Why I am not a vegan

[Patrick]

I just noticed that bring4th lost Monica.  This saddens me.  

Indeed, it has been my experience that the subject of diet in relation to spirituality has always been the most divisive one.  Even more so than talks about STS and STO.

I wish for healing for all involved.  But this is the last time I will ever contribute to this subject in relation to spirituality.

I wish you well Monica and I love you.

 

[Cyclops]

I didn't read the whole thread, only some of Monica's posts here to understand her view since I'm not in her camp. I kind of feel she's right, and I cannot reconcile the right of eating animals no matter how I think about it. Hopefully when I'm a bit more independent I can make some different food choices if all goes well. Monica your passion hasn't been for naught and it reached me.

[Nía]

Why I’m Not ‘Vegan’  

[Kaaron]

*insert Michael Jackson eating popcorn meme*

[April Wu]

Our friend Monica said in previous post "It's just that the vegan always wins on all counts, whether it's in regards to health, ethics, or the environment." It's not a competition, nobody will be a winner or a loser. There's nothing but love here. The plants, animals, humans and different opinions are made of love. No choice is superior to another. Because all is one.
Ra says that he is an humble messenger of the Law of One. I always like the word "humble", Ra can still learn something from us even he is 6D entity. It's normal to have disagreement, but we can learn from our opponents or we can just let it go and stick to our hearts. Could we, as seekers, pass through the surface of each argument and go deeper to see love behind it? Then maybe we're not willing to argue again but to send love only.

[Diana]

Our friend Monica said in previous post "It's just that the vegan always wins on all counts, whether it's in regards to health, ethics, or the environment." It's not a competition, nobody will be a winner or a loser. There's nothing but love here. The plants, animals, humans and different opinions are made of love. No choice is superior to another. Because all is one.

I think I understand what you mean in the above.

To clarify however, I'm sure Monica did not mean to be in competition. Her concern was compassion for other life forms (meat and meat byproduct animals) and raising awareness, not in being right or winning.

I have to disagree that no one will be a loser. The animals in factory farms not only lose their lives at slaughter, but get no chance to even live their lives other than in torturous conditions. I don't see that as love. I understand that you may mean from a larger perspective, but this reality has a part to play as well.

[GreatSpirit]

Since this thread is still going, I wanted to yet again show why I am not vegan.

[url= https://www.libertariannews.org/2016/01/...ear-later/]

This is due to cholesterol results from a vegan. It said 1 year later but its 8 months.

The reason why HDL remained neutral (still very low), total cholesterol is still low but did increase, LDL dropped, and the very high triglycerides is because of the excessive carb intake. With triglycerides this high, the low total cholesterol and HDL this low, this person is at very high risk for some cardiac event using the triglyceride/HDL ratio. Even though the fasting glucose isn't diabetic by ADA standards, 82mg/dL is still low fasting for a glucose driven body. They probably have low energy throughout the day.

This person is destroying their health by their diet and the stress that comes with it.

[Plenum]

the thing is, there are *so* many ways to be a vegan; just like there are *so* many ways to be an omnivore.

you've talked about the high-carb issue before.  And that can affect someone if they are a vegan or an omnivore.

At the end of the day, the goal is to seek good health, is it not?  

[GreatSpirit]

At the end of the day, the goal is to seek good health, is it not?  

Absolutely, and this person is doing a horrible job at it with a lipid profile and triglyceride/HDL numbers like that. It's certainly not healthy whatever this person was doing and is evidenced by their results.

I suspect that a high carb/low fat/low protein non-animal based approach was used because of such high triglycerides and low HDL.

[April Wu]

Our friend Monica said in previous post "It's just that the vegan always wins on all counts, whether it's in regards to health, ethics, or the environment." It's not a competition, nobody will be a winner or a loser. There's nothing but love here. The plants, animals, humans and different opinions are made of love. No choice is superior to another. Because all is one.

I think I understand what you mean in the above.

To clarify however, I'm sure Monica did not mean to be in competition. Her concern was compassion for other life forms (meat and meat byproduct animals) and raising awareness, not in being right or winning.

I have to disagree that no one will be a loser. The animals in factory farms not only lose their lives at slaughter, but get no chance to even live their lives other than in torturous conditions. I don't see that as love. I understand that you may mean from a larger perspective, but this reality has a part to play as well.

yeah, my post is not comprehensive, last year i saw a movie called Unity, a documentary actually. Many animals like chicken and cows are in serious torturous conditions. These facts remind us to give more compassion and love to the animals and provide us an opportunity to serve. My post is more about the continious argument, but I see that Monica's concern is out of compassion. The animals' sacrifice teaches us love, maybe we can also spread this love in this thread, send love but not the feeling of separateness to others...

[Diana]

yeah, my post is not comprehensive, last year i saw a movie called Unity, a documentary actually. Many animals like chicken and cows are in serious torturous conditions. These facts remind us to give more compassion and love to the animals and provide us an opportunity to serve. My post is more about the continious argument, but I see that Monica's concern is out of compassion. The animals' sacrifice teaches us love, maybe we can also spread this love in this thread, send love but not the feeling of separateness to others...

There was another original thread, In Regard to Eating Meat, now closed (and I don't know where it is). There was much love spread in that thread, along with much division. The problem is that this subject is complex and deeply triggering. Which is why perhaps, it's important to canvass. There is a lot of catalyst to work with.

The animals' sacrifice teaches us love, maybe we can also spread this love in this thread, send love but not the feeling of separateness to others...

I see it more as human choice teaches humans love. That the animals are sacrificed is a direct result of human choice. Movies such as the one you saw hopefully spread awareness of what those choices mean.

For anyone interested in the Law of One, and most specifically compassion, this subject is very appropriate for this community in my view. It would be nice, as you say, if we could just send love to each other here even within this volatile subject. Though many here may be wanderers, we are also humans right now. And a very large, very sad part of the human drama is suffering. How much worse is that suffering when it is perpetrated on helpless beings such as children or animals?

[flofrog]

I agree with Diana.

I was a vegetarian in my twenties then for ease of being in standard business work I stopped. Today I would be a total vegetarian except I am married to an old french man who likes occasional meat and fish, so I eat bits of animal protein once in a while but honestly, if anyone visit a slaughterhouse, there is no way that it will not immediately make one a vegetarian, simple as that I think... lol

[Infinite Unity]

I agree slaughterhouses are awful. To be honest though even the grown food is done in a not so good manner. Fields and fields of the same crop. It diminishes the soil, not a good habitat all around, and all the trees and habitats that get destroyed to make these hyper farms. The crazy amount of chemicals sprayed on them. The system is just ridiculous. I am really sad for everyone on this planet. We are all so blind because of the social ego depriving everyone of action and choice. I am sad for the children of this world, and the sweet innocent animals, and even the plants we destroy. We are volatile right now. I love humanity though. Theres something beautiful even in our failings. The sweet tenderness of the human form, the warmth from carressing a lover. The soft lips of a passing kiss. The fire of making love. Oh the experiences of being a human. You start to see why we fail, and I understand that we only strive for love. Even if we dont call or strive in the correct way. Even if we can't see why we make the choices or desire the desires we do. Its all because of that seemingly elusive Love and unity.

[AnthroHeart]

Hi Aaron.. I have no judgments with whatever anyone chooses to believe and do as their choice. And I believe my body will produce vit B12 whenever necessary or any other nutrients my body needs. I take no supplements, and have been a vegetarian, and vegan for years. And if I choose to change back to flesh eating I feel free to do so, not out of fear of lacking something nutritionally, but out of my choice for the enjoyment of eating it. I'm also a clinical hypnotherapist, and past-life regressionist, and tests made with thousands of people under hypnosis has proven the body will make nutrients that it needs, or believes is necessary to exist, under hypnosis. There are many documented cases of this available.  And I believe for myself, all eating is for the pleasure, & the camaraderie, of being with friends and the group participation. And privately, & personally.. for my own pleasure. I'm also looking into Breatharianism as an alternative way of being. Which is adapting the body to living on the Prana energy that is everywhere. There are currently over 20,000 practicing breatharian's in the world. I have been following Ray Maor (from Israel) and Akahi for 6 yrs. http://akahmi.com/   &     https://youtu.be/QhBpdGxmMCU

There are many available choices.. and we are each the chooser of what we believe will be our experience.  And as an Adept wanderer, I get to choose whatever is in alignment with my knowing.  From a 6th dimensional reality, we are unlimited... and Breatharianism can be a way to end hunger, and dis-eases, and many other limitations. Its something to look at, as we expand in consciousness...

                                                                                                 Namaste,  Creighton

I may look into breatharianism. Through over 1000 hours of meditation through the last 10-15 years I've gotten dense enough in the Quantum Field that it's starting to satisfy my hunger. I think I'm doing it a different way than others have. I'll still eat in the nearterm until I am fairly sure that it's working for me. I'm not sure if my way is typical since it took so long to get to where I'm even looking into it. I had worked on converting my body to Light before. I am a little hungry in my stomach, but it comes and goes and I'll eat soon in a few hours. I'm not rushing it.

[Bosphorus1982]

Meat protein is necessary

[confusedseeker]

Meat protein is necessary

I agree. I don't want to be "that guy" but there is a huge agenda behind Veganism, without a lot of science and data that supports it. I think a better movement would be for sustainable, ethical farming. It's simply not viable to ignore what our digestive systems are set up for, especially on a large scale.

[Diana]

Meat protein is necessary

I agree. I don't want to be "that guy" but there is a huge agenda behind Veganism, without a lot of science and data that supports it.  I think a better movement would be for sustainable, ethical farming.  It's simply not viable to ignore what our digestive systems are set up for, especially on a large scale.

I agree that sustainable, ethical farming would be a first step, but a first step only.

What is the "huge agenda" behind veganism?

Our digestive system is set up for plants, not animal flesh (length of intestines for one thing).

I am the data you need. I haven't eaten meat since 1993. I started out vegetarian but became vegan. I am healthier than most people 20 years younger than me (I don't know many people who don't get colds and flus periodically). I look way younger than my age and I don't get sick.

The evidence and the science are out there, and most likely in this thread and others on the subject. I just don't feel like once again finding the sources and reposting it.

There is so much evidence that meat is bad for you I am surprised you can't find it. No offense intended. I am aware how insidious this information is to stay with the status quo and continue to consume animals products.

[sillypumpkins]

Just gonna throw out some info/discussion here that has helped me understand the whole veggie vs meat thing a little clearer:

First, a quote from Q'uo:

Austin: We have another one from Lanny that is in two parts—I will ask the first part first. “Q’uo, I would like to ask a question about eating meat. What are the spiritual principles and possibilities of polarization as one attempts to eliminate the use of animal products from their diet? When the reality of the situation is looked at, we have one set of beings expressing its dominance over another set of beings and from what I can tell are infringing on the free will of these beings as they live a life in which they are caged and grown just to be killed for meat. When we have the opportunity/option to be a steward of this planet and treat every being with respect and dignity, can you help enlighten me on this? Do second-density beings incarnate in the understanding that they will live this kind of life and therefore, we are not infringing on their free will? Or does each person make their choice, if they are even aware, as to whether they will take part in this?

Q’uo: I am Q’uo and am aware of the query, my brother. This is a query which moves to the level of understanding that all is One. The animals, as you call them, of the second-density variety, which are utilized by many on the surface of your third-density planet for food, are beings that have consciousness, that have a soul, that have the ability to give and to receive love. These entities, then, can be utilized by those of the third density in any way that third- density entities choose. This choosing is done in a conscious manner when the second-density entity that is to be consumed as a food, is asked before its slaughter, shall we say, if this is acceptable to such entity.

This is a situation in which many of the native tribes, shall we say, of your earthly sphere have long engaged in the utilizing of the second-density animals for their food. However, we find that it is seldom utilized in your third-density at this time, and it is more likely to be taken for granted that such second-density entities have been grown for this purpose, and would consider it a part of their life experience to give their lives and their bodies for food. However, this cannot be known for certain until there has been a communication established between the third-density entity and the second- density entity that is seen as a potential source of food.

Therefore, we find that for most entities within the third density who consume the meat products without such an establishment of communication beforehand, are in some way infringing upon the free will of the second-density entities. However, we would remind each third-density being that it is quite frequently accomplished, shall we say, that the infringement upon the free will of others is put forth or done in many and various ways on a daily basis, so that there is the need for each third-density entity to balance the catalyst of such infringement upon the free will of other entities, be they second or third-density entities.

Thus, it is not just in the consumption of the foodstuffs of second density that such infringement takes place. We would remind each third-density entity that the second-density foodstuffs in the form of plants also have a type of consciousness that is more likely to be able to blend in a harmonious fashion with the desire of third-density entities to see them as foodstuffs. This, however, is also enhanced when the third-density entity is able to see all food, be it animal or vegetable, as that which is conscious, that which contains the One Infinite Creator, and that which with a communication needs to be established in some manner, whether it is the saying of a blessing of the food or the asking of the food if it is acceptable to be utilized as food before it is so utilized.

We realize that most third-density entities are unable or unwilling or unaware of such a necessity, and move through their daily round of activities with a blindness to this possibility and necessity, as there is blindness to many ways of realizing the spiritual nature of the journey each seeker is upon. This journey of seeking is one which encompasses the entire reality of third-density so that all may be seen eventually as the One Infinite Creator and may be communicated with upon that level, so that for whatever reason, the portion of the One Creator that you are communicating with is to be used, that there will be a means by which the acceptance of this use by that portion of the Creator is achieved.

Second: some comments from Diana in this thread:

In addition to what Louisabell said above about plants and beans (thank you Louisabell), I have researched the database here and found some previous posts that speak to this thread and what has been posted on the issue at hand. I did this because we have gone over this subject many, many times—which indicates that there is much catalyst here, but also much curiosity and desire to evolve.

This from Jade:

You can eat plants without killing them, and in fact, it helps them. Fruits and vegetables contain seeds that, if processed naturally, end up back in the environment and that is how they propagate. Of course, modern plumbing is the bane then of fruits and vegetables, but truly, fruits and vegetables have evolved to be eaten by animals. I think we really need to get over the idea that just eating plants causes harm.

This from me:

The way I think of it is that I make choices that do the least harm. Plants have evolved to need animals to eat parts of them to propagate, and they don't die just because the fruits, seeds, flowers (like broccoli) and leaves are harvested. Plants don't have the same systems as we and animals do, especially a nervous system. Though plants have a survival instinct like all other life here, that survival is not the same as animal life. There are many factors that suggest plants are more geared to being eaten as sustenance, whereas we absolutely know animals do not want to be slaughtered (nevermind the torture they may endure in factory farms especially). You could mow down a field of weeds, wildflowers, wild plants, grasses, and the root systems would survive and continue to produce. Compare this to cutting off a leg of a cow. There are so many pointers that lead one to see plants as the natural (and kinder) food of this existence—since food there must be. Of course commercial farming is not ideal and does not usually align with any sort of compassion.

This from me:

Valtor Wrote:  Can I serve my other-selves by not eating? Not taking inside of me their energy? Will this end my incarnation? Maybe ending my incarnation in this way is the ultimate service-to-others act. It could be seen as very compassionate to other-selves, but also not compassionate to self. If compassion to others is used to measure polarity, then this sacrifice would provide extreme positive polarity?

The self is an other-self. This is part of the equation in my opinion. Respect for other-selves must include self. It is not balanced, in my opinion, to sacrifice.

In 3D, someone who is practicing compassion for all other-selves (including self) in regards to eating, might look around and consider what to eat. There is no reason to kill the self's vehicle. One could eat fruit, for instance.

Valtor Wrote:  Then, can I actually serve my other-selves by eating? Is it a communion in between self and other-self. The lower density other-selves (plants) sacrificing their incarnation to sustain ours. That is an act of love right ? Did these plants chose this before their incarnation? etc...

That was the kind of discussion of was trying to start at the beginning.

Plants offer parts of themselves to animals for food in order to propagate. This suggests a symbiotic, mutually beneficial relationship, rather than a sacrifice or offering of love on the part of the plants. I don't mean to say love is not involved. Just that it seems natural and beneficial for plant life to be food.

This from BrownEye:

3DMonkey Wrote:  Lol. I disagree completely. If you find yourself dropped in a jungle, meat is the ONLY way you will survive, and where there is a will there is a way.

I would love to see that. What I think you missed is the widely held belief that Man was created with fire in one hand and a spear in the other. Unless you want to believe that Man lived like jackals in the beginning, only eating flesh that was slow enough and sick enough to happen upon, I will stand by natural evolution and say it was impossible in the beginning. Even if it was not, then you have to accept that you are now at the bottom of the rung species wise, only having strength through reliance on technology and numbers, not brains or brawn.

I watched a nice show about a guy roughing it in the wild. He definitely had the will, but did not have the capability of the way. He was surrounded by flora and fauna, but believed he could only exist on animal matter. So even though he had a knife and emergency rations, he was pretty much starving from spending too much time hunting for porcupines which were the only thing slow enough for him to get close to. Instead of just eating what he had around him he wussed out and called for pickup in half the time that he advertised.

As I said earlier, it is a sick mind that ignores fruit hanging on a tree while salivating looking at an animal. If you see a cow eating flesh do you consider it normal? Or is it that it has not gone on long enough yet for society to believe it is completely normal? It is not natural or healthy, whether it applies to mind, body, or spirit. It is simply a result of programming by culture and society. The concept of programming the ego has been established since before the bible and Jesus brought it up himself in the most obvious text in the bible “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

I am not trying to convince you not to eat meat, You can eat your whole family and it would not bother me. What bothers me is when the wool is pulled over your eyes yet feeling the need to propagate that falsehood. Not you specifically of course, but any and all.

[Diana]

Thank you sillypumpkins for looking those posts up.

[Bosphorus1982]

According to another group (cassiopaea), Carla has deceased due to the lack of animal proteins after dieting for so many years. Just a reminder

Meat protein is necessary

I agree. I don't want to be "that guy" but there is a huge agenda behind Veganism, without a lot of science and data that supports it.  I think a better movement would be for sustainable, ethical farming.  It's simply not viable to ignore what our digestive systems are set up for, especially on a large scale.

I agree that sustainable, ethical farming would be a first step, but a first step only.

What is the "huge agenda" behind veganism?

Our digestive system is set up for plants, not animal flesh (length of intestines for one thing).

I am the data you need. I haven't eaten meat since 1993. I started out vegetarian but became vegan. I am healthier than most people 20 years younger than me (I don't know many people who don't get colds and flus periodically). I look way younger than my age and I don't get sick.

The evidence and the science are out there, and most likely in this thread and others on the subject. I just don't feel like once again finding the sources and reposting it.

There is so much evidence that meat is bad for you I am surprised you can't find it. No offense intended. I am aware how insidious this information is to stay with the status quo and continue to consume animals products.

[Patrick]

In our modern society, there is no need to consume animal products anymore.  It's important when reading the research on the subject to take the modern context into account.  By modern I do not mean only a question of technology, like B12 pills, but a question of the science and knowledge that gives us the information required to be healthy without any animal sources.  That is because, even without technology, B12 for example can be gotten from bacterial sources.  But we first need to know what B12 is and why it might be an issue if you stop consumption of all animal sources.

Now the societal debate is going to resolve around "if" and "how" we want to transit away from animal products.  This, in my opinion, is where many people are underestimating the difficulty.

The "how" is going to be a challenge for sure.  It will take some time before everything sold in groceries and everything served in restaurants is no longer sourced from animals and also happens to meet everyone expectations.

Regarding the "if", is there anyone in these forums who would prefer this process not to start at all ?  It would require zero effort from anyone and there is nothing that needs to change in your life at all.  This process will take generations and you will be able to finish your current incarnation while still eating meat no problems.  I myself still consume animal products, yet I have zero problem with society transiting away from it.

[Diana]

According to another group (cassiopaea), Carla has deceased due to the lack of animal proteins after dieting for so many years. Just a reminder

According to Ra in the material, they tried to get Carla to limit her meat consumption. I don't recall anything in the material about her "dieting." As far as I know, she liked burgers and steaks and promoted raw steaks for grounding (in her Channeling Handbook). 

Your source is not Ra. I would question their motives in saying such things.

[Bosphorus1982]

According to another group (cassiopaea), Carla has deceased due to the lack of animal proteins after dieting for so many years. Just a reminder

According to Ra in the material, they tried to get Carla to limit her meat consumption. I don't recall anything in the material about her "dieting." As far as I know, she liked burgers and steaks and promoted raw steaks for grounding (in her Channeling Handbook). 

Your source is not Ra. I would question their motives in saying such things.

Indeed source is not Ra. Anyway they are 6d and sto; just like Ra

[Margan]

I think it is indeed commendable for spiritual seekers to turn to vegetarianism, many spiritual leaders have advised so (Ramana Maharshi, I think also Anandamayi Ma)
Just think of it in terms of energy, meat is one of the densest foods you can consume. The thing about grounding is indeed true, it makes one more connected to matter and the material world.
But we actually want the opposite, we want the spirit to increase and become more spiritual. Therefore lighter meals are recommended.
As you have surely all heard, some very advanced human beings have stopped eating alltogether and live on prana.
In the end everyone has to decide for themselves and not all bodies are the same. We should never judge .

[Patrick]

...We should never judge someone for their eating habits.

Very good advice! In fact, we could just say it like this: "We should never judge".

We judge for ourselves what is ok or not for us, but should not push judgments unto others. Otherwise, it just creates more distortions.

[Margan]

...We should never judge someone for their eating habits.

Very good advice!  In fact, we could just say it like this: "We should never judge".

Your wish is my command, Sir "bows"

[Jade]

According to another group (cassiopaea), Carla has deceased due to the lack of animal proteins after dieting for so many years. Just a reminder

According to Ra in the material, they tried to get Carla to limit her meat consumption. I don't recall anything in the material about her "dieting." As far as I know, she liked burgers and steaks and promoted raw steaks for grounding (in her Channeling Handbook). 

Your source is not Ra. I would question their motives in saying such things.

Carla never abstained from meat even though Ra suggested she was allergic to it. In fact in perusing her old blog posts, there was a period of time where she was visiting vegetarian friends and she had to go out to a restaurant because her craving for meat was so strong, she could not go without it for more than a day. 

So, I would make the opposite assumption than the one claimed by the Casseiopaeans. Ra was very clear that meat was bad for her to consume, but she never took Ra for gospel anyway - she followed the Bible. 

And as regards to "needing" meat? I've been vegan almost 9 years now, and have a vegan since conception child that I breastfeed, who the pediatricians say is "perfect" at every appointment. We share by far the most DNA with chimpanzees, who are frugivores. Meat is a pleasure food, not a necessity. The largest land animals on our planet are herbivores. You may feel like you need meat but that's because you're addicted to the energy transfer facilitated by the consumption of the blood of the slaughtered. 

[confusedseeker]

Veganism is absolutely terrible for your health, even if you take out the agenda behind it.

[Diana]

Veganism is absolutely terrible for your health, even if you take out the agenda behind it.

I don't know why you think that. I am also a long-time vegan and like Jade, I am very healthy—healthier than many people way younger than me.

I am wondering what you think the "agenda" is. Please tell us.

[Patrick]

Veganism is absolutely terrible for your health, even if you take out the agenda behind it.

If you know what you're doing, it can be healthy. It does require a bit of education. But there are no showstoppers nowadays as far as I know.