In regards to eating meat

[BrownEye]

LoL, I was about to ask him to record himself walking on water for us, being 6D and all. Maybe levitate?

[Tenet Nosce]

:exclamation: Great quotes!

Jesus

"What are the sins we must shun, that we may never more see disease?" And Jesus answered, "It was said to them of old time "Thou shalt not kill", for life is given to all by God, and that which God has given, let not man take away. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills his brother. And from him will the Earthly Mother turn away and Satan will have his dwelling in his body. And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his own tomb. He who kills, kills himself and who eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats the body of death".

full text: Essene Gospel of Peace

The Essenes were a certain reclusive sect of Christianity that was still very much steeped in the dualistic thinking of Zoroastrianism ("wickedness" and "righteousness") and the absolutism of the Jainists ("always" and "never"). This makes the text more than a little suspect to me about these being the true words of Jesus. I think he was probably a little more evolved than that?

Though I see your point... this is actually the first I have read of Jesus advocating for vegetarianism...

So eat always from the table of God: the fruits of the trees, the grain and grasses of the field, the milk of beasts, and the honey of bees.

... but apparently not veganism.

I have cast it out of you and killed it that it may never again torment you.

So killing worms (which are animals) does not appear to violate the Law. Whew! That's a relief! I thought perhaps I should allow worms to grow in my digestive tract, so as not to harm them or cut their lives short.

It is the fire which blazes outside your body, which is hotter than your blood. With that fire of death you cook your foods in your homes and in your fields. I tell you truly, it is the same fire which destroys your foods and your bodies, even as the fire of malice, which ravages your thoughts, ravages your spirits. For your body is that which you eat, and your spirit is that which you think. Eat nothing, therefore, which a stronger fire than the fire of life has killed. Wherefore, prepare and eat all fruits of trees, and all grasses of the fields, and afl milk of beasts good for eating. For all these are fed and ripened by the fire of life; all are the gift of the angels of our Earthly Mother. But eat nothing to which only the fire of death gives savor, for such is of Satan.

Wow! I guess Jesus was also a raw foodist! So not only will chicken soup kill me, but any soup will kill me! *shock and amazement* And to think all this time I thought it was about serving my fellow man... turns out it was all about soup!

I dare say, the sub-Logos sure seems to be trying to trick us or something, what with giving us fire to cook our food with and making our taste buds work the way they do. I will let the Eskimo know they should only be eating raw foods from now on, so that they may partake of Eternal Life. (Wait, don't they already have Eternal Life?)

From the coming of the month of Ijar, eat barley; from the month of Sivan, eat wheat, the most perfect among all seed-bearing herbs. And let your daily bread be made of wheat, that the Lord may take care of your bodies.

Shucks I guess gluten-sensitive people will never get to see the Kingdom of God... and Jesus' advice for the diet is to eat more wheat?! Hasn't it been scientifically demonstrated that a grain-based diet contributes to all manner of health problems?

And Jesus answered: "It was said to them of old time: "All beasts that move upon the earth, all the fish of the sea, and all the fowl of the air are given into thy power." I tell you truly, of all creatures living upon the earth, God created only man after his image. Wherefore beasts are for man, and not man for beasts. You do not, therefore, transgress the law if you kill the wild beast to save your brother's life. For I tell you truly, man is more than the beast. But he who kills the beast without a cause, though the beast attack him not, through lust for slaughter, or for its flesh, or for its hide, or yet for its tusks, evil is the deed which he does, for he is turned into a wild beast himself. Wherefore is his end also as the end of the wild beasts."

Well there is no room for interpretation here. In this quote Jesus is definitely suggesting to not eat meat. Although, killing in and of itself, doesn't appear to constitute a transgression.

But then there is this:

Cook not, neither mix all things one with another, lest your bowels become as steaming bogs. For I tell you truly, this is abominable in the eyes of the Lord.

Really? Abominable? According to Leviticus, homosexuality is also an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. This text appears to be taking a similar tone.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

... but anyhow back to this "Gospel of Peace"...

For I tell you truly, if you mix together all sorts of food in your body, then the peace of your body will cease, and endless war will rage in you.

I guess Jesus would be against juicing as well? :-/ Quick! Somebody tell Joe Cross he has been "raging endless war" in his body by mixing his juices together!

Looks like we need to slap a Q'uo disclaimer at the beginning of this text so that way we can just cherry-pick the parts which suit our beliefs, and discard the rest.

Or... maybe Jesus was a seeker just like the rest of us? Probably earlier on he loudly preached about certain ideas, but later learned the folly of absolutism, dualistic thinking, and prematurely flapping one's jaws. I would imagine a mature Jesus to take more of a tone from some of the Gnostic writings. Maybe Jesus just changed his mind? Either that or somebody is deliberately distorting his words.

Over the course of my life, I have similarly found my belief system to evolve from more like the Jesus of the Essenes, to more like the Jesus of the Gnostics. Now, you don't suppose I have been actually spiritually regressing this whole time, do you? (That is a rhetorical question)

I graciously offer these quotes from the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, which opens with:

"Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."

His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?"

Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."

Nothing about diet despite a direct question. :-/ In fact, later on Jesus speaks against fasting, prayer, and almsgiving altogether.

Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

And He said, "The Kingdom is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish. Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

Apparently fishing is "OK".

Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits. When you go into any land and walk about in the districts, if they receive you, eat what they will set before you, and heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but that which issues from your mouth - it is that which will defile you."

:idea: Quite a profound statement there, I believe.

Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where did you come from?', say to them, 'We came from the light, the place where the light came into being on its own accord and established [itself] and became manifest through their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?', say, 'We are its children, we are the elect of the Living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the sign of your father in you?', say to them, 'It is movement and repose.'"

His disciples said to Him, "When will the repose of the dead come about, and when will the new world come?"

He said to them, "What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it."

Jesus said, "Whoever has come to understand the world has found (only) a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world."

Jesus said, "He who has recognized the world has found the body, but he who has found the body is superior to the world."

Jesus said, "Wretched is the body that is dependent upon a body, and wretched is the soul that is dependent on these two."

Jesus said, "Woe to the flesh that depends on the soul; woe to the soul that depends on the flesh."

Now, I anticipate some will come back and try to turn a few of these quotes on their head and apply alternate definitions of words to suit their personal beliefs. I will preemptively respond to this by pointing to the overall context of the entire work. Just like with the L/L Transcripts.

---

LoL, I was about to ask him to record himself walking on water for us, being 6D and all. Maybe levitate?

The manifestation of "miracles" is not an indication of higher consciousness. Though many would be deceived by such feats. Others appear obsessed with developing these powers. Some just like dabbling with magic and using metaphysical powers to influence and manipulate others- "for their own good" of course.

In the Hindu belief system these are known as siddhis, and through the ascetic practices of the Jains has become to be associated with concepts like harmlessness (ahimsa) and vegetarianism. Round about this same time is when the flip-flop occurred between the ahuras and daevas.

Under the Zoroastrian system... the ahuras were the good spirits, who followed the path of the Father (Ahura Mazda) while the daevas were the fallen angels, who succumbed to the trickery and deceit of the corrupted demiurge Ahriman (who later became Ba'al, the false "Yahweh", and Satan).

During the rise of Jainism in the 7th - 6th century BC, the roles of these gods in the Hindu belief system became inverted where the daevas were seen as the good spirits, and the ahuras the fallen ones. Paradoxically, while the daevas are portrayed in extravagance and all the material accoutrements of narcissism (including open use of the siddhis), according to Jainists strict ascetic practices are required to attain this state of consciousness.

Later on, as early Christianity developed, this inverted line of thought became embraced by a reclusive sect known as the Essenes.

In other spiritual belief systems, these types of supernatural powers are seen as a distraction from the true spiritual path, and dangerous to develop before one is reborn with true spiritual awareness. Otherwise, such powers might be put to use to elevate the flesh over the spirit, and so perpetuate the fallen state of humanity to the shackles of "spiritual" materialism through the false doctrine of liberation by means of supernatural powers and the allure of physical immortality, as depicted here in Major Arcana XV:

Hexagram 36 from the I Ching, called Darkening of the Light, also offers the image of earth (flesh) over fire (spirit):

Here the sun has sunk under the earth and is therefore darkened. The name of the hexagram means literally “wounding of the bright”; hence the individual lines contain frequent references to wounding. The situation is the exact opposite of that in the foregoing hexagram In the latter a wise man at the head of affairs has able helpers, and in company with them makes progress; here a man of dark nature is in a position of authority and brings harm to the wise and able man.

[Monica]

:exclamation: Great quotes!

The Essenes were a certain reclusive sect of Christianity that was still very much steeped in the dualistic thinking of Zoroastrianism ("wickedness" and "righteousness") and the absolutism of the Jainists ("always" and "never"). This makes the text more than a little suspect to me about these being the true words of Jesus. I think he was probably a little more evolved than that?

Yeah who knows? The 'accepted' gospels are quite suspect too.

Who knows what he really said?

Though I see your point... this is actually the first I have read of Jesus advocating for vegetarianism...

I'm not into the Bible (anymore) so I'm not looking for validation in it, but if anyone is interested, here is an excellent analysis of Bible quotes concerning this question:

Thou Shalt Not Kill (Gnostic)

Four Soul Killers (Gnostic)

For the record, I don't agree with everything in the The Four Soul Killers. I really don't think a glass of wine destroys the soul! (YIKES! If so then I'm a goner!)

But, for those who are interested in validating either eating animals or being vegetarian, with the Bible, then this is a must-read! The points made, and the backing up of points with Biblical scripture, is very compelling!

So eat always from the table of God: the fruits of the trees, the grain and grasses of the field, the milk of beasts, and the honey of bees.

... but apparently not veganism.

Right. I personally think the rigid rule of 'no animal products EVER' is baseless. I see nothing wrong with raw, organic goat's milk, or even cow's milk if the cows were treated well. I see nothing wrong with free-range eggs. And honey...if the bees were treated well.

I'm not into rigid veganism.

So killing worms (which are animals) does not appear to violate the Law. Whew! That's a relief! I thought perhaps I should allow worms to grow in my digestive tract, so as not to harm them or cut their lives short.

Whew! Thankfully!

Wow! I guess Jesus was also a raw foodist!

If the Essene Gospel is authentic, then yeah pretty much.

]
Shucks I guess gluten-sensitive people will never get to see the Kingdom of God... and Jesus' advice for the diet is to eat more wheat?! Hasn't it been scientifically demonstrated that a grain-based diet contributes to all manner of health problems?

Well the wheat commonly eaten bears very little resemblance to the wheat of our ancestors.

Really? Abominable? According to Leviticus, homosexuality is also an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. This text appears to be taking a similar tone.

The abominable term plus all the references to satan can be translated into more acceptable terminology, or disregarded. It is a bible after all. :-/

I guess Jesus would be against juicing as well? :-/ Quick! Somebody tell Joe Cross he has been "raging endless war" in his body by mixing his juices together!

Yikes! You mean I can't use my VitaMix!!!???

Nah, I like to read this stuff for the concepts, not for any rigid docrtrine.

Looks like we need to slap a Q'uo disclaimer at the beginning of this text so that way we can just cherry-pick the parts which suit our beliefs, and discard the rest.

Yeah pretty much.

Or... maybe Jesus was a seeker just like the rest of us?

Exactly. He was just a Wanderer. A very special Wanderer, with a very special and important purpose, but a Wanderer nonetheless.

[Tenet Nosce]

Yeah who knows? The 'accepted' gospels are quite suspect too.

Who knows what he really said?

Hrmm. Yes I mean here we have two sets of quotes directly attributed to Jesus which appear to promote opposite views. And neither view made it into the canonical gospels.

I'm not into the Bible (anymore) so I'm not looking for validation in it

Me neither. But I do find it fascinating! Even looking at the same line in different versions of the Bible can convey very different meanings to the reader.

but if anyone is interested, here is an excellent analysis of Bible quotes concerning this question:

I see this article uses the word gnosis, but I don't know that these views are Gnostic.

A common characteristic of some of these groups was the teaching that the realisation of Gnosis (esoteric or intuitive knowledge), is the way to salvation of the soul from the material world. They saw the material world as created through an intermediary being (demiurge) rather than directly by God. In most of the systems, this demiurge was seen as imperfect, in others even as evil. Different gnostic schools sometimes identified the demiurge as Adam Kadmon, Ahriman, El (deity), Saklas, Samael, Satan, Yaldabaoth, or Yahweh.

...

Numerous early Christian Fathers accused some Gnostic teachers of claiming to eschew the physical realm, while simultaneously freely indulging their physical appetites; however, there is reason to question the accuracy of these claims.

I guess the scholars don't really know either. But what I do like about the Gnostic cosmology is the idea of the false god Yahweh and the focus on developing self-awareness and paying attention to one's inner guidance over external sources and gurus. This would appear to line up nicely with the Ra material as well as other historical data and writings.

I also like that gnosticism attracted women in particular because of its egalitarian perspective and allowed their participation in sacred rites. I just have this hunch Jesus wasn't a chauvinist.

In addition, the views most closely parallel the Pure Land form of Buddhism, as espoused by Thich Nhat Hanh. I think that guy is spot on.

For anybody further interested in learning about gnostic christianity, I would recommend the works of Elaine Pagels: The Gnostic Gospels, The Origin of Satan, Adam, Eve, and the Serpent and Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas.

Well the wheat commonly eaten bears very little resemblance to the wheat of our ancestors.

True enough.

All else aside, I think the common thread for me is that I take issue with dietary law. All religions have certain sects which espouse dietary law, but they seem to run most strongly through the Abrahamic traditions.

Really it all goes back to the story of how Abraham forbade the Israelites from making animal sacrifices while he was up on the mount with Yahweh (I happen to believe this was the false Yahweh). When he returned to find they were worshiping a golden calf that Aaron had made, he ordered his brothers and sisters to be slain.

This task was taken up by the Levites (or sons of Levi) who later were placed in charge of protecting the tabernacle which held the Ark of the Covenant as the tribes wandered through the desert. So interesting how the Ten Commandments were protected by a band of murderers... but the Bible doesn't exactly point that out in the open.

Later, the Levites were "given" the land which is now the "Middle East" (before that Phoenicia and before that Canaan) which of course meant they were given permission to murder the previous inhabitants. In those times, it was a haven for thieves and criminals looking to escape justice in their home lands.

Let us not forget the first commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. I always thought that was interesting wording there. Hmm.. now what kind of a god would say such a thing?

Interestingly, the book Leviticus I referred to earlier was actually a code of behavior specifically for the Levites. I don't think it was meant toward people in general. As you may recall, this is the book that homophobes like to cherry-pick from to support bigotry.

[Oceania]

it means you shouldn't worship things other than love. things like money.

[_X7]

All formal religions appear "controlled" at some point or other. For example Christianity was formally organized and instituted as a State control measure by emperors of Rome. Why? Well, because the spiritual message of slaves proclaimed that God is within! They actually dared to imply that emperors are not representatives of gods. Totalitarian emperors just hate such a belief. STS controllers want to prescribe all belief content, or as much as is possible, overtly or covertly.

What is more documented is the fact that most diets upon our planet are based upon what is attainable. Did spiritual leaders actually promote dietary guidance? Or did they simply use metaphor, so as to be heard? Was it situational issues? or rituals? or fates? (and not in purely spiritual realms?). Linearly, centralized religions, injected their own biases through the lures of food for hungry mouths. Bread and circuses still exist today.

We are all one, but that does not mean we must choose centralization over freedom of belief. Le us eat freely and discuss freely while we can.

[Tenet Nosce]

it means you shouldn't worship things other than love. things like money.

You mean the story? I don't know that it is totally metaphorical. I have found evidence scattered about that leads me to believe that people literally constructed these golden idols which they poured the blood of sacrificial animals over.

It seems to be a remnant from the last time when the gods (4D) commingled with men (3D). From what I intuit- those 4D entities that allowed themselves to be worshiped as gods devised this system to allow them to maintain influence over 3D after the worlds began to separate. This appears to have specifically involved the blood of animal sacrifice and gold.

Somehow it seems, while the rest of the 4D "gods" faded into the background, one of them managed to maintain a foothold in this reality. This would be the "LORD" of the Bible... an absolutist, dualistic, jealous and angry god who barks orders at their followers and has no qualms about bringing war, famine, and pestilence upon humanity if it suited their purpose. This "LORD our God" is also responsible for instituting a convoluted set dietary laws for their followers. Being a 4D genetic engineer- I would imagine this entity was already aware of how different foods can affect DNA.

Questioner: When did Yahweh act to perform the genetic changes?

Ra: I am Ra. The Yahweh group worked with those of the planet you call Mars 75000 years ago in what you would call the cloning process. There are differences, but they lie in the future of your time/space continuum and we cannot break the free will Law of Confusion.

The 2600, approximately, time was the second time—we correct ourselves: 3600—approximately, the time of attempts by those of the Orion group during this cultural complex; this was a series of encounters in which the ones called Anak were impregnated with the new genetic coding by your physical complex means so that the organisms would be larger and stronger.

Wikipedia - Anak

According to the Book of Numbers, during the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites, Anak was a well known figure, and a forefather of the Anakites (Heb. Anakim) who have been considered "strong and tall," they were also said to have been a mixed race of giant people, descendants of the Nephilim (Numbers 13:33). The use of the word "nephilim" in this verse describes a crossbreed of God's sons and the daughters of man, as cited in (Genesis 6:1-2) and (Genesis 6:4). The text states that Anak was a Rephaite (Deuteronomy 2:11) and a son of Arba (Joshua 15:13). Etymologically, Anak means [long] neck.

The sons of Anak are first mentioned in Numbers 13. The Israelite leader Moses sends twelve spies representing the twelve tribes of Israel to scout out the land of Canaan, and give a full report to the congregation. The spies enter from the Negev desert and journey northward through the Judaean hills until they arrive at the brook of Eshcol near Hebron, where reside Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai, the sons of Anak. After the scouts have explored the entire land, they bring back samples of the fruit of the land; most notably a gigantic cluster of grapes which requires two men to carry it on a pole between them. The scouts then report to Moses and the congregation, that "the land indeed is a land flowing with milk and honey," but ten of the twelve spies discourage the Israelites from even attempting to possess the land, for they reported that the men were taller and stronger than the Israelites, and moreover the sons of Anak dwell in the land, and that they felt like grasshoppers in their presence.

The Egyptian Execration texts of the Middle Kingdom (2055-1650 BC) mention a list of political enemies in Canaan, and among this list are a group called the "ly Anaq" or people of Anaq.

After Ra made the second contact with Akhenaten ca. 1300 BC (1300 years after the first contact with Imhotep in 2600 BC), he attempted to convert all of Egypt to the monistic belief system that says "All Is One". Though the history books pass this down to us as monotheistic "sun worship".

I think this is because most of the Western historians are too steeped in their own Abrahamic traditions to see anything outside of their own limited belief system. The Egyptians didn't like it either, and promptly returned to their old beliefs after Akhenaten died, some even trying to erase him from historical records completely.

Some people just don't like their belief systems rattled... even if such a belief system is causing them to greatly suffer.

But this is just my opinion. Of course, I don't really know for sure what happened, but after fifteen years of researching all of this, it is the picture I have come up with that accounts for the majority of the historical facts as well as the information from the Ra material.

[AnthroHeart]

By worlds beginning to separate, you mean the veil, right? Is that what keeps 4D from influencing 3D directly?

[Oceania]

i mean the real message was that god is love. you can't go to heaven without Jesus, as Jesus is love. other gods are material.

[Diana]

Some people just don't like their belief systems rattled... even if such a belief system is causing them to greatly suffer.

I think this is somewhat at play with the meat-eating issue. (Not pointed at anyone; just a general comment.) Certainly meat-eating is causing a great deal of suffering for some of the meat-eaters (in terms of health).

We have historically been omnivorous, with the notable exceptions of some evolved individuals Monica pointed out who suggested otherwise. Humans don't like change; it is the principle of least action and conservation of energy programmng.

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What is more documented is the fact that most diets upon our planet are based upon what is attainable. Did spiritual leaders actually promote dietary guidance? Or did they simply use metaphor, so as to be heard? Was it situational issues? or rituals? or fates? (and not in purely spiritual realms?). Linearly, centralized religions, injected their own biases through the lures of food for hungry mouths. Bread and circuses still exist today.

That depends on who the "spiritual leaders" are:

1) Organized religion controls.

2) Advanced beings trying to help humankind, such as Ra or Jesus, bring enlightened concepts to help humans evolve/grow.

---

All else aside, I think the common thread for me is that I take issue with dietary law. All religions have certain sects which espouse dietary law, but they seem to run most strongly through the Abrahamic traditions.

See my above comment regarding "spiritual leaders."

[Tenet Nosce]

By worlds beginning to separate, you mean the veil, right? Is that what keeps 4D from influencing 3D directly?

Yes, separated by the veil. Remember, this sub-Logos specifically chose a Creation where there is naturally a high degree of communication between densities. This is apparently part of the "problem" or should I say challenge.

Questioner: You have stated in a much earlier session that it is necessary to polarize more than 50% service-to-others to be harvestable fourth-density positive. Was this condition the same at the time before the veil?

Ra: I am Ra. This shall be the last full query of this working.

The query is not answered easily, for the concept of service to self did not hold sway previous to what we have been calling the veiling process. The necessity for graduation to fourth density is an ability to use, welcome, and enjoy a certain intensity of the white light of the One Infinite Creator. In your own terms at your space/time nexus this ability may be measured by your previously stated percentages of service.

Prior to the veiling process the measurement would be that of an entity walking up a set of your stairs, each of which was imbued with a certain quality of light. The stair upon which an entity stopped would be either third-density light or fourth-density light. Between the two stairs lies the threshold. To cross that threshold is difficult. There is resistance at the edge, shall we say, of each density. The faculty of faith or will needs to be understood, nourished, and developed in order to have an entity which seeks past the boundary of third density. Those entities which do not do their homework, be they ever so amiable, shall not cross. It was this situation which faced the Logoi prior to the veiling process being introduced into the experiential continuum of third density.

---

I think this is somewhat at play with the meat-eating issue. (Not pointed at anyone; just a general comment.)

Yes... on all sides! On the one hand we have a Texas rancher who probably eats half a cow a week thinking it is all just dandy, and on the other hand an ascetic yogi who is overly concerned that the burger they ate five years ago is still defiling their body and causing them to accumulate negative karma. Then there is everybody else in between.

Certainly meat-eating is causing a great deal of suffering for some of the meat-eaters (in terms of health).

No doubt.

We have historically been omnivorous, with the notable exceptions of some evolved individuals Monica pointed out who suggested otherwise.

Humans are naturally omnivores. (I actually think this has profound meaning for the role of humanity in higher densities.) Throw in a little genetic manipulation here and a little dietary law there and voilà... perpetual conflict among humans.

2) Advanced beings trying to help humankind, such as Ra or Jesus, bring enlightened concepts to help humans evolve/grow.

Don't forget 3) Well-meaning but misguided humans who feel it is appropriate to twist enlightened concepts so as to conform with lesser truths or to edit out certain portions "for the benefit" of others. It's a pickle, no doubt about it. Over the years, I have found that I need to be extremely discerning in this respect.

For example, at first glance the Essene work that Monica linked to made a lot of sense to me. But then when I backed up and looked at it from a big picture view, I see so much absolutism and dualistic thinking that it tends to make me reject the whole thing. Especially if and when I find a differing viewpoint which isn't couched in those terms.

There are -so- many works that I have come across like that over the years. They suck the reader in with nice-sounding platitudes at the beginning, but then unleash all the controlling behaviors, thou shalt nots, and fear-based thinking, once the reader gets deeper into the text. Really, I don't see this as too different from an abusive man who at first coddles a woman with false promises and smooth-talking, but then once she "ties the knot" then he beats the crap out of her for the rest of her life.

I think a lot of "spiritual" paths work this way... they get you in feeling good and then once you trust them... THEN all the fear-mongering starts to come out. Usually disguised as an "initiation" or "advanced teaching" or something like that. Because the initiate is "special" then they have to follow "special rules" that everybody else doesn't. This is obviously divisive, yet very easy to slip into.

The internal yardstick that I use for this is that, while reading if I start to notice myself having restrictive feelings (fear, shame, guilt) then that tells me not to trust the material at hand. True spiritual works cause one to feel expansive feelings (peace, love and joy). End of story. (At least in my book!)

Humanity has been programmed to be very susceptible to lies and deceit. Most of those manipulations are predicated on an idea that on the surface appears liberating, but at the core is quite limiting. That is why when I see somebody backing themselves into a corner dietarily- eating progressively fewer and fewer foods with greater and greater amount of time spent in procurement and preparation of food- it sends up a yellow flag for me.

All the legitimate reasons to "Eat This, Not That" aside- I believe there is more important work to be done here besides maintaining our body complexes. When maintaining the body complex crosses over into being depicted as "spiritual work" that is when I think it crosses over the line. Yes, our bodies are miraculous and amazing biological machines. But they are machines, they are not the consciousness using the machine. Taking good care of my automobile does not make me a better person, just a smarter person.

I guess I have had a hard time conveying this, but I fully agree as one becomes more spiritually aware they will eat less meat. I just don't think it works in the opposite direction. That seems like a Yahweh-style inversion tactic to me. But I could be wrong.

[Diana]

The internal yardstick that I use for this is that, while reading if I start to notice myself having restrictive feelings (fear, shame, guilt) then that tells me not to trust the material at hand. True spiritual works cause one to feel expansive feelings (peace, love and joy). End of story. (At least in my book!)

Yes, that is a sensible yardstick. I will add that in an ever-expanding existence, I think it is important to keep open, and not "believe." Believing closes the door on new information or insights.

---

All the legitimate reasons to "Eat This, Not That" aside- I believe there is more important work to be done here besides maintaining our body complexes. When maintaining the body complex crosses over into being depicted as "spiritual work" that is when I think it crosses over the line. Yes, our bodies are miraculous and amazing biological machines. But they are machines, they are not the consciousness using the machine. Taking good care of my automobile does not make me a better person, just a smarter person.

Hmmmm, I have to disagree here. I just don't think you can separate the body from the whole picture. If my house is cluttered and messy, it effects my thoughts, making me less clear. If I clean my house and honor the space, it makes me more clear. If I were a really advanced being, maybe I wouldn't be so affected.

When my current body dies, and goes into the earth to be recycled, it will have an energy signature, or a density of what it carried and was. (Hard to find words here . . .) So I will, even in my cast off physical vehicle, be adding to physical existence my personal signature. In this way, too, what I have done with my body matters.

[Tenet Nosce]

Speaking more from the angle of my own personal experience, I have eaten a LOT of meat in my time... but probably the majority between the ages of 8 to 24. As a kid, if we went out to eat I would have no problem putting down two pounds of steak.

Nowadays I really don't care for beef that much at all. But I will eat it if served to me. But as far as portion size- four ounces seems about right. Besides actually being the correct portion size from a nutritional standpoint, this is what feels right to my body.

Way back when I first embarked upon my study of comparative spirituality and religion- which incidentally led me to the Ra material- I flip-flopped a lot between ascetic and libertine approaches to spiritual growth.

I actually believe either path will result in growth... but the problem is that to see either through to the end causes one to sacrifice either liberty or solidarity... neither of which I was willing to give up.

This eventually led me to discern a third path, by which I allow my experience to naturally flow on its own, and simply observe what happens within. As this applies to diet- it gives me license to "eat whatever I want" so long as I am paying close attention to the effect it has on my body. This has resulted in a more balanced growth process, I believe.

But looking back I wonder... what really drove my body to have such a strong desire for meat in the first place? I don't think it was merely social conditioning.

When I start allowing for some more obscure or esoteric angles- like genetic manipulation of humanity by 4D entities- then I can see how it would be necessary from a big picture standpoint for higher density beings to willingly choose to incarnate into these limited forms- in order to make repairs from within.

But in order to do this, one must first accept the program. So if the biological program says that I "need to eat meat" then I need to become aware of, and accept, that program before I can change it. Keep in mind, I think only a certain portion of humanity actually carries this set of genes. I wouldn't at all be surprised if such a study came out very shortly.

Now- supposing that is part of the mission of many wanderers (or whatever you want to call them) is it a service or a disservice to choose a vegetarian lifestyle purely out of a noble, but rather unattainable, ideal? Couldn't that derail the mission?

[Monica]

For example, at first glance the Essene work that Monica linked to made a lot of sense to me. But then when I backed up and looked at it from a big picture view, I see so much absolutism and dualistic thinking that it tends to make me reject the whole thing.

It's interesting how we can read the same thing and perceive it differently. The Essene Gospel has a lot of antiquated, Christian terminology like satan, demons, etc. but I overlooked all that when I read it, because of the concepts presented.

The internal yardstick that I use for this is that, while reading if I start to notice myself having restrictive feelings (fear, shame, guilt) then that tells me not to trust the material at hand. True spiritual works cause one to feel expansive feelings (peace, love and joy).

What you are describing is resonance! If we resonate with something, we feel expansive. If we don't, we can feel fear, shame, guilt, confusion, etc.

Whenever I've read diet books full of rules, like for example the Eat Right for Your Type book, I have felt confusion, apprehension and guilt, because the rules all seem so arbitrary. Type O must eat meat, Type A cannot eat wheat, but can eat corn, or whatever. That all seemed so arbitrary to me. Why wheat but not corn? Why are bananas ok but not tomatoes?

In contrast, the Essene Gospel seemed to present very simple concepts that resonated deeply with me. I didn't feel restricted at all. I didn't feel any shame or guilt at all, even though I was eating meat at the time.

There weren't any rules about this or that food, other than the admonition against meat, which made sense to me. I really loved the idea that we have a 'spiritual father' and a 'physical mother' with Mother Earth being the nurturer, suckling her children with abundant plant life.

I loved the idea of sunlight and water being angels, who infused life-force into the life-giving foods laid out on the Mother's table. As Cayce said, life begets life. Having just read Cayce, it made sense to me that eating dead things would beget disease and death, and eating live things would beget health and life.

It made sense to me that the optimal way to eat would be in harmony with the seasons and our own locale. Eat more fruits in summer when they are ripe...store root vegetables and nuts in the fall and winter since they store well. Tropical climates have more fruits year-round because there is a higher need for high-water, cooling fruits, whereas those living in colder climates would probably do better with more 'warming' root vegetables and nuts.

Did Jesus address the Eskimos who don't have access at all to fresh produce? No. But he wasn't talking to them. He was talking to the Essenes. Contrary to what fundamentalist Christians believe, I don't consider the words of Jesus to necessarily be intended for every person on the planet, in every circumstance. He was speaking to a specific group of people who were, presumably, aspiring to higher ideals.

I found the concepts presented to be very idealistic and yet attainable. I instantly resonated with it and have been reaching for those ideals ever since. Have I succeeded? Only partially, but I still hold those ideals as dear. They still resonate with me.

It's curious how that same book might have felt restrictive to you, yet expansive to me. This just shows what Ra and Q'uo are referring to when they say to utilize what resonates.

---

Now- supposing that is part of the mission of many wanderers (or whatever you want to call them) is it a service or a disservice to choose a vegetarian lifestyle purely out of a noble, but rather unattainable, ideal? Couldn't that derail the mission?

Are you referring to vegetarians being vegetarians themselves, or are you referring to vegetarians trying to convince others to be vegetarians?

I'm confused by the question, because I don't consider it unattainable. My experience speaks otherwise. I've been a vegetarian for 40 of my 51 years. My 23-yo son has never had a bite of meat in his life and he's very healthy and strong.

If you are correct that being a vegetarian is unattainable for a small segment of the population, that has no bearing on my interest in sharing info with those who do find it attainable. So I don't see how it could be a disservice in any way.

On the contrary, I think it would be a disservice to not speak up...to both the animals and to the vast majority of the population who can benefit by transitioning to a plant-based diet, or, at the very least, decreasing their meat consumption.

[Tenet Nosce]

I really loved the idea that we have a 'spiritual father' and a 'physical mother' with Mother Earth being the nurturer, suckling her children with abundant plant life.

I loved the idea of sunlight and water being angels, who infused life-force into the life-giving foods laid out on the Mother's table. As Cayce said, life begets life. Having just read Cayce, it made sense to me that eating dead things would beget disease and death, and eating live things would beget health and life.

It made sense to me that the optimal way to eat would be in harmony with the seasons and our own locale. Eat more fruits in summer when they are ripe...store root vegetables and nuts in the fall and winter since they store well. Tropical climates have more fruits year-round because there is a higher need for high-water, cooling fruits, whereas those living in colder climates would probably do better with more 'warming' root vegetables and nuts.

I like all of this too... but I just can't bring myself to extricate these ideas from some of the other mumbo-jumbo which makes cooking food taboo. That's one of the places it crossed over the line for me.

With respect to raw food in general, I have to side with the Chinese view... from an energetic standpoint the body should have a fire in the belly. Too much cold food weakens the energetic system.

Now I understand that "raw" can supposedly mean up to 120 degrees or so... but c'mon isn't that just confusing? I don't think the average person thinks of that as "raw". Why not say "lightly cooked"?

It's curious how that same book might have felt restrictive to you, yet expansive to me. This just shows what Ra and Q'uo are referring to when they say to utilize what resonates.

Yes, I think this is what they are referring to. I also see how this can be turned on its head to reinforce a closed belief system.

Are you referring to vegetarians being vegetarians themselves, or are you referring to vegetarians trying to convince others to be vegetarians?

The convincing. Now- I do have some concern that there are individuals out there who may be genetically programmed to consume meat- but who skip right to vegetarianism. If so- could there be a negative effect because the body was not brought through the proper stages? I wouldn't be surprised.

Also I see potential for issues in family situations where not everybody has the same genes... yet whoever is "in charge" decides on what is best for the family based upon a distorted view of the situation. Not saying this is the case with your son... he wouldn't be so healthy if it were.

But there is the flip side of that, too. Actually one of my very first patients was a little boy with horrible eczema whose mother was raising as vegan. She was so convinced of the "rightness" of veganism that she was really unwilling to hear that it may not be the best choice for him. Of course, the little boy's condition never improved and eventually I stopped hearing from her. So I suppose that experience affects my bias.

But as for vegetarians being themselves- no I never try to convince them to eat meat or anything like that. But if not eating meat means consumption of mass amounts of GMO wheat, corn, and soy, then from a health standpoint I believe both they and the planet would probably be better off eating meat. I mean meat from animals not raised on GMO wheat, corn, and soy, of course.

(I know it is not an either/or thing... but how does one convey this to another who is stuck in either/or thinking?)

I'm confused by the question, because I don't consider it unattainable. My experience speaks otherwise. I've been a vegetarian for 40 of my 51 years. My 23-yo son has never had a bite of meat in his life and he's very healthy and strong.

Yes, but the facility by which yours and your son's bodies do this may not be the same for others. What I mean by "unattainable" is unattainable... without first going through the steps in between. if necessary. So I guess that is really the wrong term to use. Unavailable?

If you are correct that being a vegetarian is unattainable for a small segment of the population, that has no bearing on my interest in sharing info with those who do find it attainable. So I don't see how it could be a disservice in any way.

That's not what I meant. I meant a disservice of the self to the self from a person going cold-turkey (from anything really) when their body is not sufficiently prepared. Now if you were out there proclaiming vegetarianism as a one-size-fits-all solution or out of a spiritual mandate, then yes I think that would be a disservice.

On the contrary, I think it would be a disservice to not speak up...to both the animals and to the vast majority of the population who can benefit by transitioning to a plant-based diet, or, at the very least, decreasing their meat consumption.

Sure... and when you use the word transition then I really take no issue to that. Any other discussion from me beyond that is just more on a pragmatic level.

For example, I think an overall message about shifting to more of a sea-based diet addresses a much broader, more holistic view, of the issue. And if those researchers are right about the algae taking away meat cravings... then this will eventually and naturally lead toward less consumption of sea animals as well.

But when you speak of the "population" I wonder if you just mean Americans? Because the majority of the world is still in a state where they need to eat whatever they can in order to survive. For wide swaths of certain landlocked areas, I think the promotion of insect consumption would be a very wise move, for example. So this is why I won't get behind the idea that eating "animals" is the problem.

It is just too broad of a term for me, and I think misses the mark- which is monoculture and GMO/petroleum-based agriculture.

Earlier this year, we visited a biodynamic farm in Costa Rica. It was very interesting to see how the animals were actually part of the process of farming itself, not just the end result. The animals had a purpose beyond just being meat... although we did eat some of them. But still, they were cared for and appreciated while they lived. I mean... an animal is going to die sooner or later. :-/

I just don't see how this kind of process would incur negative karma... it actually seems to me like the way we need to go. I just didn't get any sense that what was going on there was "wrong" as I do when I see images of current farming practices here in the States. I thought it inspiring.

[Diana]

Now I understand that "raw" can supposedly mean up to 120 degrees or so... but c'mon isn't that just confusing? I don't think the average person thinks of that as "raw". Why not say "lightly cooked"?

I believe the idea is that over a certain temperature, you destroy the enzymes.

[Tenet Nosce]

Now I understand that "raw" can supposedly mean up to 120 degrees or so... but c'mon isn't that just confusing? I don't think the average person thinks of that as "raw". Why not say "lightly cooked"?

I believe the idea is that over a certain temperature, you destroy the enzymes.

I see that. But the body also makes enzymes of its own... plus the process of cooking actually accomplishes much of what the enzymes do.

What I was trying to get at is I take a bit of a issue with the "raw food" movement being somewhat of a misnomer. What? By "raw" you mean "raw or lightly cooked"? To me that is similar to talking about "animal rights" when you really mean "bird and mammal rights". I am using "you" in the general sense.

[Diana]

Now I understand that "raw" can supposedly mean up to 120 degrees or so... but c'mon isn't that just confusing? I don't think the average person thinks of that as "raw". Why not say "lightly cooked"?

I believe the idea is that over a certain temperature, you destroy the enzymes.

I see that. But the body also makes enzymes of its own... plus the process of cooking actually accomplishes much of what the enzymes do.

What I was trying to get at is I take a bit of a issue with the "raw food" movement being somewhat of a misnomer. What? By "raw" you mean "raw or lightly cooked"? To me that is similar to talking about "animal rights" when you really mean "bird and mammal rights". I am using "you" in the general sense.

I think there is always a problem with "labeling." I, for instance, don't aspire to be a "raw-fooder." I do, however, see the efficacy in bringing live food into my body for fuel (plant-based of course). I do eat cooked food as well. But I endeavor to eat "live" food everyday. It seems logical that it has life force. It seems logical that cooked food is "dead."

[Tenet Nosce]

I think there is always a problem with "labeling."

Yes.

I do, however, see the efficacy in bringing live food into my body for fuel (plant-based of course). I do eat cooked food as well. But I endeavor to eat "live" food everyday. It seems logical that it has life force. It seems logical that cooked food is "dead."

Ooohh wait! I just got it! Yes... live food has "life force". But dead food does not have "dead force". Eating only dead food is harmful to the body because of the lack of life force... not because the dead food is inherently harmful. (I mean, really is a bowl of crushed lentil soup harmful? I know some will say yes.)

Yes... this gets right back to the Jains. There are actually two different, but similar, ideas which run through Indian culture.

One is karma. That is the one most of us know about where karma is kind of like a charge upon one's experience. It is just the natural balancing mechanism of the universe. When we learn to act with balance in all things, then we have liberated ourselves from the "wheel of karma" and no longer require incarnation.

The other is called karman. With an "n". The doctrine of karman says that there is actually some kind of "defiling substance" or "uncleanliness" that becomes physically attached to the body when committing certain acts (including eating "unclean" foods). This karman is supposedly what is keeping us "imprisoned" here in our bodies.

What would you say about these?

[AnthroHeart]

I ate a burger today against my better judgment and felt a little nauseous after. It went away, but I'm not liking them really anymore.

I like salads as long as there's variety of ingredients.

[Monica]

With respect to raw food in general, I have to side with the Chinese view... from an energetic standpoint the body should have a fire in the belly. Too much cold food weakens the energetic system.

That's true, but the element of fire can be obtained in other ways besides cooking. Those on a high-raw vegan diet often gravitate towards yoga, chi-kung, and other ways of generating heat in the body. Many also gravitate towards tropical or sub-tropical climates, simply because there is an abundance of fresh, raw fruits and veggies.

The Essene Gospel also addressed this, by advocating letting the 'angel of sunlight' warm the food with life-force.

Earlier you mentioned grains causing health problems for some people. Those who can't tolerate cooked wheat can usually tolerate sprouted, low-temp-baked wheat just fine.

It's interesting that Jesus was advocating sprouted wheat 2000+ years ago, and it's now been shown that the nutrient content of grains is multiplied manyfold when the grain is sprouted.

Now I understand that "raw" can supposedly mean up to 120 degrees or so... but c'mon isn't that just confusing? I don't think the average person thinks of that as "raw". Why not say "lightly cooked"?

In the context of the 'raw' or 'living' diet the demarcation is whether there is still enzymatic activity. Enzymes are destroyed at temps higher than around 120. (There's some dispute about the exact temp, but somewhere around there.)

Yes, I think this is what they are referring to. I also see how this can be turned on its head to reinforce a closed belief system.

Very true.

The convincing. Now- I do have some concern that there are individuals out there who may be genetically programmed to consume meat- but who skip right to vegetarianism. If so- could there be a negative effect because the body was not brought through the proper stages? I wouldn't be surprised.

I suppose so. There are probably many factors at play here, such as the reason the person decided to go veg, how toxic they are, whether they replace the meat with a healthy diet, etc.

On the other hand, there are known negative effects of continuing to eat hamburgers and other junk food...

But there is the flip side of that, too. Actually one of my very first patients was a little boy with horrible eczema whose mother was raising as vegan. She was so convinced of the "rightness" of veganism that she was really unwilling to hear that it may not be the best choice for him. Of course, the little boy's condition never improved and eventually I stopped hearing from her. So I suppose that experience affects my bias.

I can see how that experience affected your view.

I'm not so sure that there can be any certainty that lack of meat was the cause or even a contributing factor, though. My guess is that lack of essential fatty acids is a more likely culprit.

When I was having unusual health problems years ago, and after consulting with MDs, NDs, homeopaths, acupuncturists, etc. all to no avail, I finally let a macrobiotic nutritional counselor convince me to eat meat again. (This shows the level of desperation I had reached!) He told me I lacked 'chi' or 'digestive fire' and needed meat.

It was extremely difficult for me. After having been a vegetarian for about 15 years, I dutifully cooked organic chicken and salmon, smothered it in hot salsa, and got it down.

I ate it every day for about a year.

Guess what - it didn't help my health problems at all! I mean not even a little.

So I finally decided to be true to my vegetarian self and quit eating the meat, since it didn't help anyway.

Later, I did find the solution to the problems, and it had nothing to do with meat.

But as for vegetarians being themselves- no I never try to convince them to eat meat or anything like that. But if not eating meat means consumption of mass amounts of GMO wheat, corn, and soy, then from a health standpoint I believe they would probably be better off eating meat.

That's a tossup, since the meat has all the hormones, concentrated pesticides, etc.

(I know it is not an either/or thing... but how does one convey this to another who is stuck in either/or thinking?)

I dunno.

That's not what I meant. I meant a disservice of the self to the self from a person going cold-turkey (from anything really) when their body is not sufficiently prepared. Now if you were out there proclaiming vegetarianism as a one-size-fits-all solution or out of a spiritual mandate, then yes I think that would be a disservice.

Even if I did do that (which I don't), people can still make their own choices. No one is forced to 'go cold turkey' unless they allow themselves to be.

Sure... and when you use the word transition then I really take no issue to that. Any other discussion from me beyond that is just more on a pragmatic level.

For me, it's a philosophical thing, at least in this discussion.

For example, I think an overall message about shifting to more of a sea-based diet addresses a much broader, more holistic view, of the issue. And if those researchers are right about the algae taking away meat cravings... then this will eventually and naturally lead toward less consumption of sea animals as well.

I agree that that might be an excellent transition.

But when you speak of the "population" I wonder if you just mean Americans? Because the majority of the world is still in a state where they need to eat whatever they can in order to survive. For wide swaths of certain landlocked areas, I think the promotion of insect consumption would be a very wise move, for example. So this is why I won't get behind the idea that eating "animals" is the problem.

Other than philosophical ideals of what may happen eventually, yes, I'm primarily referring to the US and other industrialized nations that have large factory farming meat industries.

[Diana]

Ooohh wait! I just got it! Yes... live food has "life force". But dead food does not have "dead force". Eating only dead food is harmful to the body because of the lack of life force... not because the dead food is inherently harmful. (I mean, really is a bowl of crushed lentil soup harmful? I know some will say yes.)

What I meant by dead, is simply no life force. I did not say it had "dead force" or that it was harmful. I am into optimizing my potential, so I include live food every day . It's like adding in a superfood.

[Monica]

Ooohh wait! I just got it! Yes... live food has "life force". But dead food does not have "dead force". Eating only dead food is harmful to the body because of the lack of life force... not because the dead food is inherently harmful. (I mean, really is a bowl of crushed lentil soup harmful? I know some will say yes.)

Assuming you're referring to cooked, wholesome (pesticide-free etc.) plant-based foods, I would agree totally.

One is karma. That is the one most of us know about where karma is kind of like a charge upon one's experience. It is just the natural balancing mechanism of the universe. When we learn to act with balance in all things, then we have liberated ourselves from the "wheel of karma" and no longer require incarnation.

The other is called karman. With an "n". The doctrine of karman says that there is actually some kind of "defiling substance" or "uncleanliness" that becomes physically attached to the body when committing certain acts (including eating "unclean" foods). This karman is supposedly what is keeping us "imprisoned" here in our bodies.

What would you say about these?

I'd say meat has both karma and karman...karma because of contributing to the suffering of the animal, and karman because of the toxic substances (artificial hormones, concentrated pesticides, and fear hormones generated at time of death).

[Diana]

One is karma. That is the one most of us know about where karma is kind of like a charge upon one's experience. It is just the natural balancing mechanism of the universe. When we learn to act with balance in all things, then we have liberated ourselves from the "wheel of karma" and no longer require incarnation.

The other is called karman. With an "n". The doctrine of karman says that there is actually some kind of "defiling substance" or "uncleanliness" that becomes physically attached to the body when committing certain acts (including eating "unclean" foods). This karman is supposedly what is keeping us "imprisoned" here in our bodies.

What would you say about these?

I think the definition of karma is a very narrow view. But then, "karma" is like, "God," or "Love": these words carry very charged and human meanings. I'm not sure about any of it, although cause and effect is undeniable. I do speculate one might get off the wheel of karma--assuming there is one--by a single act of forgiving oneself.

As to "karman": Sounds like dogmatic beliefs. I do think that perhaps one might refine the body (opposite direction of negative defiling) more and more in an effort to make it lighter, closer to "light."

[Tenet Nosce]

That's true, but the element of fire can be obtained in other ways besides cooking. Those on a high-raw vegan diet often gravitate towards yoga, chi-kung, and other ways of generating heat in the body. Many also gravitate towards tropical or sub-tropical climates, simply because there is an abundance of fresh, raw fruits and veggies.

I think location does play a huge difference. My food cravings definitely do change according to location. As well as the seasons. But I wouldn't know all this if I weren't looking for it!

I actually saw a guy once who came in and wanted me to design a nutrition plan for weight loss. I hate doing these by the way. But one thing I appreciated about him was that he was very upfront and honest- he liked McDonald's and was not in a place to give it up.

One might find this a stressful situation, but I was relieved because what actually most people do is agree to one thing- without ever really intending to follow it in the first place. Then when it doesn't work, they can conveniently blame you.

So anyway I told the guy, yes I will write McDonald's into your plan. One one condition. For the next two weeks, every time you don't feel well (he had a whole bunch of complaints) I want you to think back to what your last meal is. That is all. He agreed to this and went off.

Well, typically in this sort of situation I wouldn't expect him to actually return. (Those folks seem to prefer to no-show rather than cancelling their appointment for whatever reason.) Not only did he show up- but he declared that he was never eating McDonald's again! So based on my experience, that is what works.

All these people caught up in the pop culture aspect of dieting trends just keep getting bopped around like pinballs. And spending a lot of money doing it too.

The Essene Gospel also addressed this, by advocating letting the 'angel of sunlight' warm the food with life-force.

This sounds like something Ra would say to me.

Earlier you mentioned grains causing health problems for some people. Those who can't tolerate cooked wheat can usually tolerate sprouted, low-temp-baked wheat just fine.

Yes, that's true.

It's interesting that Jesus was advocating sprouted wheat 2000+ years ago, and it's now been shown that the nutrient content of grains is multiplied manyfold when the grain is sprouted.

Yes, and even more interesting how this important information could have become lost! Actually it seems like more than once! I wonder why humanity keeps forgetting about this.

In the context of the 'raw' or 'living' diet the demarcation is whether there is still enzymatic activity. Enzymes are destroyed at temps higher than around 120. (There's some dispute about the exact temp, but somewhere around there.)

Different temps for different enzymes. pH also makes a big difference. I see the principle though I don't think it applicable in a linear fashion. I would imagine, the more vital the body is the more purely raw food it can handle.

I would be concerned about switching an elderly person directly to a raw food diet, though. I am not convinced that is the appropriate first step. I would definitely tell them to eat vegetables lightly steamed. Plus to eat things like squashes which... are those even edible raw?? Gross! LOL

On the other hand, there are known negative effects of continuing to eat hamburgers and other junk food...

Yes, but not really so much for eating a few pounds of organically-raised chicken and lamb per week. I can't say I am aware of any evidence to suggest that would be harmful to the body.

I'm not so sure that there can be any certainty that lack of meat was the cause or even a contributing factor, though. My guess is that lack of essential fatty acids is a more likely culprit.

No no it's wasn't lack of meat. You are right... actually that was the problem though because she didn't... I dunno... "believe me"... that some bodies have a harder time with plant-sources of omega-3 than animal sources. She just couldn't accept that information as valid because in her mind plant trumps animal every time.

Actually now with algal sources of omega-3 this might be a moot point.

When I was having unusual health problems years ago, and after consulting with MDs, NDs, homeopaths, acupuncturists, etc. all to no avail, I finally let a macrobiotic nutritional counselor convince me to eat meat again. (This shows the level of desperation I had reached!) He told me I lacked 'chi' or 'digestive fire' and needed meat.

What?! :exclamation: See to me this is the same problem from another angle. He said you needed it as if that was a done deal. I would definitely toss something like that out there as a "maybe" or "something to try possibly as an experiment" in that sort of situation. But I wouldn't start there anyway... certainly I have never felt the need to go there at all.

It was extremely difficult for me. After having been a vegetarian for about 15 years, I dutifully cooked organic chicken and salmon, smothered it in hot salsa, and got it down.

How much and how often? And what was up with the salsa thing?

Guess what - it didn't help my health problems at all! I mean not even a little.

Regarding changes in the body, I tell people that positive results should be at least noticeable within two or three weeks, and obvious at three to four months.

I can't imagine the mindset of a practitioner who would tell a client to just "hold on" and trust anything for that long without seeing a result. *shock and amazement*

Later, I did find the solution to the problems, and it had nothing to do with meat.

So the meat didn't seem to make anything worse, either?

That's a tossup, since the meat has all the hormones, concentrated pesticides, etc.

I went back and modified that statement to address how the meat was produced. Yes.

---

I'd say meat has both karma and karman...karma because of contributing to the suffering of the animal, and karman because of the toxic substances (artificial hormones, concentrated pesticides, and fear hormones generated at time of death).

These substances harm the body... and can limit consciousness... but are you saying they harm the spirit?

I think that is what those Jain monks were talking about. I think if they were also students of the Ra material they would say that somebody who eats toxic meat products cannot be harvestable to 4D. The toxins actually keep their spirit bound to this place.

---

I'm not sure about any of it, although cause and effect is undeniable.

Yes, I am thinking in the cause and effect sense. Like for example, if I were to attempt to cast a harmful magic spell on somebody, I would actually be invoking harm to come to my own self at some time in the future. It is not really a "punishment" just the effects of my actions on a metaphysical level. But you are right, there are many conceptions of this.

I do speculate one might get off the wheel of karma--assuming there is one--by a single act of forgiving oneself.

That would be the most logical conclusion.

As to "karman": Sounds like dogmatic beliefs. I do think that perhaps one might refine the body (opposite direction of negative defiling) more and more in an effort to make it lighter, closer to "light."

I think so too.

---

This is just a random thought... but what if the "Essenes" were more like a holistic retreat center that Jesus designed? Not so much a set of spiritual mandates, but more like "here try this"?

No doubt after his departure some others swooped in and turned it into some sort of weird cultish thing.

[Monica]

Not only did he show up- but he declared that he was never eating McDonald's again! So based on my experience, that is what works.

Cool!

I actually do something similar. Rather than lay any sort of vegetarian dogma on them, I might just suggest that they try incorporating some vegetarian meals a couple times per week...then once they get a few recipes they like, try leaving out meat for a month and see how they feel.

Or, I might suggest they start juicing and see how they feel.

All these people caught up in the pop culture aspect of dieting trends just keep getting bopped around like pinballs. And spending a lot of money doing it too.

Been there done that. Confession time: I even tried Adkins once.

A vegetarian version, which meant heavy on the eggs, butter and cheese. It worked. I lost 15 pounds in a couple of weeks. But it gave me arthritis and hemmorhoids. (!!!)

(Fortunately, both cleared up within a week or so of getting back to my normal plant-based diet.)

Adkins was the most dreadful diet experience I've ever had. I still feel sheepish for falling for it. (It was back when the diet first got popular...mid 90s or so?)

I would imagine, the more vital the body is the more purely raw food it can handle.

That's an interesting question...but then wouldn't gradually eating more raw food make the body more vital? Seems like a natural process.

I would be concerned about switching an elderly person directly to a raw food diet, though. I am not convinced that is the appropriate first step. I would definitely tell them to eat vegetables lightly steamed.

You're probably right about that. My dad couldn't even eat bananas. Bananas! He said they gave him gas.

Plus to eat things like squashes which... are those even edible raw?? Gross! LOL

Ha, you'd be surprised! There are all sorts of ways to prepare raw zucchini, sweet potato, even regular potatoes!

I thought potatoes weren't edible raw, but they are. There's a lot of info out there about juicing red potatoes as a cancer treatment. And recipes for raw potato chips. You have to make sure you cut off all the green parts, which are toxic, but it's doable.

They were good but a lot of work. I don't plan to quit eating cooked potatoes any time soon.

Yes, but not really so much for eating a few pounds of organically-raised chicken and lamb per week. I can't say I am aware of any evidence to suggest that would be harmful to the body.

I had given up red meat for about a year before I went veg. Some co-workers had a BBQ and brought chicken just for me. I didn't have the heart to tell them I now didn't eat chicken anymore either, so I decided to go ahead and eat it 'one more time.'

I was unable to do it. My co-worker noticed that I was 'picking at' my food. And, I felt nauseous later. It was probably psychological, but I just couldn't go back.

No no it's wasn't lack of meat. You are right... actually that was the problem though because she didn't... I dunno... "believe me"... that some bodies have a harder time with plant-sources of omega-3 than animal sources. She just couldn't accept that information as valid because in her mind plant trumps animal every time.

I understand. Actually, when I went back to meat during that year, it was a very humbling experience and did me a lot of good in that respect, just by forcing me to let go of rigid dogma. Which is probably why it happened, since the meat itself didn't even help me.

Actually now with algal sources of omega-3 this might be a moot point.

Yes, and chia seeds and flax seeds. For breakfast today I had a bowl of chia pudding (chia seeds soaked in milk made from raw almonds and hemp hearts, + a dash of vanilla and maple syrup. Yum!). Talk about essential fatty acid powerhouse!

I actually tried taking fish oil for awhile even after going veg, as one of the many things I tried to solve the health problems, but I kept burping up a nasty fish taste. And I had nightmares. I stopped, nightmares stopped. Started again, nightmares started again. I experimented about 5 or 6 times and it was conclusive.

What?! :exclamation: See to me this is the same problem from another angle. He said you needed it as if that was a done deal. I would definitely toss something like that out there as a "maybe" or "something to try possibly as an experiment" in that sort of situation. But I wouldn't start there anyway... certainly I have never felt the need to go there at all.

I had already tried nearly everything else. This guy was very pro-meat though. You know the Doctrine of Signatures, right? Well he thought bananas would make the male member limp.

HUH???

Nope, not true at all!

How much and how often? And what was up with the salsa thing?

Every day, sometimes twice a day. Organic baked chicken and wild salmon.

I didn't want to say this, but since you asked, I had to smother it in salsa in order to eat it without puking. Sorry, but it's true.

I had to pretend it was tofu.

Regarding changes in the body, I tell people that positive results should be at least noticeable within two or three weeks, and obvious at three to four months.

Man, I should have called you instead! This guy told me I was so 'deficient' that it would take months to recover. So I kept at it, even though the nightmares started and didn't quit. What else could I do? I really was desperate!

After many months, he told me I needed something stronger and 'hotter' (energetically). Yup. You guessed it. He convinced me to go from chicken & fish to red meat.

I resisted this. I had to draw the line somewhere! But again, in desperation, I had my hubby bring home some organic beef and cook it for me.

I couldn't get past a few bites, not even smothered in salsa. That night, I had an especially horrible nightmare.

I told the macrobiotics guy and he then suggested I try deer meat. So I had to go to a taxidermy place that carried venison.

I was able to eat that with less trouble than the beef, for some reason.

But that didn't help either.

After another couple of months, I gave up on that idea and went back to my veggie self.

The nightmares stopped.

Incidentally, my skin looked more leathery during that year of eating meat. My skin is normally very good, very light and glowing. (I look younger than I am.)

I can't imagine the mindset of a practitioner who would tell a client to just "hold on" and trust anything for that long without seeing a result. *shock and amazement*

Well you aren't rigid in your thinking like this guy was.

So the meat didn't seem to make anything worse, either?

Digestion and elimination slowed down, and my skin. Other than that, not that I noticed.

These substances harm the body... and can limit consciousness... but are you saying they harm the spirit?

That statement wasn't about the meat substance itself, but the conscious turning off compassion, once the person had become aware of the plight of the animals.

---

No doubt after his departure some others swooped in and turned it into some sort of weird cultish thing.

Well they sure did that with the Bible!

[BrownEye]

But the body also makes enzymes of its own... plus the process of cooking actually accomplishes much of what the enzymes do.

A supplement company telling us we need to eat raw foods. And knowing that we are a lazy society they offer us pills.

http://www.enzymedica.com/faq.php
1. What are enzymes?

Enzymes are protein chemicals, which carry a vital energy factor needed for every chemical action, and reaction that occurs in our body. There are approximately 1300 different enzymes found in the human cell. These enzymes can combine with coenzymes to form nearly 100,000 various chemicals that enable us to see, hear, feel, move, digest food, and think. Every organ, every tissue, and all the 100 trillion cells in our body depend upon the reactions of metabolic enzymes and their energy factor. Nutrition cannot be explained without describing the part that enzymes play.

3. Does raw food or juicing in our diet guarantee enough enzymes to meet our needs?

Raw food provides only enough enzymes to digest that particular food. There are no extra enzymes in raw food to digest cooked or processed food. Although a totally raw diet may appear to be the best solution, it is generally not practical, and in most cases, not medically advisable. Due to the risk of bacterial contamination, many foods should not be eaten raw, including meats, poultry, eggs and beans. Many people find the fiber content in large quantities of raw food difficult to digest.

6. What constitutes a healthy body?

Complete health is the sum total of the soundness of our own individual enzyme system. The health of our organs and glands is completely dependent upon our enzyme making abilities. When we are ill, it is because our organs and glands, individually or collectively, cannot function at ideal levels. This is completely influenced by the absence or deficiency of metabolic enzymes. Inherited genes (DNA) control our body's production of metabolic enzymes. Research in the mid 1940's established that some people inherit a low enzyme potential and come into this life with an enzyme deficiency. For those of us born with normal enzyme potential we still loose our ability to produce metabolic enzymes as we age.

Diet is an influence on the health of our glands and organs, and it interacts directly with our genetics. However, good nutrition alone is not enough to attain the genetic potential of your organs and glands. Only if we eat the best of foods with the proper enzymes to assist in their digestion, can we alleviate stress on the entire system and increase the body's ability to fight off disease. Enzymes are vital to the ability of glands and organs to receive the specific nutrients they require to function properly.

9. Where do we get enzymes?

Our body makes enzymes called metabolic enzymes. They are responsible for every action that takes place in our body including digestion.

Enzymes are found in raw foods. However, there are just enough enzymes in each particular food to assist in the breakdown of that food.

11. How can you preserve your body's enzyme level?

It seems that we inherit a certain enzyme potential at birth. However, if we depend solely on our body to produce all the enzymes we need, our enzyme potential will be depleted at a much faster rate than nature intended. To fortify your enzyme potential, you must eat raw foods as much and often as possible and/or take certain enzyme supplements. Failure to do so may result in serious illness or even early death.

13. Can our bodies make enzymes to replace old worn-out excreted ones?

The body can make enzymes. However, research confirms that it is self-defeating to obligate the body to make excessive amounts of highly concentrated digestive enzymes for digest due to the drain this places on the rest of the organs and tissues. Stress and hard physical labor in hot temperatures seem to use up more enzymes, which could shorten your life. To prevent this enzyme loss from shortening your life span, you have only one solution: you must provide enzyme reinforcements from an outside source in order to cut down the secretion of digestive enzymes and allow your body to make enough metabolic enzymes.

16. Should children take enzymes?

Yes. Children usually eat the same enzyme-deficient foods as their parents. Breast-feeding is an important way babies receive enzymes. Children that are breast-fed acquire dozens of enzymes from their mother's milk. Bottle-fed babies receive pasteurized milk that has been heated, which destroys the milk enzymes. Drinking pasteurized milk causes the baby's enzyme factory to begin using its reserve of enzymes from day one. Research indicates that this could be harmful for the child. A study involving 20,061 babies was divided into three groups: breast-fed, partially breast-fed, and bottle-fed. They studied the morbidity (sickness) rate for the first nine months of the infant's life. They found that 37.4% of the breast-fed infants had sickness; in comparison to 53.8% of the partially breast-fed; and 63.6% of the bottle-fed. It is obvious that babies who were entirely breast-fed were healthier than babies who were only partially breast-fed or who were bottle-fed. They also examined the mortality rates of these different groups. The mortality rate among the bottle-fed infants was 56 times greater thanamong the breast-fed. In the United States one deformed child is born every 5 minutes, which is the equivalent of one in every ten families. This adds up to 250,000 deformed babies yearly. Dr. Andre Hakannson at Lund University in Sweden discovered that when he added mother's milk to cultured cancer cells that were alive prior to the addition of the milk, he soon found them to be dead. Further tests indicated that the milk killed only tumor cells, while normal adult cells were left intact. Research is trying to tell us that we, which includes pregnant women and children, must eat raw foods that contain enzymes and/or take supplemental enzymes.

17. Can enzymes control obesity?

Definitely. Obese individuals were found to have deficiency in the enzyme lipase. Lipase is found in abundance in raw foods. Cooking destroys lipase in raw foods. Lipase is the enzyme that aids the body in breaking down and storing fats. Without lipase, our fat stagnates and accumulates in our arteries, which could lead to heart disease. Lipase also helps us to burn fat for energy. By eating cooked foods, which have no enzymes, we will put weight on more abundantly than if we eat raw foods. For example, pig farmers will not feed their pigs raw potatoes because the pigs stay lean. Instead, the farmers feed the pigs boiled potatoes and the pigs become fat.

Another reason why enzymes reduce obesity is because cooked foods cause drastic changes in the size and appearance of the pituitary gland. Researchers have found that enzymes affect our hormone-producing glands and hormones influence our enzyme levels. Cooked foods cause our pancreas, thyroid, and pituitary glands to exhaust their enzymes to digest our food. This causes our body to become sluggish, leading to weight gain. Raw food calories are relatively non-stimulating to glands and stabilize body weight more so than cooked food calories.

---

All these people caught up in the pop culture aspect of dieting trends just keep getting bopped around like pinballs. And spending a lot of money doing it too.

I see people go on temporary diets all the time, because they do not want to do what it takes to create change. Changing permanently involves permanent diet changes. No diet, binge, diet, pills, binge crap. If a person makes the choice to keep their health they will learn about it and do it. Anyone that jumps into it without any interest in learning about it is trying to take a shortcut and will fail, just like many have done and are doing.

Vegetarians have been around forever. If this was a health issue it would have been known forever. Instead we have the same folks that decided what religion should reign telling us how to eat. No red flags there at all.

The earliest records of (lacto) vegetarianism come from ancient India and ancient Greece in the 6th century BCE. In the Asian instance the diet was closely connected with the idea of nonviolence towards animals (called ahimsa in India) and was promoted by religious groups and philosophers. Among the Hellenes, Egyptians and others, it had medical or Ritual purification purposes.“

Indian emperor Ashoka asserted protection to fauna: "Twenty-six years after my coronation various animals were declared to be protected — parrots, mainas, aruna, ruddy geese, wild ducks, nandimukhas, gelatas, bats, queen ants, terrapins, boneless fish, vedareyaka, gangapuputaka, sankiya fish, tortoises, porcupines, squirrels, deer, bulls, okapinda, wild asses, wild pigeons, domestic pigeons and all four-footed creatures that are neither useful nor edible. Those nanny goats, ewes and sows which are with young or giving milk to their young are protected, and so are young ones less than six months old. Cocks are not to be caponized, husks hiding living beings are not to be burnt and forests are not to be burnt either without reason or to kill creatures. One animal is not to be fed to another." —Edicts of Ashoka, Fifth Pillar”

Following the Christianisation of the Roman Empire in late antiquity, vegetarianism practically disappeared from Europe as it was in other Continents, except India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan

[Tenet Nosce]

A supplement company telling us we need to eat raw foods. And knowing that we are a lazy society they offer us pills.

Yes, I am familiar with Enzymedica. I think they have good products, but the rhetoric is a bit much. It sneaks up on ya in this FAQ, for example:

Enzymes are protein chemicals, which carry a vital energy factor needed for every chemical action, and reaction that occurs in our body. There are approximately 1300 different enzymes found in the human cell. These enzymes can combine with coenzymes to form nearly 100,000 various chemicals that enable us to see, hear, feel, move, digest food, and think. Every organ, every tissue, and all the 100 trillion cells in our body depend upon the reactions of metabolic enzymes and their energy factor. Nutrition cannot be explained without describing the part that enzymes play.

Well, that is certainly true.

Raw food provides only enough enzymes to digest that particular food. There are no extra enzymes in raw food to digest cooked or processed food.

I don't really get this claim, and I'm not sure of evidence to support it. Foods become foods because of the enzymes that a particular animal makes. This is why some animals eat certain foods, and to others the same food is poisonous.

Also, for example... the beneficial flora in the human gut depend upon the fact that we don't make enzymes that break down certain kinds of fiber. This fiber acts as food for them.

But if it weren't for some kind of enzyme produced outside of the food itself (by the human or the bacteria), those fibers wouldn't just break down due to their own enzymes.

This is completely influenced by the absence or deficiency of metabolic enzymes.

Produced internally. Not from the foods we eat.

Only if we eat the best of foods with the proper enzymes to assist in their digestion, can we alleviate stress on the entire system and increase the body's ability to fight off disease.

Only? Starting to lose me here...

Enzymes are vital to the ability of glands and organs to receive the specific nutrients they require to function properly.

Yes, the enzymes produced internally by those organs and glands. Which, by the way don't act to digest those organs and glands. That would be counterproductive.

Our body makes enzymes called metabolic enzymes. They are responsible for every action that takes place in our body including digestion.

Yes, as I said.

Enzymes are found in raw foods.

That is true.. but what does it have to do with the previous sentence where they were talking about the enzymes that the body makes?

However, there are just enough enzymes in each particular food to assist in the breakdown of that food.

Lost me again.

It seems that we inherit a certain enzyme potential at birth.

Very shaky statement there. Very shaky.

However, if we depend solely on our body to produce all the enzymes we need, our enzyme potential will be depleted at a much faster rate than nature intended.

Continuing to build on a weak premise...

To fortify your enzyme potential, you must eat raw foods as much and often as possible and/or take certain enzyme supplements.

Fortify my potential? Must? There's that word must again.

The body can make enzymes. However, [b]research confirms that it is self-defeating to obligate the body to make excessive amounts of highly concentrated digestive enzymes for digest due to the drain this places on the rest of the organs and tissues.

What an odd sentence. How are we obligating the body to make excessive amounts of enzymes again? They are starting to contradicts what they said earlier.

Stress and hard physical labor in hot temperatures seem to use up more enzymes, which could shorten your life.

Another dubious proposition.

To prevent this enzyme loss from shortening your life span, you have only one solution: you must provide enzyme reinforcements from an outside source in order to cut down the secretion of digestive enzymes and allow your body to make enough metabolic enzymes.

Must!! The only solution to prevent the "enzyme loss" within my organs and glands is to take digestive enzymes? What do digestive enzymes have to do with the enzymes in my organs and glands? Maybe there is a link but I don't think it is that straightforward.

Yes. Children usually eat the same enzyme-deficient foods as their parents.

Children are also producing much more digestive enzymes than their parents. Assuming all else is functioning properly.

Drinking pasteurized milk causes the baby's enzyme factory to begin using its reserve of enzymes from day one.

Building on the dubious claim of "enzyme reserves". The body makes enzymes. That's what it does. They even said so themselves.

Research is trying to tell us that we, which includes pregnant women and children, must eat raw foods that contain enzymes and/or take supplemental enzymes.

That study actually said nothing about the enzyme content of breast milk having anything to do with the results. Other than that, I agree with the actual conclusion of the study.

Lipase is the enzyme that aids the body in breaking down and storing fats.

Right... so how is it that lipase-deficient people get are getting fat if they can't even absorb fat in the first place?

Lipase also helps us to burn fat for energy.

But the lipase in our fat cells breaking down the fat is not affected by taking lipase in a supplement. The lipase doesn't get absorbed into the body and sent to the fat cell. The lipase in the fat cell needs to be made inside the fat cell.

By eating cooked foods, which have no enzymes, we will put weight on more abundantly than if we eat raw foods.

I'm as skinny as a rail.

For example, pig farmers will not feed their pigs raw potatoes because the pigs stay lean. Instead, the farmers feed the pigs boiled potatoes and the pigs become fat.

This is not a cohesive argument for anything.

Another reason why enzymes reduce obesity is because cooked foods cause drastic changes in the size and appearance of the pituitary gland.

Cause? Citation?

Researchers have found that enzymes affect our hormone-producing glands and hormones influence our enzyme levels.

Well sure, since enzymes affect everything in our bodies. Without enzymes, we couldn't make hormones. And without hormones we couldn't regulate enzyme production. That is how it all works.

But what does this have to do with the enzymes in food?

Cooked foods cause our pancreas, thyroid, and pituitary glands to exhaust their enzymes to digest our food.

The enzymes needed to digest our food actually come from the stomach, the liver and the pancreas.

This causes our body to become sluggish, leading to weight gain. Raw food calories are relatively non-stimulating to glands and stabilize body weight more so than cooked food calories.

Really, this kind of gibberish is what makes natural medicine so tough of a field to navigate. Everybody thinks they are an expert when they don't even have a firm grasp of human physiology.

But still, they make decent products.

The earliest records of (lacto) vegetarianism come from ancient India and ancient Greece in the 6th century BCE. In the Asian instance the diet was closely connected with the idea of nonviolence towards animals (called ahimsa in India) and was promoted by religious groups and philosophers. Among the Hellenes, Egyptians and others, it had medical or Ritual purification purposes.“

I am happy to see my little discourse was confirmed by Wikipedia!

One animal is not to be fed to another." —Edicts of Ashoka, Fifth Pillar

Must have been a rough time to be a cat.

Following the Christianisation of the Roman Empire in late antiquity, vegetarianism practically disappeared from Europe as it was in other Continents, except India

Hmm... that is curious if Jesus was promoting vegetarianism it seems really odd that it would disappear like that.

[Monica]

Produced internally. Not from the foods we eat.

I wonder if the health-giving properties of live plant foods really are because of the enzymes (as some raw foodists suggest) or because of something less tangible...the lifeforce itself.

There does seem to be a lot of conflicting info out there about enzymes. Here is one of the leading raw foods gurus, and expert on enzymes:

Viktoras Kulvinskas Lectures on Enzymes

I haven't actually seen this particular lecture, but I've seen him lecture in person several times before, years ago. I'd be interested in your opinion of this.

Note: He's a bit...eccentric.

But the lipase in our fat cells breaking down the fat is not affected by taking lipase in a supplement. The lipase doesn't get absorbed into the body and sent to the fat cell. The lipase in the fat cell needs to be made inside the fat cell.

So a lipase supplement would help digest fat that is consumed, but not the stored fat in the body? Can you elaborate?

I'm as skinny as a rail.

There are plenty of skinny meat-eaters. Not so many fat vegans. And I don't think there are any fat raw vegans at all.

For example, pig farmers will not feed their pigs raw potatoes because the pigs stay lean. Instead, the farmers feed the pigs boiled potatoes and the pigs become fat.

This is not a cohesive argument for anything.

No? I think it's rather intriguing and warrants further investigation into why that is.

Another reason why enzymes reduce obesity is because cooked foods cause drastic changes in the size and appearance of the pituitary gland.

Cause? Citation?

Wow. Yeah, me too! Cause? Citation? If that's true, then raw vegan here I come!

Following the Christianisation of the Roman Empire in late antiquity, vegetarianism practically disappeared from Europe as it was in other Continents, except India

Wow, very interesting. They promoted the idea of "take dominion over the Earth".

Hmm... so that is curious if Jesus was promoted vegetarianism it seems odd that it would disappear like that.

Well they removed the references to reincarnation too, so I'm not surprised.

The Gnostics have a document showing all the Biblical references to vegetarianism...makes a really good case. I'm not into the Bible but I was impressed with their interpretation of the Bible passages normally glossed over.

http://www.atmajyoti.org/ch_four_soul_killers.asp

Disclaimer: I don't agree with all of this. I certainly don't think a glass of wine is detrimental to the soul. And as I said, I don't take the Bible as authoritative anyway, so I find this all irrelevant. But interesting to those who wish to use the Bible to back up their conclusions.

[BrownEye]

Another reason why enzymes reduce obesity is because cooked foods cause drastic changes in the size and appearance of the pituitary gland.

Cause? Citation?

I will call this guy a pioneer.

Dr. Edward Howell was born in Chicago in 1898. He is the holder of a limited medical license from the State of Illinois.

The holder of a limited practice license is required to pass the same medical examination as a medical doctor. Only surgery, obstetrics and materia medica are excluded.

After obtaining his license, Dr. Howell joined the professional staff of the Lindlahr Sanitorium, where he remained for six years. In 1930, he established a private facility for the treatment of chronic ailments by nutritional and physical methods.

Until he retired in 1970, Dr. Howell was busy in private practice three days each week. The balance of his time he devoted to various kinds of research.

Dr. Howell is the first researcher to recognize the importance of the enzymes in food to human nutrition. In 1946, he wrote the book, "The Status of Food Enzymes in Digestion and Metabolism." Dr. Howell's forthcoming book is entitled, "Enzyme Diet."

This book contains the reference and source materials for the enzyme theories which Dr. Howell has collectively called, "The Food Enzyme Concept." The manuscript for "Enzyme Diet" reviews the scientific literature through 1973. 1t is approximately 160,000 words long and contains 47 tables and 695 references to the world's scientific literature.

In this interview, Dr. Howell tells: What enzymes are, what they do in our bodies, why he believes a state of enzyme deficiency stress exists in most people, and finally, what he believes you can do about it.

"Neither vitamins, minerals or hormones can do any work -- without enzymes."

.............................

In addition, incriminating evidence indicates that cooked, enzyme-free diets contribute to a pathological over-enlargement of the pituitary gland, which regulates the other glands. Furthermore, there is research showing that almost 100% of the people over 50 dying from accidental causes were found to have defective pituitary glands.



And here you have a few sources of nutritional info on cooked food, including Dr. Howell. Although I am sure any of the experiments should be called into question if found to not be funded by FDA, USDA, Monsanto and friends.



Abrams SA, O'Brien KO, Wen J, Liang LK, Stuff JE (1996) "Absorption by 1-year-old children of an iron supplement given with cow's milk or juice." Pediatric Research, vol. 39, pp. 171-175.
Aeschbacher HU (1990) "Anticarcinogenic effect of browning reaction products." In: Finot PA, et al. (eds.) The Maillard Reaction in Food Processing, Human Nutrition and Physiology. Basel; Boston: Birkhäuser Verlag. (pp. 335-348)

Alderton G, et al. (1946) "Identification of the bacteria inhibiting, iron binding protein of egg white as conalbumin." Arch Biochem vol. 11: pp. 9-13.

Alldrick AJ, et al. (1986) "Effects of plant-derived flavonoids and polyphenolic acids on the activity of mutagens from cooked food." Mutat Res, vol. 163, no. 3, (Dec. 1986), pp. 225-232.

Alldrick AL, et al. (1987a) "High levels of dietary fat: alteration of hepatic promutagen activation in the rat." J Natl Cancer Inst, vol. 69, p. 269.

Alldrick AL, et al. (1987b) "The hepatic conversion of some heterocyclic amines to bacterial mutagens is modified by dietary fat and cholesterol." Mutagenesis vol. 2, p. 221.

Alldrick AJ, et al. (1989) "Modification of in vivo heterocyclic amine genotoxicity by dietary flavonoids." Mutagenesis, vol. 4, no. 5 (Sept.), pp. 365-370.

Ames BN (1983) "Dietary carcinogens and anticarcinogens." Science, vol. 221, pp. 1256-1264.

Ames BN (1990) "Nature's chemicals and synthetic chemicals: comparative toxicology." , vol. 87, pp. 7782-7786.

Annand JC (1971) "The case against milk protein." Atherosclerosis, vol. 13, p. 137.

Annand JC (1972) "Further evidence in the case against heated milk protein." Atherosclerosis, vol. 15, no. 1 (Jan.), pp. 129-133.

Annand JC (1986) "Denatured bovine immunoglobulin pathogenic in atherosclerosis." Atherosclerosis, vol. 59, no. 3 (Mar.), pp. 347-351.

Augustsson K, et al. (1997) "Assessment of the human exposure to heterocyclic amines," Carcinogenesis, vol. 18, no. 10 (Oct. 1), pp. 1931-1935.

Augustsson K, et al. (1999) "Dietary heterocyclic amines and cancer of the colon, rectum, bladder and kidney: a population-based study." Lancet, vol. 353, pp. 703-707.

Bach Knudsen KE, et al. (1988) "Effect of cooking, pH and polyphenol level on carbohydrate composition and nutritional quality of a sorghum (Sorghum bicolor (L.) Moench) food, ugali." Br J Nutr, vol. 59, no. 1 (Jan.), pp. 31-47.

Backus RC, et al. (1995) "Diets causing taurine depletion in cats substantially elevate postprandial plasma cholecystokinin concentration." J Nutr, vol. 125, no. 10 (Oct.), pp. 2650-2657.

Baynes JW, Monnier VM, eds. (1989) The Maillard Reaction in Aging, Diabetes and Nutrition. New York: A.R. Liss.

Beier RC, et al. (1994) "Toxicology of naturally occurring chemicals in foods." In: Hui YH, et al., Foodborne Disease Handbook, Vol. 3, Diseases Caused by Hazardous Substances. New York: Marcel Dekker. (pp. 1-186)

Benet S, (1974) Abkhasians: The Long-Living People of the Caucasus. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston.

Bicchieri MG (ed.) (1972) Hunters and Gatherers Today: A Socioeconomic Study of Eleven Such Cultures in the Twentieth Century. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston.

Bleumink E and Berrens L (1966) "Synthetic approaches to the biological activity of beta-lactoglobulin in human allergy to cow's milk." Nature, vol. 212, pp. 541-543.

Bleumink E and Young E (1968) "Identification of the atopic allergen in cow's milk." Int Arch Allergy Appl Immunol, vol. 24, pp. 521.

Bleumink E (1970) "Food allergy: the chemical nature of the substances eliciting symptoms." World Rev Nutr Diet, vol. 12, p. 305.

Bohe M, Borgstrom A, Genell S, Ohlsson K (1984) "Fate of intravenously injected trypsin in dog with special reference to the existence of an enteropancreatic circulation." Digestion, vol. 29, pp. 158-163.

Bornet FRJ, Fontvieille AM, Rizkalla S, Colonna P, Blayo A, Mercier C, Slama G (1989) "Insulin and glycemic responses in healthy humans to native starches processed in different ways: correlation with in vitro alpha-amylase hydrolysis." American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, vol. 50, pp. 315-323.

Bradbury JH, et al. (1984) "Digestibility of proteins of the histological components of cooked and raw rice." Br J Nutr, vol. 52, no. 3 (Nov.), pp. 507-513.

Branch DW (1992) "Physiologic adaptations of pregnancy." Am J Reprod Immunol, vol. 28, no. 3-4 (Oct.), pp. 120-122. Review.

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