how can 4th/5th/6th density negative entities exist without the veil?

[sjel]

I can understand making the choice of service-to-self within the illusion of separation. But doesn't the unity of all creation become instantly apparent once the veil is lifted? how can an entity continue on the path of illusion well after it is remembered that he pursues a dead-end goal, that he is one with all other-selves?

in sixth density the negative entity "reaches a brick wall," as Q'uo said, and he must switch polarities in one great moment. But given that we, as third density infants, can know that the positive polarity is the ultimate polarity, why do the negative entities not know/care?

[1109]

The veil is most pronounced in third density because of the separation between the conscious and unconscious mind. However beings in the higher densities don't necessarily have absolute knowing. Complete and perfect enlightenment is of the seventh density. That the positive polarity is in some way the "ultimate polarity" may be known intellectually but isn't truly known/felt until one reaches the density of unity.

[sjel]

That the positive polarity is in some way the "ultimate polarity" may be known intellectually but isn't truly known/felt until one reaches the density of unity.

Ah. Might it be like a personal challenge for each negative entity, to delay the reunification with Oneness for as long as possible? Because as you say, they intellectually know their efforts for ultimate authority over reality are in vain?

[Cyclops]

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._1104.aspx

Within that which is called the negative path, the consciousness more and more begins to conclude that all power, all glory, indeed, all of the creation resides within the consciousness of the self. Insofar as this conclusion is reached, it is identical to the conclusion reached by those who serve others. The negative path, however, chooses to worship not that which created this universe experienced, but the self for containing all that there is. Those who can handle this concept in a positive manner are few. There is no true surrender, no true desire to do the will of the Creator, but rather the Creator and the self, so co-mingled, become a non-thing, a non-thought, and in the end, an unworkable path of service.

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._1213.aspx

The reason that both polarities are acceptable ways to move towards the infinite Creator is that the service-to-self entity is quite correct when it sees that service to self is the service to the infinite Creator. Nothing that exists is not the infinite Creator, there is nothing to be of service to except the infinite Unity. However, the consciousness can choose to separate the self from others and use others or it can choose to attempt to unify itself with all others in service as if each entity were the self.

http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?s=87#7

Such an entity spends its consciousness within the realms of time/space in an attempt to learn the ways of wisdom through the utmost use of the powers and resources of the self. Since the self is the Creator, the wisdom density provides many informative and fascinating experiences for the negatively polarized entity. In some respects one may see a more lucid early attachment to wisdom from those of negative polarity as the nexus of positions of consciousness upon which wisdom is laid is simpler.

http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?s=48#6

In positive, the fifth-density complex uses sixth-density teach/learners to study the more illuminated understandings of unity thus becoming more and more wise. Fifth-density positive social memory complexes often will choose to divide their service to others in two ways: first, the beaming of light to creation; second, the sending of groups to be of aid as instruments of light such as those whom you’re familiar with through channels.

In fifth-density negative, service to self has become extremely intense and the self has shrunk or compacted so that the dialogues with the teach/learners are used exclusively in order to intensify wisdom. There are very, very few fifth-density negative Wanderers for they fear the forgetting. There are very, very few fifth-density Orion members for they do not any longer perceive any virtue in other-selves.

I gathered up these quotes because I feel this speaks to the why. I think a being's perspective on unity is why the negative polarity exists outside the veil, like these quotes above show that even extremely wise entities who are fully aware that all are one, by their perspective or point of view can remain negative.

Perhaps they see it as an all or nothing view, the creator is all that there is, and they are the creator so they see it as all other selves are them, nothing and no one else exists and thus everything is under their will..(just as the positive being would see that all other selves are them and feel unconditional love towards itself as the other being). This is taken a step further even with the last quote of shrinking down, all other selves can be ignored and the complete creator of just the entity itself is sought.

I also feel that 1109's post mentioning the 7th density is the answer as well, perspectives of unity might exist until they are not possible anymore, and 6th being the preparation of a perspective on unity to unlock 7th for the final dissolution.

[APeacefulWarrior]

I think the TL;DR of Cyclops' quotes could be boiled down to: "Negative entities -especially 5D/6D- already see themselves AS Creator and, as such, attempt to reform the world according to their desires because they perceive no powers higher than themselves." Which would also be my short answer to the question.

I'd say you can even see this reflected in the behavior of negatively-polarized humans on Earth. They tend to universally reject the idea that they could ever be wrong about anything, or that anyone has any ability to gainsay them. And perceiving conflict with their own desires, they will often go to incredible lengths to remove that source of conflict, seeing it as an exercise of Willpower. Any conflict resolved in their favor, no matter how extreme the methods employed, is further proof (to them) of their inherent superiority.

[Minyatur]

I'd tend to disagree a bit with what you said, I'd think like you said that they know and see themselves as Creator, just like they know and see others as Creator, where I'd think otherwise is that they do not necessarily see themselves as superior (which doesn't mean that they can't either) but instead see themselves as the prime actor of their reality, as such they allow themselves to be truthful to the exploration of themselves and their desires. A STO entity also does this, it is simply that for the One to be walking the negative path through an individualized portion of itself, it requires that as an entity, this being already is dissonant with positive densities, as such it could seek to ignore this fact but would most likely simply come to deny what it is and not resolve it by doing this unless it becomes a truthful desire at some point.

So more than seeing themselves as superior, I think most seek to heighten the experience of themselves and gain power over their reality so that they can do this. As all is One, their desires are not lesser than those of others, so as they are themselves before being others, the seek to accomodate themselves before others.

I think the higher an entity is in densities, the more it will see what it does as serving others. By walking upon others they make their soul stronger and less fragile, they give them more knowledge of experience and states of being, giving them greater free will into making a choice about their desired experience and what they can seek, they know it will allow each being to know love in greater ways and harvest a greater light within themselves, they know it creates new paths of experience whih is infinitely sought by the One as a mean to know Itself. I think to attain 6D in any polarized densitiy requires that you see all that you have done as the perfect role you were given to have within Creation, that you never did mistakes but only were what you were required to be for yourself and others.

[APeacefulWarrior]

You know, what you wrote sounds to me like a more detailed version of my TL;DR. I say "seeing themselves as Creator;" you say "prime actor of their reality." There's a pretty fine difference between those, anyway. Although personally, I tend to think the "forced" 6D changeover more comes from a negative 6D hitting a brick wall in terms of progress, and is finally forced to embrace other-selves simply because they've tried everything else.

But then again, Ra really avoided talking much about 6D negs. I've wondered on occasion if that was deliberate.

[Minyatur]

You know, I think we're just disagreeing on what exactly "being the Creator" implies.  

What I disagreed about was that they would see themselves as superior (could see their ways as superior though) and that they think they can do no wrong (other than thinking there is no wrong which Ra also stated).

I guess to me being the Creator implies infinity and being co-creator implies being a fractal of infinity, all within the desire of the Creator to know Itself.

Personally I'd love to see it being more common to switch polarity across one's evolution. That one could experience 4D STO but desire to experience 4D STS before moving on to 5D and such. Then 5D STS back to 5D STO before moving into 6D where both polarity could probably be switched in-between pretty much at will. I think those who walk the light path are rare to seek to experience STS densities out of a conscious choice and mainly only do so from 6D. And those who walk the dark path mainly got there out of circumstances and without those circumstances the light one is close to just a default choice that understands little the other path and perceive it as folly just as the opposite is true.

I guess what I want to see to happen would take events (much like this earth) which little want to see happen and I'll either need to remain in this Octave a long time still to see a change happen or give up on wanting to see this and let it most likely happen without my individualization being present. Ultimately I think it is inevitable that the walls of separation between polarized densities will fade with time as both become sometwhat normalized as a valid choice of experience as perceived by both sides. None unlike the self nor the Creator, just a mirror to experience what we truly are.

[Minyatur]

To me both paths can only be incomplete on their own and are whole together.

[APeacefulWarrior]

Wow you started your reply quickly. I actually re-wrote my comment almost immediately because I decided what I said initially was too flippant. Sorry about that. (If this had been Reddit, I woulda just deleted and started over, but . . .)

However, I still stick to my belief that many\most negatives will tend to think of themselves as infallible, especially if they're strongly polarized. I'd point to Ra's quote about 5D negs seeing no virtue in other-selves. One cannot believe themselves at fault if they do not acknowledge any other authority. I also see Ayn Rand as a key example of this behavior in people. (Since I very strongly think she was one of the rare high-D negative Wanderers.) She was infamous for excommunicating even long time friends\group-members over very slight disagreements, especially if they dared contradict her own perceptions. One of the best-known incidents involved her outright hallucinating during post-op recovery in the hospital, thanks to the anesthesia wearing off, and kicked out friends for telling her that her hallucinations weren't real.

And yes, she upheld the ban even once she was fully "down" and clear-headed. Because no one EVER told Ayn Rand what isn't real besides Ayn Rand.

But like you, I'm also curious how often entities switch back and forth. I tend to think it probably happens quite a bit, although I've got no idea what the actual percentages would be. Like there's that one story Ra told about the 4D Wanderers whose mission went so off-track that they ended up flipping negative in a single human lifetime. That sorta thing probably happens quite a bit, and I tend to agree that entities who do so likely end up having a fairly quick\smooth transition into 7D specifically because they've already seen both sides of the coin from multiple perspectives.

Or for that matter, there's apparently a mildly-negative 5D in my own higher S-M-C that I occasionally interact with, although he hasn't made his presence known lately. I was told by one of my positive guides that he's roughly 60/40 neg/pos and that "He accepts the truth of Oneness but doesn't particularly like it." So he's hanging out with my S-M-C to learn more about the positive path and Oneness, and presumably the S-M-C is gaining from having his unique perspectives in the mix. And he's positive enough to play nice(ish) within the group, even if he's still pretty self-focused and closed-off.

[Verum Occultum]

I can understand...

Each being is enclosed to its interpretation of reality, because all the information of the existence is subjective. My understanding is that the negative entity clothes its reality with falsity. Falsity being that which is not. That which is, is love/light. In the absence of that which is, there is an endless abyss of those things considered dark. The negative entity harnesses from this abyss the power to think, interpret, feel and act in ways that bring about a reality as real and lucid as the reality of light. However, it is metaphysically different. For them the abyss is not dark. They enjoy the power of the abyss and solely love to create differently.

(80.8)

...The power of falsity is deep as is the power to discern truth from shadow. The shadow of hidden things is an infinite depth in which is stored the power of the One Infinite Creator.

The adept, then, is working with the power of hidden things illuminated by that which can be false or true. To embrace falsity, to know it, to seek it, and to use it gives a power that is most great. This is the nature of the power of your visitor and may shed some light upon the power of one who seeks in order to serve others as well, for the missteps in the night are oh! so easy.

I believe the progress through densities is one which gains greater and greater momentum of desire to evolve. The call of the Absolute and Magnificent presence of the Creator can be heard louder and louder as one walks closer to it. And the learn/teachings are very intense or more dense in deeper densities of reality. So the negative entity just keeps moving forward. They know unity, but it could be that the perspective of unity is different in positive and negative space/time & time/space. I remember someone said brilliantly on another thread that while for the positive entity negative time/space is dark, it is bright for the negative entity. So they are able to absorb service to self on the same level of intensity as a star radiates its light, physically speaking. This speaks for the compacted state. It is a metaphysical state.

(48.6)

...In fifth-density negative, service to self has become extremely intense and the self has shrunk or compacted so that the dialogues with the teach/learners are used exclusively in order to intensify wisdom... There are very, very few fifth-density Orion members for they do not any longer perceive any virtue in other-selves.

I assume a sixth-density entity is willing to teach/learn the fifth-density entity. Is there virtue in other-selves after all? The student is seen and experienced as the Self by the teacher, and thus, the offering of negative wisdom is seen as a service to the self, because service to self is perpetuated through the other-self even more powerfully with increased wisdom. It is a win-win situation.

(45.11)

...Beyond a certain point the evolution of spirit is quite dependent upon the understanding of self and other-self as Creator.

But this is not the misnomer called virtue that is seen in others which I believe is still seen by late fourth-density negative entities. In fourth-density negative, others are seen as minions by the more powerful. The minions are valuable because they can be controlled and the desires of the self can be disseminated, with more or less effort. Effort seems to imply struggle. Perhaps the needs of the minion(s) are not completely ignored so that there appear no undesired anomalies in the behavior of the controlled. In this way, both the master and the servant gain a fair share of increase in negative polarity, but one always stays on top of the other. This I believe is one method of energy harmonization which creates the opening for the merging of the social complex into a social memory complex, but as things and situations rearrange constantly, so do the energies rearrange, and therefore disharmony, the disintegration of the social memory complex follows.

Now, with wisdom the fifth-density negative entity realizes its self-sufficiency in the ways of thought and no longer needs other-selves as extensions of the Self. The struggle for power between other-selves is unnecessary because the real power is within the use of intelligent energy. Other-selves have become annoyances or obstacles on the path to the Creator. They are merely fools stumbling upon their own foolishness and they do not deserve help, nor is it optimal for those below to become more powerful than the Self.

Edit: actually, I found a good Ra quote to back me up:

(87.9)

...The fourth-density habit is that of offering temptations and of energizing pre-existing distortions. Fourth-density entities lack the subtlety and magical practice which the fifth-density experience offers.

So with this said, sjel, I think that those beyond the veil in the negative densities know unity very well, but their perspective of it is different. Or maybe they just do not care. They are the Creator. But it is also to be noted that experience is significantly different from density to density. The sixth-density negative being can progress no further after a certain point of awareness, because its experience is no longer separate from the experience of the other-self. There is then the great entropy in attempting to bring all that falsity, all that darkness and weight upon yourself. And because the level of comprehension in sixth-density is so wide and intense, you understand all of your experiences in space/time from that level of comprehension. No moment is lost in time. By further accelerating negative thought/action towards others, you are then 'killing' yourself and that can no longer be ignored. The STS ride can be fun and painful, but the power is so much!

Ps. then in the end you just forgive yourself for all that you have done and stop the wheel of karma 

[AnthroHeart]

I guess they figure that since they harvested negative from 3d, that it would be more work to go positive and possibly have to repeat 3D.

[Patrick]

"...the service-to-self choice is one which denies the very center of the spectrum; that being universal love. Therefore, all that is built upon the penetration of the light of harvestable quality by such entities is based upon an omission. This omission shall manifest in fourth density as the love of self; that is, the fullest expression of the orange and yellow energy centers which then are used to potentiate communication and adepthood.

When fifth-density refinement has been achieved that which is not is carried further, the wisdom density being explored by entities which have no compassion, no universal love. They experience that which they wish by free choice, being of the earnest opinion that green-ray energy is folly." (B4,91)

 

[Minyatur]

I'd say folly in regards to themselves and not necessarily the whole green-ray aspect in most cases. A lot are probably envy the purity of those of the light which creates a contrast upon their own darkness and makes them seek to separate themselves even more from others.

To be honest, descriptions of the STS path are the only parts of the Ra material I felt to be very lacking in what they offer. But then again, it is an external stand point that came from observation of beings that close themselves up and seek not to be understood. To seek to be understood would be opening themselves to be loved which they do not want for various reasons, one being that it hurts them by making them face what needs to be healed within themselves.

[Verum Occultum]

...But then again, it is an external stand point that came from observation of beings that close themselves up and seek not to be understood. To seek to be understood would be opening themselves to be loved which they do not want for various reasons, one being that it hurts them by making them face what needs to be healed within themselves.

I think this is very well said.

[AnthroHeart]

I wonder if 4th density negative is more fun than 4th density positive.

Maybe not if it's like Scanners.

[sjel]

But then again, it is an external stand point that came from observation of beings that close themselves up and seek not to be understood. To seek to be understood would be opening themselves to be loved which they do not want for various reasons, one being that it hurts them by making them face what needs to be healed within themselves.

i agree, well said. on a related tangent - just imagine that moment, mid-sixth density, when the negative entity switches polarities. millions of years of imposing one's will, of separation, of the opposite of unity, released in one moment to complete and utter openness. wow. on a vastly smaller scale that's like the dictator turning Buddhist. but here there's millions of years of separation...

[Minyatur]

I'd think it is extremely freeing. Being of a STO polarity probably is the greatest service to the self. All that accumulated darkness is harvested into Light.

To repolarize would take a lot of distillement as to be positive you need to perceive yourself as positive which includes your past. Wandering probably is most helpful to experience being positive while being separated from one's past, which would allow negative entities to face their own desire to be positive, just as their own appreciation of that state or beingness.

[Minyatur]

how can an entity continue on the path of illusion well after it is remembered that he pursues a dead-end goal, that he is one with all other-selves?

I've been thinking a bit more about this and I think the reason why it can be pursued despite being a path of illusion is that it is the simply nature of any duality that is sought to be experienced.

The female energy, STS, self within many-ness, everythingness... all of those are things that exist within a duality of something and their counter-part is not truly without them, they are false yet the idea of them is real within the experience of them, they make something other that contains them more complete. STO and STS are the Thought of Love being made complex, each have their own role and as with any duality, there is the default one which ressembles more the original thought yet is made incomplete to contain the original thought without it's counterpart.

So I'd say STS is pursued because Love is more than STO. And eons of STS being transmuted back to STO is still nothing like STO having been experienced exclusively, yet the harvest of them both would be positive.

Ultimately we all are One that sits in a timeless and spaceless void where there is no star, no others and not even dust. All that is, is contained within the ilusionary path of it's duality. The idea of something which springs forth everything, yet none of it real and each of our paths lead all the way back to ultimate truth without distortions nor illusions.