STS, trying to understand

[Lavazza]

Here's a thought:

1. Pause space/time.
2. Have every entity on Earth experience the life of every other entity on Earth and become consciously aware of it.
3. Un-pause space/time.
4. Share the Love.

That's possible, if every entity would meditate.

[ubergud]

Here's a thought:

1. Pause space/time.
2. Have every entity on Earth experience the life of every other entity on Earth and become consciously aware of it.
3. Un-pause space/time.
4. Share the Love.

That's possible, if every entity would meditate.

A keen observation ... thanks for the reminder .

[ayadew]

Here's a thought:

1. Pause space/time.
2. Have every entity on Earth experience the life of every other entity on Earth and become consciously aware of it.
3. Un-pause space/time.
4. Share the Love.

That's possible, if every entity would meditate.

Yes... sadly it's counterproductive to stuff such messages down random people's throats :-/
If people are 'ready' for a message they'll search for it themselves.. a self-realized 'truth' is all that matters in this context, in the end

[pphuck]

I completely agree that there is a difference between the STS path and suffering/evil in general. But to be able to separate said differences, I would presume that a good understanding of the STS path is needed as well.

I'm personally strongly disposed to agree whole-heartedly with you. But then what lessons an entity desires to take on at any given time is another consideration all together.

Perfectly worded, thanks for adding that.

[pphuck]

Since some of you are having issues with the STO/STS semantics I thought it might help with an extensive qoute from Hatonn (April 2, 1974) regarding the "harvest of souls", without the STO/STS or postive/negative terminology.

First some earlier thoughts from ayadew, Turtle and peregrine.

The whole idea of STS and STO has only given me negative feelings; a strange paradoxal catalyst which means nothing (STO -> STS & STS -> STO) yet is a forced requirement upon someone to become fully aware of a fuller reality... I want little part of such requirements, and it cannot be understood. It becomes quite irrelevant.. I wish to serve my other-selves, but I wish to do it without any limitations and rules forced upon me.

I completely agree with Ayadew on this. I've come to feel that just the concept of being STS or STO is in itself a stumbling block of sorts. I've spent quite some time focusing on the philosophy of both paths, and the implications of "trying" to go down one road as opposed to "being" on that path. Words suck, I don't think I'm explaining myself very well... [...] I don't agree with "increasing polarity"...I agree with "increasing my awareness of all being one". Know what I mean?

A few thoughts. Personally, I take STO & STS to be very useful guidelines for measuring reality by; but I agree entirely with you that they can be fixated on and turned into a stumbling block...especially so considering how easy it is to misinterpret all this when we're viewing it through an obscurant veil. Further, I feel that checking one's heart for an impression of all information (experience) is an essential part of discerning truth. However, increasing your polarity would be one way to enhance your ability to do this.

And now the quote from Hatonn.

There is a choice to be made very shortly, and it would be preferable if all of the people of this planet understand the choice that is to be made. It will be difficult for many of the people of this planet to understand what this choice is because it is a choice that they have not considered. [...]

This choice will not be made by saying, “I choose the path of love and light,” or, “I do not choose it.” The verbal choice will mean nothing. This choice will be measured by the individual’s demonstration of his choice. This demonstration will be very easy for us of the Confederation of Planets in His Service to interpret. This choice is measured by what we term the vibratory rate of the individual. It is necessary, if an individual is to join those who make the choice of love and understanding for his rate of vibration to be above a certain minimal level. There are many now that are close to this minimum level, but due to continuing conditions of erroneous thought that prevail upon your surface, they are either fluctuating around this point or are even in some cases drifting away from the path of love and understanding. There are many whose vibratory rate at this time is sufficiently high for them to travel with no difficulty into the density of vibration that this planet is shortly to experience. [...]

In order to be most efficient, we are attempting to create first a state of seeking among the people of this planet who desire to seek. This would be those who are close to the acceptable level of vibration. Those above this level are, of course, not of as great an interest to us since they have, you might say, already made the grade. Those far below this level unfortunately cannot be helped by us at this time. We are attempting at this time to increase by a relatively small percentage the number who will be harvested into the path of love and understanding. Even a small percentage of those who dwell upon your planet is a vast number. And this is our mission, to act through groups such as this one in order to disseminate information in such a fashion that [it] may be accepted or rejected, that it may be in a state lacking what the people of your planet choose to call proof. We offer them no concrete proof, as they have a way of expressing it. We offer them truth. This is an important function of our mission—to offer truth without proof. In this way, the motivation will, in each and every case, come from within the individual. In this way, the individual vibratory rate will be increased. An offering of proof or an impressing of this truth upon an individual in such a way that he would be forced to accept it would have no usable effect upon his vibratory rate. [...]

It will be a great task. And we and you will not be entirely successful. We are able to say this, for we have had experience at harvests in the past. There will not be success in a complete way in disseminating the information that we bring to the people of Earth. There will be a complete success in the harvest of which we speak. It will be difficult to bring the truth to the understanding of the peoples of this planet, However, this will be done in one way or another. It will be up to the individual and his desire to understand and desire to seek this truth to create his vibratory change, even though it may necessarily only be slight.

[Turtle]

To above post:

In other words...it is what it is, and we're trying to help you find out for yourself more efficiently, says Hatonn.

Heh, I like that.

What a veil indeed...

[ubergud]

Here's a thought:

1. Pause space/time.
2. Have every entity on Earth experience the life of every other entity on Earth and become consciously aware of it.
3. Un-pause space/time.
4. Share the Love.

That's possible, if every entity would meditate.

Yes... sadly it's counterproductive to stuff such messages down random people's throats :-/
If people are 'ready' for a message they'll search for it themselves.. a self-realized 'truth' is all that matters in this context, in the end

I agree, although I don't think a hypothetical proposition (i.e. 'if every entity would meditate') is quite the same as considering creating a mandatory school system that encouraged meditation and forcing everyone to go to that school (i.e. 'stuffing a message down random people's throats'). Similar to Ra's quote indicating the possibility of planetary polarization in one moment while also indicating
that this was not probable.

Funny though, most people have been through some form of education or teaching that they weren't necessarily 100% on board with ... i.e. public school systems, civic systems et. al. based on location of birth. Many disagree or do not feel in complete agreement with said systems (i.e. some parents home school for said reasons), so ... when is a public education a 'forced message' ... when is civic teaching a 'forced message'; i.e. your early 'mandatory' teachings are based on location of birth and/or parents/'guardians' etc. which one does not 'have control over' (at least not 100% consciously). Ergo, based on that thought, either our current concepts of other-selves and education are either flawed or STS (and I may well strongly agree with aspects of this), or modifying these systems to include introducing the concept of meditation would be no different than what we have now. Of course some early schools do include 'quite time' as part of the daily routine, which for some may be an opportunity for meditation, if they knew what that was (key point).

Also, introducing the concept of meditation is different than making it mandatory. One of the common things I found when I first encountered channeled material (and I've read quite a bit from a variety sources) was that they all encouraged or recommended meditation. Regardless of what I thought of the rest of the material, I still found that commonality intriguing as much spiritual material is hung up differentiating itself from other material debating some philosophic minutiae, whereas meditation remained. That then expanded (through research) to encompass more material that I had considered 'inspired', that this material that seemed to come from 'learned or wise' people actually came to authors during times of meditation or extended contemplation (seeking). Should the wise then remain silent (perhaps so ... I don't know)?

Where in this world would that line be drawn then with regard to meditation? Is it something that should be taught early, or never, or up to the parents or ... that debate would get caught in infinite minutiae, but my intellect either runs in infinite circles. My heart simply considers that suggesting meditation early as a means of dealing with life's perplexing issues, emotional turmoil, etc. would be a good thing (I wish someone had given me that gift with a bit of love early on in life), and that is truth to me. I have had many worse things suggested to me early in life that I would trade that one suggestion for gratefully.

Sorry, I got caught in a tirade there considering the idea that the suggestion of meditation is akin to enforced ideology, especially against the backdrop of great irony as so much 'bad' information is 'forced' (given without request) upon us as if it is education or truth or from an authoritative source. Maybe I've just been 'ready' for the information for my entire life ... bah perhaps such is the life of a wanderer ...

Truly peace, happiness and joy as you desire it ...

[Questioner]

I found an online long, detailed presentation/conversation with someone who claimed to present the STS point of view as a counterpoint to Ra.

The source claims to be familiar with the Law of One material and to respect that it is accurate.
The source claims that spiritually, it comes from a peer of Ra, who explores the negative/STS path in lower densities including our own.
The source claims that here on earth, it is part of a manipulative group that uses hierarchical power structures to explore the nature of command and control.
The source explains how the STS life is a spiritual challenge, as is STO, but not as demanding physically as the STO path.

I'd like guidance from a moderator about whether it would be appropriate to post the link, or extracts, here. Is there a way for me to send the link to a moderator?

[Sacred Fool]

I found an online long, detailed presentation/conversation with someone who claimed to present the STS point of view as a counterpoint to Ra.

The source claims to be familiar with the Law of One material and to respect that it is accurate.
The source claims that spiritually, it comes from a peer of Ra, who explores the negative/STS path in lower densities including our own.
The source claims that here on earth, it is part of a manipulative group that uses hierarchical power structures to explore the nature of command and control.
The source explains how the STS life is a spiritual challenge, as is STO, but not as demanding physically as the STO path.

I'd like guidance from a moderator about whether it would be appropriate to post the link, or extracts, here. Is there a way for me to send the link to a moderator?

Question, Questioner: Would you mind sending the link to me?

Thanks.
~P~

---

I completely agree that there is a difference between the STS path and suffering/evil in general. But to be able to separate said differences, I would presume that a good understanding of the STS path is needed as well.

I'm personally strongly disposed to agree whole-heartedly with you. But then what lessons an entity desires to take on at any given time is another consideration all together.

Perfectly worded, thanks for adding that.

You, know, pphuck, I was lying in my hammock this afternoon taking a break, smoking a cigar and thinking about what STO's can learn from STS dynamics.

First I thought about the Phantom of the Ra'pera thread I started where I'm trying to draw out stories about the dark side of the light side. In other words, you can get hurt playing on this side of the fence as well.

Then I thought about how the road to Hell is paved with fallen gurus. The Rev. Jim Jones had one of the only racially integrated congregations in his area (a darned rare thing in Christian churches anywhere in my experience) and was way out in front in some progressive social issues. A lot of people fell in behind him for very sincere STO reasons.

So, maybe some knowledge of STSness is not such a terrible thing?

[Monica]

I'd like guidance from a moderator about whether it would be appropriate to post the link, or extracts, here. Is there a way for me to send the link to a moderator?

It's already been posted elsewhere. Being that the source is self-proclaimed STS, we'd rather not entertain them here on Bring4th. And, aside from that, it's kinda sorta against the guidelines. :-/

You can always contact the mods by clicking on our username and sending a pm.

[Questioner]

Thanks for the explanation, Monica.

[Questioner]

Looking further in the Ra material, I find this key excerpt.

Book IV, Session 85

Q: Then the service-to-others path has potentiated that which is not. Could you expand that a little bit so that I could understand it a little better?

Ra: I am Ra. If you see the energy centers in their various colors completing the spectrum you may see that the service-to-others(self) choice is one which denies the very center of the spectrum; that being universal love.

Therefore, all that is built upon the penetration of the light of harvestable quality by such entities is based upon an omission. This omission shall manifest in fourth density as the love of self; that is, the fullest expression of the orange and yellow energy centers which then are used to potentiate communication and adepthood. Command & control would be so much more efficient if strategies, battle plans, field updates etc. do not have to go through the limited channels of words and maps.


When fifth-density refinement has been achieved that which is not is carried further, the wisdom density being explored by entities which have no compassion, no universal love. They experience that which they wish by free choice, being of the earnest opinion that green-ray energy is folly.

That which is not may be seen as a self-imposed darkness in which harmony is turned into an eternal disharmony. However, that which is not cannot endure throughout the octave of third density and, as darkness eventually calls the light, so does that which is not eventually call that which is. .... May we ask that you be apprised of our intention to have spoken of the service-to-self path as the path of that which is not.

It seems to me that this means a negatively polarized entity must be empty, or nearly entirely empty, of universal love. In 3D, this means there is no "lid" on top of the self-focused lower chakras. Instead of their energy serving the self in order to then serve others, there is not anything to turn that energy outward. In 5D, this means an absence of compassion. Although not specifically mentioned here, I imagine that in 4D this means use of knowledge of each others' thoughts and emotions as a tool to build hierarchy, rather than to build community as with 4D positive.

[Sacred Fool]

I'm glad to see, going into the Hallowe'en portion of our program, that this STS thread remains UNDEAD!


Q: I've had intimations of having been incarnate in higher densities, both + & - and so feel some sympathy for both. The sense of higher negative Densities, IMO, is very well captured in this quote which I filched from this thread a few pages back.

70.7 Questioner: Why is the Higher Self reluctant to enter negative time/space?

Ra: I am Ra. The Higher Self is reluctant to allow its mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative time/space for the same basic reason an entity of your societal complex would be reluctant to enter a prison.

So, yes, the "universal love' aspect of the "green-ray center" is derogated, but the heart is employed to some degree as one means to focus energy (as in "to set your heart" on something) and as a means of social bonding in the sense that successful hierarchies claim to be working for the common good ("have your best interests at heart"). This selective and unbalanced use of the heart, I expect, is what accounts for the muddiness of the negative entity's green band on the spectrograph profile chart.

They do build communities and these are most stable when those at the top have total control, just as Iraq was far more stable when Saddam Hussein was in control as compared to now. Nothing is perfect, of course. And I suspect it is challenging to build a new community in any density of any flavor.

It's like a whole lot things, if you're *really* into it, it can be highly engaging and lots of fun. If it's not for you, then it's pretty hard to appreciate. [For example, my girlfriend tells me as much about my ham radio hobby.]

Some get into STS just out of shame or otherwise feeling more comfortable hiding in the dark than moseying around in the light. Others get off on the craft involved in the manipulation. That is, in a sense it has strong creative, artistic possibilities. Others find it a wonderful application for their cleverness. For whatever reasons, some people are able adapt to and even thrive in a prison environment.

[Richard]

Re-quoted by Pphuck ( Hatonn speaking)

“....This choice will not be made by saying, “I choose the path of love and light,” or, “I do not choose it.” The verbal choice will mean nothing. This choice will be measured by the individual’s demonstration of his choice….”

----------


Yes…make a conscious choice..then “walk the walk” (or attempt to.. in the best of your abilities..we are still human after all) during the rest of our days on this plane of existence. I believe that each day, we are presented with numerous opportunties to choose. Some choices are as small as a smile for a stranger even when you are having a bad day to..well..whatever you can imagine. Your actions bespeak your choice in ever way…in every day.

Check your ego at the door and you’ll find a positive choice in most situations. If that’s what you desire.

Richard

[Questioner]

I'm glad to see, going into the Hallowe'en portion of our program, that this STS thread remains UNDEAD!

Hahahaha!

They do build communities and these are most stable when those at the top have total control, just as Iraq was far more stable when Saddam Hussein was in control as compared to now. Nothing is perfect, of course. And I suspect it is challenging to build a new community in any density of any flavor. It's like a whole lot things, if you're *really* into it, it can be highly engaging and lots of fun.... Others get off on the craft involved in the manipulation.

I like the way you put it. Would STS even refer to this as fun, or would they see it as a challenge that gives them an opportunity to prove themselves or upgrade their skills?

Maybe I should move over my "boot camp" comment from the other STS thread.

It's interesting to me that you're interested in both ham radio and channeling. Two different ways to try to tune into a message from elsewhere, separating the signal from the noise. Do these interests build on each other for you, or is the only overlap that the same person does both of them?

[Sacred Fool]

I like the way you put it. Would STS even refer to this as fun, or would they see it as a challenge that gives them an opportunity to prove themselves or upgrade their skills?

I don't know. Might depend on the day of the week.

Maybe I should move over my "boot camp" comment from the other STS thread.

Geez, I wonder what the officer training school is like?

It's interesting to me that you're interested in both ham radio and channeling. Two different ways to try to tune into a message from elsewhere, separating the signal from the noise. Do these interests build on each other for you, or is the only overlap that the same person does both of them?

I would say that the common element here is that I have a big mouth.

The ham radio grows out of a lateral diversion having to do with community emergency preparedness. [I live in an earthquake & wildfire prone area.]

Channeling itself I can take or leave (mostly the latter). It's the ideological framework guiding inner exploration that I value most about the LOO stuff. What you say about the tuning is also true regarding another sideline, musical pursuits. However, the main thing I'm working to tune and improve the signal-to-noise ratio on is my own instrument along the lines of Ra's (or was it Q'uo's) description of the chakras being like notes of a flute for the Creatrix to play upon.

In the mean time, I have a big mouth and play out of tune. Well, we have to begin from someplace.

[Questioner]

Moderators, should the "4D STS Theory" thread get consolidated into this one?

[sylverone]

Someone previously said they were 'entering the game late'? Well, hello everyone, I'm Really Late. Pleased to meet you in the here and now! I'm going to jump back all the way back to the early posts of this thread, but first, allow me to to express my thanks.

You see, I decided to read all of the posts in this thread before I posted. As I was reading I began to have strange and intriguing thoughts about my own polarity in regards to STS/STO. Ultimately, it resulted in what feels to me like an inner awakening of some sort, but I don't understand quite what has happened; essentially, I found myself (without feeling threatened) entertaining the notion that I may be a very subtle STS individual, to the degree that I did not realize it myself, believing myself to be STO. After the resulting "inventory" of self as I examined this possibility, I have decided that this is doubtful. Yet, I still feel as if I have awakened in some spiritual aspect. In short, although I know not what has just happened to me, I thank you all for providing such wonderful catalyst. ;D Please feel free to find my personal journeying humorous, or even ridiculous! Now, onward!:

Recall that beyond mid-sixth density, the entity is completing his outer works and is turning inward to ultimately merge with the creator. Thus, he must turn his back on all the helpless souls crying for service! Does this not sound like a selfish action? Similarly, in order to merge again with the creator, the STS entity must acknowledge that there exists a greater entity with which it desires to merge and bring its gifts of distilled experience. Does this not sound selfless?

How much of the inward-outward polarity do you beleive exists at this level ? The words "turning inside out" come to mind... Consider the nature of such a transformation; how could any "turning of backs" occur at this point? Also, may I point out your use of the word "greater" as potentially unnecessary? To polarize toward STO, I would think that the concept of "equal" would be more consonant with this shift. I simply wish to bring attention to these things, consider them as you will.

I've seen people bear consequences for their behavior in events they consider unrelated. Opinion doesn't matter as much as causality..

I hesitate at this, because I'm not sure we understand very well the relationships between belief/opinion and causality. Simultaneous time also further complexifies this, because I've heard that, in the absence of linear time experience, cause and effect are somewhat interchangeable. That is, in light of the knowledge that "Everything Exists", it can be reasoned that "you trip on a rock because you are about to have a bruise". Another related notion is that which states that "collectively, all of the Infinite Individuals compose the Creator"; although most times we consider the Creator to be the "first", this is simply a convention due our limited ability to grasp what "infinitely simultaneous" really means or implies. For instance, I find it difficult to understand how free will can function on that level.

Seeing as STS's are seeking separation of themselves from the Creator, and STO's are seeking unity with the Creator, there are for sure tangible differences between getting rid of the STS or getting rid of the STO bias when going through 6d. STO's are already "on the path", whereas STS's are not.

Why seek separation when we are already separate? Why not conquer/assimilate/program all "others", in a form of unbalanced unity? Perhaps it is certain inherant flaws of this notion that requisite the need to eventually become STO?

36.12 [...] There are no negative beings which have attained the Oversoul manifestation, which is the honor/duty of the mind/body/spirit complex totality, of late sixth-density as you would term it in your time measurements. These negatively oriented mind/body/spirit complexes have a difficulty which to our knowledge has never been overcome, for after fifth-density graduation wisdom is available but must be matched with an equal amount of love. This love/light is very, very difficult to achieve in unity when following the negative path and during the earlier part of the sixth-density, society complexes of the negative orientation will choose to release the potential and leap into the sixth-density positive.

Note that Ra allows the possibility that its knowledge is not complete regarding this issue. This is very interesting to me. What if negative entities HAVE achieved true Unification within the Infinite Logos, but when it occurs, it is invisible to all but Unity; this seems perhaps in line with what STS naturemight be like at that level. The penultimate STS DEpolarizing to unity in a sudden, complete release off all the light absorbed up to that point (which would be ALL light except for the infinitely tiny final spark of Unity). This is of course, grand speculation, but if I can imagine it, does it not exist within/as the Infinite Creator?

I have sometime joked (or, rather, sort of half-joked) that whenever I hand over the report of my sojourns to the Creator, I'm going to give the Creator an earful! I intend to complain loud and clear that suffering isn't fun, and see if something can't be done about it in future Creations! Surely the Creator can think of some other ways that don't include suffering! I know the mechanics of how things work in our neck of the woods were designed by the Logos, so the Logos will definitely get an earful too!
[*snip*]
Yup...if the Creator wants to absorb my experience, then I've got some ideas that I'd like considered!

Hehe! There is much irony in what you are saying, and how it is said. If you are not completely aware of this already, then consider that to make a complaint, you must first believe the one to whom you complain to be "greater", or at least "separate". Ultimately, it seems that you are "blaming yourself", in an ,shall we say, Infinitely Roundabout fashion! I don't know how serious you were, but you said "half-joked", so I figured I would attempt to address the "half serious" side.

I'm interested in this discussion as it pertains to why there is evil at all, but I think trying to really understand the mechanics of how STS entities polarize might not produce much fruit, being that covering that topic was not an objective of our Confederation friends. There just isn't a lot of data about it in the Law of One, so most of what we say would be based on speculation.

Perhaps it wasn't touched upon much because it is something that we will ultimately come to understand, just as we come to understand all things; they simply felt that that information was not of a time-sensitive nature? After all, isn't a large reason that any of the information exists at all supposed to be because it is related to the harvest at hand?

Why is faith so important? Many religions put a premium on faith. But perhaps that should be a separate thread...

It looks like I get to mine a quote for the first time!

3.9 Questioner: I am reminded of the statement—approximately—that if you had faith to move a mountain, the mountain would move. This seems to be approximately what you were saying. That if you are fully aware of the Law of One, you would be able to do these things. Is that correct?

Ra: I am Ra. The vibratory distortion of sound, faith, is perhaps one of the stumbling blocks between those of what we may call the infinite path and those of the finite proving/understanding.

You are precisely correct in your understanding of the congruency of faith and intelligent infinity; however, one is a spiritual term, the other more acceptable perhaps to the conceptual framework distortions of those who seek with measure and pen.

Also, a personal note; for me there is at least one thing in this Universe which must absolutely be taken on faith. This one point of faith between me and the Creator is that I will never be absolutely destroyed or imprisoned. Ultimately, if one thinks deeply enough into this, what this simply means is that my ultimate point of faith is that Unity exists, and that All is already in Unity. After all, as Ra has stated, "there is no nothingness".

Should the wise then remain silent (perhaps so ... I don't know)?

The should/shouldn't polarity construct is connected with a lot of confusion, so I will choose to answer by saying this; there some who, having wisdom/understanding, find it within their nature to speak about it, and there are some who find it in their their nature to be more silent. Both types could be either STS or STO. Some of the latter may choose silence out of a knowledge that ultimately, all will come to understand these things, as All are One, and thusly already have.

So, maybe some knowledge of STSness is not such a terrible thing?

How will we attain Unity without becoming All Things, and thusly knowing All Things?

-----------------
Now, to place myself more directly on the original topic:

But, why is it that a seemingly loving creator (my naivete again?) would seek to know elements of itself that is harmful to itself (STS actions as perceived by the victim)

The difficulty here is not that the creator is unloving, but that you are operating under the notion that the Creator CAN hurt itself. Within the Grand Unity, surely all pain exists, yet so does all healing. If your mind dwells on the pain, then you can forget the healing. Do you remember Ra's exercises? Consider the first excercise:

To begin to master the concept of mental disciplines it is necessary to examine the self. The polarity of your dimension must be internalized. Where you find patience within your mind you must consciously find the corresponding impatience and vice versa. Each thought a being has, has in its turn an antithesis. The disciplines of the mind involve, first of all, identifying both those things of which you approve and those things of which you disapprove within yourself, and then balancing each and every positive and negative charge with its equal. The mind contains all things. Therefore, you must discover this completeness within yourself.

The second mental discipline is acceptance of the completeness within your consciousness. It is not for a being of polarity in the physical consciousness to pick and choose among attributes, thus building the roles that cause blockages and confusions in the already distorted mind complex. Each acceptance smoothes part of the many distortions that the faculty you call judgment engenders.

Where you find pain within yourself, call to mind the corresponding relief. Then, accept both the pain and the relief by holding them both at once, bringing them together, and find the love within this unity. Perhaps this will be helpful to you, because it seems that your difficulty in understanding regards pain itself more than the STS/STO polarity. Perhaps I am misled, however.

I apologize for the massive size of this post. Thanks to everyone!

[Questioner]

Someone previously said they were 'entering the game late'? Well, hello everyone, I'm Really Late. Pleased to meet you in the here and now!

Hi Sylverone! One of the comforting concepts of the Law of One is that we have all the time in the universe to comprehend what is important. If we get confused or distracted along the way, we will simply repeat the lesson opportunities until we learn the lesson.

Here are some perspectives from your fellow explorer.

Worse case scenario is that you miss the upcoming Harvest, because Harvest would be uncomfortable for you and more than you are ready for now. In that case, you would simply repeat the present cycle, giving you further opportunities to evolve in whatever direction you choose. If you later realize you would prefer to make a different choice, you can do so at any time.

According to Ra, the Harvest decision is actually something we make for ourselves, based on whether or not we are ready for a different type of intensity in evolution.

This understanding means that whenever you start to learn is the perfect time. Furthermore, if any particular entity or group - such as myself, this forum, Ra, L/L Research, or anyone else - expresses the truth in a way that is not resonant or suitable for you, no problem. The truth will reach you anyway, in a way that is compatible with what you need to learn and experience for your own evolution.

Please feel free to find my personal journeying humorous, or even ridiculous!

Actually, I find it admirable!

Now, to place myself more directly on the original topic

You seemed to me to be on-topic all the way through.

I apologize for the massive size of this post. Thanks to everyone!

It is a big universe to try to digest in a few bites!

You have a lot of material here and as I have time throughout the next day or few days, I look forward to responding.

[Lavazza]

Pleased to meet you in the here and now! I'm going to jump back all the way back to the early posts of this thread, but first, allow me to to express my thanks.

Thanks to you as well for posting! And welcome to the forum if I haven't welcomed you already. I appreciate the offering of your perspectives, you seem to have an innate ability to see all things from the standpoint of oneness. Once you do that the whole STO / STS concept seems a bit transient, no?

cheers!

[pphuck]

Seeing as STS's are seeking separation of themselves from the Creator, and STO's are seeking unity with the Creator, there are for sure tangible differences between getting rid of the STS or getting rid of the STO bias when going through 6d. STO's are already "on the path", whereas STS's are not.

Why seek separation when we are already separate? Why not conquer/assimilate/program all "others", in a form of unbalanced unity? Perhaps it is certain inherant flaws of this notion that requisite the need to eventually become STO?

I'm not sure I understand your question, at least not from the Law of One perspective that entities in 3d are not separate from the Creator. What Ra says is that the perception of most 3d entities living on the planet Earth is that there is a separation; caused by what Ra calls a veil - not that there is an actual separation.

Out of this perspective, then, what I suggest that the STS path is about is a separation from this unity with the Creator.

36.12 [...] There are no negative beings which have attained the Oversoul manifestation, which is the honor/duty of the mind/body/spirit complex totality, of late sixth-density as you would term it in your time measurements. These negatively oriented mind/body/spirit complexes have a difficulty which to our knowledge has never been overcome, for after fifth-density graduation wisdom is available but must be matched with an equal amount of love. This love/light is very, very difficult to achieve in unity when following the negative path and during the earlier part of the sixth-density, society complexes of the negative orientation will choose to release the potential and leap into the sixth-density positive.

Note that Ra allows the possibility that its knowledge is not complete regarding this issue. This is very interesting to me. What if negative entities HAVE achieved true Unification within the Infinite Logos, but when it occurs, it is invisible to all but Unity; this seems perhaps in line with what STS naturemight be like at that level. The penultimate STS DEpolarizing to unity in a sudden, complete release off all the light absorbed up to that point (which would be ALL light except for the infinitely tiny final spark of Unity). This is of course, grand speculation, but if I can imagine it, does it not exist within/as the Infinite Creator?

I'm not so sure that unity with the Creator is the only way out of this octave of densities.

So, maybe some knowledge of STSness is not such a terrible thing?

How will we attain Unity without becoming All Things, and thusly knowing All Things?

I might also suggest adding the posibility that the path of separation is an extension of the Creators will to experience more -- an extension of the original separation to make room from the creation to exist in.

[Peregrinus]

Three possibilities at this harvest:
1) STOS* - Millions of mind/spirit/body complexes working in tune with each other to create and live a unity of love. This, to me, sounds like heaven. These mind/spirit/body complexes will remain on earth in its 4th density reconfiguration.

2) STS - When this harvest comes, if the numbers Ra gave us as to typical estimates for harvest, 10% will be STS. This means whatever planet STS are relocated to, there will be 680,000 mind/spirit/body complexes all in competition with each other. To me that seems to be hell. These mind/spirit/body complexes will be relocated to another 4th density planet.

3) Not enough polarity either direction. These mind/spirit/body complexes will be relocated to another 3rd density planet for another cycle.

Those not incarnate at the time of the harvest will be in stasis, and will go to the light the same as the rest of us. At any rate, all will be unified with the One Creator. There is no good or bad in any polarity, though STS is more difficult. The important thing in this density is to decide which way you wish to go, and work towards that goal.

*I say STOS, service to other-selves, because saying STO, service to others, is implying separation where there is not.

[sylverone]

Worse case scenario is that you miss the upcoming Harvest, because Harvest would be uncomfortable for you and more than you are ready for now. In that case, you would simply repeat the present cycle, giving you further opportunities to evolve in whatever direction you choose. If you later realize you would prefer to make a different choice, you can do so at any time.

When I said I was "entering the game late" I was actually referring to my entering this particular thread discussion. However, never fear, because I have also "entered the game late" in the way you spoke of. I only just turned 18 this year, and I began to emerge from a Biblical Christian perspective just about 3 to 4 years ago. So when I see that number '2012' coming at me so soon after I had just become aware of it, it's sorta like "whoa, Nelly!" So thank you for the encouraging words.

Thanks to you as well for posting! And welcome to the forum if I haven't welcomed you already. I appreciate the offering of your perspectives, you seem to have an innate ability to see all things from the standpoint of oneness. Once you do that the whole STO / STS concept seems a bit transient, no?

Yes, this is quite true. Over the past several years, this ability/perspective seems to have awakened in me, although from my viewpoint now, I can see how my previous realizations and awakenings have built up to this (and continue to build). Pain, as well, becomes more transient, which can provide great relief. I feel hypocritical at times, because I haven't relly experienced great pain within this lifetime (never broken a bone, never lost a loved one), but I feel that pain and I hold a great history together, which lends to me understandings which many find difficult to grasp on this plane. It is a humbling thought, that our "talents" and "wisdoms" in this lifetime are probably the result of entire other lifetimes spent learning those things, sometimes one at a time.

Seeing as STS's are seeking separation of themselves from the Creator, and STO's are seeking unity with the Creator, there are for sure tangible differences between getting rid of the STS or getting rid of the STO bias when going through 6d. STO's are already "on the path", whereas STS's are not.

Why seek separation when we are already separate? Why not conquer/assimilate/program all "others", in a form of unbalanced unity? Perhaps it is certain inherant flaws of this notion that requisite the need to eventually become STO?

I'm not sure I understand your question, at least not from the Law of One perspective that entities in 3d are not separate from the Creator. What Ra says is that the perception of most 3d entities living on the planet Earth is that there is a separation; caused by what Ra calls a veil - not that there is an actual separation.

Out of this perspective, then, what I suggest that the STO path is about is a separation from this unity with the Creator.

In that last sentence; did you mean 'STS'?

I understood your suggestion, and my question was hypothetical. I was meaning to suggest that STS beings tend to perceive things from a perspective of separation. That is, the STS being might already perceive all else as seperate; so, rather than seeking to seperate from that which they already perceive as "other", might seek to conquer or assimilate. Even though the STS entity may know *of* ar *about* Unity, and the evidence of it, doesn't the STS path seem to center around a certain denial of it?

Perhaps this is why STS supposedly cannot approach Unity beyond a certain point; because, to do so they must admit that true Unity actually exists, and the aviodance of this realization/admittance is central to the STS path.

I guess a simpler way for me to say this is that the STS path centers around maintaining seperation rather than causing it. A denial of love, which is the understanding of unity. I feel I may have missed something, however...

I'm not so sure that unity with the Creator is the only way out of this octave of densities.

Interesting thought! I'm surprised I hadn't considered this further... Mostly I have focused on the two extremes; Unity through unification with the infinite, and Unity through dissolution into the infinitely small.

I have considered the following possibility; what if a being became so strongly STS that their "black-hole" nature led them to an ultimate expression of seperation; an "existential suicide" of sorts, in which they reached a critical mass and collapsed under it (by their own conscious choice). I don't know if this would be connected to the literal formation of black holes, but I find it poetic in a sense; that the ultimate expression of service to self may be simply to cease to exist in any outward expression, and deny the universe the experience of your beingness any further.

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Also, another note concerning earlier information. There seemed to be some confusion about this quote from Ra:

To attain fifty-one percent dedication to the welfare of other-selves is as difficult as attaining a grade of five percent dedication to otherselves.

Allow me to hopefully clear any confusion that still remains on this issue. 5% dedication to otherselves would mean that an entity was 95% STS, and therefore polarized enough to "graduate". So Ra appears to simply be saying that it is equally difficult to attain harvestability toward either polarity.

[Questioner]

Sylverone, I am currently re-reading the Ra materials with special attention to the description of the polarity between STS and STO. I wrote a bit of an essay about all this and would like to share it with you.

I would like to compare my interpretations of this material with yours. As you mentioned, you might well have not only 3 or 4 years of study in this lifetime, but a long history before that of studying this material. I believe that tremendous pain is not always necessary to awaken spiritual understanding, and it's certainly not to be sought out for that purpose. Ideally if it does occur, it is used as a spiritual catalyst.

At first this seemed rather complicated to me, but I now see it in a way that provides my mind with a few simple pieces of mental scaffolding. The fundamental question is how we interact with others.

The STS approach is to design a hierarchy, and have roles that could be described as higher or lower, based on control and a chain of command. This happens not only with others, but also within our own thoughts, emotions, mind: self-discipline, for the self, values some inner experiences higher than others.

The STO approach is to grow a network, with a flexible and changing variety of ways to interact. As for the inner life, acceptance includes self-acceptance including emotions, thoughts, experiences that might be labeled as "lesser."

Both polarities can be very efficient to accomplish tasks within one's own life, and with groups. "Stuck in the middle," neither controlling anything nor accepting that one can't control anything, is the worst place to be and ultimately makes a person sick and useless.

There is a reason for the different approaches. This reason is that STO prefers to exclude "green ray" activity from its own experience. Green ray refers to an open-hearted acceptance of all, including one's self and others and all experiences, and an open-hearted sharing of all of one's self. In this equality, there could not be positions "above" or "below." Obviously if this is taken to the ultimate extent, there would be such equality that no hierarchy could survive. I really don't see how this could be "equal" in the sense you describe.

The Ra material describes a primal Unity, which desires to experience Diversity and Love. The primary creations include Light and Free Will. Beyond a few basic parameters, what we do with the resources we receive is up to us.

Why seek separation when we are already separate? Why not conquer/assimilate/program all "others", in a form of unbalanced unity? Perhaps it is certain inherant flaws of this notion that requisite the need to eventually become STO?

Ultimately, green-ray acceptance will be needed for further spiritual evolution. Until then, the great power of hierarchies is also their great weakness: the rigidity of structure and behavior. When an earthquake or storm comes, sometimes a building with a flexible frame, or even trees that are not interlocked, can ride it out. Impressive edifices and precision-gridded structures can collapse from the shock.

What if negative entities HAVE achieved true Unification within the Infinite Logos, but when it occurs, it is invisible to all but Unity

As I see it, because unity requires the inclusion of all things, including "green ray" energy. Hierarchy involves the limitation and exclusion of some things. There is no way to reach unity by rejecting some ingredients of unity.

If you are not completely aware of this already, then consider that to make a complaint, you must first believe the one to whom you complain to be "greater", or at least "separate". Ultimately, it seems that you are "blaming yourself", in an ,shall we say, Infinitely Roundabout fashion!

That is a clever approach. Some people have used it to conclude that human will is greater than any concept of God. These people probably aren't fans of the Law of One.

I see that Ra thinks an understanding of the STS/STO choice as primary at this time, because polarization on one side or the other is what leads to the capacity for Harvest. There actually is a lot of material on the subject. I'm not sure why you said there's not much material about this.

Also, a personal note; for me there is at least one thing in this Universe which must absolutely be taken on faith. This one point of faith between me and the Creator is that I will never be absolutely destroyed or imprisoned.

I see that as something greatly respected in the Law of One material. If my understanding about STO as hierarchy is correct, you would ultimately reject any hierarchy you don't control, but you would be willing to be in a hierarchy that controls or manipulates or rejects someone else. This would cause a contradiction between the rules applied by you for you, and for others, wouldn't it?

what if a being became so strongly STS that their "black-hole" nature

While I appreciate the metaphor, I think this contradicts what Ra had to say about black holes as a condensation of love.

Do my interpretations here make sense? How do they relate to your interpretations?

[pphuck]

In that last sentence; did you mean 'STS'?

Yes, my bad - I corrected my post.

[sylverone]

This reason is that STO prefers to exclude "green ray" activity from its own experience

If my understanding about STO as hierarchy is correct, you would ultimately reject any hierarchy you don't control...

I believe you mean STS in the first, and I wanted to point out the second because I'm not sure you typed exactly what you meant. I understand your meanings; I just figured I'd point them out for the benefit of those who may read this in the future.

I believe that tremendous pain is not always necessary to awaken spiritual understanding, and it's certainly not to be sought out for that purpose. Ideally if it does occur, it is used as a spiritual catalyst.

Regarding this issue, I simply do not know. From observation, it seems that pain is one of the primary catalysts within our current circumstance. I have seen many people, including myself, struggling with pain. To cover my perspective on this issue would probably take up more space than I wish to use in this post, so perhaps I should start a topic about it soon. Suffice it to say, I have learned a lot from my encounters with it, and my efforts to understand it and learn from it have been highly rewarding. I have found that the more I learn from pain, the less pain I feel in my daily existance. My experience has been that it cannot be completely avoided, and that it will heal and grant us wisdom and understanding if we make the effort to search for the lessons contained.

Ultimately, green-ray acceptance will be needed for further spiritual evolution. Until then, the great power of hierarchies is also their great weakness: the rigidity of structure and behavior. When an earthquake or storm comes, sometimes a building with a flexible frame, or even trees that are not interlocked, can ride it out. Impressive edifices and precision-gridded structures can collapse from the shock.
...
Hierarchy involves the limitation and exclusion of some things. There is no way to reach unity by rejecting some ingredients of unity.

I agree. Ultimately, all must be.

I see that Ra thinks an understanding of the STS/STO choice as primary at this time, because polarization on one side or the other is what leads to the capacity for Harvest. There actually is a lot of material on the subject. I'm not sure why you said there's not much material about this.

Firstly, I must say that I am not actually that far into reading the Ra material. I read up to about session ten about a year or less ago, and much of what I say is my own personal understanding based on my limited reading of Ra and other souces, and the understanding I feel I've gained from "awakenings" that have resulted along the way (and various quotes I have read from within the forums). So when I said that, I was responding hypothetically, based on the premise presented by the comment I was responding to. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I am currently in the process of beginning to read Ra again, and have just reached session 11.
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In general, your perspective on these things seems to match mine, and yes, they do make sense. Concerning the black-hole issue, I have not reached that session yet, so I do not yet know about that. In some cases I use the concept of white-hole/black-hole to compare the STO and STS nature, but I realize that this is oversimplified, and thus not accurate in some ways.

Concerning STS as compared to STO, I believe it is important to remember that in most cases, the entity is only partially polarized in a particular direction. Because STO results in STS, it seems that complete STO polarization is not polarization as much as it is a depolarization into STA, service to All as One. 51% STO means that we are still overtly serving ourselves to a high degree. So that basically means a 51% emobodiment of love, I think, and therefore a 49% view remains of "others as seperate". This is enough to graduate, but it is also a sign that we still have much understanding to eventually gain.

I was just thinking; in retrospect to what has been said in this thread, it seems to me that most mainstream religions, at least in the way they are usually taught, seem to inhabit the "neutral zone" between STO and STS, or the "sinkhole of indifference" as Ra put it. My experience is with Christianity, and I personally found that I had to "grow out of" a completely literal faith-based following of that religion to persue further understanding. I did not know of any Christian sources which could provide me deeper understanding, because they all relied on the Bible so heavily, and at church I was starting to simply hear repeats of things which I had come to understand. There did not appear to be a "next level" within the church, so with the faith I mentioned earlier, I decided that if God was as I believed, I would not be destroyed or imprisoned forever for honestly seeking greater understanding of God beyond Christianity. That choice was pivotal, and has lead me through many lessons over the last few years.

Anyway, it isn't my intention to write my autobiography here ;D , but I think that note about religion is interesting.

[ExperiencedGhost]

If I may give an example of how I see the difference between STS and STO... One day at the trainstation I sat down and saw how a girl around 16-17 y. was going around asking only for 5 € (almost like 5 $). Nobody wanted to give her even 1 cent. Than she stood before me as asked me 5 € "to get home". For 5 seconds I guess I did not speek I only watched her eyes and movements. What I saw was fear, just real fear. She was normal dressed, she was clearly not homeless. Her eyes looked very normal, much chance she didn't took drugs. What I felt was real fear when she said "to get home". I did grab what I had of coins in my pocket and I gave that to her. She looked at it and she was counting with her eyes but like someone who try to survive (that's how I can explain that). I could see this clearly. She thanked me 2 times and did go to someone else and I could hear her asking 1 € instead of 5 € ! This sounded not like someone who wanted money for booze.
If you compared this with the reactions of other people, they even don't want to hear what she has to say because they saw her asking something to the other people. At least they could have heard what she wanted, don't you think ?
Just not wanting to hear because they wanted to keep their money for themselves... STS. My act was an act from the heart, not one of caculation if you know what I mean. In my mind I wished her a good return home.

[thefool]

STS entity is interested in accumulating power others at all costs. It will make more sense if you watch the behavior of any politician. It is about serving the self without regards for others. It is the love of self above all else. Me me me .... and me... It comes naturally to some people. To sacrifice anything to serve the self. It makes sense as a choice.

It is easy to change polarity when you have high polarity.

[Lighthead]

I get the feeling that the STS crowd is considered a different crows because Ra states "To attain fifty-one percent dedication to the welfare of other-selves is as difficult as attaining a grade of five percent dedication to otherselves" Which seems to contradict itself. Unless the missing hyphen means anything... It's like saying running 20 kilometers per hour is as hard as running 5. Unless he means that 5% is as hard for the STS guys as 51% is to STO oriented guys.

Ra was basically implying that 3D entities are essentially STS. The universe is throwing you a bone by making it relatively easier to graduate STO and giving you some resistance for something that is is relatively easier like graduating STS. In other words, being something like 5% STO would be virtually impossible for a 3D entity.

[Aion]

I get the feeling that the STS crowd is considered a different crows because Ra states "To attain fifty-one percent dedication to the welfare of other-selves is as difficult as attaining a grade of five percent dedication to otherselves" Which seems to contradict itself. Unless the missing hyphen means anything... It's like saying running 20 kilometers per hour is as hard as running 5. Unless he means that 5% is as hard for the STS guys as 51% is to STO oriented guys.

Ra was basically implying that 3D entities are essentially STS. The universe is throwing you a bone by making it relatively easier to graduate STO and giving you some resistance for something that is is relatively easier like graduating STS. In other words, being something like 5% STO would be virtually impossible for a 3D entity.

Not according to Ra's words:

17.33 Questioner: Why is the negative path so much more difficult a path to attain harvestability upon than the positive?

Ra: I am Ra. This is due to a distortion of the Law of One which indicates that the gateway to intelligent infinity be a gateway at the end of a strait and narrow path as you may call it. To attain fifty-one percent dedication to the welfare of other-selves is as difficult as attaining a grade of five percent dedication to other-selves. The, shall we say, sinkhole of indifference is between those two.