Is 4D less or more dense than 3D?

[AnthroHeart]

Ra says that fourth density is a denser illusion. But everyone I talk to says that fourth density is less dense than 3D.
I had a channeling from a Sassani that said 4D is less dense than 3D.

How come Ra says it is more dense?


29.20 Questioner: Thank you. Then when our planet Earth here gets fully into fourth density, will there be a greater gravity?

Ra: I am Ra. There will be a greater spiritual gravity thus causing a denser illusion.

[Infinite]

In the context of Ra, density is something like "filled with light". Therefore, higher densities are more light-filled than 3D.

Occultist / spiritualist sources generally speak of dimensions more subtle than the physical plane, that is, this plane would be denser. In this case, it refer to the rate of vibration of matter and its tangibility.

It's therefore different concepts.

[Dtris]

Red light has the slowest frequency, and the longest wavelength. Violet light has the fastest frequency and the shortest wavelength. As we move thru the color spectrum from red to violet it appears that light is denser. In this case denser means you will experience more individual waves per unit of time.

While that is the measurements of light in 3rd density physical reality, this should be able to let us see a more unified principle in how light works. It should not imply that our current visible spectrum is the equivalent of the light color densities Ra and the confederation discuss.

[Patrick]

More packed/dense with life.  Our denser bodies will be made of stuff that is more packed with life.

[unity100]

Every higher density is more dense than the one before, entities are closer, more reachable.

[Black Dragon]

I think arguably both in some ways. I'd say there are some aspects of 4d that would seem less dense/less "frozen"/more spacious, expansive, excited if you will(picture particles heated up and stuff). What exactly those aspects are don't immediately come to mind, but I'm sure one could sit down and analyze/intuit. Most things, however, are more dense. Consciousness is certainly more dense. Your thoughts and the thoughts of other-selves, for instance, are more densely cohabiting the same space and less separate, for example.

That's the "quick and dirty" that comes immediately to mind, and I'm no expert. Overall though, what I'm getting is that most things will seem more dense, with a few key aspects that seem less dense than 3d reality.

[Sacred Fool]

  
To me, the salient point is that the more intense the light, the able one is to be of service to the one Creatrix.  Same goes for 3D life.  The more one swims in the waters of purer love, the more one is able to be of service.
  

[Ohr Ein Sof]

Less ***Material*** density perhaps what others are probably meaning and more light filled which according to what Ra says is more dense.

[flofrog]

Less ***Material*** density perhaps what others are probably meaning and more light filled which according to what Ra says is more dense.

Lol, exactly what I was thinking, the semantic meaning of density.... as in being dense...

[Ohr Ein Sof]

  
To me, the salient point is that the more intense the light, the able one is to be of service to the one Creatrix.  Same goes for 3D life.  The more one swims in the waters of purer love, the more one is able to be of service.
  

Yes. I agree, although, would only like to add that even the darkest of any imaginings is of service also; even to the Creator.
However, I love the statement of, "The more one swims in the waters of purer love"

[zedro]

More dense = more information, higher complexity, more organized, a deeper magnification into the fractal landscape. Think conscience increasing in depth. The basic building block is light (structured energy/vibration, not what we consider to be photons). I think this is also just a limitation of the English language trying to describe a new concept (well for our Western Christian culture anyways)

Mass is an illusion anyways. It's all 'light'.

[omcasey]

Great question! Great answers!

[meadow-foreigner]

As far as I can tell, one should not mistake 4D (timespace and/or spacetime) with 3D, although that might be common. 4D is indeed more dense, more vivid, and fuller of life. It's like comparing a 144p video to a 4K. This not to mention the additional perks and abilities that are available on 4D, due to the variable physicality.

[Kadoki]

Ra says that fourth density is a denser illusion. But everyone I talk to says that fourth density is less dense than 3D.
I had a channeling from a Sassani that said 4D is less dense than 3D.

How come Ra says it is more dense?


29.20 Questioner: Thank you. Then when our planet Earth here gets fully into fourth density, will there be a greater gravity?

Ra: I am Ra. There will be a greater spiritual gravity thus causing a denser illusion.

The older we get the less illusions we have causing a denser illusion but "we" in a lot of senses become more "dense" as we age as well.

[jafar]

I initially confused when I heard this terminology of 1,2,3,4 D.

But this description from 'another source' seem to describe it well for me, although I don't know if it concur with Mr Ra's definition of D / Density or not. Somebody who are more 'proficient' with Mr Ra's material perhaps can chip in their opinion.

Swaruu: 4D is a lighter version of 3D. It's what they call the astral or lower astral. It's just a frequency above 3D and there are many creatures, many scary ones in 4D, but people cannot see them even if they do interact with them every day. Now other people may explain 4D as something else. But this is our interpretation.

As best as we can and as relevant as we can. 4D is the frontier or frequency border between 5d and 3D. Take it as a buffer zone. Not quite 3D not quite 5D. Now someone in 5D can perceive everything in 4D, 3D, 2D and 1D but not 6D and above because number 5 is made of numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 and itself 5. When you are in any density you are in a frequency match to it, so as with the example of the cars... you can see what's there because you are moving as fast as the rest in that particular frequency.

Both 3D and 4D exist naturally as well as 2D and 1D, they are part of 5D. You experience 2D as part of 3D, you can hardly see them apart. Same with 4D and 3D. There cannot be a complete hard "wall" between 3D and 5D, there is still a gradient there, that gradient is 4D.

In 1D you are a mineral, you are and you don't know that you are.

In 2D you are only starting to be aware that you are something separate to the others.

In 3D you have an identity as you now know that you are an ego, you are you and there are others.

In 4D you are starting to be aware that you are not only you, but you are part of others.

In 5D you have a clear identity, but no longer an ego as such, you are more of a conscious self an "I" and you are aware that you both are you and you are others as well.

from: https://swaruu.org/transcripts/densities...-taygeta-6

Based on that definition, then I say yes 4D (Lower Astral) is 'less dense' than 3D.
In a sense that 4D / Lower Astral being (read: Ghost) can penetrate any wall or solid object in 3rd density.
It's the 'astral world' which is similar to physical world, but there's always something that a little bit 'off'.

But the 'variety' of experience in 4D / Lower Astral is 'richer' than in 3rd density.
It's similitude will be playing 2D games like "Street Fighter" in comparison to playing 3D games like "Grand Theft Auto".
Instead of only moving left-right up-down in X,Y axis there's an additional 'dimension' / depth on how you can move the Z axis.

Thus one can say that 4D / Lower Astral is 'denser' in term of experience to offer.

Going 'higher' (in frequency) than the lower astral realm things will start to get weirder, more 'abstract'. Anything you thought of will instantly appear.. you don't like it then poof it gone.. another weird example is sensing things from multiple perspective at once and / or seeing your own self from 3rd party perspective or having total vision of your entire surrounding. Teleporting is the way to move around, just 'swoof' instantly the scenery change. Actually it's difficult to say 'move', as actually it's the scenery that instantly change.

I honestly don't know the border / limit where 4D ends and 5D begins... or perhaps all of it is defined as 4D.

[zedro]

The problem here is you have to define what 'density' means in the chosen context. Obviously using the dimensions of mass over volume is not useful in this respect. So what are we defining? Information? Consciencnous? Experience?

It's like when people talk about dimensions, like they are actual predefined elements, but really they are just arbitrary variable sets that we choose to define a given contextual arrangement. Since we live in a 'material' context, we generically choose x,y,z as positional dimensional references, and time as a 4th dimension, but in the context of a holographic illusionary universe, you may choose others like frequency and amplitude and polarity.

So to answer what is denser, well it depends on what exactly what elements you are trying to compare.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

The problem here is you have to define what 'density' means in the chosen context. Obviously using the dimensions of mass over volume is not useful in this respect. So what are we defining? Information? Consciencnous? Experience?

That's exactly the problem. The word density is used alone, instead of making clear what kind of "density of ..." is meant.

Until it is made more clear what is meant, there are various things that cannot be answered in any conclusive way. The really big problem is that the D scale (I'll call it that) cannot be compared to anything else, to any other scale, with clarity. But this much is clear: It's an increasing scale of something. And for example, there may also be a corresponding decreasing scale of something else, which decreases when the D number increases, but what's that? You then have two unknowns, and you can't pin down what the second is without first doing it for the first.

On that note, it's exactly the same thing with "the light" vs. its absence, and also "lighter" vs. "heavier", etc., in many possible meanings in many spiritual usages. Usually, things without any definition are explained using things without any definition. I'm often in two minds about whether there's any point to any of this language or whether it's all meaningless rubbish.


While I criticize the Cassiopaean material in various contexts, on this topic I actually think it is an advance in clarity.

In the Cassiopaean cosmology, density refers to density of consciousness, which is inverse to density of materiality. Materiality is the result when consciousness "sleeps", in a particular sense. When consciousness is fully awaken, it is also fully undivided, and 7D is reached.

But what would provide a more vs. less dense "illusion" or experience, as Ra sometimes talks about? Less consciousness, i.e. a lower density of consciousness, on the one hand veils more, and makes more of the cosmos a matter of the external environment to which the being is subjected - but on the other hand it also limits the qualities of experience.

3D is described as particularly intense in how an individual being experiences things. Maybe above 3D, raw intensity of experience lessens, while more information instead becomes reflected in the experience, a higher information density then represented in the awareness, which translates into a qualitatively greater illusion. That could be how 4D provides a denser illusion, as Ra claimed.

[Raukura Waihaha]

I would've thought that for us to embody more light, the body would be more dense to handle more intense vibration?
I think of it like spirits passing through walls.
If they were less dense than the wall, it would be like blowing smoke at it. They're more dense so the wall is easy for them to move through.

Maybe I'm missing something...I'm not a physics major.

[jafar]

Well if 4th density is defined as "Astral World"...
As such 4th density body is defined as "Astral Body".. or "Astral Presence".

Then tadaaa..... you all already have it all along!
Although some of the human might not be aware of it.
No need to wait for some alien to do some things or event in the future like harvest or things like that.
By the way I also don't understand what this 'harvest' really is... are we some kind of a crop?

And even current physical body definitely can handle it.

All you need to do is to 'tune in' / 'focus' on your astral body and astral senses (a.k.a Chakras) and you can go out from your physical bodies exploring the 4th density world (astral world) interacting with 4th density beings, (spoiler alert: not all of them are nice and language is not a hindrance) and definitely you can also move through wall like spirit or ghost do.
I think it was Sadhguru who once said; you are a ghost inside a human body.

About the how, there are many ways..
One of the way is being discussed on this thread about "How to see Aura".
https://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthre...#pid288256

[Infinite]

Well if 4th density is defined as "Astral World"...
As such 4th density body is defined as "Astral Body".. or "Astral Presence".

Then tadaaa..... you all already have it all along!
Although some of the human might not be aware of it.
No need to wait for some alien to do some things or event in the future like harvest or things like that.
By the way I also don't understand what this 'harvest' really is... are we some kind of a crop?

I see the fourth density as a kind of astral universe, but not the same as our astral plane. Just as the subtle bodies that we have seem to me analogous to the bodies that we will use at higher densities, but they are not exactly the same thing. The fourth density body would be a vehicle superior to the astral body of a third density entity. Therefore, both the microcosm and the macrocosm have the rays of all densities in potential.

In certain esoteric traditions it's said that for ascension it's necessary that man build a body called "solar astral body". I suppose that is the fourth density body. The term "solar" refers to the fact that the astral body that every 3D entity naturally has is classified as "lunar". It's an inferior body, which cannot be expressed in the superior astral plane.

About the Harvest, simply speaking is a metaphysical process in which an entity can goes from one density to another. Ra explains that it's about walking on steps of light until the entity stops at the frequency most comfortable for it. This frequency can also be of the third density or of the fourth (using the Harvest for 4D as an example).

This Harvest can occur in two ways: entities that reach the eighth level of the third density, which is the level of intelligent infinity, are able to harvest themselves, whether they are STO or STS entities. We can call this "self-harvesting". The second way is through a process that takes place at the end of a 25,000-year cycle. In this process, the gateway to intelligent infinity opens and entities that have a minimum fourth density vibration (51% STO or 95% STS) are able to go to fourth density. At least in terms of the third density, this need to reach the level of intelligent infinity seems to me due to the octave nature of the densities. To reach the eighth level of an octave is to reach the first level of the next. This process has been called "quantum leap".

[Asolsutsesvyl]

Often, I simply avoid saying anything when what others are happy with has nothing to do with a quest for clear structured knowledge, and trying to throw such a thing into the mix would only distract them from what they really find meaningful and are doing. (Edit: I'll leave that in, but it was written in response to thoughts about the whole thread and other things it reminded me of, before the last reply above ce-centered the discussion.)

The topic of traditional "planes" is another general area where clarity is often missing and conflicting labels are flung about. "Astral" spans a wide range of things under one heading, and typical uses group together into something that seems unclear on a closer look. "Lower astral" is an older term which has often been used for what later became called 4D STS. A counterargument to modern such usage I've seen is that people using the term "lower astral" simply didn't know of 4D and used "astral", which corresponds to something below 4D, for lack of later and better knowledge.

In relation to the D-densities, there's the old thread, "Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence", about trying to get a more definite mapping of sorts. Several conflicting answers are provided, including my own synthesis with the older Fourth Way mapping to the 7 cosmoses in that system here.

My simple three-way merge with the Fourth Way cosmology leaves many questions unanswered, though so far there's not been any further discussion which may lead to exploring that. Anyway, the big difference is that astral=3D in that mapping. Below the astral is the 2D physical constructs with etheric/bio-energy systems attached. Above the astral, mental=4D and causal=5D, which seems to be a match in terms of the "magical" nature of 5D in Ra's cosmology.

The Ra material does provide plenty that allows thinking further where traditional religious systems and dogmas fall apart into utter disbelief given a bit of thought. But it's like little islands of clarity, and some other systems provide other little islands of clarity, the bigger area of thought and meaning remaining mostly a sea of confused ambiguity mixed with trivialities to which enormous meaning is assigned. But the striving for a sober synthesis is not very popular -- in part because it's very difficult, in part because most are happy without it -- and those who produce more well-known attempts at synthesis often make the result anything but sober.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

To clarify after my previous post, I don't claim to have any complete big synthesis, and have only presented smaller fragments of somewhat larger fragments I've otherwise kept to myself. (I used the word "synthesis" in two ways in the previous post, referring to two distinctly different scales of bringing things together. The final paragraph survived the trimming away of my frustration with the common lack of, well, anything more than short-lived bursts of discussion which further the aim of anything more definite in quality, especially anything bigger.)

In certain esoteric traditions it's said that for ascension it's necessary that man build a body called "solar astral body". I suppose that is the fourth density body. The term "solar" refers to the fact that the astral body that every 3D entity naturally has is classified as "lunar". It's an inferior body, which cannot be expressed in the superior astral plane.

There's also Gurdjieff's rather different take. He claimed that many don't have a real astral body, and distinguished between the stuff of astral existence swirling around like a vague cloud around a person and a person having a real living astral being in its own right made of such "stuff". It's one of the most controversial aspects of Gurdjieff's teaching. (Edit: Also controversial is the way in which this is commonly related to 3D "beginners" vs. those who're working on the second half of 3D development. As in, pre-adamics vs. adamics, or "organic portals" vs. individually souled.)

A possible alternative angle is that a fully developed being of a type which marks completed 3D development usually precede moving on to then strive to develop something more solid and definite of the next type of existence, 4D, as a result of life and experience with that. (Edit: May not apply to wanderers.)

But I don't know enough about the lunar/solar "bodies" and whether or not they may map cleanly to the Fourth Way "no real body, hence aligned with the moon" vs. "something which has fully transcended the limits of physical life". More dangling questions are connected to that in relation to Ra's cosmology, too.

(Edit: The above is too sketchy in relation to Fourth Way concepts. The development of a mental body would be the main thing associated, in that framework, with developing 4D capabilities.)

This Harvest can occur in two ways: entities that reach the eighth level of the third density, which is the level of intelligent infinity, are able to harvest themselves, whether they are STO or STS entities. We can call this "self-harvesting".

Maybe that's the same as simply being conscious and able enough to know what to do next or where else to go in taking a step away from the old?

But how does growth of consciousness relate to the development of more fine subtle bodies? The Gurdjieffian answer would be that the qualities of consciousness depends on the quality of the instrument it uses, thus better subtle bodies enable a qualitatively better consciousness (in a way only faintly or not at all reflected at the level of waking physical life).

(Edit: A further part of Fourth Way theory concerns connections between subtle bodies, and the developing of a harmonious functioning as a whole. While details are presented in a different schematic framework, it seems to map to the pattern of working with lower rays and through them into activation of higher rays in Ra's presentation, repeating once per density and higher body.)

[flofrog]

That thread is so great, thank you Asolsutsesvyl..
Correspondence between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence

[jafar]

About the Harvest, simply speaking is a metaphysical process in which an entity goes from one density to another. Ra explains that it's about walking on steps of light until the entity stops at the frequency most comfortable for it. This frequency can also be of the third density or of the fourth (using the Harvest for 4D as an example).

This view of seeing things as 'frequency' resonate with me and my observation.
It's the 'range of frequency' where the individualized consciousness decided to put it focus on, at that period of time.

Similitude will be tuning to 104.1 Mhz on the radio to focus on certain radio station which broadcasting at that range.

But... the individualized consciousness actually already have the capability (or "bodies as symbolized presence at that specific frequency which contain such definition") to tune in at any range of frequencies. Just like the radio device.

It might be 'imprecise' to map the "Lower Astral Realm" to only 4D STS, as the beings in that realm is a mixture of many polarities. I prefer to label it as 'buffer frequency range', where things still look similar to the conscious world as we know it, but something might be a little bit off and by tuning to that range of frequency one will uncover many new type of beings and objects which cannot be 'normally sensed' on conscious world. Such beings is 'less dense' in terms of physical solidness compared to wall or door.

They do however share the same 'ethereal plane' / 'dimension of space and time' with the 'physical world'. Although I might be mistaken it could also be 'different plane' but with high degree of similarity. But things like experiencing multiple timelines in parallel is definitely not 'available' as 'feature' in the lower astral realm. You can still refer to a physical world place or object that you know in the 'physical' world to also exist in the 'lower astral realm', your home, your office, your school, Paris, Moscow, Mars whatever.. it looks similar but with pieces of differences here and there.

Self body appearance wise, based on my experience, if one decide to look at what his/her body will look like, depending on the tuned-in frequency (which can also be dynamic) it ranging from either 'blinking' / 'shifting' appearance of actual physical body and white glowing light. The 'white glowing light' is similar to what people call as "Aura", and with more 'fine tuning' on the 'focusing frequency' we can also start to see the 'dynamic mixture of color' within this glowing white light.

This Auric Body seems to be self generating, I had an experience where part of it (my fingers) were 'consumed' or 'sucked' or 'biten' by another entities. (It's hard to describe in words it's kind of mixture between those words. I have described that story in other thread). But it doesn't hurt, it feel 'ticklish' as if it's a kind of signal that 'hey some entities is biting you!' and ZAP the fingers goes back to it's full length again.

The Auric body doesn't need any air as well, I don't recall the need of breathing. But yes the 'awareness' is different, I can feel that I don't have some part of my physical brain I mean the logical capability of thinking. Some people explain this that on 'such frequency' the one that is doing the thinking is the 'unconscious mind' and I tend to concur with that explanation.

An individualized consciousness can actually shifting frequencies as it wishes, such capability already exist even now with everyone. Just like the radio, it can go up down, one just need to 'learn' how to dial the radio within their own self.

Tuning higher in frequency range, to different 'radio stations', 'body' seems to be less and less relevant.
You just don't care how the 'body' looks like, and it seems everyone have the capability to project any kind of body that he / she wish for anyway thus rendering it irrelevant.

I never saw a 'body manifestation' of my higher self in the 'lower astral realm'.
Such can happened only in 'higher frequency radio station' where I can 'interact directly with him/her'. He/She never use the same body more than once, it's always different every time, male / female, at any range of age and at any racial appearance (Asian, African, Caucasian, whatever, you named it he/she has it). But I knew it's the same 'person' through the 'frequency signature' (this one is hard to describe), his/her familiarity with me and his/her 'character'. I somehow understand this as either 'the appearance doesn't matter' or 'he/she is showcasing me many of his/her past avatars / identities, one at a time'.

On the last occurence he appeared with 'overweight blond haired caucasian man in his 50s'.
"Nice belly" i sarcastically remarked, he replied with "Thanks, this is what happened when you're too lazy to exercise or even move around, but you have seen me with a 6 pack too right?". Yes on other occurrences he appeared with figure of muscular asian man and gorgeous abs..

The relationship that I had with him / her is best described as 'close friend', we joked around and our taste of humor is a perfect match, none of us see each others as 'higher' or 'lower' as in hierarchy.

So is 'higher self' in 6D? Apparently I don't know and actually it doesn't matter what kind of labelling that we put to that certain range of frequency.

What important is the realization that you all already 4d, 6d, 7d, 8d, 9d or whatever d.
You just need to learn how to 'dial that frequency inside you' in order to experience it.
And you can do it now, no need to wait for some 'harvest' or other 'future event'.

[Infinite]

But I don't know enough about the lunar/solar "bodies" and whether or not they may map cleanly to the Fourth Way "no real body, hence aligned with the moon" vs. "something which has fully transcended the limits of physical life".

One of the sources that speak of this solar astral body is the Gnostic movement founded by Samael Aun Weor. Interestingly, he relied heavily on Gurdjieff's Fourth Way.

Maybe that's the same as simply being conscious and able enough to know what to do next or where else to go in taking a step away from the old?

Yes, it is another way of stating what I said.

But how does growth of consciousness relate to the development of more fine subtle bodies? The Gurdjieffian answer would be that the qualities of consciousness depends on the quality of the instrument it uses, thus better subtle bodies enable a qualitatively better consciousness (in a way only faintly or not at all reflected at the level of waking physical life).

I haven't delved into Gurdjieff's information yet, but it seems to make sense. Thanks.