Craigslist is no longer a venue for free speech.

[Cirocco]

Trolls control content. No original thoughts or discussion allowed.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Just like 4chan and parts of Reddit.

The internet gets monopolized by who owned the medium, in this case the website and who gives who access to moderating or controlling that little (or big) corner of the internet.

It's sad seeing a good venue get destroyed by those who would use it for their own enjoyment at the cost of what it could have been.  Trolls can be especially disappointing and frustrating, it is truly best to just ignore them completely and outright and only to mention to them that you don't like responding to trolls and nothing more.

[sjel]

don't go on craigslist then

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

But the catalyst calls us Sjel!

[Cirocco]

Just like 4chan and parts of Reddit.

The internet gets monopolized by who owned the medium, in this case the website and who gives who access to moderating or controlling that little (or big) corner of the internet.

It's sad seeing a good venue get destroyed by those who would use it for their own enjoyment at the cost of what it could have been.  Trolls can be especially disappointing and frustrating, it is truly best to just ignore them completely and outright and only to mention to them that you don't like responding to trolls and nothing more.

I didn't expect to see that in the science forum, but they're crawling all over, and the purpose is to control content.

[earth_spirit]

-----

[APeacefulWarrior]

"Trolls control content?" Unless you're saying the moderators are trolls and actively censoring other users, then this isn't about free speech. Trolls fundamentally have just as much right to say what they want as anyone else. If a board has a large influx of trolls, it's certainly unfortunate for all the non-trolls, but no one's free speech is actually being abridged.

You can choose to post to a board full of trolls, or you can choose not to. "Free speech" does not guarantee a right to a friendly audience.

[Spooner]

Trolls, so long as they are purely cyber trolls and pose no physical threat, help us by exercising our amygdalas. This is crucial to breaking the instinctive reactions that are part of our programming.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

"Trolls control content?"  Unless you're saying the moderators are trolls and actively censoring other users, then this isn't about free speech.  Trolls fundamentally have just as much right to say what they want as anyone else.  If a board has a large influx of trolls, it's certainly unfortunate for all the non-trolls, but no one's free speech is actually being abridged.  

You can choose to post to a board full of trolls, or you can choose not to.  "Free speech" does not guarantee a right to a friendly audience.

The most appropriate response to this post would be to troll you.  But I'll save you to experience, you'll realize one day there seems to be an agenda for what some trolls attack and what they accept.

In large enough numbers moderators aren't necessary, especially on high traffic boards like subreddits or image boards like the Chan's.

Post spiritual metaphysical stuff, five trolls assault your post and no one else is going to deal with it if they know they'll get attacked and trolled.

Seriously, reality isn't so simple, controlling content isn't so hard.

[Cirocco]

"Trolls control content?"  Unless you're saying the moderators are trolls and actively censoring other users, then this isn't about free speech.  Trolls fundamentally have just as much right to say what they want as anyone else.  If a board has a large influx of trolls, it's certainly unfortunate for all the non-trolls, but no one's free speech is actually being abridged.  

You can choose to post to a board full of trolls, or you can choose not to.  "Free speech" does not guarantee a right to a friendly audience.

Craigslist doesn't have moderators in the forums.

[APeacefulWarrior]

The most appropriate response to this post would be to troll you.  But I'll save you to experience, you'll realize one day there seems to be an agenda for what some trolls attack and what they accept.

In large enough numbers moderators aren't necessary, especially on high traffic boards like subreddits or image boards like the Chan's.

Post spiritual metaphysical stuff, five trolls assault your post and no one else is going to deal with it if they know they'll get attacked and trolled.

Seriously, reality isn't so simple, controlling content isn't so hard.

Um... how could you possibly think I haven't been trolled? Anyone who has been online more than, like, a few weeks has probably gotten trolled. And I've been online since the Usenet days. Hell, I've run my own message boards in the past and had to deal with trolls both as a user and as a moderator. I've even gotten my hands dirty from time to time, trolling trolls on Reddit in the past when I saw a need to run them off of a subreddit I liked. (Although I rarely bother with such games any more since it's like playing whac-a-mole, but with more negative energy buildup.)

That does not change one word of what I said. One group of people exercising their right to free speech DOES NOT and CAN NOT infringe on the free speech rights of others. You still remain utterly free to post whatever you like in a forum full of trolls. They just may turn out to be hostile to what you wrote. Once again, the right to free speech does not, in any way, imply a right to a receptive or friendly audience.

The only exception would be if the trolls went beyond verbal trolling and into actual attack activities such as doxxing or hacking. But as long as it's just people posting in a message board, then it is a pure exercise of Speech vs Speech, and that's that. And as an aside, you would be just as free to use their tactics against them. If reclaiming a forum is sufficiently important to you, then form your own brigade and attempt to rebalance the opinions in the forum to be more favorable to your point of view. Speech vs Speech.

Beyond that... I fully agree that many trolls are a-holes. But they have a right to be a-holes, and they are not restricting your rights by being a-holes.

[Cirocco]

For what it's worth -

I've been called everything but a Reuben sandwich on CL in regards to repeated attempts in both the history and the science forums to discuss the fake holocaust story (for which there is zero evidence) by posting factual and medical citations. In addition to the usual nazi stuff (I was born into a Jewish family), there is retard, tranny, idiot f-ing moron, etc. That's not the problem.

Last night there was a vehement and concerted effort to flag my posts even though it was on topic in both forums. Enough of those trolls complained to the help desk long and hard enough to elicit a temporary ban on my account. The trolls themselves didn't do that. CL did.

[APeacefulWarrior]

Well... All I can say is that there's a certain irony in all this, considering that holocaust deniers are generally considered trolls by everyone else. If you are going to indulge in your right to particularly unpopular speech among a group of people who aren't receptive to it, some form of blowback is basically inevitable and unavoidable. Just like how I would expect to have something similar happen if I went onto Stormfront talking about how awesome black people are, or onto Ayn Rand Institute forums trying to convert them to Marxism.

The ban, however, is unfortunate abuse of the system. I wonder if it was actually instituted by someone personally, or if there's just an automated response if a particular account receives (X) complaints, pending review.

[earth_spirit]

-----

[APeacefulWarrior]

Earth_spirit, he specifically used the word "fake." Perhaps YOU are a "Holocaust skeptic," but calling something a "fake story" with "zero evidence" is denial. Words mean things. If you're going to get upset at anyone here, it seems like it should be at Cirocco for mis-representing your cause. What he said absolutely fit the phrase "holocaust denier."

Either way, I am truly and utterly disinterested in having this conversation. If you two want to discuss your alternative holocaust ideas, whatever. Go to it. I don't have the power to stop you even if I wanted to. But I'm not going to get drawn into an argument about it either.

[earth_spirit]

-----

[APeacefulWarrior]

"Reading comprehension" does NOT entail "imagining things the person did not say." He specifically referred to the holocaust as a fake story with zero evidence, and that's all he said. If he didn't want to be perceived as a holocaust denier then he could have done as you did and provided more information about his beliefs. He did not, so I responded to what he said. Not guesses at what he didn't say.

But either way, if you really want to get pissy that I didn't use your preferred terminology... Fine, whatever. Have fun. The rapidity with which you jumped down my throat makes it appear that you're just itching for an argument, and I'm not nearly interested enough to provide it.

Cheers.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

The most appropriate response to this post would be to troll you.  But I'll save you to experience, you'll realize one day there seems to be an agenda for what some trolls attack and what they accept.

In large enough numbers moderators aren't necessary, especially on high traffic boards like subreddits or image boards like the Chan's.

Post spiritual metaphysical stuff, five trolls assault your post and no one else is going to deal with it if they know they'll get attacked and trolled.

Seriously, reality isn't so simple, controlling content isn't so hard.

Um...  how could you possibly think I haven't been trolled?  Anyone who has been online more than, like, a few weeks has probably gotten trolled.  And I've been online since the Usenet days.  Hell, I've run my own message boards in the past and had to deal with trolls both as a user and as a moderator.  I've even gotten my hands dirty from time to time, trolling trolls on Reddit in the past when I saw a need to run them off of a subreddit I liked.  (Although I rarely bother with such games any more since it's like playing whac-a-mole, but with more negative energy buildup.)

That does not change one word of what I said.  One group of people exercising their right to free speech DOES NOT and CAN NOT infringe on the free speech rights of others.  You still remain utterly free to post whatever you like in a forum full of trolls.  They just may turn out to be hostile to what you wrote.  Once again, the right to free speech does not, in any way, imply a right to a receptive or friendly audience.  

The only exception would be if the trolls went beyond verbal trolling and into actual attack activities such as doxxing or hacking.  But as long as it's just people posting in a message board, then it is a pure exercise of Speech vs Speech, and that's that.  And as an aside, you would be just as free to use their tactics against them.  If reclaiming a forum is sufficiently important to you, then form your own brigade and attempt to rebalance the opinions in the forum to be more favorable to your point of view.  Speech vs Speech.

Beyond that...  I fully agree that many trolls are a-holes.  But they have a right to be a-holes, and they are not restricting your rights by being a-holes.

Again.  The most appropriate response would be to troll you.  Hard.  Consistently.  Until no one deals with you in fear of also being trolled.

You think you've been trolled, but just how badly? Did you ever have a group follow you around insulting you, spreading rumors about you, debasing every little thing you said with any exception imaginable to derail you and force you away from simple conversation?

Let me simply say, I do not believe you understand the depth of the issue here, and I could argue that you're softly trolling in your arguments that highly abusive people abusing you online is not an infringement upon you.

I'll keep that in mind and make sure to highly troll any threads you make.  The best way to learn is through experience after all.

Also, you seem to have your own slants of this discussion.  Is it really a free environment to post something only to be attempted to be run off by others who disagree? Is that really not infringement in your eyes???

I don't know what trolls you dealt with.  I had the pleasure of dealing with ones who overall did the following:
Pretended to be my friend, gave me Photoshop brushes, that had a hidden delete Windows32 virus on it.
Leaked my phone number and email, made me out as an escort and someone who would f*** dogs and goats and advertised this publicly without my knowledge with my face attached.
Followed me to every instance of online activity they could find and attacked me there.
Accrued a lolzy /b/ group to hourly sms bomb my phone so it'd die within an hour.
Signed me up via my email to every unfathomable kink site online to make my email be bombarded with disgusting emails.

You clearly haven't an idea the depth of abuse trolls can inflict or how they can destroy your self esteem.

Also, as far as I see, you just did to Cirocco what happened to E_s back in the feminism thread.  You jumped to a conclusive label in judgment of a person's ENTIRE being based on a few posts.

Maybe ask for further details, at least with people here.

Ironically, I recall Cirocco once calling you a troll in how you were responding to him.

Is it not possible you don't realize you're quietly trolling someone by always derailing their posts with your own affirmations of how reality is?  Just speculating, not calling.you a troll but seriously, I feel a gentle trolling vibe going on with you here and I am curious as to why you are so contrasted against such kinds of posts?

I don't personally know why its acceptable to quickly label a person based on first impressions but it really pisses me off, I think if we all stepped back and felt some compassion for each other we'd not think so lowly of each other.

Truly APW, I don't think you are aware of how badly trolling has become.

And further, CL isn't a place you'd want to defend.  For a free speech medium it is awfully censored with macro's that autoflag specific kinds of posts to force only the ones the macroer designer wants.
That is infringement if you ask me.  Try to run a business ad on CL to...fix computers.  it'll get flagged.  To sell certain belongings, might ger flagged, to find a hook up, flagged, to make a friend, flagged, to discuss certain topics, flagged.

CL is NOT supportive of free speech in that it makes no response to stop the current abusive uses of the site by people who know how to abuse it.

I had to remake a Chakra Reading post to exclude the words Divine and Divination as any post with those terms was autoflagged within minutes.

Do you perhaps realize that you're defending these abuses indirectly by arguing they are not infringing on others?

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Truly, you haven't been trolled hard enough until you have one insulting you personally over endless text messages.

I remember it clearly

TAKE A SHOWER SMELLY NASTY f***
TAKE A SHOWER SMELLY NASTY f***
KILL YOURSELF SO YOU SMELL MORE APPROPRIATE
KILL YOURSELF SO YOU SMELL MORE APPROPRIATE
I CAN SMELL YOU FROM HERE, YOU'RE DISGUSTING
I CAN SMELL YOU FROM HERE, YOU'RE DISGUSTING
TAKE A BATH YOU DISGUSTING f***
TAKE A BATH YOU DISGUSTING f***

And thats not even a quarter of the stuff I had to deal with...

ENJOY THAT GOAT ASS YOU SMELL LIKE GOAT CRAP KILL YOURSELF
-repeats for an entire day-
Had over 50 texts in one minute, for 24 hours.

You don't know, APW...

[APeacefulWarrior]

Ugh, really?  I have a different opinion than you on the matter of rights and infringement, so I'm "softly trolling."  Yes, let's just go around calling everyone a "troll" the moment they say something we disagree with!  Then we can all be like little children on a playground calling each other stupid poopyheads.  Won't that be fun!  

(Also, I explicitly said in posts above that it was a different matter if the trolls moved out of the public forum and into direct personal attack...)

But otherwise, you know what?  If some troll was so pissed at me they were spending huge amounts of time sending stupid childish texts at me, I would be laughing at them.  All that effort being expended on their part, just to create such an inconsequential effect!   In fact, something similar did happen to me about 15 years ago, when I was running my own message board and some troll was filling it with lengthy sh*tposts attacking me.  I mean, the dude was spending what had to be hours and hours trying to disrupt the board, even though it would only take me a couple minutes in the admin console, a couple times a day, to clean up his filth.  

What a waste of his time!  What a pathetic display of his lack of anything productive to do with his life!  Why would I let someone like that get under my skin?

I even sent him a couple messages pointing out what a colossal waste of his time it all was and suggesting he find something better to do. But when he still didn't stop, I pulled his IP addresses from the logs, discovered he was posting from a major university's computing labs, and informed them of the matter.  The combination of the IPs and timestamps meant they could pinpoint who was doing it and, while I don't know exactly what happened to him, the attacks ceased immediately.

And yes, I've also had Redditors try to follow me around trolling me. Every time, I've made them regret their poor tactical choices, or at least give up and go away.

Like all bullies, trolls like that only have power over a person if that person gives them that power.  In fact, that's one of the big reasons I try to point out whenever people are acting like victims or going around looking for excuses to think of themselves as oppressed.  Such behavior ONLY emboldens the trolls and the bullies and the victimizers and the oppressors.  It's the equivalent of wearing a "kick me!" sign on one's back in perpetuity.  A sense of personal empowerment is called for, not throwing away that empowerment at the first sign of adversity. When a troll has become so fixated on you that they're stooping to such behavior, then that gives YOU power over THEM, because their behaviors are dictated by your behaviors and they are the ones sticking their necks out. Take the opportunities they give you to out them as trolls to the world, get them banned, report them to the police, whatever. Hell, if nothing else, just laugh at them and keep laughing until they give up and find another target.

BE EMPOWERED.

Recognize that trolls (and I mean real trolls, not "oh, this person has an opinion that makes me angry so I'm calling them a troll") are sad, empty little people whose opinion should not matter in the slightest to a reasonable person, and their power is nearly eradicated.  

[APeacefulWarrior]

And as an addendum, realtalk:  Read "The Art of War."  If trolls are a problem for you, there is a whole lot of advice in it which is just as applicable on the Internet as on ancient Chinese battlefields.  I've sometimes wondered if Sun Tzu was positive or negative, but either way, he had an excellent grasp on power dynamics and the value of 'soft' warfare which focuses on information and perception rather than direct combat.

(I mean, one would assume that a book called "The Art of War" would be negative, yet the overwhelming message of the book is "Whenever possible, achieve your goals without direct conflict."  For a time and place which was unavoidably drenched in war, that's about as positive a practical message as one could hope for.)

[smc]

I don't see APW as a soft troll...

having the self respect, intelligence and patience to assert ideas on b4 requires a self confidence that can anger people


*giving the domineering, sexist, unconscious of privilege - boys club egregore one more example*


you all presume Cirrocco is a "he"

agggggg     *so over-it face*

how can people expect to understand reality and change the world for the better when they can't even see their own old fashioned sexism?

SMC is not "he/his"
Cirrocco is not "he/his"
RA is not "he/his"

To (ironically) paraphrase C_A :

"You jumped to a conclusive label in judgment of a person's ENTIRE being based on a few posts."

Re : Craigslist/trolls et al

What you allow - continues

(Associating with people throwing petrol bombs? Don't complain if you get 3rd degree burns.)


How about taking practical action in your daily life to create STO ?

what you focus on you create more of

look after your psychic and emotional 'hygiene'
care for yourself, befriend yourself, accept yourself - and then from a happier place send your love outwards to actual people in your daily offline life

talking in circles, arguing online - is transient time wasting...


'craigslist'?

- you can purify your heart in a rainforest (or park or garden, or look at a pot-plant) and sing a song of praise to creation

- or get soul itch in a sleazy, lowest common denominator bar-room brawl of intoxicated egoistic shouty oneupMANship; achieving a headache and a (virtual) bloody nose... knowing you'll be drawn back, like an addict needing another 'fix' - of DRAMA - of diversion - (diversion from what you really need to attend to in your life but you're avoiding because it requires you to get up off the couch and have the willpower to disengage from your computer vortex.)

your choice

[Aion]

I forgot Craigslist has a forum.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Didn't call you a troll, just said I get that vibe from you when you interact with certain people.

I really shouldn't post if no one is going to fully read it.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

I think the irony in all of this is how hypocritical we all sound.

We are truly a group of enlightened people

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

And SMC, I call Ra a she by default.

Won't even touch the rest of the post because its hard to explain the hypocrisy of the gender neutral he usage mistaken as sexism where the user has no sexist intent.

When did sexism come into this anyway?? Nevermind, don't answer that, I see everything said being played with like loose blocks.

I'll just simply take my leave of the closedmindedness, God knows I'm closedminded enough as it is.

[APeacefulWarrior]

Didn't call you a troll, just said I get that vibe from you when you interact with certain people.

I really shouldn't post if no one is going to fully read it.

Come on Coordinate, really? You said you "could argue (I am) softly trolling" and that "(I) don't realize (I'm) quietly trolling someone" and that I have a "gentle trolling vibe." I'm sorry, but after saying such things three times in that post -which yes, I did read and respond to in some detail- your disclaimer about "not calling (me) a troll" came off as pretty insincere. Seriously, man. If you don't want to call me a troll, then don't repeatedly compare me to a troll. Or if you DO want to call me a troll, then at least own up to it.

But as far as I'm concerned, that's neither here nor there. What saddens me is that you completely ignored everything I wrote about how there are other ways about dealing with trolls and how having a sense of self-empowerment is key. (Did you even read it?) I was being serious about what I wrote. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm trying to help you understand that you do NOT have to be victimized by trolls. You don't have to let them wear you down. You certainly don't have to allow them to "destroy your self esteem."

I've been through similar experiences as you. The difference is, I didn't let the trolls hurt me. I didn't let myself become a victim. And you could do the same, if you wanted to.

[Spooner]

I came here to say
(1) official holocaust math makes no sense. Literally not enough time to burn that many bodies to ash
(2) 6 million figure is literally made up from extremely unreliable demographic estimates
(3) historical evidence for death toll in the millions is extremely scant
(4) it has all the signs of a psyop with all the right motives
(5) it is illegal to skeptically research in countries where evidence is available
(6) huge business from reparations payments
(7) serves U.S. and Israel imperialist interests by neutering European nationalism

[Cirocco]

There is also the physical evidence in photographs of that era, which I will not post here.

All photos show a thantological condition called livor mortis, the pooling of blood on the lowest part of the cadaver that shows up in black and white pictures as a mottled bruising effect. Both HCN and CO are gases that would mask livor mortis and would be visible as large patches of bruising all over the body.

For the record, I'm a 'she' as well, though it doesn't seem to matter at this point. It wasn't my intention to start an argument, only to vent off some anger.