In regards to eating meat

[3DMonkey]

I will say that I have no interest in "bringing down" any industry, idea, or man.

I think animal slaughter is okay. We each have our individual boundaries. Like, when I explain that plants suffer, some vegetarians say it is ridiculous, all the while, meat eaters ridicule vegetarians. Lines. I know racist homosexuals and african american homophobes. We all draw the line somewhere. We have to laugh at ourselves. We really do, lol. It isn't beneficial to take ourselves seriously.

I really love what Norral says. It is loving and swallows up the entire globe in love, like a big fluffy marshmallow . I love it.

[BrownEye]

Like, when I explain that plants suffer, some vegetarians say it is ridiculous, all the while, meat eaters ridicule vegetarians.

The suffering of a plant is not the same as the suffering of an animal. A tree can suffer somewhat like an animal, but we don't eat trees. A plants suffering is more bound to intention rather than physical harm. An animal, like a tree, is only one Soul evolutionary step away from being able to incarnate into 3D. I would much rather take part in moving evolution in a forward direction than to stay where I am. Not to mention returning with more of a handicap because I refused the lessons put in front of me. I have thousands more lives to go, and really don't want to go backwards in lessons and be born in a place like South Africa or the middle east, or even in a place like this country to parents that prostitute their children for drugs.

[norral]

well i thank you 3d for your kind words. i love u too 3d. i just came back from the diner where i had a burger with fries. i enjoyed it. one thing i did different this time is before i ate it i closed my eyes and bowed my head and gave thanks to my animal brothers for providing this nourishment for me. which is what the american indians did. so i look at it essentially as u do 3d it is just not up to me to make judgements about peoples diet. i dont like or dislike people because of their diet. i find its an energy thing. anyway i embrace all with love and i do feel like a big fluffy marshmellow, i think thats a very good description of who i am . 3d i want to say that i encase u in a big warm wet pool of marshmallow pudding. u and i are now stuck together for all eternity 3d . i am getting ready to give u a big warm wet marshmallow kiss. i hope it is as good for u as it is for me


norral

[3DMonkey]

well i thank you 3d for your kind words. i love u too 3d. i just came back from the diner where i had a burger with fries. i enjoyed it. one thing i did different this time is before i ate it i closed my eyes and bowed my head and gave thanks to my animal brothers for providing this nourishment for me. which is what the american indians did. so i look at it essentially as u do 3d it is just not up to me to make judgements about peoples diet. i dont like or dislike people because of their diet. i find its an energy thing. anyway i embrace all with love and i do feel like a big fluffy marshmellow, i think thats a very good description of who i am . 3d i want to say that i encase u in a big warm wet pool of marshmallow pudding. u and i are now stuck together for all eternity 3d . i am getting ready to give u a big warm wet marshmallow kiss. i hope it is as good for u as it is for me


norral

It genuinely is.

---

Like, when I explain that plants suffer, some vegetarians say it is ridiculous, all the while, meat eaters ridicule vegetarians.

The suffering of a plant is not the same as the suffering of an animal. A tree can suffer somewhat like an animal, but we don't eat trees. A plants suffering is more bound to intention rather than physical harm. An animal, like a tree, is only one Soul evolutionary step away from being able to incarnate into 3D. I would much rather take part in moving evolution in a forward direction than to stay where I am. Not to mention returning with more of a handicap because I refused the lessons put in front of me. I have thousands more lives to go, and really don't want to go backwards in lessons and be born in a place like South Africa or the middle east, or even in a place like this country to parents that prostitute their children for drugs.

I totally understand that view. Do see the discrepancies in perspectives that I was trying to point out? That a meat eater would use your argument similarly in regards to animals?

[BrownEye]

I totally understand that view. Do see the discrepancies in perspectives that I was trying to point out? That a meat eater would use your argument similarly in regards to animals?

I see the argument all the time, but it seems to be more a lack of understanding than simple "what side of the fence".

[kia]

The suffering of a plant is not the same as the suffering of an animal.

Are you sure of that? like 100%? How come?

[BrownEye]

The suffering of a plant is not the same as the suffering of an animal.

Are you sure of that? like 100%? How come?

Firstly I would ask the Soul. It obviously knows more than I do. Any of your subtle bodies will know more about your surroundings than what your brain interprets of wavelengths through the eyes, or what you can come up with based on taught logic.

You might ask why a plant does not suffer when damaged by the forces of nature? And why the plant suffers when the same damage is done by Man, with malicious intent?

An animal that has a certain amount of reasoning ability and the beginnings of self awareness would have a choice to live.

Another way to learn about the plants is to just go communicate with them.

PS: I have noticed that about 70% of those that attempt communicating with their own Soul run into the issue of cognitive dissonance.

Hey Monica, have you read any of this series? http://ringingcedars.com/
My wife is starting the series, but somehow I already know what is in them

[3DMonkey]

suffer |ˈsəfər|
verb [ trans. ]
1 experience or be subjected to (something bad or unpleasant) : he'd suffered intense pain | [ intrans. ] he'd suffered a great deal since his arrest | [as n. ] ( suffering) weapons that cause unnecessary suffering.
• [ intrans. ] ( suffer from) be affected by or subject to (an illness or ailment) : his daughter suffered from agoraphobia.
• [ intrans. ] become or appear worse in quality : his relationship with Anne did suffer.
• [ intrans. ] archaic undergo martyrdom or execution.
2 dated tolerate : France will no longer suffer the existing government.
• allow (someone) to do something : my conscience would not suffer me to accept any more.

[kia]

The suffering of a plant is not the same as the suffering of an animal.

Are you sure of that? like 100%? How come?

Firstly I would ask the Soul. It obviously knows more than I do. Any of your subtle bodies will know more about your surroundings than what your brain interprets of wavelengths through the eyes, or what you can come up with based on taught logic.

You might ask why a plant does not suffer when damaged by the forces of nature? And why the plant suffers when the same damage is done by Man, with malicious intent?

An animal that has a certain amount of reasoning ability and the beginnings of self awareness would have a choice to live.

Another way to learn about the plants is to just go communicate with them.

PS: I have noticed that about 70% of those that attempt communicating with their own Soul run into the issue of cognitive dissonance.

I can´t judge whether plants suffer or not from natural disasters or if animals have reasoning ability and the beginnings of self awareness and plants do not have it. To me they have. The fact that fruits and plants are growing everyday in spite sometimes under strange/poor weather conditions, shows that they are aware of service to us. Don´t you think so?
I might be part of that “70%” as I do experience cognitive dissonance as soon as I´m aware that my acts do not correspond with my principles and beliefs. So whether plants, fruits or animals, I still think they are life as much as you and I are and is wrong killing (cognitive dissonance) but we do, in order to survive. We´ll see, to me at the moment my body is not asking much food, so maybe someday...

[BrownEye]

suffer |ˈsəfər|
verb [ trans. ]
1 experience or be subjected to (something bad or unpleasant) : he'd suffered intense pain | [ intrans. ] he'd suffered a great deal since his arrest | [as n. ] ( suffering) weapons that cause unnecessary suffering.
• [ intrans. ] ( suffer from) be affected by or subject to (an illness or ailment) : his daughter suffered from agoraphobia.
• [ intrans. ] become or appear worse in quality : his relationship with Anne did suffer.
• [ intrans. ] archaic undergo martyrdom or execution.
2 dated tolerate : France will no longer suffer the existing government.
• allow (someone) to do something : my conscience would not suffer me to accept any more.

intransitive verb
1: to endure death, pain, or distress
2: to sustain loss or damage
3: to be subject to disability or handicap

Suf´fer`ing
n. 1. The bearing of pain, inconvenience, or loss; pain endured; distress, loss, or injury incurred; as, sufferings by pain or sorrow; sufferings by want or by wrongs.
a. 1. Being in pain or grief; having loss, injury, distress, etc.


For some people, they need to have experienced suffering before they can experience empathy towards another's suffering.

I shall repeat my words differently, why is it a plant does not suffer at the hand of nature with the same intensity as from the hand of Man?

Quite possible it is simply the intention of consciousness. The free will needed to create a tangible negativity and self importance above all other creation or life.

[3DMonkey]

I shall repeat my words differently, why is it a plant does not suffer at the hand of nature with the same intensity as from the hand of Man?

I don't understand. It is the same intensity.

[kia]

I shall repeat my words differently, why is it a plant does not suffer at the hand of nature with the same intensity as from the hand of Man?

I don't understand. It is the same intensity.

me neither

[Monica]

All of these questions have been discussed previously on this thread, with differing perspectives offered. I invite anyone who hasn't read the whole thread, to do so.

Pickle is offering some new perspectives.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Monica, perusing through this thread, I can't readily find a clear answer to this question (though we've somewhat discussed it before):

Do you automatically equate meat-eating with cruelty to animals?

I answered that question in detail, in this post:

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.ph...7#pid14197

Yeah, I had browsed that post and I guess it answers my question (that you do equate any meat eating with cruelty to animals). Of course it's obvious to me you understand the difference between the typical meat industry and progressive meat industry.

I know the topic has been beat to death whether it's cruel to slaughter 2D beings in the form of plants, and we've even discussed this but I just have some new insights I wanted to smooth out, so I apologize if it's all been said in different words. If you're tired of typing the same thing so many times I completely understand if you don't wish to offer your opinion on this.


I spend a good 5+ hours a day in my produce garden. During this time, I slaughter literally THOUSANDS more 2D beings than with the meat production, and this is the beings slaughtered that aren't being eaten. Bugs and weeds, in order to have healthy crops, must be taken care of. Being organic, I have to personally slaughter these beings myself, and in a spiritual sense it takes a much bigger toll on me than when I slaughter other animals.

Sure, you can place plants or bugs into a "lower life category" than mammals (like your example of protecting a child over a dog). It's very hard for me to do this, especially when they are being slaughtered just for living and doing what they live to do (eat plants and share plant space with other plants) without being used for sustenance in any way. I can be thankful to my produce friends and my animal friends as they provide nutrition and sustenance for myself and my customers who care about how their food is treated (I'd say a good 80% of my customers take much care in knowing the animals are treated humanely and vegetables grown with care). How can I justify the slaughter of literally thousands of beings in my garden? My crops would die if I allowed the weeds to live, and I couldn't sell anything if I allowed the bugs to have their way with my produce. But their life is ended, abruptly and carelessly.

In the end, I feel much better about reuniting my goat and chicken friends with Spirit, knowing I cared for them and appreciated them their entire life, and knowing they provided their life to continue life.

I can't get over the mindless slaughter in my garden though. Thousands fewer 2D beings die in my meat production opposed to my produce production. It is weighing heavy on my heart. I say a prayer for each weed I pull, and each bug I kill, but in the end, it seems so mindless and useless. I long for a time when we can sustain ourselves without slaughter of any entity, whether it be a goat, chicken, aphid, worm, thistle, mushroom, weed, potato, beet, carrot...etc. But until that time, my own personal "hierarchy for life" has little separation from goat to weed, chicken to bug. And I must say, while I am completely free of judgement as you are, I cannot understand how the slaughter of entities to maintain a garden can be so easily brushed off and the slaughter of entities for direct sustenance be rejected.

It's not my place to judge you or anyone else. This isn't a game of "who's the purest of us all". It's a process of raising awareness, and changing our reality to one that isn't violent. You are part of that very important process of change. I commend you for that!

I really appreciate that, and I commend you as well for being so steadfast in your part of the process of change. It's all important.

[Monica]

I really appreciate that, and I commend you as well for being so steadfast in your part of the process of change. It's all important.

Thank you! And the same to you! We are on the same team!

You ask some very good questions, and I do have some opinions I'd like to share. The short answer is, there are ways to not have to kill the bugs, and it entails working with the plant devas. I can't claim success with this, but it is what I aspire to. I just posted some book titles about this very subject, but I forgot which thread it's in. There are a number of books dealing with this.

I don't have time right now though, and won't be back until Sunday. I look forward to delving into this topic then!

[BrownEye]

Another angle to look from. Ra mentions that trees are in a perpetual state akin to meditation. In other words they are not in a waking state. Smaller plants are much in the same state, not having much self awareness. Short lifespans, some only a single year.

How do you operate on a person without allowing them to suffer? You put them in a drug induced state away from wakefulness. Away from self awareness.

These are two completely different states of being/existence, which have a huge bearing on the amount/intensity of suffering.

[Bring4th_Austin]

I really appreciate that, and I commend you as well for being so steadfast in your part of the process of change. It's all important.

Thank you! And the same to you! We are on the same team!

You ask some very good questions, and I do have some opinions I'd like to share. The short answer is, there are ways to not have to kill the bugs, and it entails working with the plant devas. I can't claim success with this, but it is what I aspire to. I just posted some book titles about this very subject, but I forgot which thread it's in. There are a number of books dealing with this.

I don't have time right now though, and won't be back until Sunday. I look forward to delving into this topic then!

I look forward to it. Just so you have some background on what I try to do to control/reduce waste, all of the beetles/grubs/young weeds I can collect to give to my chickens I do, which I'd say accounts for about 1/8th in total (I think that's an awesome number). I release natural bug predators, mainly praying mantis lady bugs. I ask faeries and sprites for help which seems to work sometimes (I swear I've seen them in my garden!!). I will also meditate with the intention of asking all the buggers to leave my garden be, or offer them a particular plant or row of plants. It's hit and miss, and with expanding production these techniques seem to work less.

Another angle to look from. Ra mentions that trees are in a perpetual state akin to meditation. In other words they are not in a waking state. Smaller plants are much in the same state, not having much self awareness. Short lifespans, some only a single year.

How do you operate on a person without allowing them to suffer? You put them in a drug induced state away from wakefulness. Away from self awareness.

These are two completely different states of being/existence, which have a huge bearing on the amount/intensity of suffering.

For me, it is much less about suffering. I am confident my animals do not suffer even while leaving this physical reality, unless I'm using a processing facility I don't like. There's an amazingly progressive processing facility/alternative energy campus being built near here which I have a lot of stake in, which will take every excruciating step possible to reduce fear in the facility (along with using complete alternative energy and having ZERO waste....awesome!).

You could kill someone while they're asleep and they could suffer none, I would not see this as (much) better than killing someone who suffers.

[BrownEye]

Elephants and dolphins have the same self awareness as we do. Evolved a quite a bit higher than other animals, even our genetic relatives, the ape.

The Golden Rule should encompass all life imbued with self awareness.

[3DMonkey]

Elephants and dolphins have the same self awareness as we do. Evolved a quite a bit higher than other animals...

...and plants.

The Golden Rule should encompass all life imbued with self awareness.

Self awareness is yellow ray third density existence.

[Bring4th_Austin]

The Golden Rule should encompass all life imbued with self awareness.

Is this a personal philosophy, or is it derived somewhere within the Law of One?

I can respect and understand it in relation to our particular reality, but cannot see it congruent to an undistorted Law of One.

[kycahi]

The good news about living in 3D is that, basically, anything goes, according to the LOO.

Having said that though, you can choose not to eat animal flesh when you accept the ideas that not eating animal products will be good for your physical health and for your mental and spiritual health too.

Only go that far when you want to, not from reading or hearing any argument that makes you feel guilty from eating animal. You can accept that many animals on our planet live and die for human consumption. You also can accept that you don't need to consume any of them to live well.

If you believe that you need to consume animal flesh to live well, explore alternate ideas.

[Monica]

Only go that far when you want to, not from reading or hearing any argument that makes you feel guilty from eating animal.

I don't understand this. Emotions exist for a reason; they serve to alert us to shifts in consciousness.

The emotion guilt, exists for a reason: to alert us to something that needs changing, or something we did that could be done better in the future, or even perhaps to something that needs reconciliation or amends.

Why is guilt so taboo? Why is it so popular to deny, suppress, and ignore feelings of guilt?

[Ankh]

The emotion guilt, exists for a reason: to alert us to something that needs changing, or something we did that could be done better in the future, or even perhaps to something that needs reconciliation or amends.

I find another aspect of the guilt crucial: to put aside the pride and learn the profound humility by accepting whatever one is feeling guilty for.

[Confused]

Why is it so popular to deny, suppress, and ignore feelings of guilt?

Because it reminds us that we are indeed all things! Just my personal thought.

[3DMonkey]

Only go that far when you want to, not from reading or hearing any argument that makes you feel guilty from eating animal.

I don't understand this. Emotions exist for a reason; they serve to alert us to shifts in consciousness.

The emotion guilt, exists for a reason: to alert us to something that needs changing, or something we did that could be done better in the future, or even perhaps to something that needs reconciliation or amends.

Why is guilt so taboo? Why is it so popular to deny, suppress, and ignore feelings of guilt?

The mind can justify anything, everything, to feel guilty. Guilt is a useful emotion. It indicates that we are not forgiving ourselves. (Like Ankh was saying, a tool to indicate where acceptance is warranted)

[BrownEye]

Why is it so popular to deny, suppress, and ignore feelings of guilt?

Because it reminds us that we are indeed all things! Just my personal thought.

And since I am all things I decided I don't like being kept in a facility, having scraps of my relatives put in my grain, when I am not even evolved enough to consume grain, simply to fatten me up enough for you to slice me up into little pieces and put my pieces on display in Walmart.

I sure miss my coffees in the morning

[3DMonkey]

I am not this body.

[BrownEye]

I am not this body.

Why do you eat?

[kycahi]

I resonated with being told that guilt is human and destructive. Shame, OTOH, is good because you can learn from it and then dismiss it. Sometimes you can see shame in a dog or cat, but never guilt.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Many of my friends who were able to break free from the grasps of fundamental Christianity say that the worse thing about it was the guilt it instilled in their life.

I do not believe this kind of guilt is healthy. I think that the topic of guilt is huge and probably deserves its own thread.