

I find the idea of human free will selfish when it comes to other life forms being used.

---

i can't watch any videos from PETA. can you gimme a summary?

I'm with you Oceania. I've donated to PETA for years, and even did some illustration for them, but I can't watch their stuff, or even look in the magazines--it's too devastating.

[Monica]

i can't watch any videos from PETA. can you gimme a summary?

Oh this is different! I know, I can't watch them either without throwing up. (Though I fully support them because atrocities must be exposed.)

But this is using a totally different approach, I promise! Please watch!

I don't think it's even from PETA. What a brilliant idea!

I just emailed my friend who is the head of our local veg society. I'm going to spearhead an effort to do this in my city! I'm so excited!