STS, trying to understand

[Turtle]

Hi there.

Just a thought: At which station you got on this train is one question. What your goals were is another. Perhaps, like myself, your self found itself more tilted towards wisdom than love and hopped on board in order to learn more about the primacy of love? [It's a stinkin' hard lesson, let me tell ya!!] {{Just kidding, of course.}}

~P

Cool idea, heh. Whatever came before is unknown to me now, and that idea is just as viable as any other I've thought of before. I like it though!

[pphuck]

I will also share with you that I think Ra inadvertently misleads us when he says that STS entities must become STO in order to progress beyond mid-sixth density. It is true that they must embrace STO in order to progress, but so too must STO embrace STS, IMHO. Recall that beyond mid-sixth density, the entity is completing his outer works and is turning inward to ultimately merge with the creator. Thus, he must turn his back on all the helpless souls crying for service! Does this not sound like a selfish action? Similarly, in order to merge again with the creator, the STS entity must acknowledge that there exists a greater entity with which it desires to merge and bring its gifts of distilled experience. Does this not sound selfless?

So to me it seems that from the point of view of an STO entity the STS are becoming STO at mid 6D, and from the perspective of the STS entity, the STO are becoming STS at mid 6D. In truth, both are becoming balanced and have transcended polarity. They have met, as it were, in the middle.

Seeing as STS's are seeking separation of themselves from the Creator, and STO's are seeking unity with the Creator, there are for sure tangible differences between getting rid of the STS or getting rid of the STO bias when going through 6d. STO's are already "on the path", whereas STS's are not.

[pphuck]

Questioner: Why is the negative path so much more difficult to attain harvestability upon than the positive?

Ra: I am Ra. This is due to a distortion of the Law of One which indicates that the gateway to intelligent infinity be a gateway at the end of a straight and narrow path as you may call it. To attain fifty-one percent dedication to the welfare of other-selves is as difficult as attaining a grade of five percent dedication to otherselves. The, shall we say, sinkhole of indifference is between those two.

The questioner assumes that the negative path is harde, and Ra does not contradict! Instead he answers from that premise. Although I can't figure out exactly what he's saying.

Apparently it's easier to go STO than to go STS. Which is absolutely logical if you look at what happens in the world if you close your heart. It's basically like trying to navigate unfamiliar surroundings with your eyes closed. You tend to bump into things you do not see.

I get the feeling that the STS crowd is considered a different crows because Ra states "To attain fifty-one percent dedication to the welfare of other-selves is as difficult as attaining a grade of five percent dedication to otherselves" Which seems to contradict itself. Unless the missing hyphen means anything... It's like saying running 20 kilometers per hour is as hard as running 5. Unless he means that 5% is as hard for the STS guys as 51% is to STO oriented guys.

It's interesting to hear it stated this way, mathmatically speaking you are completely correct! It would seem to make no sense at all, at first glance. I think if you place your beginning point in between 5 and 51% it makes more sense. That is to say, perhaps your average, spiritually un-enlightened or sleeping entity who is not overly STO or STS in his actions rests somewhere close to 23% STO. Making conscious efforts to go higher or lower than that number is difficult, and becomes more difficult the further you move away from 23%. In that sense it would be equally hard regardless of what you do. (and I am assuming this is only true of thrird density). Just some speculation. Cool train of thought you brought up!

I believe this is easier to understand from the perspective of 2d entities progressing into 3d, and then onwards to 4d.

13.21 Questioner: Then how does the second density progress to the third?

Ra: I am Ra. The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.

In 2d, an entity becomes aware of self. In 3d an entity becomes aware of the STS/STO choice. An entity just becoming aware of self is in general not going to be of the STO kind straight out of the box, first of all it needs to learn how to handle the self-awarness/consciousness.

I wouldn't say that they're explicitly "23% STO", but they'd be pretty far away from the needed 51%.

[3D Sunset]

Seeing as STS's are seeking separation of themselves from the Creator, and STO's are seeking unity with the Creator, there are for sure tangible differences between getting rid of the STS or getting rid of the STO bias when going through 6d. STO's are already "on the path", whereas STS's are not.

Hi pphuck (OTS, please help me with your preferred pronunciation. I'm having a little trouble finding one that I can use in mixed company),

Welcome to the forum. Pleases note that I didn't say that there weren't tangible differences between getting rid of STS and getting rid of STO, I just pointed out that in order to transcend polarity and move on, there would need to be a migration, by both, toward the middle and an associated embracing, by both, of some of the other's characteristics.

Your choice of the phrase "already 'on the path'" actually hints at my reason for bringing it up. It seems to me that by holding on to the notion that one path is the "right" path to the One Infinite Creator can lead to problems of elitism and ego that are not conducive to STO polarization. Similarly, such a perception is frequently associated with Yellow ray attachments to a group outcome - not unlike rooting for your favorite football team (this is an interesting sidebar by the way, as I recall for years while watching my college football team play I would feel a "buzzing" in my chest that would almost make me ill, especially during a close game. Years later, I came to realize that these feelings were a blockage in Yellow Ray - solar plexus chakra - due to my ego attachment with the outcome of the game).

I certainly do not mean to imply that this may be an issue for you with respect to STO, I merely am pointing it all for everyone's consideration. In reality, it matters not which path is "closer to God", only that both are equally favored by him and that both ultimately lead back to him even though the two paths traverse vastly different terrain.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[ubergud]

More thoughts:

If STS is centered around separation (i.e. not unity) and STO is centered around heading toward unity, then if it takes 51% STO or 95% STS to gain sufficient polarization to 'graduate' to 4D ... if STS were to attempt to maintain separation, wouldn't preventing either 51%STO or 95%STS be the STS goal ... i.e. if entities ('i.e. en mass in the Earth environment') were tempted into a state where they never polarized ... that would be a kind of permanent limbo state ... which in essence would in space-time appear to be perpetual separation (i.e. lack of choice) ... which makes the percentages ... odd ... (well, they are odd ... but ... strange :-P). However, this tends to create a wrinkle or paradox in the concept of Free Will in my estimation ...

That said, the Joshiah material is information from an entity that has indicated that it not experienced 3D, which also creates a wrinkle in the whole STO/STS 3D notion entirely ... i.e. continuing the logic, experiencing 3D itself is a choice that not all entities (or fragments of the creator) choose to experience ... I find that notion somewhat liberating from the sub-conscious dogma associated with discussions of polarization.

It would seem that the 3D illusion is chosen (by entities or 'fragments') as a faster (or different at least) way of 'contemplating' the ways in which a particular entity will be able to serve the creator that is beneficial to both the 'fragment' and the 'one'. The reason it is 'faster' is it takes the 'knowing' out of the equation as is necessitated within an illusion of separation.

The problem/conundrum/paradox with the discussions of graduation et. all in my opinion is that it implies a Judge/Teacher/etc. And 'who' I wonder might that be ... and for what purpopse ... I don't know but somehow I suspect reflective surfaces may be required (hi all you reflective surfaces) ... may we find peace, happiness and joy when we meet ...

P.S. I know we will ... I like happy endings ... :-P

[Lavazza]

That said, the Joshiah material is information from an entity that has indicated that it not experienced 3D, which also creates a wrinkle in the whole STO/STS 3D notion entirely ... i.e. continuing the logic, experiencing 3D itself is a choice that not all entities (or fragments of the creator) choose to experience ... I find that notion somewhat liberating from the sub-conscious dogma associated with discussions of polarization.

The problem/conundrum/paradox with the discussions of graduation et. all in my opinion is that it implies a Judge/Teacher/etc. And 'who' I wonder might that be ... and for what purpopse ... I don't know but somehow I suspect reflective surfaces may be required (hi all you reflective surfaces) ... may we find peace, happiness and joy when we meet ...

Hey Ubergud, yeah- I'm sure there are exceptions to everything, including 3rd density incarnation. It seems freewill is the most important distortion of God, so the possibility certainly must exist. Has Joshiah ever explained in detail who he is, where he's from, etc?

As to judges in terms of density graduation, yes they exist. They are ourselves. Carla has used the analogy of a staircase before. 'The Steps of Light'. In which we walk upon, climbing higher and higher towards the light (god?). We only stop climbing when the light becomes less of a comfort and more of a discomfort (too bright!). Where we stop determines which density we will incarnate next.

It may well be that focusing on the steps of light is more helpful then focusing on percentages. I agree with others that giving us percentages like that is a large disservice, and it even occurred to me that Ra may have inadvertently violated our free will once again in giving them.

---

Thinking further along the lines of free will.. Do you think the following thought experiment makes sense?

Suppose that after this incarnation is over (or perhaps before it is over) I decide consciously with my free will to merge immediately with the creator, skipping all densities of experience. Could I do this? And if not- why?

[βαθμιαίος]

If STS is centered around separation (i.e. not unity) and STO is centered around heading toward unity, then if it takes 51% STO or 95% STS to gain sufficient polarization to 'graduate' to 4D ... if STS were to attempt to maintain separation, wouldn't preventing either 51%STO or 95%STS be the STS goal ... i.e. if entities ('i.e. en mass in the Earth environment') were tempted into a state where they never polarized ... that would be a kind of permanent limbo state ... which in essence would in space-time appear to be perpetual separation (i.e. lack of choice) ... which makes the percentages ... odd ... (well, they are odd ... but ... strange :-P). However, this tends to create a wrinkle or paradox in the concept of Free Will in my estimation ...

Interesting thoughts. They reminded me of the following mildly baffling (why must the information be withheld?) answers from Ra:

Questioner: Can you tell me what percentage of [the aware planets in our galaxy] are third, fourth, fifth, sixth etc., density?

Ra: I am Ra. A percentage seventeen for first density, a percentage twenty for second density, a percentage twenty-seven for third density, a percentage sixteen for fourth density, a percentage six for fifth density. The other information must be withheld.

...snip...

Questioner: Can you tell me what percentage of the third-, fourth-, and fifth-density planets which you have spoken of here are polarized negatively towards service to self?

Ra: I am Ra. This is not a query to which we may speak given the Law of Confusion.

[Sacred Fool]

Interesting thoughts. They reminded me of the following mildly baffling (why must the information be withheld?) answers from Ra:

Questioner: Can you tell me what percentage of [the aware planets in our galaxy] are third, fourth, fifth, sixth etc., density?

Ra: I am Ra. A percentage seventeen for first density, a percentage twenty for second density, a percentage twenty-seven for third density, a percentage sixteen for fourth density, a percentage six for fifth density. The other information must be withheld.

...snip...

Questioner: Can you tell me what percentage of the third-, fourth-, and fifth-density planets which you have spoken of here are polarized negatively towards service to self?

Ra: I am Ra. This is not a query to which we may speak given the Law of Confusion.

[/quote]


The Law of Confusion works very well, doesn't it?

[βαθμιαίος]

The Law of Confusion works very well, doesn't it?

Yes, indeed! It's amazing how unhelpful Ra could be when it/they chose to.

[pphuck]

Pleases note that I didn't say that there weren't tangible differences between getting rid of STS and getting rid of STO, I just pointed out that in order to transcend polarity and move on, there would need to be a migration, by both, toward the middle and an associated embracing, by both, of some of the other's characteristics.

I beg to differ, at least in the way I interpret Ra.

78.2 [...] In sixth density, the density of unity, the positive and negative paths must needs take in each other for all now must be seen as love/light and light/love. This is not difficult for the positive polarity which sends love and light to all other-selves. It is difficult enough for service-to-self polarized entities that at some point the negative polarity is abandoned.

36.12 [...] There are no negative beings which have attained the Oversoul manifestation, which is the honor/duty of the mind/body/spirit complex totality, of late sixth-density as you would term it in your time measurements. These negatively oriented mind/body/spirit complexes have a difficulty which to our knowledge has never been overcome, for after fifth-density graduation wisdom is available but must be matched with an equal amount of love. This love/light is very, very difficult to achieve in unity when following the negative path and during the earlier part of the sixth-density, society complexes of the negative orientation will choose to release the potential and leap into the sixth-density positive.

Therefore, the Oversoul which makes its understanding available to all who are ready for such aid is towards the positive. However, the free will of the individual is paramount, and any guidance given by the Higher Self may be seen in either the positive or negative polarity depending upon the choice of a mind/body/spirit complex.

36.15 [...] The sixth-density negative entity is extremely wise. It observes the spiritual entropy occurring due to the lack of ability to express the unity of sixth-density. Thus, loving the Creator and realizing at some point that the Creator is not only self but other-self as self, this entity consciously chooses an instantaneous energy reorientation so that it may continue its evolution.

Someone coming from 5d positive into 6d positive will have to balance Love with Wisdom, someone coming from 5d negative into 6d has more work to do.

What you're saying is true, but it's not the whole truth. I would suggest that you're mixing positive/negative with love/wisdom in a way that doesn't make sense from a 6d perspective. Remember that, for example, in 5d "intensifying" is more important than "polarizing".

Your choice of the phrase "already 'on the path'" actually hints at my reason for bringing it up. It seems to me that by holding on to the notion that one path is the "right" path to the One Infinite Creator can lead to problems of elitism and ego that are not conducive to STO polarization.

I wouldn't say that the "negative" path is the "wrong" path. That would be a subjective interpretation of objective reality. Personally I wouldn't have used the words "positive" and "negative" in the first place because of this reason.

The context here though is that of the path to unity with the Creator, hence, a path of separation from the Creator is easily seen as the "wrong" path. Subjectively.

---

The problem/conundrum/paradox with the discussions of graduation et. all in my opinion is that it implies a Judge/Teacher/etc. And 'who' I wonder might that be ... and for what purpopse ...

51.1 Questioner: [...] I was wondering if there is a supervision over the harvest and if so, why this supervision is necessary and how it works since an entity’s harvestability is determined by the violet ray? Is it necessary for entities to supervise the harvest, or is it automatic?

Ra: I am Ra. In time of harvest there are always harvesters. The fruit is formed as it will be, but there is some supervision necessary to ensure that this bounty is placed as it should be without the bruise or the blemish.

There are those of three levels watching over harvest.

The first level is planetary and that which may be called angelic. This type of guardian includes the mind/body/spirit complex totality or Higher Self of an entity and those inner plane entities which have been attracted to this entity through its inner seeking.

The second class of those who ward this process are those of the Confederation who have the honor/duty of standing in the small places at the edge of the steps of light/love so that those entities being harvested will not, no matter how confused or unable to make contact with their Higher Self, stumble and fall away for any reason other than the strength of the light. These Confederation entities catch those who stumble and set them aright so that they may continue into the light.

The third group watching over this process is that group you call the Guardians. This group is from the octave above our own and serves in this manner as light bringers. These Guardians provide the precise emissions of light/love in exquisitely fastidious disseminations of discrimination so that the precise light/love vibration of each entity may be ascertained.

Who watches the Watchmen, eh?

[Sacred Fool]

I beg to differ, at least in the way I interpret Ra.

78.2 [...] In sixth density, the density of unity, the positive and negative paths must needs take in each other for all now must be seen as love/light and light/love. This is not difficult for the positive polarity which sends love and light to all other-selves. It is difficult enough for service-to-self polarized entities that at some point the negative polarity is abandoned.

36.12 [...] There are no negative beings which have attained the Oversoul manifestation, which is the honor/duty of the mind/body/spirit complex totality, of late sixth-density as you would term it in your time measurements. These negatively oriented mind/body/spirit complexes have a difficulty which to our knowledge has never been overcome, for after fifth-density graduation wisdom is available but must be matched with an equal amount of love. This love/light is very, very difficult to achieve in unity when following the negative path and during the earlier part of the sixth-density, society complexes of the negative orientation will choose to release the potential and leap into the sixth-density positive.

Therefore, the Oversoul which makes its understanding available to all who are ready for such aid is towards the positive. However, the free will of the individual is paramount, and any guidance given by the Higher Self may be seen in either the positive or negative polarity depending upon the choice of a mind/body/spirit complex.

36.15 [...] The sixth-density negative entity is extremely wise. It observes the spiritual entropy occurring due to the lack of ability to express the unity of sixth-density. Thus, loving the Creator and realizing at some point that the Creator is not only self but other-self as self, this entity consciously chooses an instantaneous energy reorientation so that it may continue its evolution.

Someone coming from 5d positive into 6d positive will have to balance Love with Wisdom, someone coming from 5d negative into 6d has more work to do.

If you don't mind, I just want to point out that the negatively polarized early 6D entity has the advantage of extreme wisdom and in order to assist + polarized selves, it must learn more about Love. This seems fairly complementary to the + polarized early 6D entity which has the love advantage, as it were, but might need to learn a whole more about wisdom than it has learned coming up positively through the densities.

There's a Q'uo reference to this someplace that I could root around for if anyone is interested. It doesn't go into it in detail, but there's some discussion of why an early positive 6D entity might want to wander into lower negative densities. Sounds like a blast, eh?

~P

[Lavazza]

If you don't mind, I just want to point out that the negatively polarized early 6D entity has the advantage of extreme wisdom and in order to assist + polarized selves, it must learn more about Love. This seems fairly complementary to the + polarized early 6D entity which has the love advantage, as it were, but might need to learn a whole more about wisdom than it has learned coming up positively through the densities.

But I believe that wisdom would already have been mastered in fifth density, the density of wisdom. Graduating from that density implies that the entity is wise enough already. Sixth density is about finding the balance between them, not learning more about them, right?

[Sacred Fool]

If you don't mind, I just want to point out that the negatively polarized early 6D entity has the advantage of extreme wisdom and in order to assist + polarized selves, it must learn more about Love. This seems fairly complementary to the + polarized early 6D entity which has the love advantage, as it were, but might need to learn a whole more about wisdom than it has learned coming up positively through the densities.

But I believe that wisdom would already have been mastered in fifth density, the density of wisdom. Graduating from that density implies that the entity is wise enough already. Sixth density is about finding the balance between them, not learning more about them, right?

Well, as I'm given to understand it, graduating from, say 3D, with 51% positive polarization leaves one entity with a different degree of mastery than the one who graduates with, say 97% positive polarization. So, you can arrive in 6D, possibly, with a rather uneven portfolio. Ra was a slow student in 5D, for example. Hence their mistakes when contacting earth people and their naivete when dealing with negative entities. Not what you'd expect of perfected 6D masters. We're all learning and developing, it seems, even at that level. Or am I wrong?

[Lavazza]

Well, as I'm given to understand it, graduating from, say 3D, with 51% positive polarization leaves one entity with a different degree of mastery than the one who graduates with, say 97% positive polarization. So, you can arrive in 6D, possibly, with a rather uneven portfolio. Ra was a slow student in 5D, for example. Hence their mistakes when contacting earth people and their naivete when dealing with negative entities. Not what you'd expect of perfected 6D masters. We're all learning and developing, it seems, even at that level. Or am I wrong?

Sounds like a pretty reasonable viewpoint actually, makes sense. I actually pondered that myself earlier- about how a group of entities (the Ra complex) who are so many millions of years in advance of us could make mistakes as great as the pyramids seem to have been in retrospect. Not intended to be a judgment of Ra of course, but it always made me wonder a bit.

[Sacred Fool]

Well, as I'm given to understand it, graduating from, say 3D, with 51% positive polarization leaves one entity with a different degree of mastery than the one who graduates with, say 97% positive polarization. So, you can arrive in 6D, possibly, with a rather uneven portfolio. Ra was a slow student in 5D, for example. Hence their mistakes when contacting earth people and their naivete when dealing with negative entities. Not what you'd expect of perfected 6D masters. We're all learning and developing, it seems, even at that level. Or am I wrong?

Sounds like a pretty reasonable viewpoint actually, makes sense. I actually pondered that myself earlier- about how a group of entities (the Ra complex) who are so many millions of years in advance of us could make mistakes as great as the pyramids seem to have been in retrospect. Not intended to be a judgment of Ra of course, but it always made me wonder a bit.

Hmmm, well, I suppose the best thing is to simply embrace them with divine love. After all, to err is human, to forgive divine...as it were.

[pphuck]

If you don't mind, I just want to point out that the negatively polarized early 6D entity has the advantage of extreme wisdom and in order to assist + polarized selves, it must learn more about Love. This seems fairly complementary to the + polarized early 6D entity which has the love advantage, as it were, but might need to learn a whole more about wisdom than it has learned coming up positively through the densities.

But I believe that wisdom would already have been mastered in fifth density, the density of wisdom. Graduating from that density implies that the entity is wise enough already. Sixth density is about finding the balance between them, not learning more about them, right?

Here's what Ra has to say about the subject:

48.5 Questioner: [...] Can you tell me how positive and negative polarizations in fourth and fifth density are used to cause working in consciousness?

Ra: I am Ra. There is very little work in consciousness in fourth and in fifth densities compared to the work done in third density. The work that is accomplished in positive fourth is that work whereby the positive social memory complex, having, through slow stages, harmoniously integrated itself, goes forth to aid those of less positive orientation which seek their aid. Thus their service is their work and through this dynamic between the societal self and the other-self, which is the object of love, greater and greater intensities of understanding or compassion are attained. This intensity continues until the appropriate intensity of the light may be welcomed. This is fourth-density harvest.

Within fourth-density positive there are minor amounts of catalyst of a spiritual and mental complex distortion. This occurs during the process of harmonizing to the extent of forming the social memory complex. This causes some small catalyst and work to occur, but the great work of fourth density lies in the contact betwixt the societal self and less polarized other-self.

In fourth-density negative much work is accomplished during the fighting for position which precedes the period of the social memory complex. There are opportunities to polarize negatively by control of other-selves. During the social memory complex period of fourth-density negative the situation is the same. The work takes place through the societal reaching out to less polarized otherself in order to aid in negative polarization.

In fifth-density positive and negative the concept of work done through a potential difference is not particularly helpful as fifth-density entities are, again, intensifying rather than potentiating.

In positive, the fifth-density complex uses sixth-density teach/learners to study the more illuminated understandings of unity thus becoming more and more wise. Fifth-density positive social memory complexes will choose to divide their service to others in two ways: first, the beaming of light to creation; second, the sending of groups to be of aid as instruments of light such as those whom you are familiar with through channels.

In fifth-density negative, service to self has become extremely intense and the self has shrunk or compacted so that the dialogues with the teach/learners are used exclusively in order to intensify wisdom. There are very, very few fifth-density negative Wanderers for they fear the forgetting. There are very, very few fifth-density Orion members for they do not any longer perceive any virtue in other-selves.

---

I actually pondered that myself earlier- about how a group of entities (the Ra complex) who are so many millions of years in advance of us could make mistakes as great as the pyramids seem to have been in retrospect. Not intended to be a judgment of Ra of course, but it always made me wonder a bit.

Hmmm, well, I suppose the best thing is to simply embrace them with divine love. After all, to err is human, to forgive divine...as it were.

I'm not sure I'm using the correct words here, but: It would seem to me that entities that love too much without understanding and wisdom could easily miss out on the finer points of the Law of Confusion. Without the complete understanding and wisdom of how the sharing of love will affect other-selves you will sooner or later step over this threshold. I believe it could even be possible to mistakenly mess with someone's free will "for the higher good".

It's not until you're beyond mid 6d that you're starting to really get a full grip of all this, and by that time the focus is on unity with the Creator rather than any sharing with entities from lower densities.

[3D Sunset]

It's not until you're beyond mid 6d that you're starting to really get a full grip of all this, and by that time the focus is on unity with the Creator rather than any sharing with entities from lower densities.

I agree, I think it's sort of like the old saying: "Those who tell, don't know, and those who know, don't tell".

3D Sunset

[Monica]

This is a topic I have been pondering for some time. I do not fully understand the purpose of the STS path... I do not understand why it exists. There are two things that I have often heard as a way of explaining STS. One is, of course, free will. Entities have the free will to be of STS if they so choose. The other is a mystical belief of mine that all things, that is to say, ALL things in the universe must have a balance of some sort.

I'm joining this discussion rather late in the game. I haven't read the other posts yet.

I understand what you're saying here. I feel exactly the same way! I too have wondered why it was necessary for there to be an STS path at all, and why it was necessary for there to be suffering.

I have sometime joked (or, rather, sort of half-joked) that whenever I hand over the report of my sojourns to the Creator, I'm going to give the Creator an earful! I intend to complain loud and clear that suffering isn't fun, and see if something can't be done about it in future Creations! Surely the Creator can think of some other ways that don't include suffering! I know the mechanics of how things work in our neck of the woods were designed by the Logos, so the Logos will definitely get an earful too!

While I'm at it, I think I'll throw in a complaint about the mosquitoes and cockroaches too...Was that really necessary? Like the bad guy said in Time Bandits (one of my fav movies), "He created slugs! Slugs!" And I think they can come up with a better design on our throats...having food and air going down the same pipe isn't very efficient. We'd reduce choking if there were 2 separate passageways for food and air!

Yup...if the Creator wants to absorb my experience, then I've got some ideas that I'd like considered!

A dead end path...
As we have learned from the Ra material, STS entities can only travel so far along their chosen path. (can't find session) In mid-sixth density, the negative entity realizes that it cannot progress any further without realizing that it must love others as it loves itself in order to master the lesson of unity. Is it just my perspective that it seems highly awkward for an entity to progress on a spiritual path for millions of years with a misguided premise before finally realizing the "correct" path?

I don't think it was a 'wrong' path for the STS entity, but just a different route to the same destination.

Further speculation...
One might also argue that without STS, STO would be meaningless. But I would challenge that idea.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable if we imagined a completely different paradigm of our reality. Suppose with me for a minute, that there is NO STS path. God is only about love, and we are all creations of love in physical manifest form. However, we do have a thick veil about us. This veil should be more than sufficient catalyst to create any and all opportunities (seemingly STS actions) for STO action.

I agree! I could envision that quite easily, and it seems much more appealing than the design we're dealing with here. But, from what I understand, Ra's planet was essentially like that. And maybe most of the UniVerse is like that. Maybe we are unusual here. I got the impression from Ra/Q'uo that Earth is sort of like a school for juvenile delinquents.

However the key difference is that everyone who participates in STS actions (murder, theft, hatred, etc) are not working from deep subconscious desires to polarize in STS or "evil" ways, but are simply mis-guided, emotionally traumatized or otherwise suffering entities. After their death they are welcomed back in to the spirit world and undergo much healing, learning what they did wrong and why, and then reincarnating later on with the intent of doing better at those life lessons. This is the paradigm that Michael Newton has observed in his books 'Journy of Souls' and 'Destiny of Souls'.

I would surmise that this is indeed what happens to the majority of souls that might seem STS to us on the surface. For example, some of the most violent criminals probably aren't necessarily pursuing the STS path, but just never got shown any love as children, maybe grew up in abusive households, and basically are just emotionally messed up. These souls are rehabilitatable, given enough time and love. They will likely repeat 3D until they learn to quit being violent. Look at the most infamous 'evil' person the world has ever known - Hitler - and he didn't even graduate to 4D negative! Not because he wasn't evil enough, but because he was so confused and his motivation was misguided.

In conclusion (for now), I will state that the STS path is one in which I am more than ready to 'leave behind' as Q'uo might suggest I do. If I cannot find resolve on this I will surely do so.

I feel a bit indignant about there being suffering in the world. Although I know that there's a reason for it, at the same time I think there's a reason for my strong feelings about it too. I was only half-kidding when I said I intend to tell the Logos and the Creator my opinion about it!

[Sacred Fool]

Gosh, Monica, if all the world was rosy and we never saw a slug or a psychopath, how could we learn deep acceptance?

Why is acceptance of such repulsive things so important anyhow?

~P~

[Lavazza]

Hello Monica! Thank you for joining the fray

I would surmise that this is indeed what happens to the majority of souls that might seem STS to us on the surface. For example, some of the most violent criminals probably aren't necessarily pursuing the STS path, but just never got shown any love as children, maybe grew up in abusive households, and basically are just emotionally messed up. These souls are rehabilitatable, given enough time and love. They will likely repeat 3D until they learn to quit being violent. Look at the most infamous 'evil' person the world has ever known - Hitler - and he didn't even graduate to 4D negative! Not because he wasn't evil enough, but because he was so confused and his motivation was misguided.

I'm glad you brought this up, because it reminded me of something else that I'm puzzled over. It deals with Hitler, who I think most average people would agree is the ultimate symbol of evil in our last century for sure, if not a longer period of time.

Of course, we know from Ra (and a few other channeled sources) that Hitler was not actually evil-incarnate, but was a highly confused and possibly insane individual, who was only acting out of his own highest truth (providing the earth with a supreme race of humans). Ra says:

Questioner: Can you tell us what happened to Adolf (Hitler)?

Ra: I am Ra. The mind/body/spirit complex known as Adolf is at this time in an healing process in the middle astral planes of your spherical force field. This entity was greatly confused and, although aware of the circumstance of change in vibratory level associated with the cessation of the chemical body complex, nevertheless, needed a great deal of care.

More:

Here we see an example of one who, in attempting activation of the highest rays of energy while lacking the green ray key, canceled itself out as far as polarization either towards positive or negative. This entity was basically negative. However, its confusion was such that the personality disintegrated, thus leaving the mind/body/spirit complex unharvestable and much in need of healing.

So here's my confusion. If you are greatly confused, emotionally traumatized, had a cruel childhood or otherwise not consciously seeking the STS path, it seems that once you enter the spirit world / time/space / inner planes, you undergo healing. This idea is in harmony with Michael Newton also. The thing is- the above conditions are probably true for a great majority of criminals, deviants or otherwise "evil do-ers" in our society today. But when these people die, they do not go off to their special STS spirit guides to review their works of evil, but are instead cleansed of their negative energy (healing). So how does one build any polarity to become STS harvestable? Does it all have to be done in one single lifetime?

Conversely, are people who for whatever reasons perform STO actions go through a similar cleansing process to purify themselves of positive energies before reincarnating again? No, we would probably guess this is not the case. But why not, if it happens in the other camp?

Crunchy, nutritious food for thought.

[Turtle]

After reading the previous post by Lavazza, I'm starting to think that this really is just one big "game"...that any choice of incarnation in any kind of reality throughout infinity is more a playground for the infinite mind. When Ra says that the mysteries of the 8th octave are something they "do not plumb", I can't help but feel like when Ra rejoins the infinite all, they will "find out" that, ooops it was just a big fun time...now where do you want to have some more fun in the INFINITE VARIATIONS OF ALL THINGS.

I don't see the infinite mind "growing" by having it's pieces rejoin with it, by the process of going through densities and transcending back to it's infinite self. I see it as an infinite playground...here is a simple metaphor JUST in case I am not being clear.

A programmer who is a MASTER at and even DEVELOPED a gaming engine with which he will make a bunch of different games, decides he is ready to begin creating. He isn't going to learn anything new about his engine because he created it by himself, and spent years perfecting it. What he will accomplish however, is a new discovery of what kind of FUN he will enjoy with the many games he will create with his new engine. (and the only thing I'd like to add to this metaphor is that with the infinite creator, I envision the "gaming engine" being infinite in scope as well, nothing to be developed further...save for the exploration of infinite imagination of creating new "games" that comes with being the infinite mind/self!)

......and it's all made possible through the method of forgetting or veiling the perception of infinity! Hot Damn!

Godspeed!

[ubergud]

After reading the previous post by Lavazza, I'm starting to think that this really is just one big "game"...that any choice of incarnation in any kind of reality throughout infinity is more a playground for the infinite mind. When Ra says that the mysteries of the 8th octave are something they "do not plumb", I can't help but feel like when Ra rejoins the infinite all, they will "find out" that, ooops it was just a big fun time...now where do you want to have some more fun in the INFINITE VARIATIONS OF ALL THINGS.

I don't see the infinite mind "growing" by having it's pieces rejoin with it, by the process of going through densities and transcending back to it's infinite self. I see it as an infinite playground...here is a simple metaphor JUST in case I am not being clear.

A programmer who is a MASTER at and even DEVELOPED a gaming engine with which he will make a bunch of different games, decides he is ready to begin creating. He isn't going to learn anything new about his engine because he created it by himself, and spent years perfecting it. What he will accomplish however, is a new discovery of what kind of FUN he will enjoy with the many games he will create with his new engine. (and the only thing I'd like to add to this metaphor is that with the infinite creator, I envision the "gaming engine" being infinite in scope as well, nothing to be developed further...save for the exploration of infinite imagination of creating new "games" that comes with being the infinite mind/self!)

......and it's all made possible through the method of forgetting or veiling the perception of infinity! Hot Damn!

Godspeed!

I would add to this (as a both software developer, and computer gamer) that the engine developer gets a form of enjoyment from creating the engine that is different than the enjoyment of the creators of the story, or the art, etc. which is further different from the enjoyment derived from playing the game, and further different from playing the game without being aware of any of the above portions of the creation ... (sort of what you were saying above regarding the veiling I think). Makes me wonder if that's what is going on while we sleep ... all the creation / co-creation of the game design, story, art, etc. of this illusion ... maybe we're just the beta testers of a 'Holodeck' (Star Trek reference) we aren't aware we're in (at least while we're in it) ...

Peace, Joy and Happiness as you desire it ...

[Monica]

Gosh, Monica, if all the world was rosy and we never saw a slug or a psychopath, how could we learn deep acceptance?

Why is acceptance of such repulsive things so important anyhow?

I was joking about the slugs.

The psychopaths...I can see the value in that. What I was really referring to was extreme suffering in general.

[Monica]

So how does one build any polarity to become STS harvestable?

I dunno. I would think it has to do with intention to dominate/control others, rather than just lashing out in violence due to an inability to handle trauma. I think there are many powerful STS entities on the planet today who might never be overtly violent, but they move armies around like pawns on a chessboard. These are the ones more likely harvestable to STS, rather than the criminal who made some mistakes stemming from his abusive childhood.

What I'm suggesting is that we might not necessarily be able to tell someone's polarity by their outward appearance or actions. Polarity is determined by walking the steps of Light. As observers, we don't really know the motivations behind the actions.

For example, a politician might never perform an act of violence but might be entirely motivated by greed and lust for power. Or a mega-church pastor might seem good on the surface, but is in fact a master manipulator, and feeds off the fears of the 30,000 people assembling in his huge, multi-million-$$ church every Sunday. (This is not to say that all politicians or pastors are STS, of course! But I think some of them undoubtedly are.) They might be much more polarized than many violent criminals.

It does seem obvious that the criminals who are extremely hardened, who committed multiple acts of violence without any remorse, are clearly polarized STS. This may be true in most cases, but we already know of one exception - Hitler - so who knows how many other exceptions there are!

Does it all have to be done in one single lifetime?

I don't think any souls would be expected to become harvestable in a single lifetime.

Conversely, are people who for whatever reasons perform STO actions go through a similar cleansing process to purify themselves of positive energies before reincarnating again? No, we would probably guess this is not the case. But why not, if it happens in the other camp?

My understanding is that our Higher Selves and their Spirit assistants, being beyond polarity, provide healing regardless of our polarity. I don't see it as 2 opposing teams at that level.

I'm interested in this discussion as it pertains to why there is evil at all, but I think trying to really understand the mechanics of how STS entities polarize might not produce much fruit, being that covering that topic was not an objective of our Confederation friends. There just isn't a lot of data about it in the Law of One, so most of what we say would be based on speculation. Ra's objective was to provide info on how to polarize STO. Q'uo has stated that it's not their task to answer the call of STS.

[Sacred Fool]

Gosh, Monica, if all the world was rosy and we never saw a slug or a psychopath, how could we learn deep acceptance?

Why is acceptance of such repulsive things so important anyhow?

I was joking about the slugs.

The psychopaths...I can see the value in that. What I was really referring to was extreme suffering in general.

Uh, sorry, Monica. I was invoking the Law of Silliness. [Gee, I can't recall off hand what session that's discussed in.]


I know the sort of thing you're referring to: people who've lost a child and never gotten over it to their dying day, for example. ...heartbreaking...

I guess that's where faith comes in.

One of the core tenants of the LOO ideology that I intuitively resonate with so strongly is that cultivating the inner knowing that all is well--regardless of the personal threats, horror, cataclysm, slugs, etc.--is a sure means of deepening one's immersion in the Eternal. It's a tremendous gift, no?

[Monica]

I was invoking the Law of Silliness.

I know the sort of thing you're referring to: people who've lost a child and never gotten over it to their dying day, for example. ...heartbreaking...

Exactly!

I guess that's where faith comes in.

Why is faith so important? Many religions put a premium on faith. But perhaps that should be a separate thread...

One of the core tenants of the LOO ideology that I intuitively resonate with so strongly is that cultivating the inner knowing that all is well--regardless of the personal threats, horror, cataclysm, slugs, etc.--is a sure means of deepening one's immersion in the Eternal. It's a tremendous gift, no?

Agreed!

----------

I just read this thread and wow, it seems to describe exactly what I was talking about...a way for 3D entities to evolve spiritually without all that violence and suffering. Check it out!

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...55#pid6055

[pphuck]

My understanding is that our Higher Selves and their Spirit assistants, being beyond polarity, provide healing regardless of our polarity. I don't see it as 2 opposing teams at that level.

I agree as regards to "beyond polarity" and "not 2 opposing teams", but it would seem that there is a difference according to Ra. Since this difference helps explain the differences between the STS and STO paths and the original question in this thread, I'm going to make an extensive quote:

69.8 Questioner: Has a [positive] Wanderer ever been so infringed upon by a negative adept and then placed in negative time/space?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

69.9 Questioner: Can you tell me the situation that the Wanderer finds himself in and the path back, why that path could not be the simple moving back into positive time/space?

Ra: I am Ra. The path back revolves, firstly, about the Higher Self’s reluctance to enter negative space/time. This may be a significant part of the length of that path. Secondly, when a positively oriented entity incarnates in a thoroughly negative environment it must needs learn/teach the lessons of the love of self thus becoming one with its other-selves. [...]

69.11 Questioner: You said that the Higher Self is reluctant to enter negative space/time. Is that correct?

Ra: I am Ra. The incarnative process involves being incarnated from time/space to space/time. This is correct.

69.12 Questioner: I will make this statement and see if I am correct. When first moved into time/space of a negative polarization the positive entity experiences nothing but darkness. Then, by incarnation into negative space/time by the Higher Self, it experiences a negative space/time environment with negatively polarized other-selves. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

70.6 Questioner: In the last session Ra stated that “the path back from sixth-density negative time/space revolves, firstly, about the Higher Self’s reluctance to enter negative time/space.” Could you explain the Higher Self’s position with respect to positive and negative time/space and why it is so reluctant to enter negative time/space that it is necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time to find its path back?

Ra: I am Ra. In brief, you have answered your own query. Please question further for more precise information.

70.7 Questioner: Why is the Higher Self reluctant to enter negative time/space?

Ra: I am Ra. The Higher Self is reluctant to allow its mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative time/space for the same basic reason an entity of your societal complex would be reluctant to enter a prison.

70.14 Questioner: Oh yes. Sorry about that. It slipped my mind. Now, if a positive entity is displaced to negative time/space I understand that the Higher Self is reluctant to enter the negative time/space. For some reason it makes it necessary for the mind/body/spirit complex to incarnate in negative space/time. Why is it necessary for this incarnation in negative space/time?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, let us remove the concept of reluctance from the equation and then secondly, address your query more to the point. Each time/space is an analog of a particular sort or vibration of space/time. When a negative time/space is entered by an entity the next experience will be that of the appropriate space/time. This is normally done by the form-making body of a mind/body/spirit complex which places the entity in the proper time/space for incarnation.

This quote once again puts the focus on unity vs. separation. It would seem that even the higher self, that is partly beyond the STS/STO polarity, has problems completely overcoming this polarity.

I'm interested in this discussion as it pertains to why there is evil at all, but I think trying to really understand the mechanics of how STS entities polarize might not produce much fruit, being that covering that topic was not an objective of our Confederation friends. There just isn't a lot of data about it in the Law of One, so most of what we say would be based on speculation. Ra's objective was to provide info on how to polarize STO. Q'uo has stated that it's not their task to answer the call of STS.

I completely agree that there is a difference between the STS path and suffering/evil in general. But to be able to separate said differences, I would presume that a good understanding of the STS path is needed as well.

I too believe I have a thing or two to give "construtive criticism" about when I'm done with this incarnation. Well, actually, I'm not gonna wait.

---

I actually pondered that myself earlier- about how a group of entities (the Ra complex) who are so many millions of years in advance of us could make mistakes as great as the pyramids seem to have been in retrospect. Not intended to be a judgment of Ra of course, but it always made me wonder a bit.

After I finished reading The Law of One Book I-V I decided to read all transcripts on L/L Research from 1965 and onwards. One of the reasons was that I wanted to get to the answer of the questionmark above.

I believe part of the answer can be found in 1974-01-16:

This instrument receives my thoughts, and relays them to you. These thoughts are not my exclusive property. They are the thoughts of an entire creation of our infinite Creator. It is not necessary for the instrument to be used for you to know these thoughts. They are available to all people in all places at all times, for they are the thoughts of the Creator. And these thoughts were meant for all of mankind, in all places. These thoughts are the thoughts with which the Creator created us.

These thoughts are very simple. They are a simplicity that is unique, for they are the very foundation of the creation. This is what we are attempting to give man on Earth, this original Thought. This is what he needs at this time. This Thought can only be approached using pure language. It is not a common concept among the people of your planet. This is the reason for their difficulties. The Creator never imagined difficulties in His creation. They are the product of man’s erroneous thinking. We have said to you many times that meditation is necessary. Through this process of meditation, it is possible to know this Thought; we have called it love, but this can only be understood through meditation.

In an environment such as yours, meditation is of even greater importance than in an environment such as ours, for we have very, very little to overcome in our understanding of our fellow man. It is suggested, therefore, that through the process of daily meditation, you will develop an understanding of this Thought that created all of us.

Whereas Ra, in 6d, repeatedly states that there "are no errors", Hatonn and friends seems to believe this is so at this stage. My guess is that "too much" love together with the belief that you know the truth when you actually don't can easily lead to actions which cause exactly the effects that you wanted to prevent. Part of the learning experience to attain the wisdom needed to balance your love.

[pphuck]

Let me add to that (finally found the quote/s):

79.9 Questioner: Then prior to the first extension of the first distortion the veil or loss of awareness did not occur. From this I will make the assumption that this veil or loss of remembering consciously that which occurred before the incarnation was the primary tool for extending the first distortion. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. Your correctness is limited. This was the first tool.

79.10 Questioner: Then from that statement I assume that the Logos first devised the tool of separating the unconscious from the conscious during what we call physical incarnations to achieve its objective? Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes.

79.11 Questioner: Then from that statement I would also assume that many other tools were conceived and used after the first tool of the so-called veil. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. There have been refinements.

[...]

79.30 Questioner: Would The Choice exist at this point during the creation of the first service-to-self polarity?

Ra: I am Ra. Implicit in the veiling or separation of two archetypes is the concept of choice. The refinements to this concept took many experiences.

[...]

90.14 Questioner: Now, as I understand it the archetypes are the biases of a very fundamental nature that, under free will, generate the experiences of each entity. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. The archetypical mind is part of that mind which informs all experience. Please recall the definition of the archetypical mind as the repository of those refinements to the cosmic or all-mind made by this particular Logos and peculiar only to this Logos. Thus it may be seen as one of the roots of mind, not the deepest but certainly the most informative in some ways. The other root of mind to be recalled is that racial or planetary mind which also informs the conceptualizations of each entity to some degree.

[Sacred Fool]

So how does one build any polarity to become STS harvestable?

I dunno. I would think it has to do with intention to dominate/control others, rather than just lashing out in violence due to an inability to handle trauma.

As I'm given to understand the material, STS's polarize by over-fueling their and other people's lower chakras (huge emphasis on life & death situations--or scares--as well as exploits and indulgence), then creating a pyramid scheme (non-Egyptian-type) whereby a few can ride the crest of the wave generated by the many. Examples: any of various organized crime operations, ponzi schemes or prison gangs.

Ra: I am Ra. The Higher Self is reluctant to allow its mind/body/spirit complex to enter negative time/space for the same basic reason an entity of your societal complex would be reluctant to enter a prison.

I'm interested in this discussion as it pertains to why there is evil at all, but I think trying to really understand the mechanics of how STS entities polarize might not produce much fruit, being that covering that topic was not an objective of our Confederation friends. There just isn't a lot of data about it in the Law of One, so most of what we say would be based on speculation. Ra's objective was to provide info on how to polarize STO. Q'uo has stated that it's not their task to answer the call of STS.

I completely agree that there is a difference between the STS path and suffering/evil in general. But to be able to separate said differences, I would presume that a good understanding of the STS path is needed as well.

I'm personally strongly disposed to agree whole-heartedly with you. But then what lessons an entity desires to take on at any given time is another consideration all together.

I too believe I have a thing or two to give "constructive criticism" about when I'm done with this incarnation. Well, actually, I'm not gonna wait.

Go for it, dude!!

I just read this thread and wow, it seems to describe exactly what I was talking about...a way for 3D entities to evolve spiritually without all that violence and suffering. Check it out!
http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...55#pid6055

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._0120.aspx


Wonderful transcript, Monica. Thanks so much for pointing to it. I missed that one too somehow.

Unfortunately the deep suffering of loss of children or horrifying pollution or vicious hunting (latter two by such as we) is not something they can escape. They are also heir to that sort of catalyst. On the other hand, I'll bet their rates of sudden cardiac arrest and cancer are far lower than ours!

[ubergud]

Here's a thought:

1. Pause space/time.
2. Have every entity on Earth experience the life of every other entity on Earth and become consciously aware of it.
3. Un-pause space/time.
4. Share the Love.