Courting the maiden

[Jade]

Not sure you really understand my point. Don't you have crystals anyway? You look at those and feel sorry that you are partaking in the product of plunder or see that they are a portion of the earth that was meant and sought to be spread?

Yes, exactly my point. I don't have crystals because I see them as a source of income, I have crystals because I see them as useful tools and companions. In my analogy, the man was extracting oil for money and likely lacking compassion, but full of love.

com·pas·sion
noun
sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

The clock has struck the hour within one cycle. Humanity is not ready in it's choice yet is deprived of it's choice by higher density beings who do not desire to see further cycles happen for their own reasons. As long as there is a call that can justify their presence, they will do as they will while disregarding the vast majority of the inhabitants of this world. To me this quite heavily feels like plundering.

The cycles are cycles, they are made to be allowed to repeat as much as needed. But sure, these beings want to move on in their own cycle and as long as they feel loving about themselves and get to increase their own polarity, all is well and it cannot be called plundering

Okay, well, it seems to me like you are muddling the words that I was trying to use, and my point was to unmuddle them. This is the end of a major cycle. It's been 3x 25,000 years. The native earth peoples have been infringed upon by Yahweh, yes, and there's lots of weird stuff that other densities have done in the past of course, but we are a sub-logos so really it's the will of the Logos above us that gets overidden. These entities will still have time to learn and grow and you can go join them on their new planet to aid them further if you'd like (I'll see ya there . And again, many of them (not the earth natives but others) have already blown up their planets before and have come quite close to destroying this one again. This is not Gaia's will, so they will move to another planet and hopefully complete their cycles there (or not).

Do you consider the will of the bacteria upon your teeth when you brush them? Are you plundering them? Or are you actually protecting your teeth from being plundered? I don't know, this is rhetorical, feel free to comment.  I just consider the microbes that we house, which are much more numerous than our own cells, as our "sub-logoi".

This is like in any portion of evolution within this Octave, they answer what justifies their own desires. You can trust me that I do not find their ways to be nearly as loving as they are presented to be.

Okay, so you disagree with Ra's intentions and thus subsequently my intentions. That's cool. I'm still going to learn about the archetypes within the system as Ra intended them, personally. I've found immense value here. This thread and discussion is predicated on the concept that we are here to learn catalyst, and that by being aware we can use catalyst to help us learn "faster" and therefore help others learn "faster". I too am personally indifferent at the speed of harvest, but the other voices I hear are begging for the transition to be complete, so if I have the drive and desire to aid in this, I feel as if I've awakened to quite a valuable degree, and I want to refine that even further.

Reaching is not an alien concept to myself, just something I inherently don't have a need for.

I rather know what I am doing than mindlessly reach without much of a care for the consequences, while blinding myself to the own selfishness and hypocrisy of what I do. I think you seem to miss that what you can consider higher ways of love, to me may feel deeply as being without love. Just as you seem to feel that way about my own ways.

What Carla did or could've done matters not, if she had went into a negative time/space she would have come to love that she did and wish it to not have happened differently. That was my point.

I'm not missing your point about higher love, I'm trying to talk about the Transformation of the Mind which is about green-ray love. Yes, they are different. You are the one who seems unable to divorce these two concepts.

Yes, your point about Carla is that all finds itself and love in time, as is the way of the universe, we will all reunite with the Creator, time being an illusion we are already united. My point is that I believe we're here to experience the act of "getting by with a little help from our friends" and that these interactions are what brings a joyful quality to the life experience - mingling, interacting, giving and taking, asking and receiving. The Creator fractured itself to experience multiplicity.

More than saying I've been using the transformation of the mind as I please, which I am well aware of, I think I have mainly been trying to explain to you that you are using the transformation of the mind as you please while trying to blind yourself to that fact. Just as the way Ra has described using it is also but a whim. The archetype is more than what use you can make of it, it is what allows it to be used. You plunder nothing as long as you don't feel like you aren't plundering a thing, but like you disagree with what I can consider plundering to be, I also disagree with what you consider plundering to be and probably would find many things in your way of loving that I would consider myself to be plundering if I did.

It is possible to have different versions of plundering and courting but the point of this thread was to make an attempt to find common ground and not focus on difference necessarily. There is a huge point with the Transformation of the Mind that you must follow one path. You are telling me that I am doing it wrong because I'm not following both paths, or at least, that's my interpretation of how you are "using the Transformation of the Mind", when Ra says the Transformation can't be used until one principle governing use of the mind is released. I have to sacrifice certain ways of being of service to use the Transformation of the Mind, yes. That is my whole point.

You so often tell me that I seek to justify myself but what I see is that by denying the relative aspect of it, you justify your own self and ways. What I mean by not betraying myself is exactly what you have expressed about that you would never agree to eat meat even if it meant offering a green-ray STO service. You can only offer love as you can feel it and I don't expect myself to betray how I feel love to offer it as some other-selves think I should be offering it. This would most certainly be completely depolarizing and make me much more without love than with love.

Again, my point is that there is always a better way to be of service, and that is what the card is helping cultivate. Yes, you can express green-ray love by eating meat, I wasn't denying that, but I've moved past that experience and eating meat to express green-ray love would be "moving backwards towards plunder" as I've moved past towards courting. I can give green-ray love to McDonald's burgers, in fact I often do "bless" fast-food joints and lots of places in an attempt to alleviate the energy. My point is that the card is about the consistent attempts to do better in service. In the analogy, a maiden would rebuke you for improper courting, but the prostitute still provides. That's why the process is protracted. And I'm not saying that your subconcious will punish you or anything, it's hinting to the fact that each maiden is different, and often what you think it needs is not what it thinks it needs, so you have to uncover the riddle. Wisdom doesn't solve this interaction in the microcosm.

I also do not deny Ra explanations, I mainly try to see what they hint toward instead of dwelling into an image even Ra knows to be extremely insuffisient to describe what it seeks to hint toward. If you want to blind yourself to the fact that polarity has been included probably in close to each of my posts within this thread, feel free to.

I guess I feel, after reading the Ra material several times, that it is obvious to me that what Ra really wanted to communicate to Don was the archetypes. To Ra, this is the most undistorted way to teach people how to use their intuition to learn these things. Ra affectionately refrains "O Student" to Don, only when discussing the archetypes. This was Ra's real intent to communicate, IMO. It's lessons for third density schooling, the subtle balancing of catalyst and polarity. The lessons of dissolution and unity are later, but also still present in the archetypes. This one card that we have been discussing is about STO polarity.

I'll come back later upon this, how I feel about compassion is that you probably have compassion for things I have none just as I probably have compassion for other things you have none. Hence it is a relative emotion that is internalized differently by each based on one's experiences.

Our hearts simply have different focuses and care about different beings, and I don't think my love for this world falls behind your own.

I'm trying to cultivate compassion for everything, really. I'm not refusing to eat the hamburger because I don't have compassion for it. That would be like dumpster diving for dinner because I feel bad that all the food is going to waste. And some people do that and it's viable!! Kudos to them!! To me, wisdom is knowing which avenue of service is most fruitful in a situation. To me, serving by eating the burger is not my highest service in that moment. I understand your point is that everyone has a different "highest service" but my subsequent point is that the Transformation of the Mind is about letting go of ways that we serve to serve in more refined ways.

The reason I made a focus on wisdom is that to me a love that seeks not wisdom is a love that plunders, and while I get that there can be infinite of those who can be well with that and amass polarity, it does not mean I can. To me that would feel like plundering, it would feel like using others to experiment with love and amass polarity from it whatever unfolds.

I personally think that your definition of wisdom is not entirely what Ra talks about when they describe wisdom. I think knowing that we know nothing is a big part of being a Fool.

You spoke a lot of STO green ray love, yet all I see is that you limit something of infinite pontential to be experienced and expressed into something finite. Denying that someone could polarize positively by acting otherwise than you perceive love and denying also that someone could depolarize by acting on how you perceive love.

I'm just being honest that to me, you seem to be complicating a subject so that you can distort what we are talking about for your own gains. I am trying to limit STO love to exclude the types of manipulation and exploitation that are inherent in the STS path, yes. The STO path does have STS involved but we're trying to delineate which actions and energetic movements fall under which polarity, i.e. radiation vs. absorption. Yes, there is an umbrella over both and all should be accepted, but third density is about making Choices, choices that bring us subtly ever closer to unity, and not further from it.

The quotes I shared about Love from positive channelings are ones I believe give direction to what can be crystalized within the green ray. You even mocked words that were not even my own, but were instead an advice given by positive entities to us about the kind of Love we should be seeking. So while I can see beauty in desiring to crystalize one's heart into a channel unto a teenager's feeling, I end up wondering why there is resistance toward the idea of crystalizing the heart into a channel upon a higher vibration of Love.

I've shared many, many more quotes about this type of love than just likening it to a "teenager's feeling" - though what makes a teenager unable to feel to its fullest? It seems to me you are still judging this "courting" concept through the lens of Hollywood teen movies and pop songs. I've already said that society has distorted this concept and it seems to me that you are distorting it further. Sure, I've referenced the emotionality of the teenager in passing as one tenet of this card. What do you think the image of the child means in the Transformation of the Spirit?

You seem really angry with Ra (you've said it in so many words) and this whole concept seems to sit poorly with you. Honestly, I don't mind these discussions, but sometimes you get a little exasperated with me when I'm just trying to elucidate a concept through Ra's teachings that you have a disagreement with. You can say Ra disagrees with me too but I've yet to see many quotes from Ra in your posts, let alone discussion about any of the other archetypes or even this archetype in context. You shared some quotes about "The Big Love" from other channeled entities, which of course is also important, but I'm talking about the Transformation of the Mind, which is about green-ray love. If you want to share quotes back and forth about green-ray love, I'll do that all day and accept them as valid points in our conversation. I'm not "getting the bigger picture" because I'm literally trying to talk about 1/22 of the picture.

[Minyatur]

Yes, exactly my point. I don't have crystals because I see them as a source of income, I have crystals because I see them as useful tools and companions. In my analogy, the man was extracting oil for money and likely lacking compassion, but full of love.

com·pas·sion
noun
sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

Yet you bought them from those who extracted them for money?

Okay, well, it seems to me like you are muddling the words that I was trying to use, and my point was to unmuddle them. This is the end of a major cycle. It's been 3x 25,000 years. The native earth peoples have been infringed upon by Yahweh, yes, and there's lots of weird stuff that other densities have done in the past of course, but we are a sub-logos so really it's the will of the Logos above us that gets overidden. These entities will still have time to learn and grow and you can go join them on their new planet to aid them further if you'd like (I'll see ya there . And again, many of them (not the earth natives but others) have already blown up their planets before and have come quite close to destroying this one again. This is not Gaia's will, so they will move to another planet and hopefully complete their cycles there (or not).

I'm not sure why you speak of Gaia's will, I highly doubt Gaia has a desired outcome toward this, while you seem to see a prostitute I see a mother that both freely gives and resist depending on what her children needs. If she is blown up then she lets it happen out of love and will reform again into something new, I don't see how further cycles mean the earth being blown up, I could see that happen as a counter-measure to the forced harvest.

I think Gaia would be fine harvesting in any direction, just as repeating cycles. Like I said those who want to see the harvest happen are external to it and also forcefully make it happen.

Do you consider the will of the bacteria upon your teeth when you brush them? Are you plundering them? Or are you actually protecting your teeth from being plundered? I don't know, this is rhetorical, feel free to comment.  I just consider the microbes that we house, which are much more numerous than our own cells, as our "sub-logoi".

I agree our bodies are a world of their own. Each of us has the responsability of our inner world as we grow as co-creator just as mankind was given this place to grow as co-creator.

Okay, so you disagree with Ra's intentions and thus subsequently my intentions. That's cool. I'm still going to learn about the archetypes within the system as Ra intended them, personally. I've found immense value here. This thread and discussion is predicated on the concept that we are here to learn catalyst, and that by being aware we can use catalyst to help us learn "faster" and therefore help others learn "faster". I too am personally indifferent at the speed of harvest, but the other voices I hear are begging for the transition to be complete, so if I have the drive and desire to aid in this, I feel as if I've awakened to quite a valuable degree, and I want to refine that even further.

I don't disagree with this, I'd perhaps add that we hear the voices we tune ourselves to hear. Kinda what I meant by justification.

I'm not missing your point about higher love, I'm trying to talk about the Transformation of the Mind which is about green-ray love. Yes, they are different. You are the one who seems unable to divorce these two concepts.

I still think you can crystalize your heart into a channel unto those higher vibration of love.

Like I said I work on all my chakras and the heart is the one I've been working on most into by far.

It is possible to have different versions of plundering and courting but the point of this thread was to make an attempt to find common ground and not focus on difference necessarily. There is a huge point with the Transformation of the Mind that you must follow one path. You are telling me that I am doing it wrong because I'm not following both paths, or at least, that's my interpretation of how you are "using the Transformation of the Mind", when Ra says the Transformation can't be used until one principle governing use of the mind is released. I have to sacrifice certain ways of being of service to use the Transformation of the Mind, yes. That is my whole point.

I was not trying to make you follow both paths but expand what each path can be. I get how my examples seemed to
focused on doing what seem without love but the point was to find the ability to be able to perform them with love, or rather understanding that not everyone will find being loving in the same manner. My examples were not to always do them, they were more meant to say that if one finds a way to serve which one believes is always valid, then I don't see how it is all that different from plundering. My examples were meant to hint that even if an action is valid a 1000 times, the 1001th time can call for a different course of action because each moment has a different inherent underlying complexity but that to know this I believe requires to use the transformation of the mind, to be open that each moment is unique and although the mind perceives the same setting, the heart through the High Priestess can feel resistance on particular occasions toward doing the exact same deeds that are usually always well, and that to ignore this is somewhat to plunder in my view.

Again, my point is that there is always a better way to be of service, and that is what the card is helping cultivate. Yes, you can express green-ray love by eating meat, I wasn't denying that, but I've moved past that experience and eating meat to express green-ray love would be "moving backwards towards plunder" as I've moved past towards courting. I can give green-ray love to McDonald's burgers, in fact I often do "bless" fast-food joints and lots of places in an attempt to alleviate the energy. My point is that the card is about the consistent attempts to do better in service. In the analogy, a maiden would rebuke you for improper courting, but the prostitute still provides. That's why the process is protracted. And I'm not saying that your subconcious will punish you or anything, it's hinting to the fact that each maiden is different, and often what you think it needs is not what it thinks it needs, so you have to uncover the riddle. Wisdom doesn't solve this interaction in the microcosm.

My example was somewhat abtract, if your High Priestess would call you to do that then there should be a reason for you to. You can turn the McDonald example into simply being called to purchase one particular piece of meat you are called to (reincarnation of a past pet... anything) and rather than eating it, hold it into your hands into meditation to help heal that one particular entity you were drawn to.

Again, this was not an absolute example. Can happen in myriads of ways, someone can offer you one on the street and tell youl it'll be thrown if you don't take it. Then you have to chose between letting it rot to waste and taking in as part of yourself and part of the karma with you. Then again the point is not that you need to do this, just that openness to see love being present in many ways open oneself toward being called to more opportunities to serve.

I guess I feel, after reading the Ra material several times, that it is obvious to me that what Ra really wanted to communicate to Don was the archetypes. To Ra, this is the most undistorted way to teach people how to use their intuition to learn these things. Ra affectionately refrains "O Student" to Don, only when discussing the archetypes. This was Ra's real intent to communicate, IMO. It's lessons for third density schooling, the subtle balancing of catalyst and polarity. The lessons of dissolution and unity are later, but also still present in the archetypes. This one card that we have been discussing is about STO polarity.

Surely but this does not deny that Ra probably had so much more to teach about each card than what was passed on and expressed this process of study to be highly individual if I remember well.

I never tried to make it not about the STO polarity. More that the way and path for me to find STO within myself can differ than what you found for yourself. I didn't resonate with courting but did more with the notion of plundering which is to be let go of, I may have seen it as more abstract than you did because I am aware there is no actual plundering ever taking place and that it is more of a matter of personal feelings.

I'm trying to cultivate compassion for everything, really. I'm not refusing to eat the hamburger because I don't have compassion for it. That would be like dumpster diving for dinner because I feel bad that all the food is going to waste. And some people do that and it's viable!! Kudos to them!! To me, wisdom is knowing which avenue of service is most fruitful in a situation. To me, serving by eating the burger is not my highest service in that moment. I understand your point is that everyone has a different "highest service" but my subsequent point is that the Transformation of the Mind is about letting go of ways that we serve to serve in more refined ways.

Like I said above, this was more about one particular occasion you would feel highly called to do this (heart) and that your mind (intellectualizing) is your resistance toward it.

With how you are to make fruitful examples, I need the tables to be turned in a way which is much less intuitive. The point was still that you hear a call.

I personally think that your definition of wisdom is not entirely what Ra talks about when they describe wisdom. I think knowing that we know nothing is a big part of being a Fool.

When Ra spoke of their own 3D experience, they said that from a standpoint of wisdom they had an overabundance of love, which caused two positive wanderers to walk the STS path upon their world as to offer an alternative to those who did not fit on this strictly compassion mindset. To me that means that higher positive intent found focus upon the negative because it was what their world required most. It was not as they intended, but I still think it is the purity of their initial intent that lead them to serve as they did.

About the fool, as I became more aware I started to perceive why I have been acting as I had up until now, the unconscious reasons to what I was doing. I saw some say that becoming aware for example is to let go of things like eating meat that only takes place because of being unaware, yet I think that becoming even more aware for those would be to become aware of the positive intent which set them to initially eat meat while wondering why it could have been seen as useful and valuable by the them which was most conscious.

I'm just being honest that to me, you seem to be complicating a subject so that you can distort what we are talking about for your own gains. I am trying to limit STO love to exclude the types of manipulation and exploitation that are inherent in the STS path, yes. The STO path does have STS involved but we're trying to delineate which actions and energetic movements fall under which polarity, i.e. radiation vs. absorption. Yes, there is an umbrella over both and all should be accepted, but third density is about making Choices, choices that bring us subtly ever closer to unity, and not further from it.

I am well at peace with myself and don't need justification, I have been trying to express my points while not making this about myself because I did not think it was about myself, yet it seem to have become unevitable. I am well aware I am working from how I feel things and that trying to work from how another feels is unhelpful.

While I get that I give tool of justification, I believe it is your duty (edit: fate, else it goes against my signature) to find justification to what others do, to allow yourself to see the underlying love in each and every of their action if you truly seek to find love within yourself. So while you can feel that you plunder in acting a certain way, I believe you will find more love within yourself by seeing that others do not truly ever plunder and that there is beauty in what they do always. Whatever we say, we speak of love and light and unity each time we speak of others.

Like I said in another thread, I believe each path is the shadow self/light self of the other path. As such STS is the hidden hypocrisy and selfishness of the STO path made apparent, just as STO is the hidden innocence and beauty of the STS path made apparent. None truly containing either any more than the other and I believe this does matter as I highly doubt your soul has an understanding of polarity at the level of 3D native and that to truly unveil yourself is to unveil that within yourself you most likely already are very aware of both polarities being a paradox and that you perhaps have already solved within yourself from before incarnating. And if this is so, then you can extend much further and deeper what it can mean for yourself to be loving in greater ways.

I think there is quite a lot of transformation of the mind in this, and that to constantly refine what it means to be loving is part of making the choice to be loving.

I've shared many, many more quotes about this type of love than just likening it to a "teenager's feeling" - though what makes a teenager unable to feel to its fullest? It seems to me you are still judging this "courting" concept through the lens of Hollywood teen movies and pop songs. I've already said that society has distorted this concept and it seems to me that you are distorting it further. Sure, I've referenced the emotionality of the teenager in passing as one tenet of this card. What do you think the image of the child means in the Transformation of the Spirit?

I meant more that there is a point those quotes tells us to not seek love in how it has been romantizied by our poets and such.

By a child you mean the first one of the 3 figures that represent an elevation?

You seem really angry with Ra (you've said it in so many words) and this whole concept seems to sit poorly with you. Honestly, I don't mind these discussions, but sometimes you get a little exasperated with me when I'm just trying to elucidate a concept through Ra's teachings that you have a disagreement with. You can say Ra disagrees with me too but I've yet to see many quotes from Ra in your posts, let alone discussion about any of the other archetypes or even this archetype in context. You shared some quotes about "The Big Love" from other channeled entities, which of course is also important, but I'm talking about the Transformation of the Mind, which is about green-ray love. If you want to share quotes back and forth about green-ray love, I'll do that all day and accept them as valid points in our conversation. I'm not "getting the bigger picture" because I'm literally trying to talk about 1/22 of the picture.

I don't disagree with Ra's teachings really, I simply don't see it as absolute. Ra speaks of a tool by describing a way of using it.

As I see things I have been working from the same quotes you did with different interpretations. l really don't know either why you feel like reducing courting/plundering to a polarized (positive/negative) relationship takes away everything the image seeks to teach.

Ra does not govern this archetype nor is it their own, they can see a purpose to it which can differentiate in others, and both ways wouldn't negate the archetype nor talk about something unrelated to it.

[Minyatur]

I really don't think I haven't resonated with Ra's teaching like it may seem from this discussion. It did speak to me a lot and opened me to the archetype and everything I have been saying is still based on this teaching.

What I did not resonate with is that "courting" is a focus that will help me to be positive. Anyway, you made it clear that to you the term meant more than how I had interpreted it and I did not really disagree on how you further explained it other that I think it's just being positive. If I scratch a dog belly I don't think to myself that I am courting the dog... anyway...

Since courting seemed to be romanticized of a word, I thought the quotes I shared could be helpful in explaining why I think this word is not the best word to describe a loving focus upon others and interactions with them.

[Jade]

Yet you bought them from those who extracted them for money?

Indeed. And I still drive a car that requires gasoline, which is rarely extracted with "compassion". As I've mentioned, it's a series of doing better than before. I am frugal with gasoline, instead of driving a hummer, I drive a Kia that gets 30+ MPH. And you're right, I probably should be more aware when I purchase stones. Luckily, I live somewhere where I can purchase "locally harvested" minerals! That's a good one to start working towards - buying from the small-time miners who do it out of love for having a "job" in nature where they do understand the courtship dance involved, and not just to make a quick buck. Thanks for helping me with that one.

I'm not sure why you speak of Gaia's will, I highly doubt Gaia has a desired outcome toward this, while you seem to see a prostitute I see a mother that both freely gives and resist depending on what her children needs. If she is blown up then she lets it happen out of love and will reform again into something new, I don't see how further cycles mean the earth being blown up, I could see that happen as a counter-measure to the forced harvest.

I think Gaia would be fine harvesting in any direction, just as repeating cycles. Like I said those who want to see the harvest happen are external to it and also forcefully make it happen.

I'm just quoting other channeled materials, including Ra, which state that Gaia is moving into 4D+. I'm assuming this is her will. I speak of it because it does matter. Again, Carla could have harvested 6D negative and learned all those lessons, just as Gaia could let herself be blown up. You keep using the word prostitute as if it were a dirty word, and I assure you that I do not think lowly of anything that prostitutes itself, which is one of your problems with this analogy. It isn't about judging the prostitute, it's about attempting to refrain from the act of plunder - and Gaia being plundered to disintegration would indeed make her the prostitute in the analogy, and us humans receiving that which is "without great virtue".

What do you take of the word "virtue" as Ra describes it in the archetype?

I agree our bodies are a world of their own. Each of us has the responsability of our inner world as we grow as co-creator just as mankind was given this place to grow as co-creator.

Though you scoff at the idea of considering Gaia's will? I'm almost certain that the cells in my "world", including those that are independent lifeforms, consider my will.

76.20 Questioner: What was the form of disease, and why did this exist at beginning third density?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, that which you speak of as disease is a functional portion of the body complex which offers the body complex the opportunity to cease viability. This is a desirable body complex function. The second portion of the answer has to do with second-density other-selves of a microscopic, as you would call it, size which have in some forms long existed and perform their service by aiding the physical body complex in its function of ceasing viability at the appropriate space/time.

I still think you can crystalize your heart into a channel unto those higher vibration of love.

Like I said I work on all my chakras and the heart is the one I've been working on most into by far.

That's certainly possible, but this card is especially, specifically, about the green-ray. Not higher, balanced love, but polarized love.

I was not trying to make you follow both paths but expand what each path can be. I get how my examples seemed to

focused on doing what seem without love but the point was to find the ability to be able to perform them with love, or rather understanding that not everyone will find being loving in the same manner. My examples were not to always do them, they were more meant to say that if one finds a way to serve which one believes is always valid, then I don't see how it is all that different from plundering. My examples were meant to hint that even if an action is valid a 1000 times, the 1001th time can call for a different course of action because each moment has a different inherent underlying complexity but that to know this I believe requires to use the transformation of the mind, to be open that each moment is unique and although the mind perceives the same setting, the heart through the High Priestess can feel resistance on particular occasions toward doing the exact same deeds that are usually always well, and that to ignore this is somewhat to plunder in my view.

That's why we disagree. In my analogy, the prostitute is calling to you - her face is painted, her leg is sticking out, she beckons like a siren to a sailor. This is what Ra means when he says "Both the deep mind and the virginal mind await the reaching" - you must LET GO of one of the hands of the priestess - yes, indeed, ignore her wishes. This can be your interpretation of "plunder" but this is my interpretation of the Lovers card per Ra. We are in disagreement.

My example was somewhat abtract, if your High Priestess would call you to do that then there should be a reason for you to. You can turn the McDonald example into simply being called to purchase one particular piece of meat you are called to (reincarnation of a past pet... anything) and rather than eating it, hold it into your hands into meditation to help heal that one particular entity you were drawn to.

Again, this was not an absolute example. Can happen in myriads of ways, someone can offer you one on the street and tell youl it'll be thrown if you don't take it. Then you have to chose between letting it rot to waste and taking in as part of yourself and part of the karma with you. Then again the point is not that you need to do this, just that openness to see love being present in many ways open oneself toward being called to more opportunities to serve.

Again, refer to my previous analogy and quote from Ra. The prostitute is still asking for service. You must let her hand go for the transformation to occur.

Surely but this does not deny that Ra probably had so much more to teach about each card than what was passed on and expressed this process of study to be highly individual if I remember well.

I never tried to make it not about the STO polarity. More that the way and path for me to find STO within myself can differ than what you found for yourself. I didn't resonate with courting but did more with the notion of plundering which is to be let go of, I may have seen it as more abstract than you did because I am aware there is no actual plundering ever taking place and that it is more of a matter of personal feelings.

What makes you think that I'm being 100% literal? I've discussed the ways that I myself, "plunder". I can think of others. Sometimes, I meditate for "utility", which frustrates me on both ends. I also smoke much more marijuana than I would be if I were "courting" it. These are pretty big "infractions" in my book and I'm exploring ways to correct them. It's your own personal problem with the idea that you could possibly be plundering something, it seems, as you've yet to admit that you think you take advantage of anything's resource. Again, the prostitute WANTS to be "plundered", or taken advantage of for her resources - though, there is still an energy exchange. I am not being literal. As you've said, nothing is actually being -plundered-, it is just give-and-take - this is the Transformation of the MIND, an internal process that is indeed wholly personal. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and something has to be abandoned.

Like I said above, this was more about one particular occasion you would feel highly called to do this (heart) and that your mind (intellectualizing) is your resistance toward it.

With how you are to make fruitful examples, I need the tables to be turned in a way which is much less intuitive. The point was still that you hear a call.

And again, the point is that the prostitute calls as well, you must let her go, because it is the compassionate thing to do.

When Ra spoke of their own 3D experience, they said that from a standpoint of wisdom they had an overabundance of love, which caused two positive wanderers to walk the STS path upon their world as to offer an alternative to those who did not fit on this strictly compassion mindset. To me that means that higher positive intent found focus upon the negative because it was what their world required most. It was not as they intended, but I still think it is the purity of their initial intent that lead them to serve as they did.

And, Ra had a relatively successful third density experience in spite of it all - they just came and muddled with ours in their eagerness to serve. Are you mad at them? Do you wish they hadn't?

About the fool, as I became more aware I started to perceive why I have been acting as I had up until now, the unconscious reasons to what I was doing. I saw some say that becoming aware for example is to let go of things like eating meat that only takes place because of being unaware, yet I think that becoming even more aware for those would be to become aware of the positive intent which set them to initially eat meat while wondering why it could have been seen as useful and valuable by the them which was most conscious.

Okay, yes, but what you are describing are what I would call 4th/5th density lessons, not 3rd/4th. The Fool isn't here to get wiser, the Fool is here to fall in love. Sorry, that's just the way it is. I mean, obviously you still have freedom to do what you please within all realms in the infinite creation, but the archetypical cycle is about the 3rd density experience of opening/denying the heart chakra - the Fool being Foolish and falling in love. Wanderers being foolish to come help aid the planet.

12.28 Questioner: Are most of these from the fourth density? What density do they come from?

Ra: I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them, are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment. The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom from which it had incarnated to aid the destruction.

While I get that I give tool of justification, I believe it is your duty (edit: fate, else it goes against my signature) to find justification to what others do, to allow yourself to see the underlying love in each and every of their action if you truly seek to find love within yourself. So while you can feel that you plunder in acting a certain way, I believe you will find more love within yourself by seeing that others do not truly ever plunder and that there is beauty in what they do always. Whatever we say, we speak of love and light and unity each time we speak of others.

Yes, again you speak of the "higher love" where no one is plundered because all wills are known. But in 3rd density, with the veil, and confusion, this isn't as easy as you make it sound. Wisdom doesn't help prevent plunder, compassion does.

Like I said in another thread, I believe each path is the shadow self/light self of the other path. As such STS is the hidden hypocrisy and selfishness of the STO path made apparent, just as STO is the hidden innocence and beauty of the STS path made apparent. None truly containing either any more than the other and I believe this does matter as I highly doubt your soul has an understanding of polarity at the level of 3D native and that to truly unveil yourself is to unveil that within yourself you most likely already are very aware of both polarities being a paradox and that you perhaps have already solved within yourself from before incarnating. And if this is so, then you can extend much further and deeper what it can mean for yourself to be loving in greater ways.

Sigh.... of course I understand these things, Minya. I've told you this. I'm not trying to talk about the greater love and the resolution of the paradox here in this thread, I'm talking about the archetype 6. I understand that there is no judgement, there is no real "bad", BUT, Ra gave us these tools to refine our consciousness with polarity in the context of 3rd density incarnation. You keep scoffing as if this is a meaningless exercise but I assure you the the whole of the archetypes are not a meaningless exercise to be learned nor are they yours to be rewritten on a whim. You are absolutely free to experience your own expression, but to act as if you are above the archetypical system of the Logos as offered by Ra seems quite lofty.

I have been doing nothing but attempt to discuss how we can learn to be more loving in greater ways, through the transformation of the mind. I do think that compassion and the STO path does lead to a higher/more balanced love but this is not the discussion I am attempting to engage in at this moment. It's about polarity.

I meant more that there is a point those quotes tells us to not seek love in how it has been romantizied by our poets and such.

By a child you mean the first one of the 3 figures that represent an elevation?

I don't think it was saying not to seek that love, but that there was a "greater love", the love you are talking about, the second distortion, the creative principle of Love. This is the balanced, non-judging, open, infinite love you are talking about, but again, I'm trying to talk about a slightly lesser but still applicable love, that of the green-ray.

That's an interesting way to describe it. I always saw the figures responding to the call of the trumpeter, and the child as the final one to emerge from the sarcophagus.

As I see things I have been working from the same quotes you did with different interpretations. l really don't know either why you feel like reducing courting/plundering to a polarized (positive/negative) relationship takes away everything the image seeks to teach.

It's not reducing it to polarity that I have a problem with in your interpretation, it's the fact that you deny that you must sacrifice certain actions for a transformation to occur, and you are telling me that BECAUSE I sacrifice actions I'm avoiding the transformation. You think the proper course to using the transformation is to give in to every whim of the High Priestess. I'm saying that the archetype says that you have to discern certain whims to stop feeding in to.

I also do not think you have taken many of the Ra quotes on this archetype into consideration, especially since you keep arguing with these words as if they were mine when they are not. I assure you, semantics mean much less to me than the average verbose forum poster. I am able to interchange other analogies/words, but they have to retain their meaning in the context of the original analogy. I'm not the one who can't work with Ra's analogy, so it's not up to me to rewrite the book (though I'm apparently trying).

It is also a bit frustrating to me when I ask you to discuss other concepts in the card to help elucidate the differences in our views and you say things like "I'll come back to that later." - Ra says the first step to learning the archetypes is to look at the symbols and decide what they mean to you, personally. You reject the symbols, so how have you practiced this study?

Where in this card does the symbolism say "This card isn't about polarity, it's about higher love" - a few have said the closed eyes of the male, but the fact is, eyes closed or not, the male cannot -move- without releasing a hand. I'm really curious to know what you think the triangles mean in the context of seeking unpolarized love, and the bound arms.

The "higher love" that you are speaking of, IMO, is represented by the Significator of the Spirit - there, there is one male and one female, holding hands, eyes open, looking at each other, with the sun behind them. No crossed arms, in fact, no desire to go anywhere but stay in their circle, gazing at each other. I think this is the card you are talking about/resonating with.

If I scratch a dog belly I don't think to myself that I am courting the dog... anyway...

Since courting seemed to be romanticized of a word, I thought the quotes I shared could be helpful in explaining why I think this word is not the best word to describe a loving focus upon others and interactions with them.

Here I would like to again note that it is not I that has extrapolated the concept of courting to mean "a means to an end that is literal sex". Of course you aren't trying to have sex with the dog, but you are showing it affection, compassion, adoration etc. These other words that I was using that you also seemed to have a problem with in associating with this card.

[Minyatur]

Yet you bought them from those who extracted them for money?

Indeed. And I still drive a car that requires gasoline, which is rarely extracted with "compassion". As I've mentioned, it's a series of doing better than before. I am frugal with gasoline, instead of driving a hummer, I drive a Kia that gets 30+ MPH. And you're right, I probably should be more aware when I purchase stones. Luckily, I live somewhere where I can purchase "locally harvested" minerals! That's a good one to start working towards - buying from the small-time miners who do it out of love for having a "job" in nature where they do understand the courtship dance involved, and not just to make a quick buck. Thanks for helping me with that one.

I can provide more help. You smoke weed? Well you could vaporize it instead of smoking it which would allow chemicals that vaporize at a lower temperatures to not be destroyed by the flame and provide a different high. Imo, the vaporizer ends up paying for itself because in my case it really made me lower my consumption a whole lot, guess that would depend on the kind you get though.

I'm not sure why you speak of Gaia's will, I highly doubt Gaia has a desired outcome toward this, while you seem to see a prostitute I see a mother that both freely gives and resist depending on what her children needs. If she is blown up then she lets it happen out of love and will reform again into something new, I don't see how further cycles mean the earth being blown up, I could see that happen as a counter-measure to the forced harvest.

I think Gaia would be fine harvesting in any direction, just as repeating cycles. Like I said those who want to see the harvest happen are external to it and also forcefully make it happen.

I'm just quoting other channeled materials, including Ra, which state that Gaia is moving into 4D+. I'm assuming this is her will. I speak of it because it does matter. Again, Carla could have harvested 6D negative and learned all those lessons, just as Gaia could let herself be blown up. You keep using the word prostitute as if it were a dirty word, and I assure you that I do not think lowly of anything that prostitutes itself, which is one of your problems with this analogy. It isn't about judging the prostitute, it's about attempting to refrain from the act of plunder - and Gaia being plundered to disintegration would indeed make her the prostitute in the analogy, and us humans receiving that which is "without great virtue".

What do you take of the word "virtue" as Ra describes it in the archetype?

Well I am under the understanding that these Logos allow themselves to evolve through what inhabits them. As such Gaia is moving into 4D because she is made to move into 4D. I think the channelings make it clear that if there was no wanderer incarnating, then the Gaia would not shift into 4D and the harvest would miss and the cycle repeat. Also it seems that the confederation is not able to increase the planet's polarity much without incarnating. That is because from outside of it they need to respect the free will of it's inhabits to send in their vibration, whereas incarnating allows them to bypass this and increase the planet's polarity to a harvestable state.

Anyway my point about this is not to thoroughly discuss it, this is just an example of what can seem positive to many yet feels deeply like plundering to my soul and this is certainly not because I want this see this world harvest STS either.

About virtue, like everything I've been saying, it is relative to yourself. You can feel virtuous in your ways and that you wouldn't be in another's ways, yet that other person vsn feel virtuous in it's ways and wouldn't feel so with your ways. In my case I spoke of the positive traits I seek to hone in previous posts, which would be what I'd consider myself to be virtuous in honing within myself.

I agree our bodies are a world of their own. Each of us has the responsability of our inner world as we grow as co-creator just as mankind was given this place to grow as co-creator.

Though you scoff at the idea of considering Gaia's will? I'm almost certain that the cells in my "world", including those that are independent lifeforms, consider my will.

I think the will of Gaia is to allow what grows within itself to grow as this was the purpose she was formed. 3D is the density of self-awareness, this is a stage for mankind to develop self-awareness as co-creator. Gaia does give them the karma they build for themselves, not as revenge but as a teaching tool.

I still think you can crystalize your heart into a channel unto those higher vibration of love.

Like I said I work on all my chakras and the heart is the one I've been working on most into by far.

That's certainly possible, but this card is especially, specifically, about the green-ray. Not higher, balanced love, but polarized love.

Yeah I still was writing about the green-ray. Higher, balanced love is still polarized green-ray.

I was not trying to make you follow both paths but expand what each path can be. I get how my examples seemed to

focused on doing what seem without love but the point was to find the ability to be able to perform them with love, or rather understanding that not everyone will find being loving in the same manner. My examples were not to always do them, they were more meant to say that if one finds a way to serve which one believes is always valid, then I don't see how it is all that different from plundering. My examples were meant to hint that even if an action is valid a 1000 times, the 1001th time can call for a different course of action because each moment has a different inherent underlying complexity but that to know this I believe requires to use the transformation of the mind, to be open that each moment is unique and although the mind perceives the same setting, the heart through the High Priestess can feel resistance on particular occasions toward doing the exact same deeds that are usually always well, and that to ignore this is somewhat to plunder in my view.

That's why we disagree. In my analogy, the prostitute is calling to you - her face is painted, her leg is sticking out, she beckons like a siren to a sailor. This is what Ra means when he says "Both the deep mind and the virginal mind await the reaching" - you must LET GO of one of the hands of the priestess - yes, indeed, ignore her wishes. This can be your interpretation of "plunder" but this is my interpretation of the Lovers card per Ra. We are in disagreement.

I think you miss that I haven't been trying to tell you that you should plunder anything but that you can still meddle with what you consider prostitutes. They probably need more love than a virginal maiden that has never been wronged.

My example was somewhat abtract, if your High Priestess would call you to do that then there should be a reason for you to. You can turn the McDonald example into simply being called to purchase one particular piece of meat you are called to (reincarnation of a past pet... anything) and rather than eating it, hold it into your hands into meditation to help heal that one particular entity you were drawn to.

Again, this was not an absolute example. Can happen in myriads of ways, someone can offer you one on the street and tell youl it'll be thrown if you don't take it. Then you have to chose between letting it rot to waste and taking in as part of yourself and part of the karma with you. Then again the point is not that you need to do this, just that openness to see love being present in many ways open oneself toward being called to more opportunities to serve.

Again, refer to my previous analogy and quote from Ra. The prostitute is still asking for service. You must let her hand go for the transformation to occur.

Ever thought that a prostitute can be courted? You're not plundering because you give love to something that has been plundered.

Surely but this does not deny that Ra probably had so much more to teach about each card than what was passed on and expressed this process of study to be highly individual if I remember well.

I never tried to make it not about the STO polarity. More that the way and path for me to find STO within myself can differ than what you found for yourself. I didn't resonate with courting but did more with the notion of plundering which is to be let go of, I may have seen it as more abstract than you did because I am aware there is no actual plundering ever taking place and that it is more of a matter of personal feelings.

What makes you think that I'm being 100% literal? I've discussed the ways that I myself, "plunder". I can think of others. Sometimes, I meditate for "utility", which frustrates me on both ends. I also smoke much more marijuana than I would be if I were "courting" it. These are pretty big "infractions" in my book and I'm exploring ways to correct them. It's your own personal problem with the idea that you could possibly be plundering something, it seems, as you've yet to admit that you think you take advantage of anything's resource. Again, the prostitute WANTS to be "plundered", or taken advantage of for her resources - though, there is still an energy exchange. I am not being literal. As you've said, nothing is actually being -plundered-, it is just give-and-take - this is the Transformation of the MIND, an internal process that is indeed wholly personal. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and something has to be abandoned.

Like you said it's my own personal problem to deal with how I feel about things and pursue my path upon my ever changing self, which is why I don't see much of a point to write it out because I know what applies to me won't necessarily apply to others.

Like you said there's no plundering, so to use the transformation of the mind I use my own feedback of my own experience and if I were making choices as if I felt like someone else then it wouldn't allow me to polarize in any direction.

Like I said above, this was more about one particular occasion you would feel highly called to do this (heart) and that your mind (intellectualizing) is your resistance toward it.

With how you are to make fruitful examples, I need the tables to be turned in a way which is much less intuitive. The point was still that you hear a call.

And again, the point is that the prostitute calls as well, you must let her go, because it is the compassionate thing to do.

My example still wasn't about plundering but offering what is required by other-self in a loving way. And again, can you court a prostitute?

When Ra spoke of their own 3D experience, they said that from a standpoint of wisdom they had an overabundance of love, which caused two positive wanderers to walk the STS path upon their world as to offer an alternative to those who did not fit on this strictly compassion mindset. To me that means that higher positive intent found focus upon the negative because it was what their world required most. It was not as they intended, but I still think it is the purity of their initial intent that lead them to serve as they did.

And, Ra had a relatively successful third density experience in spite of it all - they just came and muddled with ours in their eagerness to serve. Are you mad at them? Do you wish they hadn't?

Just like STS entities, they need to use others to advance their own evolution.

More than Ra, it is the brothers and sisters of sorrow that I feel like conquer worlds and worlds for selfish reasons while using selected others as a pretext to do so. That they do this to learn lessons they constantly avoid learning and have no desire to learn, they want to dwell in a positive intent they avoid questioning further to not shake the light they dwell within. I do think past a certain point, this becomes plundering because there is a lack of desire to better their ways of service and move forward.

I do find the purity of their intent quite beautiful, but their unwillingness to learn and desire their to blind themselves to the inherent selfishness of what they do however many times they repeat it again and again, does give me mixed feelings. I still believe most of those of Ra don't do this.

About the fool, as I became more aware I started to perceive why I have been acting as I had up until now, the unconscious reasons to what I was doing. I saw some say that becoming aware for example is to let go of things like eating meat that only takes place because of being unaware, yet I think that becoming even more aware for those would be to become aware of the positive intent which set them to initially eat meat while wondering why it could have been seen as useful and valuable by the them which was most conscious.

Okay, yes, but what you are describing are what I would call 4th/5th density lessons, not 3rd/4th. The Fool isn't here to get wiser, the Fool is here to fall in love. Sorry, that's just the way it is. I mean, obviously you still have freedom to do what you please within all realms in the infinite creation, but the archetypical cycle is about the 3rd density experience of opening/denying the heart chakra - the Fool being Foolish and falling in love. Wanderers being foolish to come help aid the planet.

Like I said, we can come here for myriads of reasons. I am quite fond of 3D and it's veil.

I don't deny that aspect of 3D either, everything being polarized you still need to deal with polarity in whatever you do.

12.28 Questioner: Are most of these from the fourth density? What density do they come from?

Ra: I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them, are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment. The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom from which it had incarnated to aid the destruction.

While I get that I give tool of justification, I believe it is your duty (edit: fate, else it goes against my signature) to find justification to what others do, to allow yourself to see the underlying love in each and every of their action if you truly seek to find love within yourself. So while you can feel that you plunder in acting a certain way, I believe you will find more love within yourself by seeing that others do not truly ever plunder and that there is beauty in what they do always. Whatever we say, we speak of love and light and unity each time we speak of others.

Yes, again you speak of the "higher love" where no one is plundered because all wills are known. But in 3rd density, with the veil, and confusion, this isn't as easy as you make it sound. Wisdom doesn't help prevent plunder, compassion does.

Well if you want to not brush away the veil that is in your face even as you get more and more aware of it, would this not hint toward a certain unwillingness toward something?

Like I said in another thread, I believe each path is the shadow self/light self of the other path. As such STS is the hidden hypocrisy and selfishness of the STO path made apparent, just as STO is the hidden innocence and beauty of the STS path made apparent. None truly containing either any more than the other and I believe this does matter as I highly doubt your soul has an understanding of polarity at the level of 3D native and that to truly unveil yourself is to unveil that within yourself you most likely already are very aware of both polarities being a paradox and that you perhaps have already solved within yourself from before incarnating. And if this is so, then you can extend much further and deeper what it can mean for yourself to be loving in greater ways.

Sigh.... of course I understand these things, Minya. I've told you this. I'm not trying to talk about the greater love and the resolution of the paradox here in this thread, I'm talking about the archetype 6. I understand that there is no judgement, there is no real "bad", BUT, Ra gave us these tools to refine our consciousness with polarity in the context of 3rd density incarnation. You keep scoffing as if this is a meaningless exercise but I assure you the the whole of the archetypes are not a meaningless exercise to be learned nor are they yours to be rewritten on a whim. You are absolutely free to experience your own expression, but to act as if you are above the archetypical system of the Logos as offered by Ra seems quite lofty.

I have been doing nothing but attempt to discuss how we can learn to be more loving in greater ways, through the transformation of the mind. I do think that compassion and the STO path does lead to a higher/more balanced love but this is not the discussion I am attempting to engage in at this moment. It's about polarity.

Becoming aware of these things does have an impact on how you will feel about things and in turn on your polarity. If you peel off your veil you can't bound yourself to remain as you were before and here again there is an act of letting you as you've been saying yourself. To open yourself to higher ways known as known to your soul, you need to acknowledge that within yourself you know better and must make a choice to open yourself to this inner experience which contains so much more than a single lifetime, you need to let go of your ways of service to perceive that you have a greater potential within yourself and that unwillingness to connect to this potential that you hold and which is within your reach, also can be considered plundering, because you won't seek to offer the best you can offer and make a choice to dwell in a lesser state than you can reach.

I don't think any of this is unrelated to the archetype. Just like you say you can move on to ways that are without plunder, this doesn't mean that it stops there on the first basic level and that you can't do more and more. Like I said there are degrees of awareness which allow you to perceive much more than your conscious mind can perceive, and this awareness can make you act differently than you used to if you want to remain as loving and with the same positive intent in what you do.

I don't disagree with what you've been saying, what I disagree with is that what I've been saying is unrelated to it.

I meant more that there is a point those quotes tells us to not seek love in how it has been romantizied by our poets and such.

By a child you mean the first one of the 3 figures that represent an elevation?

I don't think it was saying not to seek that love, but that there was a "greater love", the love you are talking about, the second distortion, the creative principle of Love. This is the balanced, non-judging, open, infinite love you are talking about, but again, I'm trying to talk about a slightly lesser but still applicable love, that of the green-ray.

That's an interesting way to describe it. I always saw the figures responding to the call of the trumpeter, and the child as the final one to emerge from the sarcophagus.

While I think the creator basically is an eternal child, since the card is about transformation should not the movement reflect the transformation of one? I see it as symbolizing growth.

As I see things I have been working from the same quotes you did with different interpretations. l really don't know either why you feel like reducing courting/plundering to a polarized (positive/negative) relationship takes away everything the image seeks to teach.

It's not reducing it to polarity that I have a problem with in your interpretation, it's the fact that you deny that you must sacrifice certain actions for a transformation to occur, and you are telling me that BECAUSE I sacrifice actions I'm avoiding the transformation. You think the proper course to using the transformation is to give in to every whim of the High Priestess. I'm saying that the archetype says that you have to discern certain whims to stop feeding in to.

I also do not think you have taken many of the Ra quotes on this archetype into consideration, especially since you keep arguing with these words as if they were mine when they are not. I assure you, semantics mean much less to me than the average verbose forum poster. I am able to interchange other analogies/words, but they have to retain their meaning in the context of the original analogy. I'm not the one who can't work with Ra's analogy, so it's not up to me to rewrite the book (though I'm apparently trying).

It is also a bit frustrating to me when I ask you to discuss other concepts in the card to help elucidate the differences in our views and you say things like "I'll come back to that later." - Ra says the first step to learning the archetypes is to look at the symbols and decide what they mean to you, personally. You reject the symbols, so how have you practiced this study?

Where in this card does the symbolism say "This card isn't about polarity, it's about higher love" - a few have said the closed eyes of the male, but the fact is, eyes closed or not, the male cannot -move- without releasing a hand. I'm really curious to know what you think the triangles mean in the context of seeking unpolarized love, and the bound arms.

The "higher love" that you are speaking of, IMO, is represented by the Significator of the Spirit - there, there is one male and one female, holding hands, eyes open, looking at each other, with the sun behind them. No crossed arms, in fact, no desire to go anywhere but stay in their circle, gazing at each other. I think this is the card you are talking about/resonating with.

I'll just state again that all my posts spoke of polarity. I think you miss that your understanding of yourself and the world that surrounds you has a great impact on your polarity and how you will apply it to maintain/increase it, which might be why you see it as unrelated. Much like I said just above, if you want to disconnect yourself from both higher ways and higher love which you know of, it makes me question what it means to you to have positive intent.

I did not reject the symbolism of the card, all I've been saying is that I think the word "courting" was a stupid way to state the idea. Just a personal preference. I still think the card is quite good. And while I agree with the symbolism of the card, I still think you want to restrict the scope it can contain and apply to. About the triangles, I do see it as you spoke of it and I do think I have expressed that a few times already although indirectly.

I never spoke of attaining unpolarized love, what I say is that you can extend positively polarized love to infinite potential as long as you are able to distill it within yourself as such.

If I scratch a dog belly I don't think to myself that I am courting the dog... anyway...

Since courting seemed to be romanticized of a word, I thought the quotes I shared could be helpful in explaining why I think this word is not the best word to describe a loving focus upon others and interactions with them.

Here I would like to again note that it is not I that has extrapolated the concept of courting to mean "a means to an end that is literal sex". Of course you aren't trying to have sex with the dog, but you are showing it affection, compassion, adoration etc. These other words that I was using that you also seemed to have a problem with in associating with this card.

I'm not talking about sex... I'm not courting the dog because I am not seeking anything from it but am simply sharing a moment with it. I already said to me courting implies trying to win something.

I did not have a problem with the other words.

[Minyatur]

Btw, about the vaporizer idea, I hadn't seen what you said later in your post so I guess this makes it a sync.

It really made me reduce my consumption a whole lot because you get really high with little and can vape on not much for quite a while. Got one at same time I stopped cigarettes and desired to cut smoke altogether since I was stopping them.

---

Speaking of cigarettes made me think, before letting go of something I still think it is useful to understand why it was part of your experience, can be done afterward too. I made the choice that cigarettes were still useful idk how many times on magic mushrooms and had pondered a lot about the reason they were part of my experience. Now I don't dislike that I smoked cigarettes but only became dissonant with it because of my spiritual advancement and saw that the purpose it served had been accomplished. So I did let go of it, but completely effortlessly by simply losing any desire of it, never even told myself I wanted to stop and just stopped desiring it, which now allows me to cleanse from myself the weight this had upon my heart chakra and move toward a new configuration.

I think every part of our experience is symbolic and has meaning to it.

[YinYang]

I think the channelings make it clear that if there was no wanderer incarnating, then the Gaia would not shift into 4D and the harvest would miss and the cycle repeat.

This is not my understanding. I think Ra makes it quite clear that wanderers are incarnating because they are responding to a call. Our sphere is moving into 4D and the 3D cycle is ending irrespective of circumstances. Cycle length is fixed.

Questioner: The way I understand the process of evolution of a planetary population is that a population has a certain amount of time to progress. This is generally divided into three 25,000-year cycles. At the end of 75,000 years the planet progresses itself. What caused this situation to come about… preciseness of the years, 25,000 years, etc.? What set this up to begin with?

Ra: I am Ra. Visualize, if you will, the particular energy which, outward flowing and inward coagulating, formed the tiny realm of the creation governed by your Council of Saturn. Continue seeing the rhythm of this process. The living flow creates a rhythm which is as inevitable as one of your timepieces. Each of your planetary entities began the first cycle when the energy nexus was able in that environment to support such mind/body experiences. Thus, each of your planetary entities is on a different cyclical schedule as you might call it. The timing of these cycles is a measurement equal to a portion of intelligent energy.

This intelligent energy offers a type of clock. The cycles move as precisely as a clock strikes your hour. Thus, the gateway from intelligent energy to intelligent infinity opens regardless of circumstance on the striking of the hour.

[Minyatur]

I think the channelings make it clear that if there was no wanderer incarnating, then the Gaia would not shift into 4D and the harvest would miss and the cycle repeat.

This is not my understanding. I think Ra makes it quite clear that wanderers are incarnating because they are responding to a call. Our sphere is moving into 4D and the 3D cycle is ending irrespective of circumstances. Cycle length is fixed.

Questioner: The way I understand the process of evolution of a planetary population is that a population has a certain amount of time to progress. This is generally divided into three 25,000-year cycles. At the end of 75,000 years the planet progresses itself. What caused this situation to come about… preciseness of the years, 25,000 years, etc.? What set this up to begin with?

Ra: I am Ra. Visualize, if you will, the particular energy which, outward flowing and inward coagulating, formed the tiny realm of the creation governed by your Council of Saturn. Continue seeing the rhythm of this process. The living flow creates a rhythm which is as inevitable as one of your timepieces. Each of your planetary entities began the first cycle when the energy nexus was able in that environment to support such mind/body experiences. Thus, each of your planetary entities is on a different cyclical schedule as you might call it. The timing of these cycles is a measurement equal to a portion of intelligent energy.

This intelligent energy offers a type of clock. The cycles move as precisely as a clock strikes your hour. Thus, the gateway from intelligent energy to intelligent infinity opens regardless of circumstance on the striking of the hour.

I think I interpret this quote differently, this to me means the nexus point into which the planet can shift is fixed, but does not imply that the cycle cannot repeat as there should be no default outcome, and so that the clock would simply strike the hour again when the cycle completes again.

Else it'd be like the major cycle's purpose is to offer time to make the choice to polarize toward the negative, if not it goes with the default choice of positive. I think a shift toward the upper cycle to hapoen requires a strong enough leaning one way or another at the time the clock strikes the hour so that the planet locks into a higher vibration.

[YinYang]

I think I interpret this quote differently, this to me means the nexus point into which the planet can shift is fixed, but does not imply that the cycle cannot repeat as there should be no default outcome, and so that the clock would simply strike the hour again when the cycle completes again.

It's a little difficult to try and untangle what you said here, but I feel this is another example where you complicate things which are not complicated, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. There isn't another way to interpret what Ra has said, the cycle length is fixed, when the cycle ends, this planet will be 4D, and those not graduating to 4D will repeat 3D elsewhere. You also didn't say it's your own personal interpretation, you said "the channelings make it clear", which simply isn't so. That's why it's frustrating to follow this thread, because you state things which isn't so. Ra didn't say it's a nexus point where the planet can shift, they said it's a nexus point where the planet will shift. There is not another 75 000 year 3rd density cycle on this planet, there is only one.

Else it'd be like the major cycle's purpose is to offer time to make the choice to polarize toward the negative, if not it goes with the default choice of positive. I think a shift toward the upper cycle to hapoen requires a strong enough leaning one way or another at the time the clock strikes the hour so that the planet locks into a higher vibration. Ra didn't say it's a nexus point

I'm sorry, this statement is almost as confusing and ambiguous as the one above I attempted to respond to. It makes no sense whatsoever. You state many things as fact which isn't what Ra said, like saying earlier that the purpose for 3D is self awareness, it isn't, 3D is the density of choice. Self awareness is a requirement for 2D harvest to 3D.

I didn't read through your entire post, but it becomes a bit of a pointless discussion when you change things Ra said, or state things as factual which isn't so, when this forum is dedicated to the teachings of Ra...

[Minyatur]

I think I interpret this quote differently, this to me means the nexus point into which the planet can shift is fixed, but does not imply that the cycle cannot repeat as there should be no default outcome, and so that the clock would simply strike the hour again when the cycle completes again.

It's a little difficult to try and untangle what you said here, but I feel this is another example where you complicate things which are not complicated, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. There isn't another way to interpret what Ra has said, the cycle length is fixed, when the cycle ends, this planet will be 4D, and those not graduating to 4D will repeat 3D elsewhere. You also didn't say it's your own personal interpretation, you said "the channelings make it clear", which simply isn't so. That's why it's frustrating to follow this thread, because you state things which isn't so. Ra didn't say it's a nexus point where the planet can shift, they said it's a nexus point where the planet will shift. There is not another 75 000 year 3rd density cycle on this planet, there is only one.

I don't think Ra's quote goes against what I said. They say it will shift for the same reason some positive channelings seem overly happy to state that the harvest is set to happen as things are going. This does not mean that it could not skip the nexus point and need to repeat the cycle.

My point about polarity is that there is a choice mankind has to make about direction this planet will shift toward and that this choice is infringed upon by positive wanderers that through incarnating forcefully highten the planet's vibration toward the positive. So while there is purpose to this, it doesn't change the fact that they strip mankind of making it's own choice.

Else it'd be like the major cycle's purpose is to offer time to make the choice to polarize toward the negative, if not it goes with the default choice of positive. I think a shift toward the upper cycle to hapoen requires a strong enough leaning one way or another at the time the clock strikes the hour so that the planet locks into a higher vibration. Ra didn't say it's a nexus point

I'm sorry, this statement is almost as confusing and ambiguous as the one above I attempted to respond to. It makes no sense whatsoever. You state many things as fact which isn't what Ra said, like saying earlier that the purpose for 3D is self awareness, it isn't, 3D is the density of choice. Self awareness is a requirement for 2D harvest to 3D.

Choice is something that comes from the exploration of self-awareness, so while it is the requirement to move from 2D to 3D, it is still the focus of 3D.

Ra: I am Ra. The path of our learning is graven in the present moment. There is no history, as we understand your concept. Picture, if you will, a circle of being. We know the alpha and omega as infinite intelligence. The circle never ceases. It is present. The densities we have traversed at various points in the circle correspond to the characteristics of cycles: first, the cycle of awareness; second, the cycle of growth; third, the cycle of self-awareness; fourth, the cycle of love or understanding; fifth, the cycle of light or wisdom; sixth, the cycle of light/love, love/light, or unity; seventh, the gateway cycle; eighth, the octave which moves into a mystery we do not plumb.

Took me a few seconds to find a quote where Ra called the third cycle the one of self-awareness. So seems that in your own example of saying I say things Ra did not say, you did so yourself and said something unlike Ra's teachings to negate something I said which was in accordance.

I didn't read through your entire post, but it becomes a bit of a pointless discussion when you change things Ra said, or state things as factual which isn't so, when this forum is dedicated to the teachings of Ra...

I extrapoliate from things more than change anything.

[Jade]

I can provide more help. You smoke weed? Well you could vaporize it instead of smoking it which would allow chemicals that vaporize at a lower temperatures to not be destroyed by the flame and provide a different high. Imo, the vaporizer ends up paying for itself because in my case it really made me lower my consumption a whole lot, guess that would depend on the kind you get though.

...


It really made me reduce my consumption a whole lot because you get really high with little and can vape on not much for quite a while. Got one at same time I stopped cigarettes and desired to cut smoke altogether since I was stopping them.

I actually have been vaping some but I just enjoy the act of smoking flowers. Anyway, this is an interesting point because it brings up the transformation - do I want marijuana that's already been "primed" for me, that gets me more stoned with less? Or do I want to go through the act of courting the flower? I know this is a silly one but I think the conversation about this started with the talk of crystallized DMT. It's not that I want to lower my consumption so that I get more stoned on less, I personally believe smoking marijuana (or using any altering substances on a regular basis) is symptomatic of a red-ray blockage. Why do I reject my experience as it is?

I think you miss that I haven't been trying to tell you that you should plunder anything but that you can still meddle with what you consider prostitutes. They probably need more love than a virginal maiden that has never been wronged.

When have I said that I wouldn't meddle with prostitutes? I fail to see where I made that point and where you subsequently tried to undo it. I even in my previous post referred to Gaia as a prostitute (which you had a problem with), and I send plenty of love to Gaia and work with her a lot. And in the analogy, where we are referring to our subconscious, where she IS both the prostitute and the maiden, she has already definitely been wronged, so it's about restitution to the maiden you have wronged.

My example still wasn't about plundering but offering what is required by other-self in a loving way. And again, can you court a prostitute?

I think this is where you are most confused. Again, Ra says "both the virginal and the prostituted INVITE and AWAIT the reaching". You say you hear the calls of the beef cattle so you make the sacrifice within the self to go to McDonald's to consume the beef out of love. Again, the prostitute will call you, tell you she needs you, and if you respond, you can still feel as if you served her. STS "serves" us by treating us like prostitutes. My reaction to the analogy is that I used McDonald's because I don't consume McDonald's because I think they epitomize the act of plunder, so giving them my money (feeding them with my energy) is something I long ago gave up participating in. I still hear the need to alleviate the dark energies so I do still work with that energy, at a distance.

Yes, you can court a prostitute. But you can't court a prostitute by "badly prostituting" her. This is what developing compassion is about, and understanding this archetype is about. The prostitute wants you to have sex with her and give her money in return, or at least, her surface desires say so - the veil makes her say so. Before the veil, it was impossible to badly prostitute something. That's why we go through the process to thin the veil IMO.

Just like STS entities, they need to use others to advance their own evolution.

More than Ra, it is the brothers and sisters of sorrow that I feel like conquer worlds and worlds for selfish reasons while using selected others as a pretext to do so. That they do this to learn lessons they constantly avoid learning and have no desire to learn, they want to dwell in a positive intent they avoid questioning further to not shake the light they dwell within. I do think past a certain point, this becomes plundering because there is a lack of desire to better their ways of service and move forward.

I do find the purity of their intent quite beautiful, but their unwillingness to learn and desire their to blind themselves to the inherent selfishness of what they do however many times they repeat it again and again, does give me mixed feelings. I still believe most of those of Ra don't do this.

Okay... who are you to say these entities haven't learned certain lessons? How would you know this? How do you know that many of the positive entities of the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow (of which Ra calls themselves, and of which Ra is likely some of the most STO biased) didn't already retrace the negative path unto the positive one, and now is trying to alleviate the suffering of those they perceive as dwelling in darkness?

I think where you are lacking compassion is for all of the asleep entities that are crying out for help. They want spiritual catalyst so that they can "wake up" to a point where they aren't sleepwalking like slaves through their existence. I think of those who are trying to help harvest, as entities who are gently shaking the shoulders of those who are sleeping through their alarm. When they wake up, they will likely be grateful. If they oversleep, they're going to be disappointed in themselves. I'm just adding stimulus to the "alarm".

You say everyone should be allowed to use the catalyst available to them. Sleep specifically implies that one is unable to or not using the catalyst that is available to them.

Like I said, we can come here for myriads of reasons. I am quite fond of 3D and it's veil.

I'm also fond of the veil! But do you mean you aren't trying to use the archetypes in an effort the pierce the veil more thoroughly? The veil never goes away, it just thins more and more, or re-thickens if we get lazy.

Becoming aware of these things does have an impact on how you will feel about things and in turn on your polarity. If you peel off your veil you can't bound yourself to remain as you were before and here again there is an act of letting you as you've been saying yourself. To open yourself to higher ways known as known to your soul, you need to acknowledge that within yourself you know better and must make a choice to open yourself to this inner experience which contains so much more than a single lifetime, you need to let go of your ways of service to perceive that you have a greater potential within yourself and that unwillingness to connect to this potential that you hold and which is within your reach, also can be considered plundering, because you won't seek to offer the best you can offer and make a choice to dwell in a lesser state than you can reach.

I don't think any of this is unrelated to the archetype. Just like you say you can move on to ways that are without plunder, this doesn't mean that it stops there on the first basic level and that you can't do more and more. Like I said there are degrees of awareness which allow you to perceive much more than your conscious mind can perceive, and this awareness can make you act differently than you used to if you want to remain as loving and with the same positive intent in what you do.

I don't disagree with what you've been saying, what I disagree with is that what I've been saying is unrelated to it.

No, you've actually disagreed a lot with what I've said, called it heavily distorted, etc. When have I denied opening oneself up to higher experiences of the soul? The fact is, Ra says the mind must be known FIRST, and this is a step we are obviously all struggling with (except you, you have it down pat ) Then we can begin to learn about the movements of the soul. If the mind is confused, everything in context of the movements of the soul is confused - much like your anger towards harvest and the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow. It seems confused. If you believe everything can do as it will, why do you call what the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow do as "selfish", relatively? Isn't free will always selfish, but in an attempt to work at becoming less selfish/more unified? How else can we work on being unified other than helping other parts of the Creator raise their vibrations to unification?

It's not that what you are saying is 'unrelated', it is just muddling the point of the archetype. You come into this latest post and act like you've been agreeing with me the whole time but you actually haven't. You apparently think you have a more enlightened view of what is means to be STO than Ra does, and I'm happy with that you feel secure in that, and I haven't been trying to take that away from you. Again, I don't disagree with you either, except on a few points of the archetype - that you think it's basically impossible to plunder, and that the highest action is to give into every whim of the high priestess through the veil. These are things you have been advocating. If you have changed your mind, that's cool, but don't act like I'm making up strawmen when you are the one who keeps moving the goalposts.

While I think the creator basically is an eternal child, since the card is about transformation should not the movement reflect the transformation of one? I see it as symbolizing growth.

Personally I see it as more of a reversion to that eternal child, but either way that eternal child is why I was hinting that the idea of a teenage love story isn't quite as shallow as you immediately dismissed it as.

I'm not talking about sex... I'm not courting the dog because I am not seeking anything from it but am simply sharing a moment with it. I already said to me courting implies trying to win something.

But you ARE seeking something, you are seeking to share a moment with it. That is my definition of courting. The "sexual" analogy infers the "simultaneous orgasm" of mutual pleasure received by two entities who "share a moment".

I really have a problem continuing discussing on a "point for point" basis like this, I think a lot of meaning gets lost and it's just attempts at quips and backtracking. Again, you have disagreed with much of what I said, but somehow in your most recent post you make it seem like you were agreeing with me all along, but just trying to teach me some sort of higher lesson? My point is that I am trying to talk about a "lower lesson", a fragment of the higher lesson. Either way, I do feel we have a different understanding of this card and it is somewhat incongruent.

You say polarity is relative and that anyone can experience anything and polarize how they please. This is true to an extent. However, the Transformation of the Mind is about getting to the place where you do have the conscious power to do such things. Otherwise, you are justifiying negatively polarizing or unpolarizing acts. We are groping in the moonlight, because of the veil, which is why we use the archetypes to thin the veil, so that we have more "light", aka more wisdom. Ra says that "well-meant and unintentional slavery" is ubiquitous here, and I think that going to McDonald's to eat the beef because you feel bad for it is "well-meant but unintentional slavery" - because you are still helping perpetuate the "slavery". Because, it's not JUST about the mind realm - it's about how the mind interacts with the body. Can you court the prostitute? Well, if in your mind you think you are courting the prostitute, but you are still just engaging her in prostitution, you are not "courting" her, you are prostituting her. Haven't you ever seen Pretty Woman?? There is implied a different in action, or at least the outward thrust of the will, as Ra says, "go forth and court it".

83.12 Questioner: Then you say that there are no cases where those who are service-to-others oriented are using in any way techniques of enslavement that have grown as a result of the evolution of our social structures? Is this what you mean?

Ra: I am Ra. It was our understanding that your query concerned conditions before the veiling. There was no unconscious slavery, as you call this condition, at that period. At the present space/time the condition of well-meant and unintentional slavery are so numerous that it beggars our ability to enumerate them.

What I'm trying to do is avoid any acts which might make something beholden to me as a slave. Of course, this is nigh impossible, but that's why the Transformation is so useful, because it's always there to be used.

At one point, you put quotations around "human" and scoffed that I was too interested in the human realm. What I feel from you is that perhaps your use of entheogens has done something to your red-ray that makes you disconnected from this experience. I really try to avoid anything that cuts me off from being grounded in this reality, because I do want to be involved in human services. A lot of the Hatonn channelings that you posted were in attempts to help move people out of the martyr vibration - I'm also trying to talk to those who have moved out of, or who are trying to move out of the martyr vibration. This is one step along the journey to "advanced" stuff. But you must know the mind realm before you can fruitfully explore the spirit realm.

When you initially came into this thread, which was an anecdote about my relationship with my husband and his relationship with his subconscious, you scoffed at the idea of the archetype because you thought that the idea of the Creator desiring compassion was unpalatable. You also didn't like the polarity implied by the male/female interaction. You also have implied that your have an open communication with your High Priestess that requires nothing that you would consider courting, and nothing that you would consider plunder. Yet you still accept polarity - then how would you define it? I mean, how do you contextualize it in your interactions with others? You have also said you have a problem with the romance implied in the card, which is echoed throughout the rest of the archetypes. How do you reconcile the act of lovemaking that is implied throughout?

Ra: To begin to master the concept of mental discipline it is necessary to examine the self. The polarity of your dimension must be internalized. Where you find patience within your mind you must consciously find the corresponding impatience and vice versa. Each thought that a being has, has in its turn an antithesis. The disciplines of the mind involve, first of all, identifying both those things of which you approve and those things of which you disapprove within yourself, and then balancing each and every positive and negative charge with its equal. The mind contains all things. Therefore, you must discover this completeness within yourself.

Ra says to know the mind, you must recognize each thing and its antithesis. You must internalize the polarity of this dimension. You must be able to see and recognize the dipoles. You say male/female, plunder/court don't work - but, these are dipoles that must be understood and internalized on some level to move forward.

[Patrick]

...
My point about polarity is that there is a choice mankind has to make about direction this planet will shift toward  and that this choice is infringed upon by positive wanderers that through incarnating forcefully highten the planet's vibration toward the positive. So while there is purpose to this, it doesn't change the fact that they strip mankind of making it's own choice.
...

What if negative wanderers are offered the same chance to incarnate here and forcefully lower the planet's vibration toward the negative?

My understanding is that the quarantine process balances out every influences/offerings that come from "outside".
 

[YinYang]

I don't think Ra's quote goes against what I said. They say it will shift for the same reason some positive channelings seem overly happy to state that the harvest is set to happen as things are going. This does not mean that it could not skip the nexus point and need to repeat the cycle.

Let's back up a little, you said:

I think the channelings make it clear that if there was no wanderer incarnating, then the Gaia would not shift into 4D and the harvest would miss and the cycle repeat.

This is why I say you change things Ra has said, because this statement or understanding of yours is nowhere in the Ra material, it's your own invention. Then when I give you the Ra excerpt to point out your error, you answer in the most confusing and ambiguous way, that it actually makes no sense. Not only do you change a very basic understanding about the progression of the densities, you preamble it with "the channelings make it clear"...

Took me a few seconds to find a quote where Ra called the third cycle the one of self-awareness. So seems that in your own example of saying I say things Ra did not say, you did so yourself and said something unlike Ra's teachings to negate something I said which was in accordance.

My error, which doesn’t negate what I said above.

I extrapoliate from things more than change anything.

No, you change things, as my example shows.

[Jade]

First of all, free will and the Gaia quarantine are a very odd situation - firstly, Ra says that within our time/space continuum, having the many planetary groups finishing their cycles here on Earth is unique, which is why the vibrations are so difficult. Secondly, it was Yahweh who many years ago first infringed upon the third density population of Gaia when the population of Mars decided to finish its cycle here. So, Gaia has already been "infringed" by a group who had previous destroyed their planet, and a lot of this "quarantine" nonsense is the fallout from those actions.

This is what Ra says about the density shift and Gaia's role:

6.16 Questioner: What is the position of this planet with respect to progression of the cycle at this time?

Ra: I am Ra. This sphere is at this time in fourth-dimension vibration. Its material is quite confused due to the society memory complexes embedded in its consciousness. It has not made an easy transition to the vibrations which beckon. Therefore, it will be fetched with some inconvenience.

The planet has already shifted into 4th density, it is the lag of the confusion of our fragmented social memory complexes from many different planetary entities that make the transition difficult. Wanderers have come to help smooth those energies.

6.13 Questioner: Thanks. Is all of the Earth’s population then, human population of the earth, are all of them originally from Maldek?

Ra: I am Ra. This is a new line of questioning, and deserves a place of its own. The ones who were harvested to your sphere from the sphere known before its dissolution as other names, but to your peoples as Maldek, incarnated, many within your Earth’s surface rather than upon it. The population of your planet contains many various groups harvested from other second-dimension and cycled third-dimension spheres. You are not all one race or background of beginning. The experience you share is unique to this time/space continuum.

Earth's free will as a planetary entity is quite complicated, and I can't begin to understand it, except that Ra says its vibrations are already 4th density, and it's the mind complexes of its people who are keeping it trapped in 3rd.

[Minyatur]

I think the channelings make it clear that if there was no wanderer incarnating, then the Gaia would not shift into 4D and the harvest would miss and the cycle repeat.

This is why I say you change things Ra has said, because this statement or understanding of yours is nowhere in the Ra material, it's your own invention. Then when I give you the Ra excerpt to point out your error, you answer in the most confusing and ambiguous way, that it actually makes no sense. Not only do you change a very basic understanding about the progression of the densities, you preamble it with "the channelings make it clear"...

I said channelings because I was not reffering to the Ra material but other things I often see get posted that talks about the harvest.

What I said about the quote you gave is that I don't think it contradicts what I said and that the stiking hour represents that the cycles has fixed extremes and not that it cannot repeat and strike the hour again. Just that it is the moment that will matter and yeah as of now I also don't think this planet will fail to harvest STO unless the opposite camp does something extreme to prevent it and shake this planet's entire vibration.

If we take the example of Mars, which seem to have been in an earlier cycle to this one, blowing up their atmosphere did seem to prevent any transition toward 4D from happening. Bit extreme but shows the inhabitants of the world do have an impact and are not external to it.

[Minyatur]

First of all, free will and the Gaia quarantine are a very odd situation - firstly, Ra says that within our time/space continuum, having the many planetary groups finishing their cycles here on Earth is unique, which is why the vibrations are so difficult. Secondly, it was Yahweh who many years ago first infringed upon the third density population of Gaia when the population of Mars decided to finish its cycle here. So, Gaia has already been "infringed" by a group who had previous destroyed their planet, and a lot of this "quarantine" nonsense is the fallout from those actions.

This is what Ra says about the density shift and Gaia's role:

6.16 Questioner: What is the position of this planet with respect to progression of the cycle at this time?

Ra: I am Ra. This sphere is at this time in fourth-dimension vibration. Its material is quite confused due to the society memory complexes embedded in its consciousness. It has not made an easy transition to the vibrations which beckon. Therefore, it will be fetched with some inconvenience.

The planet has already shifted into 4th density, it is the lag of the confusion of our fragmented social memory complexes from many different planetary entities that make the transition difficult. Wanderers have come to help smooth those energies.

6.13 Questioner: Thanks. Is all of the Earth’s population then, human population of the earth, are all of them originally from Maldek?

Ra: I am Ra. This is a new line of questioning, and deserves a place of its own. The ones who were harvested to your sphere from the sphere known before its dissolution as other names, but to your peoples as Maldek, incarnated, many within your Earth’s surface rather than upon it. The population of your planet contains many various groups harvested from other second-dimension and cycled third-dimension spheres. You are not all one race or background of beginning. The experience you share is unique to this time/space continuum.

Earth's free will as a planetary entity is quite complicated, and I can't begin to understand it, except that Ra says its vibrations are already 4th density, and it's the mind complexes of its people who are keeping it trapped in 3rd.

Yeah with just a bit of an open field it is easy to sense this planet's vibration is above 3D. I still don't think this being the case is unrelated to what I have been talking about.

I agree with what you said about those of Yahweh but I still don't think to even things or balance things has been the focus.

[YinYang]

I said channelings because I was not reffering to the Ra material but other things I often see get posted that talks about the harvest.

What I said about the quote you gave is that I don't think it contradicts what I said and that the stiking hour represents that the cycles has fixed extremes and not that it cannot repeat and strike the hour again.  Just that it is the moment that will matter and yeah as of now I also don't think this planet will fail to harvest STO unless the opposite camp does something extreme to prevent it and shake this planet's entire vibration.

If we take the example of Mars, which seem to have been in an earlier cycle to this one, blowing up their atmosphere did seem to prevent any transition toward 4D from happening. Bit extreme but shows the inhabitants of the world do have an impact and are not external to it.

We can go around in circles like this endlessly, which is pointless.

This:

Questioner: The way I understand the process of evolution of a planetary population is that a population has a certain amount of time to progress. This is generally divided into three 25,000-year cycles. At the end of 75,000 years the planet progresses itself. What caused this situation to come about… preciseness of the years, 25,000 years, etc.? What set this up to begin with?

Ra: I am Ra. Visualize, if you will, the particular energy which, outward flowing and inward coagulating, formed the tiny realm of the creation governed by your Council of Saturn. Continue seeing the rhythm of this process. The living flow creates a rhythm which is as inevitable as one of your timepieces. Each of your planetary entities began the first cycle when the energy nexus was able in that environment to support such mind/body experiences. Thus, each of your planetary entities is on a different cyclical schedule as you might call it. The timing of these cycles is a measurement equal to a portion of intelligent energy.

This intelligent energy offers a type of clock. The cycles move as precisely as a clock strikes your hour. Thus, the gateway from intelligent energy to intelligent infinity opens regardless of circumstance on the striking of the hour.

contradicts this:

I think the channelings make it clear that if there was no wanderer incarnating, then the Gaia would not shift into 4D and the harvest would miss and the cycle repeat.

Another thing I feel like mentioning, is that you don't really seem to want to make yourself understood, because this: "what I said and that the stiking hour represents that the cycles has fixed extremes and not that it cannot repeat and strike the hour again" doesn't make any sense to me.

What does "fixed extreme" mean? More confusion. There is a future point where the cycle ends, simple. There's no "extremes"... The rest of the sentence is just as confusing, there is no repeating of anything, a point is reached, the cycle ends. The clock analogy is just Ra's way to bring across the inevitability and precise timing of this event.

I'm also not sure why you deviate to Mars now, when your statement in question inferred that the planet is only moving into 4D because of the presence of wanderers, which is why I posted the Ra excerpt saying "regardless of circumstance". Also, "the harvest would miss and the cycle repeat" makes no sense as well.

[Jade]

What's I feel may be wrong with all of this is the nebulous concept of time that we are applying to the cycle. There is no real time. We've all had multiple, simultaneous incarnations that span time, and not in a linear sense. If someone still needs earth energies they can incarnate on Earth at a different point in the timeline. We all incarnated during Harvest, for a reason, IMO based upon what Ra and what most of the other channelings about harvest say.

Yeah with just a bit of an open field it is easy to sense this planet's vibration is above 3D. I still don't think this being the case is unrelated to what I have been talking about.

I agree with what you said about those of Yahweh but I still don't think to even things or balance things has been the focus.

I'm glad you agree with what Ra has said about Yahweh, and as far as evening or balancing things out, I was talking about the point of the quarantine.

9.9 Questioner: The guardians obviously were acting with an understanding of the Law of One in doing this. Can you explain the application of the Law of One in this process?

Ra: I am Ra. The Law of One was named by these guardians as the bringing of the wisdom of the guardians in contact with the entities from the Red Planet, thus melding the social memory complex of the guardian race and the Red Planet race. It, however, took an increasing amount of distortion into the application of the Law of One from the viewpoint of other guardians and it is from this beginning action that the quarantine of this planet was instituted, for it was felt that the free will of those of the Red Planet had been abridged.

I guess I misspoke, I said it was Gaia's infringement that instituted the quarantine, but it was actually Yahweh infringing on those of Mars by placing them here.

I guess we disagree on a philosophical point, but I believed that one of the Confederation's teachings' main themes was that Wanderers are here to aid the "birth" of 4th density. In the quote I posted even, Ra said it "will be fetched with some inconvenience" as if someone has to retrieve it. It needs help. Gaia is calling for help - to me, it also takes very little tuning to feel Gaia struggling against the third density social memory thought complexes. Do you resonate more with sabotaging the transition?

[Patrick]

So in essence, the collective choice has already been made and we are just here to help the transition.  Yeah I believe this as well.
 

[YinYang]

I still wonder why the entities in our solar system are so belligerent and aggressive, when Ra said our logos has a bias towards kindness. Where did it all go so haywire? And I 'have' wondered sometimes how things might have been if those of Maldek and Mars were not brought here, this planet is like a correctional facility. We might as well all wear orange jumpsuits.

[Minyatur]

I think I will bow out of this thread as we never come to find mutual understanding.

I will end this with a quick example of this, what I said about vaping marijuana was about that smoking using a flame will destroy parts of the chemical components the plant has to offer. So while I agree that I could do better by growing it myself and trimming it myself, I wrote that only because I thought it'd mean something to you given what was said about DMT in the ayahuasca thread and how you think the chemicals of a plant should be courted.  I did not start vaping for this reason and simply thought it was neat that it allows to get more from the plant which usually is wasted, and that this was worth sharing in this context.

So the intent of my message was not found in the response to it despite that it did relate fully to the thread because I failed at giving value to what I was trying to share. Guess I got a lot of work to do on communication. Been told I express my ideas much better irl, a gemimi needs to move his hands through the air while talking else it ruins it..

[Patrick]

I see this environment as a video game where we cranked up the difficulty level to the absolute maximum.  Increasing all aspects that promotes the illusion of separation to their maximum expressions, like our social conditioning, our opposable thumbs and like the veil itself.  Just to see if in such conditions the Creator would still find itself.  In such an environment, we have to be completely foolish to have faith in Oneness.  Still we find ways and the Creator is in ecstasy when we do.  This experience would not be possible without the help of the negative part of the Creator.

No matter how long and how many times we repeat 3d, we all win in time.

We find it is worth it to continue trying because the worth to the Self on winning the game at this particular difficulty level is absolute as well.

So all is well really !
 

[Infinite Unity]

I see this environment as a video game where we cranked up the difficulty level to the absolute maximum.  Increasing all aspects that promotes the illusion of separation to their maximum expressions, like our social conditioning, our opposable thumbs and like the veil itself.  Just to see if in such conditions the Creator would still find itself.  In such an environment, we have to be completely foolish to have faith in Oneness.  Still we find ways and the Creator is in ecstasy when we do.  This experience would not be possible without the help of the negative part of the Creator.

No matter how long and how many times we repeat 3d, we all win in time.

We find it is worth it to continue trying because the worth to the Self on winning the game at this particular difficulty level is absolute as well.

So all is well really !
 

It is a game, and it is not. There is huge risks involved. It is not akin to how humans see risk. It is more akin to risk to a mindset/memory bank. In that the logos itself is trying to reach further in a sense. All is well, is true, and not true,Without the real risk, you would not be real.That is why free will is so important. Entities have a very delicate mind. They can only climb the steps of light at there own pace. For proof that there is real risk. There is a Ra quote where it states that they, and others have to basically save m/b/s from being lost forever. What I am saying is this. That everything is all and well and forever be. However there are real choices that effect everyone, and yourself. Yes I believe we all return to the creator. Except I do believe we are unique, and that will never fade. I will always be my essence, and you yours. We will forever grow, learn, and experience our Father/Mother's kingdom. The cornerstone always being LOVE!!!

[Patrick]

This is why we are fools.
 

[Jade]

I think I will bow out of this thread as we never come to find mutual understanding.

I will end this with a quick example of this, what I said about vaping marijuana was about that smoking using a flame will destroy parts of the chemical components the plant has to offer. So while I agree that I could do better by growing it myself and trimming it myself, I wrote that only because I thought it'd mean something to you given what was said about DMT in the ayahuasca thread and how you think the chemicals of a plant should be courted.  I did not start vaping for this reason and simply thought it was neat that it allows to get more from the plant which usually is wasted, and that this was worth sharing in this context.

So the intent of my message was not found in the response to it despite that it did relate fully to the thread because I failed at giving value to what I was trying to share. Guess I got a lot of work to do on communication. Been told I express my ideas much better irl, a gemimi needs to move his hands through the air while talking else it ruins it..

I have to admit that I had a thought that I maybe misinterpreted your marijuana comments, because here in Colorado, people who vape mostly vape concentrates. So I was thinking about it in the form of vaping concentrates and not flower, as I don't know anyone at the moment who vapes flower (except you?)

I see your point but my point was towards the concentrates spectrum. I have vaped extracted THC oil, but again, it really isn't my intent to get higher on less, but to manage my consumption period. I'm not sure that if I switched to vaping, I would feel better about how I was courting the plant. Less waste makes sense.

Ayahuasca was a completely different thing, because I can plant a seed a grow a marijuana plant in my backyard with very little effort (I have 6 plants right now!). Even compared to shrooms, which you can go pick off cow turds (or grow quite easily at home), ayahuasca is just a different thing entirely as far as cultivation and extraction for use.

And, practicing communication was the point of this exercise, I assumed?

[YinYang]

Another head scratcher for me, speaking of the atom bombs, I wonder why the confederation gives 'any' technical information to positive entities, when it always falls into negative hands. The way the two polarities work, makes it impossible to give anything, because the nature of the positive polarity is to share, and the nature of the negative polarity is to exploit. So it would seem to me that on a mixed harvest planet, anything the positive polarity acquires, they'll happily share, only to see it used against them.

[Jade]

Yeah... definitely a good paradox. Pretty sure Ra says that any technical information that has been given to humans has basically been regretted because of this.

8.6 Questioner: How did the United States learn of the technology to build these land [inaudible]?

Ra: I am Ra. There was a mind/body/spirit complex known to your people by the vibratory sound complex, Nikola. This entity departed the illusion and the papers containing the necessary understandings were taken by mind/body/spirit complexes serving your security of national divisional complex. Thus your people became privy to the basic technology. In the case of those mind/body/spirit complexes which you call Russians, the technology was given from one of the Confederation in an attempt, approximately twenty-seven of your years ago, to share information and bring about peace among your peoples. The entities giving this information were in error, but we did many things at the end of this cycle in attempts to aid your harvest from which we learned the folly of certain types of aid. That is a contributing factor to our more cautious approach at this date, even as the need is power upon power greater, and your people’s call is greater and greater.

[YinYang]

Okay, that solves that. I guess at this point, we must be grateful for odd things, like the nuclear weapons being fairly evenly distributed at opposing ends, otherwise we might have seen more mushroom clouds in recent years.

Questioner: I was concerned about the amount of physical distortions, disease, and that sort of thing in third-density negative just before harvest and in fourth-density negative just after harvest or in transition. What are the conditions of the physical problems, disease, etc., at late third-density negative?

Ra: I am Ra. Each planetary experience is unique. The problems, shall we say, of bellicose actions are more likely to be of pressing concern to late third-density negative entities than the earth’s reactions to negativity of the planetary mind, for it is often by such warlike attitudes on a global scale that the necessary negative polarization is achieved.

As fourth density occurs there is a new planet and new physical vehicle system gradually expressing itself and the parameters of bellicose actions become those of thought rather than manifested weapons.

[Night Owl]

I have to admit that I had a thought that I maybe misinterpreted your marijuana comments, because here in Colorado, people who vape mostly vape concentrates. So I was thinking about it in the form of vaping concentrates and not flower, as I don't know anyone at the moment who vapes flower (except you?)

I see your point but my point was towards the concentrates spectrum. I have vaped extracted THC oil, but again, it really isn't my intent to get higher on less, but to manage my consumption period. I'm not sure that if I switched to vaping, I would feel better about how I was courting the plant. Less waste makes sense.

I do it too and I would never go back. Not because it gets you higher but because the feeling of the high is much more positive and happy feeling. And your lungs gets like 80% less dirty. It also taste a lot better. The chemical compounds found in the plant vaporize at temperature like 350F to 410F but a lighter flame is like 760F and more so pretty much everything gets destroyed by the time the smoke is in your mouth. I've tried going back a few times and it made it clear to me how real smoke is actually really bad for you but when you use it that way all the time you do not notice. I also find I get much less tired. And I would say it takes no more than 24h for your lungs to clean it up while I feel like smoke takes at least 4-5 days. So to me vaping/smoking = courting/plundering. But growing it by yourself is surely a step towards courting too.

[Jade]

Pretty interesting. That makes sense, and I agree with your use of the analogy. I just -assumed- without any thought that it was a reference to concentrates, since flower vaping rigs are quite pricey but you can get a very compact pen to vape concentrates for like less than $20. I've thought about getting a Magic Flight Launch Box (can get them ~$150) before anyway - might be convinced now!! I feel grossed out by butane anyway.