Random thoughts on immigration, STO purity, and positive/negative separation

[Ray711]

I think we can all agree that a completely pure STO entity would be of the mentality of complete open boarders for everyone (not just as related to country, but in regards to the entity's own house as well). There are a lot of implications for that here in 3rd density, and lots of arguments to make on both sides of the discussion as to the viability of this. However, I want to put this topic in relation to the notion that the two separate paths (STS and STO) in higher densities are just that; separate. The Confederation has gone on record saying that the two polarities "don't work well together". The implications of this in regard to the subject of immigration are big, if not downright hypocritical, because a basic motivation in the desire for strict immigration control (aside from downright xenophobic views) is the desire to keep potential individuals of an STS-like mentality away from that which one perceives as belonging to the self (of course, this viewpoint can be questioned on the grounds that one's own country also has STS individuals).

Still, Creation itself seems to be built on concepts of, shall we say, strict immigration control. The well of 4th density positive can't be poisoned with the negativity of those not sufficiently polarized STO, or so seems to be the idea.

Perhaps the important aspect of it is that polarity is relatively transient, and definitely mutable. Someone may not be "good enough" for 4th density positive at one particular point in time, but with enough time and work, anyone and everyone can potentially get there, if they so wish. This is in direct contrast with some far-right views of completely closing access into one's country to all people of any given race, nationality or religion.

On the topic of reaching absolute purity in STO, this following quote from Ra is relevant:

25.6 ▶ Questioner: Could you amplify the meaning of what you said by “failure to accept that which is given?”

Ra: I am Ra. At the level of time/space at which this takes place in the form of what you may call thought-war, the most accepting and loving energy would be to so love those who wished to manipulate that those entities were surrounded, engulfed, and transformed by positive energies.

This, however, being a battle of equals, the Confederation is aware that it cannot, on equal footing, allow itself to be manipulated in order to remain purely positive, for then though pure it would not be of any consequence, having been placed by the so-called powers of darkness under the heel, as you may say.

It is thus that those who deal with this thought-war must be defensive rather than accepting in order to preserve their usefulness in service to others. Thusly, they cannot accept fully what the Orion Confederation wishes to give, that being enslavement. Thusly, some polarity is lost due to this friction and both sides, if you will, must then regroup.

This is worrisome to me, because it implies that simply being loving is not enough to deter negativity, which is precisely the very mindset of the many people here in 3d who scoff at the notion that unconditional love will save the world. Perhaps it's different because 3d is more of an illusion, and the stakes are higher in the battle described by Ra. I'm unsure as to what to think about this, but I think it'd be interesting to open that debate.

[Infinite Unity]

Two different approaches at using the same equal energy. I am sorry but sto is not greater than sts, and vice-versa. You dont polarize sto in the hopes of being more powerful, but from compassion of service.

Densities above this one still involve learning/growth. This learning/growth is induced by lessons. One of these myriad lessons is this thought war.

It does not matter which polarity you are, every entity is an apart of the all. The polarities can be summarized as general pathways of experience.

[Ray711]

Two different approaches at using the same equal energy. I am sorry but sto is not greater than sts, and vice-versa. You dont polarize sto in the hopes of being more powerful, but from compassion of service.

Densities above this one still involve learning/growth. This learning/growth is induced by lessons. One of these myriad lessons is this thought war.

It does not matter which polarity you are, every entity is an apart of the all. The polarities can be summarized as general pathways of experience.

I think there's a point that can be made about STO being of greater importance, given that one can also make the point that STS exists solely to act as catalyst so that entities choose STO, and to make that choice all that much more meaningful (STS didn't even exist before the veil). However, I agree that STS is a valid choice, and at some level, equal to STO.

Not to become more powerful, but I think the desire to seek the Creator is arguably the greatest motivation every entity has, whether consciously or subconsciously. As such, one seeks love (or 4d), in great part, for the self's sake. I don't think there's anything bad about that, though. If one seeks love, then compassion and kindness become second nature, so both the self and others are benefited.

It's true that 4th density positive lessons involve taming the desire to fight 4th density negatives, but Ra makes it clear that the Confederation has no choice but to ask the early 4d positive social memory complexes of bellicose nature to engage in the battle, otherwise the entirety of the Confederation would be "of no consequence".

[kristina]

I think we can all agree that a completely pure STO entity would be of the mentality of complete open boarders for everyone (not just as related to country, but in regards to the entity's own house as well). There are a lot of implications for that here in 3rd density, and lots of arguments to make on both sides of the discussion as to the viability of this. However, I want to put this topic in relation to the notion that the two separate paths (STS and STO) in higher densities are just that; separate. The Confederation has gone on record saying that the two polarities "don't work well together". The implications of this in regard to the subject of immigration are big, if not downright hypocritical, because a basic motivation in the desire for strict immigration control (aside from downright xenophobic views) is the desire to keep potential individuals of an STS-like mentality away from that which one perceives as belonging to the self (of course, this viewpoint can be questioned on the grounds that one's own country also has STS individuals).

Still, Creation itself seems to be built on concepts of, shall we say, strict immigration control. The well of 4th density positive can't be poisoned with the negativity of those not sufficiently polarized STO, or so seems to be the idea.

Perhaps the important aspect of it is that polarity is relatively transient, and definitely mutable. Someone may not be "good enough" for 4th density positive at one particular point in time, but with enough time and work, anyone and everyone can potentially get there, if they so wish. This is in direct contrast with some far-right views of completely closing access into one's country to all people of any given race, nationality or religion.

On the topic of reaching absolute purity in STO, this following quote from Ra is relevant:

25.6 ▶ Questioner: Could you amplify the meaning of what you said by “failure to accept that which is given?”

Ra: I am Ra. At the level of time/space at which this takes place in the form of what you may call thought-war, the most accepting and loving energy would be to so love those who wished to manipulate that those entities were surrounded, engulfed, and transformed by positive energies.

This, however, being a battle of equals, the Confederation is aware that it cannot, on equal footing, allow itself to be manipulated in order to remain purely positive, for then though pure it would not be of any consequence, having been placed by the so-called powers of darkness under the heel, as you may say.

It is thus that those who deal with this thought-war must be defensive rather than accepting in order to preserve their usefulness in service to others. Thusly, they cannot accept fully what the Orion Confederation wishes to give, that being enslavement. Thusly, some polarity is lost due to this friction and both sides, if you will, must then regroup.

This is worrisome to me, because it implies that simply being loving is not enough to deter negativity, which is precisely the very mindset of the many people here in 3d who scoff at the notion that unconditional love will save the world. Perhaps it's different because 3d is more of an illusion, and the stakes are higher in the battle described by Ra. I'm unsure as to what to think about this, but I think it'd be interesting to open that debate.

I think what is being said here is that The Confederation is rejecting enslavement by sending love as a defensive mechanism in order to reject the notion of enslavement by the Orion Cusaders. As if to say, to protect oneself from becoming subjected to being taken over by another as you may do a protective spell by sending it out so that no harm can be done to you. You would do the defensive spell to preserve your free will. By doing this, some polarity may be lost. It is as it is.
Negativity, if you will, has it's own free will and may use it as it wishes.

[Infinite]

It's not viable use the way of acting of higher densities entities as example for 3D entities. The context you showed is about battles between entities of an equal power. It has nothing to do with immigration questions.

[kristina]

Two different approaches at using the same equal energy. I am sorry but sto is not greater than sts, and vice-versa. You dont polarize sto in the hopes of being more powerful, but from compassion of service.

Densities above this one still involve learning/growth. This learning/growth is induced by lessons. One of these myriad lessons is this thought war.

It does not matter which polarity you are, every entity is an apart of the all. The polarities can be summarized as general pathways of experience.

I think there's a point that can be made about STO being of greater importance, given that one can also make the point that STS exists solely to act as catalyst so that entities choose STO, and to make that choice all that much more meaningful (STS didn't even exist before the veil). However, I agree that STS is a valid choice, and at some level, equal to STO.

Not to become more powerful, but I think the desire to seek the Creator is arguably the greatest motivation every entity has, whether consciously or subconsciously. As such, one seeks love (or 4d), in great part, for the self's sake. I don't think there's anything bad about that, though. If one seeks love, then compassion and kindness become second nature, so both the self and others are benefited.

It's true that 4th density positive lessons involve taming the desire to fight 4th density negatives, but Ra makes it clear that the Confederation has no choice but to ask the early 4d positive social memory complexes of bellicose nature to engage in the battle, otherwise the entirety of the Confederation would be "of no consequence".

4th density positive lessons do not include taming. They include love, understanding, forgiveness and acceptance

[Ray711]

I think what is being said here is that The Confederation is rejecting enslavement by sending love as a defensive mechanism in order to reject the notion of enslavement by the Orion Cusaders. As if to say, to protect oneself from becoming subjected to being taken over by another as you may do a protective spell by sending it out so that no harm can be done to you. You would do the defensive spell to preserve your free will. By doing this, some polarity may be lost. It is as it is.
Negativity, if you will, has it's own free will and may use it as it wishes.

Maybe. The notion of the mere act of protecting oneself being somewhat depolarizing is certainly an interesting one. However, it is my belief based on other bits and pieces (from the Q'uo messages as well) that there is indeed a sort of literal battle between 4d entities. I'm thinking right now of Q'uo mentioning that the early 4d positive entity still carries a lot of the bias of 3d, referring to the bellicose nature and the desire to protect the loved ones at any cost.

It's not viable use the way of acting of higher densities entities as example for 3D entities. The context you showed is about battles between entities of an equal power. It has nothing to do with immigration questions.

Not necessarily immigration. But, higher density and all, the description by Ra of this battle is very relatable to 3d issues. Is there sometimes a need or a justification (even for STO entities) to fight? To control? To resist? To put limitations into the relationships with other-selves? Is complete and absolute purity desirable? What dangers does it entail?

4th density positive lessons do not include taming. They include love, understanding, forgiveness and acceptance

Yes. In learning those things, the need to tame the desire to fight other selves (even to protect those closest to the self) is then realized. 4d positive doesn't begin with absolute purity in its STO polarity, and there is still a distinction between the loved ones and "the others". It is when the lessons of universal and unconditional love advance when the 4d entity realizes that the STS entity is as much valuable an entity as the family, the friends, the close ones; and that to hurt even the STS entity is to hurt the all.

[ScottK]

This is worrisome to me, because it implies that simply being loving is not enough to deter negativity, which is precisely the very mindset of the many people here in 3d who scoff at the notion that unconditional love will save the world. Perhaps it's different because 3d is more of an illusion, and the stakes are higher in the battle described by Ra. I'm unsure as to what to think about this, but I think it'd be interesting to open that debate.

Your line of reasoning is quite correct in my view. This is really balancing love and wisdom.

It would be impossible to create a truly positive society while having folks enter that society who wish to destroy it. Pretty obvious to me.

An influx of negative folks would move the society towards being more controlled, since those who wish to live peacefully would demand greater enforcement and more control to maintain peace. That's the Orion Group's objective here.

[JJCarsonian]

Sorry if this is short I’m typing on my phone . In STO there is such a thing as balancing wisdom and love. I disagree that STO would automatically open their borders to all. Just like Ra recommended Carla not be a martyr, and STO with balanced love and wisdom would analyze the situation and choose the best outcome for most
People. You may open your house to a friend, but you are not going to open your house to everyone.

I think we can all agree that a completely pure STO entity would be of the mentality of complete open boarders for everyone (not just as related to country, but in regards to the entity's own house as well). There are a lot of implications for that here in 3rd density, and lots of arguments to make on both sides of the discussion as to the viability of this. However, I want to put this topic in relation to the notion that the two separate paths (STS and STO) in higher densities are just that; separate. The Confederation has gone on record saying that the two polarities "don't work well together". The implications of this in regard to the subject of immigration are big, if not downright hypocritical, because a basic motivation in the desire for strict immigration control (aside from downright xenophobic views) is the desire to keep potential individuals of an STS-like mentality away from that which one perceives as belonging to the self (of course, this viewpoint can be questioned on the grounds that one's own country also has STS individuals).

Still, Creation itself seems to be built on concepts of, shall we say, strict immigration control. The well of 4th density positive can't be poisoned with the negativity of those not sufficiently polarized STO, or so seems to be the idea.

Perhaps the important aspect of it is that polarity is relatively transient, and definitely mutable. Someone may not be "good enough" for 4th density positive at one particular point in time, but with enough time and work, anyone and everyone can potentially get there, if they so wish. This is in direct contrast with some far-right views of completely closing access into one's country to all people of any given race, nationality or religion.

On the topic of reaching absolute purity in STO, this following quote from Ra is relevant:

25.6 ▶ Questioner: Could you amplify the meaning of what you said by “failure to accept that which is given?”

Ra: I am Ra. At the level of time/space at which this takes place in the form of what you may call thought-war, the most accepting and loving energy would be to so love those who wished to manipulate that those entities were surrounded, engulfed, and transformed by positive energies.

This, however, being a battle of equals, the Confederation is aware that it cannot, on equal footing, allow itself to be manipulated in order to remain purely positive, for then though pure it would not be of any consequence, having been placed by the so-called powers of darkness under the heel, as you may say.

It is thus that those who deal with this thought-war must be defensive rather than accepting in order to preserve their usefulness in service to others. Thusly, they cannot accept fully what the Orion Confederation wishes to give, that being enslavement. Thusly, some polarity is lost due to this friction and both sides, if you will, must then regroup.

This is worrisome to me, because it implies that simply being loving is not enough to deter negativity, which is precisely the very mindset of the many people here in 3d who scoff at the notion that unconditional love will save the world. Perhaps it's different because 3d is more of an illusion, and the stakes are higher in the battle described by Ra. I'm unsure as to what to think about this, but I think it'd be interesting to open that debate.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Like Infinite, I have issues relating the natural laws of how higher densities function with the topic of third density immigration. They're completely different topics in my mind. And there are key facets to these issues that I think are unaddressed by your argument.

However, I want to put this topic in relation to the notion that the two separate paths (STS and STO) in higher densities are just that; separate. The Confederation has gone on record saying that the two polarities "don't work well together". The implications of this in regard to the subject of immigration are big, if not downright hypocritical, because a basic motivation in the desire for strict immigration control (aside from downright xenophobic views) is the desire to keep potential individuals of an STS-like mentality away from that which one perceives as belonging to the self (of course, this viewpoint can be questioned on the grounds that one's own country also has STS individuals).

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to when you say that they talk about the polarities not "working well together." I suppose that could be inferred by what is said about the separation of the polarities and how the "thought battle" plays out. But I take issue with the idea of immigration control being reduced to "the desire to keep potential individuals of an STS-like mentality away from that which one perceives as belonging to the self." Is the implication that the majority of immigrants are operating on an "STS-like mentality"? If it is the implication, then I think the issues with a statement like that are obvious.

And if that is not the implication, and we assume you are right - that the motivation for strict immigration control might be to protect the self, but that mentality completely ignores - then that still ignores the fact that this mentality is completely lacking in consideration of love, acceptance, and service for those who are genuinely seeking a better life and not of an "STS-like mentality." The biggest issue I see with the very idea that the common mentality of desiring strict immigration control can still be an STO mindset is that it completely ignores those who are actually in need. Among people who call for stricter immigration control, how many of those people equally call for better service for those genuinely seeking aid? What is placed as the higher priority - keeping out the "undesirables," or ensuring those in need are served the best of our ability?

I don't personally believe that these mentalities are mutually exclusive - a person could theoretically have a nuanced opinion on immigration that calls for better control and more resources for those in need. But far more often do I see proponents of strict immigration simply upset about the potential undesirables, willing to overlook those in need out of self-protection. That is not a positive attitude in my mind.

I'd also like to point out the difference between an "STS-like mentality" and a person who expresses harmful behaviors due to a lack of resources. There is a difference between an actual STS person and someone who has developed self-serving attitudes due to a culture or life shaped by lack of fundamental resources. I think about this Q&A:

42.3
Questioner: I will attempt to make an analogy. If an animal, shall I say a bull in a pen, attacks you because you have wandered into his pen, you get out of his way rapidly but you do not blame him. Or, you do not have much of an emotional response other than the fear response that he might damage you. However, if you encounter another self in his territory and he attacks you, your response may be more of an emotional nature creating physical bodily responses. Am I correct in assuming that when your response to the animal and to the other-self seeing both as the Creator and loving both and understanding their action in attacking you is the action of their free will then you have balanced yourself correctly in this area? Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is basically correct. However, the balanced entity will see in the seeming attack of an other-self the causes of this action which are, in most cases, of a more complex nature than the cause of the attack of the second-density bull as was your example. Thus this balanced entity would be open to many more opportunities for service to a third-density other-self.

There are so many factors that might go into human harmful behavior that have little to do with STS polarization. Experiencing such can be not just an opportunity to protect the self, but to serve the other-self as well.

And one further clarification - I believe that anyone who has had consistent contact with immigrants or anyone fleeing from another country in a desperate situation knows that love can prevail in a person despite circumstances. I just think we often fail to realize how our relatively privileged circumstances allow us to contemplate things like love, service, and our attitude towards others. Not everyone has these opportunities. Circumstances don't dictate everything, but they do have an influence.

Still, Creation itself seems to be built on concepts of, shall we say, strict immigration control. The well of 4th density positive can't be poisoned with the negativity of those not sufficiently polarized STO, or so seems to be the idea.

This particular example is a natural function of the creation and how densities work. It's not controlled by an external force deciding what is best for the individuals. Ra is clear - an individual (with the aid of the higher self) determines the best environment for it to learn in. The reason that the "well of 4th density positive" isn't "poisoned" by those less polarized is because the individuals themselves determine for themselves that it is not appropriate for them to be there.

On the topic of reaching absolute purity in STO, this following quote from Ra is relevant:

25.6 ▶ Questioner: Could you amplify the meaning of what you said by “failure to accept that which is given?”

Ra: I am Ra. At the level of time/space at which this takes place in the form of what you may call thought-war, the most accepting and loving energy would be to so love those who wished to manipulate that those entities were surrounded, engulfed, and transformed by positive energies.

This, however, being a battle of equals, the Confederation is aware that it cannot, on equal footing, allow itself to be manipulated in order to remain purely positive, for then though pure it would not be of any consequence, having been placed by the so-called powers of darkness under the heel, as you may say.

It is thus that those who deal with this thought-war must be defensive rather than accepting in order to preserve their usefulness in service to others. Thusly, they cannot accept fully what the Orion Confederation wishes to give, that being enslavement. Thusly, some polarity is lost due to this friction and both sides, if you will, must then regroup.

This is worrisome to me, because it implies that simply being loving is not enough to deter negativity, which is precisely the very mindset of the many people here in 3d who scoff at the notion that unconditional love will save the world. Perhaps it's different because 3d is more of an illusion, and the stakes are higher in the battle described by Ra. I'm unsure as to what to think about this, but I think it'd be interesting to open that debate.

Again, this is describing a relationship between two very deliberately polarized forces. A "battle of equals." In my eyes, that is not at all the same as the issue of immigration. The service that a polarized STO entity might offer a polarized STS entity is much different than a service an STO entity might offer someone expressing harmful behavior yet not actually polarized STS. "To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this."

[Infinite Unity]

Two different approaches at using the same equal energy. I am sorry but sto is not greater than sts, and vice-versa. You dont polarize sto in the hopes of being more powerful, but from compassion of service.

Densities above this one still involve learning/growth. This learning/growth is induced by lessons. One of these myriad lessons is this thought war.

It does not matter which polarity you are, every entity is an apart of the all. The polarities can be summarized as general pathways of experience.

I think there's a point that can be made about STO being of greater importance, given that one can also make the point that STS exists solely to act as catalyst so that entities choose STO, and to make that choice all that much more meaningful (STS didn't even exist before the veil). However, I agree that STS is a valid choice, and at some level, equal to STO.

Not to become more powerful, but I think the desire to seek the Creator is arguably the greatest motivation every entity has, whether consciously or subconsciously. As such, one seeks love (or 4d), in great part, for the self's sake. I don't think there's anything bad about that, though. If one seeks love, then compassion and kindness become second nature, so both the self and others are benefited.

It's true that 4th density positive lessons involve taming the desire to fight 4th density negatives, but Ra makes it clear that the Confederation has no choice but to ask the early 4d positive social memory complexes of bellicose nature to engage in the battle, otherwise the entirety of the Confederation would be "of no consequence".

Sto and sts are equal due to them being concepts in which the Creator more fully understands/experiences/expresses itself. When The Law is One everything of hierarchial value collapses, and ideas/concepts, become relevant due to potential.  This potential is how much growth/reflection/expression/representation, can be drawn upon for experience of Creator knowing Creator. The pillar and thought that contains all others, and or has the greatest potential is Love/Unity.

sto and sts are sub branches, of many, on this tree of Love. Love/Unity is the core concept or causation/mother of all things within this entire Octave structure. Everything possible, everything done, everything learned. Can trace its roots back to this Originator/Original Thought. That with out these two primal components, nothing experienced/currently experienced/ and will be experienced, under/with these set of concepts, would exist.

One of the first things learned under these set of concepts, is that it is meaningless without the concept being balanced by its opposite. Which can be culminated in the birth of Faith.

[Ray711]

It would be impossible to create a truly positive society while having folks enter that society who wish to destroy it. Pretty obvious to me.

Agreed. The problem is that this very line of thinking that we're having, though quite accurate, is what leads towards a reduction in compassion, compassion being the only thing that makes 3rd density advance towards 4th density. Abundant compassion with just the bare minimum amounts of wisdom is probably the perfect solution. But it sure is hard finding that point while here in 3d...

I was just reminded of this quote from Ra:

95.26 ▶ Questioner: Am I to understand, then, that there is no protection at all if the Experience of the Mind has become negative and the negative path is traveled? All random catalyst may affect the negatively polarized individual as a function of the statistical nature of the random catalyst. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. You may note some of those of your peoples which, at this space/time nexus, seek places of survival. This is due to the lack of protection when service to self is invoked.

This is... pretty freaking damning. Most of us probably raised an eyebrow when we first read this. It even makes me wonder if the channeling contact was infiltrated by Orion at this point.

There's also this, though:

The one called Moishe was open to impression and received the Law of One in its most simple form. However, the information became negatively oriented due to his people’s pressure to do specific physical things in the third-density planes. This left the entity open for the type of information and philosophy of a self-service nature.

If these extracts are really from Ra and the contact with them was never compromised, it would seem that a red ray focus, the fear of death and a lack of faith would not only polarize negatively, but potentially bring to the self all sorts of tragedy and misfortune. I... don't really know what to make of this. The implications are not something that I like. I wonder what opinions you folks have about that.

Like Infinite, I have issues relating the natural laws of how higher densities function with the topic of third density immigration.

An analogy can be made on the grounds that STS and STO 4th density societies are, for all intents and purposes, cultures of different and opposing values that, hypothetically speaking, could perfectly exist right here on Earth. STO believes in universal compassion, freedom and on the inherent value of any and all individuals. STS believes in control, "might makes right", scoffs at compassion and thinks that an individual is only as valuable as his or her place in the hierarchy. If these two societies existed right here on Earth, and we faced the immigration dilemma, what would we do about it? This is mostly a philosophical question. I'm not trying to draw parallelisms between STO or STS societies and actual nations of Earth.

Is the implication that the majority of immigrants are operating on an "STS-like mentality"?

In the opinion of the most hardcore proponents of strict immigration laws (and apparently in Ra's!), yes. If you are asking about my personal perspective, then no.

then that still ignores the fact that this mentality is completely lacking in consideration of love, acceptance, and service for those who are genuinely seeking a better life

There's been some misunderstanding. I was writing under the idea that the perspective of protecting one's family, friends or nation by any means necessary and at the expense of all other groups is, itself, STS. My argument was that if this is STS (and it is, as we both implied), wouldn't any and all 4th density positive societies be, paradoxically, rather negative themselves, if they never allowed any STS entity inside their boarders? Again, for argument's sake, let's say that we're talking about non-existent hypothetical nations on Earth and not the higher densities (where the light/vibratory incompatibilities are quite a big metaphysical cop out when it comes to this dilemma).

But far more often do I see proponents of strict immigration simply upset about the potential undesirables

Agreed. I don't want to judge too much, however. I believe it's important to know what drove these people to have such views/priorities to begin with.

There is a difference between an actual STS person and someone who has developed self-serving attitudes due to a culture or life shaped by lack of fundamental resources.

I'm of the opinion that the huge majority of STS entities start down that path due to a context of trauma, tragedy or emotional pain; that they're people who adopted the perspective that love is literally unattainable or an illusion, and so, being denied the very thing that every soul yearns for, they saw no option but to embrace a substitute: Power over others. I know it's very dark subject matter, but if you haven't, I would recommend taking a look at some of the writings/videos of perpetrators of mass shootings. Elliot Rodger comes to mind right now. He was in extreme emotional pain because of a great desire to find a love he thought he couldn't get. He made The Choice in his own way, and under a situation of lack of love, instead of embracing love for all, he embraced power over others (as Ra says, putting other-selves to death being the ultimate power over others). I was thinking of opening a thread about this very subject, as I think it's of great interest, and quite central to TLOO philosophy.

love can prevail in a person despite circumstances

Indeed so. In my estimation, the illusion of 3rd density is constructed with tragedy as an essential and inevitable component of it. Tragedy is what drives entities towards the making of The Choice. It tests whether we believe in love, TRULY believe in love (that is to say, making the conscious decision of being loving even when one is not being given love), or falling into the mindset that the pain that one is suffering is so great and so unacceptable that, having seen love as unattainable, the alternative is embraced.

[Cyclops]

There was a topic on refugees a while back
https://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthre...?tid=12199

the session discussed in the topic had the confederation touch on the topic of refugees/immigration in various different angles, compassion, discernment, anti-manipulation, fear and judgement for anyone interested.
https://llresearch.org/transcripts/issue..._1121.aspx

[flofrog]

thank you Cyclops and that second link was really interesting. in the end what would the heart do..

[ScottK]

If these extracts are really from Ra and the contact with them was never compromised, it would seem that a red ray focus, the fear of death and a lack of faith would not only polarize negatively, but potentially bring to the self all sorts of tragedy and misfortune. I... don't really know what to make of this. The implications are not something that I like. I wonder what opinions you folks have about that.

What you are talking about in this thread has nothing to do with fear of death or lack of faith. It's a creation related process. You cannot create something positive while willfully introducing something that will hinder the process of creating something positive. Some just need to be excluded. That doesn't mean you don't have compassion for them - it just means you don't want them involved until their free will allows them to be ready.

Does one allow serial pedophiles into elementary schools?

[Dtris]

When Don asked Ra about accepting the service of their 5th density STS friend, he said accepting that friends service would be a disservice to themselves, since it would end the contact. True STS beings desire enslavement, which as Ra said makes polarizing STO basically impossible. If you allowed STS beings into your STO territory, they would then go about attempting to enslave the STO beings, convert them to STS, and gain polarity in doing so. If a country allows migrants who do not share the same basic values in, they will attempt to spread their own values and undermine that country to supplant its culture with their own. Allowing this would be a disservice to your own country. Countries which share basic values would be able to have open borders without issue. The US used to have open borders with Canada for many years with no negative effect due to this.

[flofrog]

I might be wrong but there seems to be here an idea that what is immigration today would bring huge STS influence in the countries where this immigration takes place.

I think we have to go back to the place where each individual is an individual, a unique one. Some choose STS, some choose STO, some are neutral and do not use incarantion to polarize, yet.

Now at the governing head of each country, there is a group which may consider that there is a humanitarian issue at hands, or not, which will mean that decisions and laws will help incoming immigrants, or partially or not.

But the view that there is here in 3D a situation of immigration where you cannot let 'pollution' of STS on STO seems to me really strange. That there is fear at wide influx of immigration, yes of course, if only as a matter of response in help and structures. That there is fear of consequences of not adequate response, for sure. Isn't there a catalyst in realizing that fomenting and pushing wars will add to unbalance by creating fear and desperate attempts to emigrate.

3D on Earth is a specific experiment where there has been a mixture of both, there is no 'purity' in itself and if you look deeply, in the end there is only unique, personal reaction to situations where are allowed STO, STS choices or no choice, yet.

just my humble opinion here.

[kristina]

I think what is being said here is that The Confederation is rejecting enslavement by sending love as a defensive mechanism in order to reject the notion of enslavement by the Orion Cusaders. As if to say, to protect oneself from becoming subjected to being taken over by another as you may do a protective spell by sending it out so that no harm can be done to you. You would do the defensive spell to preserve your free will. By doing this, some polarity may be lost. It is as it is.
Negativity, if you will, has it's own free will and may use it as it wishes.

Maybe. The notion of the mere act of protecting oneself being somewhat depolarizing is certainly an interesting one. However, it is my belief based on other bits and pieces (from the Q'uo messages as well) that there is indeed a sort of literal battle between 4d entities. I'm thinking right now of Q'uo mentioning that the early 4d positive entity still carries a lot of the bias of 3d, referring to the bellicose nature and the desire to protect the loved ones at any cost.

It's not viable use the way of acting of higher densities entities as example for 3D entities. The context you showed is about battles between entities of an equal power. It has nothing to do with immigration questions.

Not necessarily immigration. But, higher density and all, the description by Ra of this battle is very relatable to 3d issues. Is there sometimes a need or a justification (even for STO entities) to fight? To control? To resist? To put limitations into the relationships with other-selves? Is complete and absolute purity desirable? What dangers does it entail?

4th density positive lessons do not include taming. They include love, understanding, forgiveness and acceptance

Yes. In learning those things, the need to tame the desire to fight other selves (even to protect those closest to the self) is then realized. 4d positive doesn't begin with absolute purity in its STO polarity, and there is still a distinction between the loved ones and "the others". It is when the lessons of universal and unconditional love advance when the 4d entity realizes that the STS entity is as much valuable an entity as the family, the friends, the close ones; and that to hurt even the STS entity is to hurt the all.

You say tame, I say being conscious. Being a conscious entity there a many things to be considered.
I don't understand what you mean when you say 4th density positive doesn't begin with absolute purity.
I also don't understand when you say the 4th density entity realizes that the STS entity is as much value.....are you saying we won't realize that until 4th density? If so, many of us are already on board with that while in 3rd density.
I may not desire to hurt you but of you attack me with a knife I may hit you with a lamp to protect myself so that I can continue my journey but that doesn't mean I don't love you and may have to spend the rest of this incarnation balancing my actions. That would not be an STS scenario.
I am unclear of what you consider STS and STO, polarization, the densities, and consciousness. It seems to me that you are possibly presenting arguments and debates rather than seeking answers. Or perhaps I am reading this incorrectly and that would be great if I were.

[Ray711]

Thanks Cyclops for those links, I'll check them out.

What you are talking about in this thread has nothing to do with fear of death or lack of faith. It's a creation related process. You cannot create something positive while willfully introducing something that will hinder the process of creating something positive.

Maybe ideas have been somewhat mixed. The above quotes make it very clear that, in Ra's estimation, if someone is "seeking a place of survival", that is because said individual is experiencing catalyst of a random nature brought about because of STS being invoked (I am quite opposed to this idea on principle, but that is what the material says). In that regard, first invoking STO, and then using faith in order to stop caring about whether you live or die (instead, putting that energy into loving others) would stop that random catalyst. If Ra is correct, that is.

To answer directly to what you say, even though a more grounded 3d perspective makes me agree with you, there's the example of Jesus. Jesus told his followers to put down the swords, and accepted being put to death. Would the use of wisdom and the idea that Jesus was a kinder and more compassionate person than anyone else on Earth justify hurting or even killing other-selves in order to save Jesus? Would Jesus have been as influential in our history if he had lived many more years, without his sacrifice?

But the view that there is here in 3D a situation of immigration where you cannot let 'pollution' of STS on STO seems to me really strange.

Just to clarify, I consider a capitalist system to lean strongly towards STS.

I don't understand what you mean when you say 4th density positive doesn't begin with absolute purity.

I believe it's a conclusion that can be reached based on quotes here and there. For example, Ra said that once a 4th density positive society is close to being 5th density harvestable, the STO polarity has reached a level close to 98%. There's also this quote from Q'uo:

The one known as Billy Meier is anomalous in that this entity was dealing with unaffiliated entities of fourth-density level; that is, they were not affiliated with the Confederation of Planets in the Service of the Infinite Creator. They, and the one known as Billy, were able to offer some positively-oriented and inspirational material thanks to the catalysis of the one known as Billy.

At the same time, these entities were not entirely positive. That is to say, though of fourth-density level, they had not come through the development into a planetary social memory complex and consequently their actions were, in many ways, flawed according to that rule of non-infringement on free will that is so dear to our hearts.

Without more information, it's hard to tell what negative behavior are 4th density STO entities capable of, exactly. We have information on the impossibility to cause disharmony, but perhaps that applies strictly to the interactions between the members of that particular 4d society. In any case, I don't think we can rule out that an early 4d STO society may be only 51% STO polarized. That's still quite a bit of STS polarity to deal with.

I also don't understand when you say the 4th density entity realizes that the STS entity is as much value.....are you saying we won't realize that until 4th density? If so, many of us are already on board with that while in 3rd density.

True, but what if people who accept loving "monsters" do so because they/we are wanderers who, at the subconscious level, are remembering the values of unconditional love from past lifes? This idea of loving even the "monsters" is not very common here on Earth at all, which gives some weight to the possibility that most 3d natives, even if STO harvestable, prefer to hate the monsters, rather than love them. How many people on Earth are willing to have compassion for a mass shooter, a pedophile or a tyrant?

I may not desire to hurt you but of you attack me with a knife I may hit you with a lamp to protect myself so that I can continue my journey but that doesn't mean I don't love you and may have to spend the rest of this incarnation balancing my actions. That would not be an STS scenario.

Agreed.

It seems to me that you are possibly presenting arguments and debates rather than seeking answers. Or perhaps I am reading this incorrectly and that would be great if I were.

I'm confused by this. Yes, I was interested in great part in having a somewhat aimless philosophical debate (in that sense, the "random thoughts" in the topic was very deliberate). That doesn't mean I am opposed to distilling whatever love (and wisdom!) can be distilled from the ideas and concepts discussed, though.

[ScottK]

So, if you have a group of serial pedophiles who all want to go into an elementary school, do you let them?

[Infinite Unity]

To love other self, or self? The other people in your experience, is the one consciousness mysteriously sharing itself. So rules or notions that impend on multitudes are only sub rules or parameters to the truth of Oneness.


I'm not saying others do not matter. I am saying there is One consciouness using thoughts like programs, for our understanding, to causate parameters in which many consciousness seem to exist.

So what is allowable/possible isnt strictly about "everyone" but the One.

[kristina]

So, if you have a group of serial pedophiles who all want to go into an elementary school, do you let them?

No. You stop them from entering.

[kristina]

6.16 ▶ Questioner: What is the position of this planet with respect to progression of the cycle at this time?

Ra: I am Ra. This sphere is at this time in fourth-dimension vibration. Its material is quite confused due to the society memory complexes embedded in its consciousness. It has not made an easy transition to the vibrations which beckon. Therefore, it will be fetched with some inconvenience.

Fourth dimensional vibrations are activated now, this frequency is here and many are able to utilize this vibration to aid their journey. I am not speaking of the entities that choose not to utilize, only the entities that do.

.

14.17 ▶ Questioner: Then the harvest 25,000 years ago, the entities who could have been harvested to the fourth density remained here in service to this planetary population. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. Thus, there was no harvest, but there were harvestable entities who shall choose the manner of their entrance into fourth dimension.

And there are entities that have reached 4th density graduation but chose to remain in order to aid, to increase the master cycle harvest. There are people who already are working in consciousness 4th density lessons along with the remainder of their 3rd density lessons. Their are those of us that look at the STS as a valid path and honor their free will to choose their own way back to The Creator. We may be perplexed by the path but we understand completely that it is a valid path and one that should be honored as far as free will goes.


16.11 ▶ Questioner: Is there a harvest of entities oriented towards service to self like there is a harvest here of entities oriented towards service to others?

Ra: I am Ra. There is one harvest. Those able to enter fourth density through vibrational complex levels may choose the manner of their further seeking of the One Creator.

16.12 ▶ Questioner: Then as we enter the fourth density there will be a split, shall we say, and part of the individuals who go into the fourth density will go to planets or places where there is service to others and the other part will go into places where there is service to self.

Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

Upon leaving the 3rd density, there is a split, the negative polarized that are harvestable going to a 4th density planet for their learning and 4th density positive going another way.
So, there is a large amount of purity of what surrounds us within the 4th density.
We also will not have the veil of forgetting, we will remember for the first time in a very long time of who we are, truly are and we will remember all the journeys we had upon this sphere and others. We have to remember that there is no veil in the 4th density. And the 4th density positive will contain m/b/s that were harvestable and the m/b/s's that were not harvestable will go elsewhere to learn 3rd density lessons. There is purity. Catalyst is greatly reduced.


16.50 ▶ Questioner: Thank you. Is it possible for you to give a small description of the conditions [in] fourth density?

Ra: I am Ra. We ask you to consider as we speak that there are no words for positively describing fourth density. We can only explain what is not and approximate what is. Beyond fourth density our ability grows more limited still until we become without words.

That which fourth density is not: it is not of words, unless chosen. It is not of heavy chemical vehicles for body complex activities. It is not of disharmony within self. It is not of disharmony within peoples. It is not within limits of possibility to cause disharmony in any way.

Approximations of positive statements: it is a plane of a type of bipedal vehicle which is much denser and more full of life; it is a plane wherein one is aware of the thoughts of other-selves; it is a plane where one is aware of the vibrations of other-selves; it is a plane of compassion and understanding of the sorrows of third density; it is a plane striving towards wisdom or light; it is a plane wherein individual differences are pronounced although automatically harmonized by group consensus.

As quoted here, the 4th density is not of self disharmony or disharmony with other selves and I understand it to say that in 4th density those entities are striving toward the fifth density of wisdom/light. Though there may be difference on an individual bases it will be harmonized by the group harmony.

47.6 ▶ Questioner: Well, what I was actually asking was if 50% is required for graduation from third to fourth in the positive sense, 95% is required for graduation in the negative sense, does this have to more closely approach 100% in both cases for graduation from fourth to fifth? Does an entity have to be 99% polarized for negative and maybe 80% polarized for positive graduation from fourth to fifth?

Ra: I am Ra. We perceive the query now.

To give this in your terms is misleading for there are, shall we say, visual aids or training aids available in fourth density which automatically aid the entity in polarization while cutting down extremely upon the quick effect of catalyst. Thus the density above yours must take up more space/time.

I understand this to say that catalyst is greatly reduced in 4th density and since there is more mental activity (as in thought activity) there are mental exercises for the continuation of polarization. We continue to deepen our Choice through the densities (I'm speaking of STO).
In the 3rd density we are to make The Choice.

This quote goes further to say that in intention one must reach 98% within the 4th density:

The percentage of service to others of positively oriented entities will harmoniously approach 98% in intention. The qualifications for fifth density, however, involve understanding. This then, becomes the primary qualification for graduation from fourth to fifth density. To achieve this graduation the entity must be able to understand the actions, the movements, and the dance. There is no percentage describable which measures this understanding. It is a measure of efficiency of perception. It may be measured by light. The ability to love, accept, and use a certain intensity of light thus creates the requirement for both positive and negative fourth to fifth harvesting.
I took your argument that you were suggesting that there is disharmony in the 4th density due to the percentage of 98% that is being quoted here. Is that what you are suggesting?

If we go back to the thought war between The Confederation of Planets of the One Infinite Creator and The Orion Crusaders, I rest at my knife and lamp analogy. As I would like to believe that my journey is as valid as the one who seeks to destroy or enslave. Otherwise, I willingly choose to become enslaved. The Orion Crusaders, that is their offering, enslavement. That is the only offer that is on the table here. To not defend is to accept their offering.

[Ray711]

So, if you have a group of serial pedophiles who all want to go into an elementary school, do you let them?

My suggestion is simply that every action that we do sends a message to the world. If we think that it's justified being violent in order to stop entities that are prone to violence, we're sending to the world the message that violence is indeed the way to solve problems. This is not to say that violence is something to always avoid. You must do what you feel and think you have to do in each and every situation.

[Ray711]

I took your argument that you were suggesting that there is disharmony in the 4th density due to the percentage of 98% that is being quoted here. Is that what you are suggesting?

Well, if 98% is the end game of a 4d society in terms of polarity, then it's implied that they were of a lower polarity when they first begun 4d. How low? I don't think any of the material specifies that. And we can only guess in what ways their STS polarity translates into actions. The above Q'uo extract mentions that certain 4d positive entities might violate the free will of 3d entities, though. Carla said that she refused contact from the Pleiadians because she felt the contact was of mixed polarity.

[ScottK]

So, if you have a group of serial pedophiles who all want to go into an elementary school, do you let them?

My suggestion is simply that every action that we do sends a message to the world. If we think that it's justified being violent in order to stop entities that are prone to violence, we're sending to the world the message that violence is indeed the way to solve problems. This is not to say that violence is something to always avoid. You must do what you feel and think you have to do in each and every situation.

Violence? I'm not promoting violence. I'm promoting shielding from darkness. The only reason for violence is if you are forced into it. Barriers are a really good thing in 3d, because they are not violent and prevent violence.

[ScottK]

So, if you have a group of serial pedophiles who all want to go into an elementary school, do you let them?

No. You stop them from entering.

Exactly. Many seem to want to supersede common sense with the Ra material, where perhaps the best way is to use common sense but use the Ra material as a way to double check.

[ada]

To me, the basic existence of borders and countries owned and ruled by governments is quite negative to begin with, nobody actually owns anything on this Earth, it belongs to itself, to the creator, to all.

Comparing 3rd to 4th density is quite confusing too, we cannot comprehend.

So if the notion of separating(in 3rd density) groups of people by aggressive bordering and history of war is negative in nature, then any other idea related to that will just seem less/more negative, so I think.

[Ray711]

Violence?  I'm not promoting violence.  I'm promoting shielding from darkness.  The only reason for violence is if you are forced into it.  Barriers are a really good thing in 3d, because they are not violent and prevent violence.

Barriers are not without sacrifice either, though. They create separation between peoples and put us further away from Oneness.

EDIT: Beaten.

[ScottK]

Violence?  I'm not promoting violence.  I'm promoting shielding from darkness.  The only reason for violence is if you are forced into it.  Barriers are a really good thing in 3d, because they are not violent and prevent violence.

Barriers are not without sacrifice either, though. They create separation between peoples and put us further away from Oneness.

EDIT: Beaten.

What's wrong with letting in just those who wish to integrate into society, and let those who don't wish to peacefully coexist with us to stay out?

Do you want endless disharmony like the Orion Group wants?