So, what does penetrating the veil truly entail?

[Ankh]

The veil is nothing more than a limiting factor to the human condition.

Hmm... I would say that the veil is the teacher. It is there to teach us something about ourselves, or what Ra would call - our mystery-clad Being. And is the one of the many meanings of life.

[3DMonkey]

If, having no veil, we have full access to the unconscious (I'm assuming the full unconscious of the Total Self, the Self that has achieved 1D thru 6D) then this access would be never changing. No?

No. The veil limits access to what has been created up to the point of the veiling.

So, you are saying that not only does the veil draw a line between conscious and unconscious in this incarnation, but it draws a line in my eternal existence- preventing me from access to my Higher Self even in time/space?

The veil limits access to the conscious aspects of prior incarnations and limits conscious access to deeper mind in general. The portion of deeper mind is one way we access the higher self in a conscious manner.

What I mean by "same place" is the place where we exist without the veil. If there is such a place, why would anyone choose to enter into a place with the veil under the guise that the veil somehow facilitates our journey to the place where there is no veil? It doesn't seem like a conscious decision anyone would make without being forced to do it.

---

The veil is nothing more than a limiting factor to the human condition.

Hmm... I would say that the veil is the teacher. It is there to teach us something about ourselves, or what Ra would call - our mystery-clad Being. And is the one of the many meanings of life.

My perspective from your angle is that it is a Hump to climb over. Only, in our state, the hump never ends... like a warped rug that you can't ever seem to get the lumps out of no matter how hard you try.

[zenmaster]

What I mean by "same place" is the place where we exist without the veil. If there is such a place, why would anyone choose to enter into a place with the veil under the guise that the veil somehow facilitates our journey to the place where there is no veil? It doesn't seem like a conscious decision anyone would make without being forced to do it.

It seems that you are reducing conditions of being to 'places', and further those places to some kind of duality - that place that has a veil and that place that doesn't. However, evolution is like an upward spiral conducted by an infinitely unique consciousness - it's not 'there' and 'here' because neither of those things exist other than as logical abstraction. Although this existence does tend to reinforce that notion and many other concepts that have to do with limitation of thought and being. (I am thankful for that) Non-veiled existence is just another way to learn about self with a different set of tools for utilizing spirit.

---

This is where you can get to know yourself up close and personal, in a very real manner. It's here that we also lay the groundwork for what we have offered and have to enjoy 'without the veil'.

---

Also, "The lack of awareness of the body’s need for liquid is unlikely without the veil", so don't forget to hydrate.

[Joseph326]

@Joseph: As I stated before, from my perspective of 'awareness' it was as though I was both witnessing this throne as well as having become a part of it. There was no communication to me per se, all I recall is vibrating, droning, everywhere, as if everything in the ether was chattering amongst itself. So yes, it was moreso pure vibration as you put it. The entire throne itself was comprised of galaxies, solar systems, and the void as a canvas, and I recall there being smaller faces embedded in it, but for the most part everything came together to form this one central being. It was the experience I'd been searching for all my life. When you speak of the similar experience you had, what was it brought upon by?

THC, music, and a meditative state. I feel it is possible without assistance also, I will let you know when I succeed at that

[3DMonkey]

What I mean by "same place" is the place where we exist without the veil. If there is such a place, why would anyone choose to enter into a place with the veil under the guise that the veil somehow facilitates our journey to the place where there is no veil? It doesn't seem like a conscious decision anyone would make without being forced to do it.

It seems that you are reducing conditions of being to 'places', and further those places to some kind of duality - that place that has a veil and that place that doesn't. However, evolution is like an upward spiral conducted by an infinitely unique consciousness - it's not 'there' and 'here' because neither of those things exist other than as logical abstraction. Although this existence does tend to reinforce that notion and many other concepts that have to do with limitation of thought and being. (I am thankful for that) Non-veiled existence is just another way to learn about self with a different set of tools for utilizing spirit.

---

This is where you can get to know yourself up close and personal, in a very real manner. It's here that we also lay the groundwork for what we have offered and have to enjoy 'without the veil'.

---

Also, "The lack of awareness of the body’s need for liquid is unlikely without the veil", so don't forget to hydrate.

Yes, I am reducing. I am reducing for the clarity of this discussion. We cannot transcend the veil when discussing the veil. The veil isn't some magical godsend for helping us. It's a condition.

"This is where you can get to know yourself up close and personal, in a very real manner. It's here that we also lay the groundwork for what we have offered and have to enjoy 'without the veil'." <-- This is logical abstraction as well. It is formulated in the mind. It is a creation to help oneself cope with oneself.

After noticing how many times the mind is repeating, it looks more like beliefs are all abstractions of reality. Illusion*?

[Unbound]

ARGH, I lost my post...

Anyways, this discussion is very muddle with dualistic terminology.

To start, the veil is an aspect of STATE, it has nothing to do with any place. The existence of the veil in no way suggests that we have ever been anywhere other than exactly where we are. It only has to do with the perception of our reality. Also on that note, I would thoroughly state the opposite 3D, in that reality is in fact an abstraction of belief systems. (I would highly recommend The Nature of Personal Reality: A Seth Book by Jane Roberts for this discussion.)

The veil was also the amplification of the service-to-self path, or rather that beginning of the dominance of darkness.

(http://lawofone.info/results.php?search_...&ss=1&sc=1)

The veil APPEARS to be "conditional", but it is in fact a CATALYST. That is all it is. All catalyst is useful, and thus helpful. Transcending the veil and discussing the veil are in fact nearly the same thing, as through the discussion of something you illuminate its many facets. You cannot transcend anything without first knowing what it is you are intending to transcend, but there is no point in discussion without the goal of transcendence.

The idea that there is "sameness of experience" before and after the veil is in fact quite nonsensical. There is no "other place" with no veil. Where we were before the veil is no different than where we are with the veil. Also, after the veil we will continue to be in the same place. Also, experience is MORE than simply the state of perception through which it is experienced. In this case experiences 'prior to the veil', 'under the veil' and 'having consciously lifted the veil' are all in fact still as completely unique and individual as any other experience.

The suggestion that we once "had it all" and are now simply returning to that state is nothing more than a cyclic conception of linear time. Really consider our place in time and that relationship with our concept of memory of time. It's not simply a matter of being "veiled" and "unveiled" but rather the interaction within the entity of the knowledge of these two states.

Let us continue the metaphor of the schooling but consider the scholar as being an entity in your younger years of the schooling process. The entity is fed, clothed, and protected regardless of whether or not the schoolwork is accomplished. Therefore, the entity does not do the homework but rather enjoys playtime, mealtime, and vacation. It is not until there is a reason to wish to excel that most entities will attempt to excel.

What does the veil provide for us? The WHY. It is the grounds for deep exploration of the expanses of the self. Simply, we are no longer able to take for granted the intimate connection to the Source, and thus to other-selves. The existence prior to the veil gave motivation for the creation of the veil, which will gives motivation for the lifting of the veil which will thus produce a new state referenced by an "after the veil" concept. Notice the distinction between these three "conditions". They all provide a unique set of experiences.

One of the issues I see here is the judgmental perception of "better" and "worse", or the idea that there one state is more enjoyable or meaningful than another. This is a gross misconception and it should never be consider that either veiled or unveiled experience is in any way "easier", "more expansive" or some such thing. Both offer their own type of experience.

We can also begin to see a deeper uniqueness of experience when we also consider that each and every life exists in its own time-state. The experiences in the 1800's under the veil are not the same as our current experiences under the veil. Just as the experience without the veil, however long ago, will most certainly not be replicated by a lifting or penetration of the veil in a modern time-state.

The question shouldn't just be "Why did I come here?", it should be extended to be "Why did I come here at this exact point in time?" It's not just a matter of being veiled and striving for an unveiled state, but a matter of doing a particular type of work. Some who come here have no desire nor even a need to penetrate the veil since they have planned for themselves a "veiled" existence through which they basically add a new facet of experience to their total experiential accumulation. You can think of the self as being a rough gem and which each life you polish, shape and add facets of perception until it becomes a fine, clear jewel. In the nature of the alchemist we also work to cure fractures.

It must never be forgotten THAT EVERY EXISTENCE IS UNIQUE. Your higher self and your past selves ARE THEIR OWN SELVES. They are not "you", only you are you. They are only memetic connections by which you supply yourself with the necessary state and perception of self to fulfill the plan you set out for yourself prior to incarnation. In truth, this is the first time ANY of you have ever existed, myself included. A birth is not just a "limitation of the total self", it is also a reproduction of the self, it is a NEW self which is beginning its journey. You will not "end up" as your higher self, nor are you tied to any such linear "chain of lives" through the manner of the past, unless you so choose.

Thus the Higher Self is like the map in which the destination is known; the roads are very well known, these roads being designed by intelligent infinity working through intelligent energy. However, the Higher Self aspect can program only for the lessons and certain predisposing limitations if it wishes. The remainder is completely the free choice of each entity. There is the perfect balance between the known and the unknown.

This clearly shows that "each entity" is in fact NOT simply a "lesser" version of the Higher Self, but is in fact its own completely unique being.

I am Ra. The third density is a choice.

The prelude to choice must encompass the laying of the foundation, the establishment of the illusion and the viability of that which can be made spiritually viable. The remainder of the densities is continuous refining of the choice. This also is greatly lengthened, as you would use the term. The choice is, as you put it, the work of a moment but is the axis upon which the creation turns.

The Choice is all-important, it is the only thing that is truly relevant. The veil facilitates a catalyst which increases the vividness of the polarities so that there is more desire to use this Choice.

Here's a good question, if we were never told that the "unveiled" state had ever existed, then what would the veil mean to us then? It is meaningless without a comparison of state. Without the idea that the veil is something that IS temporal then we would no longer realize the full meaning of the Choice in relation to the function of polarity. Without the hope that there is still more ahead of us then how many would ever choose to make the choice to continue through the densities?

"Penetrating the veil" is a choice. You will never reveal to yourself more than you are ready for. What you have to ask yourself, and there is no one else who can answer this for you, is "What did I come here to do?". You must give yourself CONTEXT for your existence.

Now for me, maybe it would be best to give a direct example of my implications, I will attempt to describe my own choice. I, for myself, believe that since the nature of the third density is to make the choice, then there are only two logical purposes: To make your own choice, and to help others make their choice. I do not believe our current state to be a "reduction" from another state. We are an outgrowth, a new formation, not merely a broken off "fragment". Now what does experience in third density represent in the scheme of the total being? The choice betwixt the Dark and the Light. In order to consider this in a full context I must consider all the choices I have made in my life. I must examine those things which I resonate with, those lives and ideas I have chosen to associate with, and the Higher Self I have chosen to conceptualize a potential higher state with.

For me, through my associations, I have developed an intimate understanding of the darkness, often choosing to affiliate with those whom have been the most negative through an attempt to ponder their inner workings. For myself, I have addressed myself to the question: "Why does an entity choose the dark?". Even though I identify myself as having been thoroughly "negative" through much of my existence "prior" to this incarnation, having even walked through the memories of the types such as Vlad the Impaler and Rasputin, this only provides a framework within which I can, in an informed manner, make my choice. As far as I'm concerned, in the grand scheme of things, all the notions of "past self" and "higher self" are more or less moot. What is important is the reflection you make upon these notions. You can just as equally connect yourself with positive or negative past or future selves for the sake of associative learning and to give yourself an idea of the choices that are available to you within your current extent of awareness.

So with that in mind, a question would be, why would someone choose to fill themselves with such darkness? Well, for myself, I have made the choice so that I may learn how to transmute darkness in to light, by revealing that they are unified. That, as I have chosen, is my "purpose" for coming in to this veiled time-state. By nature of association, anything that communicates (whether through thought affiliation or another mechanism) with anything else becomes forever intertwined with that which it communicates. So, because I have chosen to, within myself, per se "house" the essences of darkness I have not only made them a part of myself, but have also made myself a part of them. Which means that I am also now in a position to INFLUENCE all of these darknesses.

So, what are the implications of this? Well imagine a thread which weaves its way through the darkness, touching upon all its major seams. You can imagine my own consciousness to be this thread which I have woven throughout negativity with my associative thoughts. Of course, imagining the veil to be a fabric, by "sewing myself in to the pattern", I thus gain a certain type of "pull", or influence on the overall fabric. Now imagine at the moment this thread is akin to the nature of the darkness, it is a path of darkness through the darkness, intricately interwoven. Next, imagine that suddenly this one thread is suddenly turned to light, it shines a path which is laced throughout the entirety of the darkness. Becoming fragmented, the darkness in its entropy will no longer be able to sustain its dominance and thus will be broken.

Since I we are all the same self, and thus by changing oneself we can thus influence and change all other selves, by creating myself as an amalgamate of these darknesses I have developed for myself an opportunity to illuminate all these darknesses through the illumination of myself. By choosing to change my polarity, by choosing the light, and through my interweaving with the darkness I will thus introduce light in to the darkness. I will reveal the light within each of these darknesses, perhaps a light which they themselves had no longer allowed themselves to see.

In short, from what I have surmised, my entire plan for coming in to the veiled state, AT THIS PARTICULAR POINT IN TIME, which is the time of Harvest, or to me the Grand Harvest, is to dissolve the veil. This is, in fact, part of the movement in to the 4th Density, since the veil is only a function of Third Density space/time. Many of us have come to this time for this purpose. With any change or shift there must be a complete force and manifestation which facilitates it. So in short, my existence in this life has, to me, become an allegory for the transmutation of the dark in to the light. It has become a symbol of my choice of light over darkness. However, on a greater scale, I hope to provide the means through which the usefulness of this choice can be seen by the whole of our planetary sphere.

If you are to think of the darkness within us as the potential for light, by collecting within myself vast amounts of darkness I have in the same move also gained a vast potential for light. Now, imagine that I was to suddenly shift the entire focus of that darkness in to light. The change within myself will cause ripples which will echo across the whole of the darkness, since I have permeated it with myself.

The time is coming soon for the dark to be revealed as light. The catalyst of the veil is reaching the end of its usefulness for this planet. It has provided more than enough catalyst for each and every individual to be able to make use of to make their choice. The pendulum has reached its peak and now the necessary counter-force is turning it the other way. I believe myself to be part of this counter-force.

Thus have I discovered the meaning and purpose of supposedly "sacrificing" my "higher" state to come in to this one. It is not a condition, nor a limitation, it is an HONOUR, a beautiful opportunity to serve the Creator in a unique and purposeful manner. I in no way regret my choice to come here, and I strongly believe that those who do regret such a thing do so out of lack of context of individual purpose. However, this purpose is something you must choose for yourself. If you want to choose for there to be no purpose, for life to be a "condition", for being human to be a "condition" or a "limitation", then you are crafting for yourself your own destiny. No one chooses our fate but us. This is the density of choice, and so it is here that you must choose your fate. Forget about past and future, veiled or unveiled, all that is important is the choice of the moment in light of the choices of other moments.

Will you choose to continue your desires for control through frustration, anger and unacceptance, or will you choose to see your own choice to come here as a beautiful gift which you accept graciously, and thus be free? The choice, as always, is yours.

I am forever your Guardian and illuminator of the internal light of shadow, here to accept and willfully transmute the darkness which clouds the perception of the light. I hope for you all to see the brilliance of the light within each as I have seen it, deepest blessings from Creator to Creator, love and light, adonai.

[zenmaster]

The time is coming soon for the dark to be revealed as light. The catalyst of the veil is reaching the end of its usefulness for this planet. It has provided more than enough catalyst for each and every individual to be able to make use of to make their choice.

No. Most people here have only experienced a few lifetimes as 3D entities.

[Unbound]

It's not a matter of quantity of life-times but of quality of catalyst. It is possible within only a few life-times to make the choice, and with the heavy concentration of catalyst at the moment I quite strongly believe that most humans have enough "evidence" to make a conclusion. Perhaps this is merely my optimism speaking, I simply prefer to exclude none from my thoughts of light. Also, I see little proof behind that assumption that most people here have only experience a few 3D life-times, even though I consider that to be an insubstantial point. Quality over quantity, imo.

Also, don't get me wrong, the veil will not "cease to exist", but rather the planet will enter a new time-state, or dimension. Even Ra has described this as the variations in Harvest as Positive 4D, Negative 4D, and then those who will continue in 3D. Those who continue in 3D will apparently continue on another planet prepared for the purpose.

[Raman]

The time is coming soon for the dark to be revealed as light. The catalyst of the veil is reaching the end of its usefulness for this planet. It has provided more than enough catalyst for each and every individual to be able to make use of to make their choice.

No. Most people here have only experienced a few lifetimes as 3D entities.

Is not that a statement that contradicts what is known from Ra? My interpretation is that there is a seniority of souls, but again this seniority could be backwards.

My understanding is that mostly souls that have a chance to graduate are given priority, this could make 'young souls' last in line, but again maybe those are the ones with a chance...

[zenmaster]

It is possible within only a few life-times to make the choice, and with the heavy concentration of catalyst at the moment I quite strongly believe that most humans have enough "evidence" to make a conclusion.

No. Most humans are born into conditions that are not amenable to spiritual seeking - hence the need for leisure time, relationships with wide-range of others, etc. Can't go from ape to choice in a few lifetimes. Usually takes a few cycles.

---

The time is coming soon for the dark to be revealed as light. The catalyst of the veil is reaching the end of its usefulness for this planet. It has provided more than enough catalyst for each and every individual to be able to make use of to make their choice.

No. Most people here have only experienced a few lifetimes as 3D entities.

Is not that a statement that contradicts what is known from Ra? My interpretation is that there is a seniority of souls, but again this seniority could be backwards.

My understanding is that mostly souls that have a chance to graduate are given priority, this could make 'young souls' last in line, but again maybe those are the ones with a chance...

Yes, the senior souls merely get in front of the line. Our population supports more than the senior souls.

[3DMonkey]

I don't think my purpose is being understood. I will state it as clearly as possible.

"The veil" is a concept of the Mind in the mind. It isn't a curtain. We do not have the ability to Be without this concept. It follows us, always. The closest anyone has ever come to penetrating the veil is when they acknowledge that there is an active subconscious within their mind. There is no correlation between the Mind concept of the veil and the spiritual mystery of darkness and light. There is no actual transcending from the root chakra to the crown chakra, or from the physical vehicle to the spiritual vehicle. It is only an exercise of an entity's ability in the here and now to understand itself. Nobody is actually showing up in light bodies, traveling astral planes, leaving their body, etc.

In a sentence, all I'm saying is if the veil is an actual phenomenon and we get to choose our incarnations, I would positively never choose a veiled experience. ... And, to be graphic, volunteering for a veiled experience would be like me poking out my eyeballs and busting my eardrums tonight just TO IMPROVE MYSELF.... Therefore, I must conclude for myself that it is conceptual at best.

[zenmaster]

Therefore, I must conclude for myself that it is conceptual at best.

It's as conceptual as the sunrise is conceptual

[3DMonkey]

Therefore, I must conclude for myself that it is conceptual at best.

It's as conceptual as the sunrise is conceptual

Yes. Perspective based and not actually what is happening.

[zenmaster]

Therefore, I must conclude for myself that it is conceptual at best.

It's as conceptual as the sunrise is conceptual

Yes. Perspective based and not actually what is happening.

What's interesting, however, is that one's perspective can change another's mind. Also, mind is primary to matter, so what we perceive we also create - even though we don't fully understand or appreciate it in its entirety.

[Raman]

In a sentence, all I'm saying is if the veil is an actual phenomenon and we get to choose our incarnations, I would positively never choose a veiled experience. ...

Impossible to know that with a veil?

============================================
By the way where do you guys think the 'mind' is located? In the body or outside of the physical body complex?

[3DMonkey]

In a sentence, all I'm saying is if the veil is an actual phenomenon and we get to choose our incarnations, I would positively never choose a veiled experience. ...

Impossible to know that with a veil?

============================================
By the way where do you guys think the 'mind' is located? In the body or outside of the physical body complex?

If the veil is actual-

Not impossible to know. There is no benefit to me. To speed things up? Why? Time is an illusion, right? It takes forever either way. Never my choice to be less than myself.

[zenmaster]

By the way where do you guys think the 'mind' is located? In the body or outside of the physical body complex?

The mind is non local, with the brain as a local (body complex) 'device driver'. Actually, there may be non-local aspects of the device driver as well in cells (neurons). There is some evidence suggesting that the brain has quantum mechanical properties. I was actually thanked by Sheldrake for pointing him to some of Fred Thaheld's interesting work on the subject.

[3DMonkey]

Therefore, I must conclude for myself that it is conceptual at best.

It's as conceptual as the sunrise is conceptual

Yes. Perspective based and not actually what is happening.

What's interesting, however, is that one's perspective can change another's mind. Also, mind is primary to matter, so what we perceive we also create - even though we don't fully understand or appreciate it in its entirety.

A hangnail can change another's mind.

Sure, the mind does create, but its like saying the wind created a field of wildflowers.

[zenmaster]

To speed things up? Why?

Just paying attention and acknowledging 'speeds things up'. One reason one may want to do so, is to seek and promote consciousness. People that lack consciousness here tend to suffer for it.

---

Sure, the mind does create, but its like saying the wind created a field of wildflowers.

It could be to one that does not experience a certain degree of connection with the deeper mind, which is more archetypal (symbolic) in nature. Symbols make things go.

[3DMonkey]

To speed things up? Why?

Just paying attention and acknowledging 'speeds things up'. One reason one may want to do so, is to seek and promote consciousness. People that lack consciousness here tend to suffer for it.

I wasn't referring this incarnation. I was referring to the "evolution of the entity into its Total Self".

---

Sure, the mind does create, but its like saying the wind created a field of wildflowers.

It could be to one that does not experience a certain degree of connection with the deeper mind, which is more archetypal (symbolic) in nature. Symbols make things go.

Is that a silent way to say we need the archetypal symbols and it is best to let people believe in them as they choose (denying their honest nature)?

[zenmaster]

Is that a silent way to say we need the archetypal symbols and it is best to let people believe in them as they choose (denying their honest nature)?

We can use the archetypal symbols if we become conscious of them. Whether someone is honest or not is their own choice. Without honesty, who's will and desire is being applied?

[3DMonkey]

It's a catch 22 I suppose. You see, I'm just being honest of myself. But an other has no idea what level of truth my honesty has or hasn't achieved. So it's up to them to listen or continue with their notion that works for them up to this point. And again, we fall right back to the beginning of the circle that is the Mind.

---

As for using the archetypal symbols- We can use one or two at a time, the ones we like to use. Nobody is capable of applying them in unison... or even understanding them as a unit. The wind being one small factor in a wildflower seeds life, and ever other element involved in the field being one small factor in its own archetypal tarot deck, and each matching up decks in different ways, and all those matchups that created the field last saturday making up its own deck, and then the first seed in this scenario acts on a different symbol and the whole field shifts. Can't be tamed, the archetypes. Can't be used as a whole. Just bits and pieces along the way. No grand scheme, just a situation.

[zenmaster]

You see, I'm just being honest of myself. But an other has no idea what level of truth my honesty has or hasn't achieved.

Is that important somehow?

[3DMonkey]

One person works their whole life concentrating on the application thereof, another never reads a single note about them. Both end up at the same dinner table. Neither one is better off than the other.

---

You see, I'm just being honest of myself. But an other has no idea what level of truth my honesty has or hasn't achieved.

Is that important somehow?

No. It's not important in the sense that I have a desire to be recognized. But in any idea anyone has about the ideal societal existence, it should be noted that this is a major, un-breach-able stumbling block.

[zenmaster]

As for using the archetypal symbols- We can use one or two at a time, the ones we like to use. Nobody is capable of applying them in unison...

By archetypal symbols, I was not referring to those directly from the tarot (and the study suggested by Ra). I was talking about something higher up - our personal and collective symbol set, as we understand from dreams and language.

---

No. It's not important in the sense that I have a desire to be recognized. But in any idea anyone has about the ideal societal existence, it should be noted that this is a major, un-breach-able stumbling block.

It's definitely more unbreachable if the lower-vibrational catalyst is still being sought. If you don't know who you are yet, you aren't going to cooperate or harmonize very well. And at best, only for short, circumstantial periods.

[3DMonkey]

As for using the archetypal symbols- We can use one or two at a time, the ones we like to use. Nobody is capable of applying them in unison...

By archetypal symbols, I was not referring to those directly from the tarot (and the study suggested by Ra). I was talking about something higher up - our personal and collective symbol set, as we understand from dreams and language.

Hmmmm. Okay (I have no direct disagreement. I need to educate myself on that point). Perhaps sometime you could explain to me how these are applicable to the individual without knowing where to relate them structurally... like the tarot, as one example

No. It's not important in the sense that I have a desire to be recognized. But in any idea anyone has about the ideal societal existence, it should be noted that this is a major, un-breach-able stumbling block.

It's definitely more unbreachable if the lower-vibrational catalyst is still being sought. If you don't know who you are yet, you aren't going to cooperate or harmonize very well. And at best, only for short, circumstantial periods.

I don't see any difference from the absent minded to the highly aware. I really don't. The only difference is the method of aggression when things between them turn sour, i.e. fist punches or economical/social manipulation, or psychological passive aggressiveness.

I think the best example of harmony is between those who are all highly delusional unto themselves.

---

(perhaps, in this instance about society, I am being too idealistic. I've never witness two people agree on everything. Nor have I ever witnessed anyone above lower-vibrational catalyst. These two things are ideal indeed)

[zenmaster]

As for using the archetypal symbols- We can use one or two at a time, the ones we like to use. Nobody is capable of applying them in unison...

By archetypal symbols, I was not referring to those directly from the tarot (and the study suggested by Ra). I was talking about something higher up - our personal and collective symbol set, as we understand from dreams and language.

Hmmmm. Okay. Perhaps sometime you could explain to me how these are applicable to the individual without knowing where to relate them structurally... like the tarot, as one example

How to apply them without being consciously aware of them?

No. It's not important in the sense that I have a desire to be recognized. But in any idea anyone has about the ideal societal existence, it should be noted that this is a major, un-breach-able stumbling block.

It's definitely more unbreachable if the lower-vibrational catalyst is still being sought. If you don't know who you are yet, you aren't going to cooperate or harmonize very well. And at best, only for short, circumstantial periods.

I don't see any difference from the absent minded to the highly aware. I really don't. The only difference is the method of aggression when things between them turn sour, i.e. fist punches or economical/social manipulation, or psychological passive aggressiveness.

I think the best example of harmony is between those who are all highly delusional unto themselves.

Well, passive aggressive is just a lower vibrational attribute along with any non-accepting, emotional reaction. And anyone that follows a system, in an unconscious manner, can be considered as being 'manipulated' or victim of 'aggression'.

[3DMonkey]

How to apply them without being consciously aware of them?

The framework is inherently there, but not knowledge of the framework. How can you a dream be an archetype without developing a framework of the overall archetypal structure?

---

I don't see any difference from the absent minded to the highly aware. I really don't. The only difference is the method of aggression when things between them turn sour, i.e. fist punches or economical/social manipulation, or psychological passive aggressiveness.

I think the best example of harmony is between those who are all highly delusional unto themselves.

Well, passive aggressive is just a lower vibrational attribute along with any non-accepting, emotional reaction. And anyone that follows a system, in an unconscious manner, can be considered as being 'manipulated' or victim of 'aggression'.

And it is used and abused by any and every 'guru', preacher, speaker, adept, etc. Thus, I see no difference.

[zenmaster]

How to apply them without being consciously aware of them?

The framework is inherently there, but not knowledge of the framework. How can you a dream be an archetype without developing a framework of the overall archetypal structure?

For example, light and dark are archetypal symbols. You can apply the concept of light to the concept of dark, as in a dream - and you get an alchemical reaction. The 'framework' is your knowledge of what goes where, what provides opportunity for balance to a system that is imbalanced, or what provides opportunity for growth when the only options seen are those of decay.

[3DMonkey]

You can apply the concept of light to the concept of dark, as in a dream - and you get an alchemical reaction.

As in a dream? I can't figure this sentence out.

The 'framework' is your knowledge of what goes where, what provides opportunity for balance to a system that is imbalanced, or what provides opportunity for growth when the only options seen are those of decay.

The framework I was referring to is tarot, astrology, psychology, tree of life, chakra system, religious allegory. These are all the same really. Everyone is using them because they are born with them, and this is what I meant by inherent framework. Although most people don't have a clue about any of these being an archetypal structure, and this is what I meant by not having knowledge of the framework.

Now, seeking these opportunities. Is there a point to it beyond getting along with myself while I'm a human mind on the planet, or is it really beyond that? Why balance? Why growth? Are we going somewhere or do we just have a condition whereby we need to think we are going somewhere? ... All signs point to the latter lately.