Comparing Ra and the Cassiopaeans

[Agua]

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[Patrick]

I think they have kept this in mind at all times and successfully threaded around the pitfalls inherent in doing this work.

Interesting perspective!

Carla often talked on that subject.

There is a book as well:  A Channeling Handbook by Carla L. Rueckert

Written for channels and those who would like to improve their channeling. Topics include:

-What is channeling?
-Why channel?
-Psychic greetings/attacks
-Temptations and the ethics of channeling

Without constant effort on this front. It's just a matter of time before a channel becomes detuned.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

I think they have kept [danger of corruption] in mind at all times and successfully threaded around the pitfalls inherent in doing this work.

Interesting perspective!

In things outside the Ra contact done by LLR, I'm not fully clear on the aim and nature of the activity -- and so how to view the greater whole, and so the question of corruption as things have shaped up over time.

I think a "soft neutralization" may have happened, where the material was never corrupted, but its practical significance was lessened. Don Elkins carried a big piece of the key to the nature of it all and really making the most of the inspiration, and the loss of him was not compensated for in the continuation of activities. The narrowing of focus of LLR as a result created a vacuum filled by, e.g. the Cassiopaean Experiment.

Back in 2009, the kind of discussion in this thread was not allowed on this forum. LLR tried to generally keep B4 pure by limiting the focus narrowly, preventing discussion of and comparison with other channeled sources, etc. The narrowness of focus was later given up, and then a new general challenge became a diluted focus in the absence of having any wider examination and synthesis connected to the heart of it all.

Basically, I think LLR made itself and B4 irrelevant for many by setting too insular and self-limiting a focus. A decade later, while they change approach, people immersed in alternatives which have long claimed to do right what the original LLR trio did wrong, now have enough information for a clearer new look, in potential, with effort to examine stuff. (I used to think LKJ's criticisms were reasonable and showed how the Cassiopaean Experiment took on the next challenge of growing into a new paradigm, while others stepped away from trying to do so. But then, it turns out they replaced one self-harming imbalance with another which has different negative consequences.)

[Agua]

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[Agua]

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[Patrick]

I did not mean to include these forums in my earlier comments.

I meant only the Ra Material and LLR's transcript library of channelings.

[zedro]

Distortion or corruption would not only appear by giving wrong information.
It would also (and probably more often) appear by giving correct information, but in a way that has no relevance to actual personal growth.
Meaning, you can give people correct information but still keep them from evolving.
So the goal of negative interference would be reached in a very elegant way!

Exactly what is called 'the New Age Trap', where deeper discussion can be instantly cut down by over simplified statements such as "but we are all One!" and "there are no mistakes!"...ok, then what sunshine? The Ra contact may have given an important (but very basic/watered down version of our) metaphysical structure needed to put some aspects of our world into perspective, but to assume it was great spiritual teachings for 3d perspectives (or for your particular incarnational path) should really be questioned, because I can see how it may be misapplied to keep people in the 'well of indifference' all while they convince themselves of being enlightened.

I know many don't believe in this concept, but in order for divine intervention to occur (which this is) it has to be agreed upon by both the light and the dark that govern this realm for equal opportunity balance. This means the potential the message has on people can play to eithers favor, and this wouldn't necessarily mean to promote STS, but to potentially stunt advanced STO growth thru confusion which may appear as spiritual certainty. (Side note, this is why I believe the channel was mostly intended for wanderers to anchor to).

If anything I would accuse the material of falling short, and this may be due to the above limitations. I feel the message only gave a small little window into the vast ecosystem, which may give some a false sense of security. While the material was important to complement my 'awakening', it only proceeded it, and my experiences have already demonstrated it's pitfalls and limitations if you take it as the only true gospel. I would liken it to an introductory class, and a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, so to speak.

To add: I don't want to give the impression that I'm against anything here, just want to point out that there is alot more to consider beyond the material itself, and as always, discernment is key.

[Patrick]

Wouldn’t you think other channels and channelers aren’t aware of this,too?
...

From what I have seen, many channelers relaxes the challenging after a while.  Not all channels.  But it's been a while that I did not read recently channeled material that was not obviously tainted by negative influences.  Often quite subtle, but definitely there and more often not so subtle at all.

...What is so different about LLResearch and Bring4th, that they don’t fall prey to all of that?

(excluding Bring4th here)

I believe they (in particular Carla) made it an absolute priority to always properly challenge their source.  Often re-challenging right in the middle of a sentence during a channeling session.

[Patrick]

...as always, discernment is key.

Amen to that.

All seekers will find what they need when they need it. From any sources of information.

I still read from many sources, even those I think are more or less hijacked. It's just that I have noticed that the amount I filter out for myself has been increasing a lot from the majority of the channels out there.

So discernment is definitely a must.

[Agua]

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[Patrick]

It's all distorted.  No exceptions... because words are distortions.

...
I would add, this whole „accurate“ vs. „non-accurate“ (or any other term) is a problem in itself anyway.
...

It can only be accurate or not for the reader.  Nothing one has discerned (or judged) to be accurate or not can ever be applied to others.

I do not believe anyone would like to build some kind of dogma around the Ra Material.  That would be counter productive for sure.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

I'll try that reversing, seems to work well here...

I just realized you actually mentioned the lessening of "practical significance".

The classic old controversy is whether groups with too much of a New Age "just focus on love and light" bias set themselves up for failure by not wizening up enough to negative dynamics, or by generally shutting out reality too much.

Lots of people went to the Cassiopaea community because they were convinced that ignoring scary stuff and calling teachings which examine them "fear-based" was a cheap cop-out by the scared who simply want to hide from reality. (Such a view is also, in a nutshell, LKJ's view, which she argues for in her "The Wave" series and later writings.)

A kind of middle ground is exemplified by Montalk, who dives into matters of STS agendas without in the process becoming consumed by paranoia, or turning into an egomaniac. He doesn't lose sight of other stuff which e.g. LKJ dismisses or simply ignores while communities like this still explore them (while limiting focus in other ways).

Distortion or corruption would not only appear by giving wrong information.
It would also (and probably more often) appear by giving correct information, but in a way that has no relevance to actual personal growth.
Meaning, you can give people correct information but still keep them from evolving.
So the goal of negative interference would be reached in a very elegant way!

That can happen in several ways.

Negative sources can hand out lots of attention-grabbing stuff which is practically useless, which mainly distracts.

Positive sources can end up receiving too limited a range of questions, or face an audience too closed-minded in some way to allow giving the most useful answers without infringing free will.

In the Ra contact, going by the "Re-listening Report" at lawofone.info, Ra probably wanted more exploration of archetypal mind matters -- maybe more of that sooner could have changed the trajectory of what happened, who knows? Ra quickened the pace and seemed eager about such topics.

I just imagine a group of people gathering regularly,for channeling and then saying one evening "Oh, nothing substantial today, lets call it a day and try next time".

Lots of LLR channeling prior to the Ra contact, and similar by other groups, got very repetitive. Sometimes, perhaps it's just practicing -- analogous to learning to play an instrument -- and later there was the Ra contact in LLR's case, but in many cases there's nothing more ever happening. Could be a variety of reasons for such patterns.

As for "the material was never corrupted", assuming you speak of the Ra material:

I surely cannot judge if it is corrupted or not.
But definetely I am aware of distortions it has.
Believing blindly in an infallibility or divine purées,of any channeled material would make you very blind to the distortions it has.

That would probably also be a,potential temptation for a channeled, I guess.
However, this is much more the reader's responsibility to discern than the channelers.

I also think it's got flaws. And I think the Cassiopaean material actually clarifies some basic things, left too fuzzy in the Ra material, and deals with at least some low-hanging fruit well in going further. But I think it also contains fairly obvious falsehood, and that the distortion it has is more harmful than that in the Ra material.

I don't believe anybody involved in either the Ra contact, or Quo channelings or B4 Forum views this as a market.
So, it wouldn't be really relevant, if someone else fills a perceived gap.

The questions of gaps and too-narrow focus is in relation to looking for broader and fuller "understanding". As a counterargument I would expect a case for, "nothing is truly missing", or simply a "I personally don't care", rather than talking about markets. However, I would plainly be wrong in expecting that if it is simply not a priority to try to understand reality in the community in general. (Makes sense for LLR without Don Elkins, may have been different if he had remained longer.)

[Dtris]

Without constant effort on this front.  It's just a matter of time before a channel becomes detuned.

Wouldn’t you think other channels and channelers aren’t aware of this,too?

Also, the organizations or rather „followers“ surrounding channels or spiritual teachers usually heavily pervert and distort the original message.

What is so different about LLResearch and Bring4th, that they don’t fall prey to all of that?

From the channeled material I have encountered outside of LLR, most channelers are not aware of the potential for issues with regards to negative greetings, negative messages, message drift from transient material, or their own biases infusing the material.

Let us look at Neal Donald Walsh for example. He started channeling thru automatic writing. This was natural as he was already a writer. "God" came thru. From the perspective of many people who have read his books this is the "real" God. From the perspective of those of us who are familiar with a variety of channeled works and mysticism and esotericism, we can say that it was god but also not. He was most likely channeling his Higher Self. There is clear bias in how the material came thru, but it is accepted by him as basically unbiased.

In this example Walsh was completely unfamiliar with channeling before he started. This is a fairly common theme which recurs among channelers is that the first channeling was spontaneous. A similar start was there for the Seth material.

As to the followers, the game of telephone will always exist and the distortion of messages with each iteration. Combine this with the tendency of people who desire to attach themselves to a community for reasons of blind faith and self indulgence, and you will always have the issue of the source material being distorted.

Where LLR is unique IMO is that from the beginning Don approached the whole affair as an experiment. There was no attachment to outcome and there was a system developed for the learning of channeling. If you haven't read the earliest sessions in the archive it is elucidating. Most channels are specific to an individual or group. Just like Kryon, or Seth, or Ra. What is unique among LLR is that the channeled groups jump from person to person and over the years many different people have channeled the other entities.

This combined with the nature of the Ra material attract a type of person who is very open and accepting as well as oriented toward a lack of blind acceptance. Most of us have a broad base of knowledge and Ra is an important piece that at least for me, is the cornerstone. While Ra does have it's adherents and blind followers they have not been a sole voice for the material IME.

Cassiopaean Transcripts if my memory serves are also only a single source channeled by LKJ and they have not demonstrated the ability to move to other channels. The material itself requires a more faith based approach and is not as inherently accepting as is LLR material. There is also more fear present in the Q&A of that material in my own opinion. All of these increase the likelihood of message drift and negative interference. Assuming the message started as positive to begin with.

[Patrick]

...
Where LLR is unique IMO is that from the beginning Don approached the whole affair as an experiment. There was no attachment to outcome and there was a system developed for the learning of channeling. If you haven't read the earliest sessions in the archive it is elucidating. Most channels are specific to an individual or group. Just like Kryon, or Seth, or Ra. What is unique among LLR is that the channeled groups jump from person to person and over the years many different people have channeled the other entities.
...

This is well put.  Not sure if LLR is unique in that way, but it is definitely uncommon.

[zedro]

From the channeled material I have encountered outside of LLR, most channelers are not aware of the potential for issues with regards to negative greetings, negative messages, message drift from transient material, or their own biases infusing the material.

Exactly, the LL group didn't appear to be aware of this possibility either until they were warned of the 5d neg interest in the channeling itself. And it didn't appear like they fully appreciated how serious of a matter it was, and it eventually led to disastrous circumstances (in some people's opinion, including my own).

There's a pet concept that I like to call 'the David Icke I am Jesus moment', where his divine interface led him to destroying his reputation on TV for all to see, and yet he still pushes a hard line on certain concepts which cloud the positive messaging he most likely was slated to deliver. Another big name is David Wilcock, who bought into a 2012 cataclysm (among other distorted themes), and despite having an overall positive message, is still (arguably) being manipulated to some degree. These are people who are fully aware of potential negative influences, yet still fall into the traps (although Wilcock seems to be more self aware and tends to at least give a disclaimer on his thoughts).

For myself, this was demonstrated to me in quite a compressed way, a controlled demolition you could say, and even then I was not naive to the potentials beforehand, but I had not fully worked out how such deep level deception could occur, and so I was taught in a very practical way. I was very fortunate that I was surrounded by loving and understanding people (some aware, some not), otherwise it could have been game over for me in a few different ways had this test not have any safety's in place (this is part of my blueprint, others may not be so fortunate, as I have witnessed first hand). We are the masters of self deception, and those entities outside our veiled consciousness are masters of this illusion.

If there is one way of describing what I believe the main pitfall in these forums/material could be, is the potential for spiritual bypassing. This may be of no real consequence for some, but potentially dangerous for others (as far as our short term evolutionary goals would be, i.e. maximising potential). Of course some need to break a leg to learn (or start a new incarnation), but it's always nicer if it didn't have to come to that, well in my view anyways

[Agua]

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[Patrick]

...the LL group didn't appear to be aware of this possibility either until they were warned of the 5d neg interest in the channeling itself...

That would be news to me. It is my understanding that Carla was challenging the source from the '70s on up.

[Patrick]

...The tuning and challenging process is at the heart of responsible channeling...

...You are also, once you receive a contact, in need of your actively
discriminative faculties in challenging the source that you have contacted.
In order to challenge any invisible entity, you must be able to state, in a
sincere and unequivocal way, who you are, what you believe in, what you
love and for what you would die. This is why the beginning of the process
of becoming a channel is figuring out how your nature and mind “tick.”
You cannot expect to challenge in the name of Christ if you are of a nature
that does not find faith a comfortable emotion. You are not going to be
able to challenge in the name of truth if you believe there is no truth, and
that man can know nothing. Let us say that you are one who believes—as
the majority of new age channels seem to do—in the Christ, not as Jesus
the man, but as a consciousness which Jesus attained during his
incarnation, but which is also attainable by any being who can keep his
mind, soul, heart and strength fixed upon the Creator. You wish, then, to
challenge in the name of Christ-consciousness. You feel, or you guess, that
this is something that you can believe in. In this very complex society we
are not used to saying things in a way which implies no relativity. We are
used to situational ethics, wrong things being “right” under certain
circumstances, and people leaving our religious beliefs pretty much alone in
the interest of getting along with each other. It may be difficult for you to
say unequivocally that you would die before you would deny the supremacy
of the force of Christ-consciousness in your life...

Properly challenging is a challenging concept.

[Dtris]

From the channeled material I have encountered outside of LLR, most channelers are not aware of the potential for issues with regards to negative greetings, negative messages, message drift from transient material, or their own biases infusing the material.

Exactly, the LL group didn't appear to be aware of this possibility either until they were warned of the 5d neg interest in the channeling itself. And it didn't appear like they fully appreciated how serious of a matter it was, and it eventually led to disastrous circumstances (in some people's opinion, including my own).

There's a pet concept that I like to call 'the David Icke I am Jesus moment', where his divine interface led him to destroying his reputation on TV for all to see, and yet he still pushes a hard line on certain concepts which cloud the positive messaging he most likely was slated to deliver. Another big name is David Wilcock, who bought into a 2012 cataclysm (among other distorted themes), and despite having an overall positive message, is still (arguably) being manipulated to some degree. These are people who are fully aware of potential negative influences, yet still fall into the traps (although Wilcock seems to be more self aware and tends to at least give a disclaimer on his thoughts).

For myself, this was demonstrated to me in quite a compressed way, a controlled demolition you could say, and even then I was not naive to the potentials beforehand, but I had not fully worked out how such deep level deception could occur, and so I was taught in a very practical way. I was very fortunate that I was surrounded by loving and understanding people (some aware, some not), otherwise it could have been game over for me in a few different ways had this test not have any safety's in place (this is part of my blueprint, others may not be so fortunate, as I have witnessed first hand). We are the masters of self deception, and those entities outside our veiled consciousness are masters of this illusion.

If there is one way of describing what I believe the main pitfall in these forums/material could be, is the potential for spiritual bypassing. This may be of no real consequence for some, but potentially dangerous for others (as far as our short term evolutionary goals would be, i.e. maximising potential). Of course some need to break a leg to learn (or start a new incarnation), but it's always nicer if it didn't have to come to that, well in my view anyways

The LL group was aware of the STS attempts to contaminate STO channeled messages years before Ra became a source. It is part of their protocol to challenge the entity in the name of Jesus, or God, whatever higher power the channeler believes in. There are transcripts before Ra appears which she does exactly that when she starts getting messages that seem they could be distorted.

Since the Law of One was published and is available on its own as the most popular of LLR material, people overlook that these sessions were part of a larger context. I have been reading from the first published session in the archive and am in 1982 now in the middle of the Ra material. There are usually 2-3 sessions with other channelings in between each of the Ra sessions. The material preceding the Ra sessions also lays a clear foundation upon which Ra built.

I also try not to ever speculate on people I don't knows state of mind. It doesn't serve a useful purpose IMO.

You bring up Icke and Wilcock. I think you are making an error in attributing the missteps of these public figures to negative influence. While that is a possibility, it is much more likely that these fellow flawed humans have their own biases and errors which they make. Wilcock personally led me to the Ra material and I have a huge amount of respect for him and his work, even if there are portions I personally disagree with.

It is easy to attribute our mistakes and failings to an outside influence. What is important to remember is that the creation is one. Any demon is both an external influence, and a part of yourself. Whatever influence something has over someone, is ultimately a part of themselves. Even in the most tragic and horrific of circumstances.

[zedro]

...the LL group didn't appear to be aware of this possibility either until they were warned of the 5d neg interest in the channeling itself...

That would be news to me.  It is my understanding that Carla was challenging the source from the '70s on up.

This was my impression from within the Ra contact sessions itself, I shouldn't have implied this in general as I haven't seeked out previous material. When I was first reading thru the Ra material, it was synchronous with a friend I knew who was also channeling. I saw the parallels unfold in real time, and it didn't turn out so well for the friend (whom I had to cut contact with as a result). So perhaps this has peppered my view of the early sessions.

[zedro]

You bring up Icke and Wilcock. I think you are making an error in attributing the missteps of these public figures to negative influence. While that is a possibility, it is much more likely that these fellow flawed humans have their own biases and errors which they make. Wilcock personally led me to the Ra material and I have a huge amount of respect for him and his work, even if there are portions I personally disagree with.

It is easy to attribute our mistakes and failings to an outside influence. What is important to remember is that the creation is one. Any demon is both an external influence, and a part of yourself. Whatever influence something has over someone, is ultimately a part of themselves. Even in the most tragic and horrific of circumstances.

I agree, I'll never attribute anything to be exclusively either internal failings or external influences, it's impossible to exactly dissect the two, as the external acts on our own weaknesses (blockages), it's one of the basis for catalyst and walking that 'free will' line. My circle calls it "chinks in the armour", meaning you can only allow 'things' to affect you based on your (energetic) weakness, and the goal is to fortify yourself thru Wisdom and Love to make yourself as impenetrable/resiliant as possible, to be the most effective 'Warrior' you can be. And while study is one aspect to this fortification, as Agua points out, the practical applicability in the end is what matters, because the tests and consequences are real (in this context).

As for Wilcock, I feel the same way, and has done a tremendous service, the point was that he admits to "falling for" some premises given to him, and the risk was (is) his legacy/teachings, and the potential collapse is something everyone should learn from. He gets alot of undeserved flak IMO, and I appreciate the situation he's in is fraught with pitfalls. I do believe the more light you try to shine, the more undesirable attention one may get. It's a part of the game here.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

This combined with the nature of the Ra material attract a type of person who is very open and accepting as well as oriented toward a lack of blind acceptance. Most of us have a broad base of knowledge and Ra is an important piece that at least for me, is the cornerstone. While Ra does have it's adherents and blind followers they have not been a sole voice for the material IME.

Cassiopaean Transcripts if my memory serves are also only a single source channeled by LKJ and they have not demonstrated the ability to move to other channels. The material itself requires a more faith based approach and is not as inherently accepting as is LLR material. There is also more fear present in the Q&A of that material in my own opinion. All of these increase the likelihood of message drift and negative interference. Assuming the message started as positive to begin with.

In the modern Cassiopaean channeling (after that of the older years which e.g. Montalk finds of much better quality), they've experimented to varying extents here and there with who plays how large a role at the board which is used. It's a bit more flexible than LKJ always having her hand in the process of letters and other symbols being selected.

But as for other groups channeling who are not part of the gathering in her home -- it's very, very strongly frowned upon. Experiments in channeling by others in that online community are viewed as irresponsible and even outright dangerous. Because, or so it goes, it's extremely difficult to produce anything other than pure crap, and only a very rare few individuals have the required nature. Furthermore, it makes the people involved vulnerable to creepy higher-density STS dynamics.

Supposedly, the Cassiopaea community is really, really good at combining "open-mindedness" and "critical-mindedness", but in practice, while LKJ and the group consensus approach takes a hard stance in terms of asserting, "there is no belief system" (and so no dogmatism to go along with one), I think it's obvious that there is.

It's great how they in earlier years put information together that may help people be safe and avoid pitfalls in spiritual journeys, but then it's transformed into a one-size-fits-all straitjacket instead of being developed into whatever tools different kinds of individuals may find useful.

Well, as for the Ra material, one thing should be noted:

Ta exclusively answered questions.
So they did not speak on something that wasn't asked.
So obviously the questioner would be a main source of distortion.

Not necessarily in the sense of evoking inaccurate answers, more in the sense of simply,asking questions that are not very helpful.

Or simply leaving gaps in the types of questions asked, or prioritizing unwisely among questions.

Don Elkins had his rough vision for what kinds of questions to explore for a structured presentation for a series of books. Maybe he over-planned, in part? Or maybe he planned too soon, and more questions first for the group to orient themselves better, maybe even asking Ra more about types of questions -- since Ra obviously had some preferences ("Re-listening Report", again) -- would have made for a different and better planning afterwards.

LKJ's old comments come to mind, regarding how Don and the others obviously made judgments about the spiritual value of questions in advance. LKJ's theory on why Don was left so vulnerable was that they were too prejudiced to ask the questions that could have given the information needed for effective protection (instead of ineffective things fixated upon). But unlike my comment in the previous post, LKJ had the main idea that more questions about higher-density STS beings and dynamics were what was missing -- the type of information explored in the Cassiopaean material in the early years.

If it's for the purpose of spiritual evolution, obviously the main focus would have to be on practical ways to grow, heal and evolve.
At least from my perspective, as accurate as much information on the material may be, it doesn't offer much in a practical way in terms of how do I heal, grow or evolve.
There is definetely a ton of material out there which has a lot more of stuff to offer in a way that can be applied to your spiritual development.

There is a striking similarity with the older Fourth Way teaching, especially the structured presentations by Ouspensky and Mouravieff. Looking at the cosmologies and the schematic structures used, the teachings appear to be related -- the human origins are separate, but I don't know of as large a correspondence between the Law of One and any other older teaching.

In the cosmology part, the Ra material is better developed, though the Fourth Way provides what I think is some missing parts of structure for the same overall "system".

But in the psychology part, the Fourth Way "psychology" really shines -- it provides a different system (functional centers clearly related to experience of consciousness vs. chakras), more elaborate, and I think more practical.

LKJ found Mouravieff's Gnosis useful for bridging the gap between the Cassiopaean teaching and various historical teachings, but I think it would be an even better match with the Ra material.

I basically think a careful comparison of Law of One and the Fourth Way systematizations could give a synthesis that honors the structure (in part common, in part differing) while correcting the weakest points of both. But it's far easier said than done.

What I find much more "unhelpful" than the lack of practical advice is the way in which the material is presented, which is in my opinion it's biggest distortion.

When I read,through, I am very much reminded of Autism.
While that might be a consequence of the difficulty of bridging several densities, the effect it has is pretty much counter-productive.
It kind of pulls you out of physical reality into a preatty much information based,and thus abstract realm, that otis not so much connected with physical reality, similar to the core problem of Autism, that's why it reminds me of that.

I would say that spiritual evolution is about embodying divine consciousness in physical reality, and in that regard it seems, although the information in the material might be quite "pure", it actually has a very negative effect on your spiritual development.

Thats where I see a huge negative distortion in the material.

Basically, your complaint sounds like it's about the need to focus more intensely in order to get something out of the text, instead of being able to read it in a more habitual way, like the newspaper. Gurdjieff had the idea that that's a good thing -- that's why he made Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson way, way "worse" a text than the Law of One -- because habitual associations are a wall shutting out new realizations.

Gurdjieff may have gone overboard, and I can't claim to find his magnum opus a great read. (But the introduction he wrote -- supposedly meant to offend some types of readers -- is one of the most hilarious texts I have ever read.) Ra did something milder in avoiding some conventional idioms and other wordings because, or so it seems from some motivations in exchanges, conventional associations produce too distorted a meaning.

Anyway, I don't really get your point. Spirituality involves moving away from the physical world and then back, through contemplation, meditation, etc., along with other things which may push the boundary in the opposite (more conscioiusly embodied) direction. Doesn't it make sense for contemplative spiritual material to involve a move away from the physical and into the abstract for a while?

[Agua]

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[Patrick]

...When you start to delve deep within, you will imevitably encounter fear, because this was (and still is) the reason you seperated from your Self...

Isn't the reason we separated from ourselves just to know ourselves better ? Why would we have done that out of fear ?

[Agua]

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[Patrick]

...When you start to delve deep within, you will imevitably encounter fear, because this was (and still is) the reason you seperated from your Self...

Isn't the reason we separated from ourselves just to know ourselves better ?  Why would we have done that out of fear ?

Of course, while not incarnated, we have chosen this seperation.
But how do you think it has been established in this incarnation?

Have you ever met someone who has worked through this, his blockages, his trauma, who not had to go through that fear?

I am not sure if I understood your question really.
I assume it was a serious question?

Ah I thought you were talking about the first separation from ourselves.  As in the One Infinite Creator choosing to explore many-ness.

But I see now that you mean from within our current incarnation here in 3d space/time.  That fear prevents us from bringing our whole self up into the light of our conscious self all at once.

Yes there is a lot of work to do in that regard.

Still, I am not sure I would say that it is fear that established the veil in this incarnation.  Unless you mean that we are born without the veil and that we create the veil as we go in the way we are raised and with societal structures ?

[Agua]

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[Patrick]

It's an interesting perspective.

Maybe the only hard limitation is in our makeup as a complex version of entities. The first entities of this Octave were not created with such limitations. They were mind/body/spirit and we are mind/body/spirit complexes.

And indeed for us, detaching from working with the physical while incarnated would be counter productive. The physical world catalysts are called by each of us so we can do work on the self.

[Agua]

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[MrWho]

This is the first I have heard of the Cassiopaeans and Laura.

From what I can see in meditation about her; is that she has at will command to connect energy centers one through six to the eigth. I know of only two other individuals capable of this.

However she has not attained 7th to 8th. As is true with the other two I mention.

What I can see is that Carla Jim and Don each had a peice to the puzzle.

Carla had 4th to 8th, Jim had 7th to 8th(and still does), and don had 5th to 8th. It is their harmony that gave such a powerful connection to unity and ability to channel Ra.

Laura channels alone. One is lesser than three.

Make of this what you will.

They key as has been said before was Jim.