How a death can unite or untie a family

[Lavazza]

Hello friends,

I've noticed recently on the forum that we have quite a few members who know A LOT about religion. I find it quite humbling... and see that I know close to nothing by comparison. Please accept my applause!

Now then, in light of such knowledge I would like to ask for your participation in answering a question of mine dealing with the passing of a loved one. My grandfather on my mothers side passed in to larger life last Sunday evening. The funeral is planned for this Friday and I have the honor of acting as one of the pall bearers for my beloved grandpa. Anyways- my extended family is of mixed religions. One family is Jewish and very religiously strict, others are Christian to varying degrees of strictness (from nonpracticing, to casual sunday church goers to avid daily Bible readers), some are secular / agnostic (my immediate family included), and some are fairly hard lined atheists.

My confusion is this... I firmly believe that consciousness goes on after physical death. But my reason for this belief is rooted in intuition combined with consciousness science, NDE testimony, hypnotic regression and et cetera. I know that the topic of life after death will be on many peoples' minds at the funeral. And I suspect that the topic may arise afterwards as well. This will doubtlessly lead in to some religious talk, and this happening is causing me some level of well founded anxiety.

In 2002, at a family gathering, I was approached by one of my uncles who is of the strict Christian orientation. He asked me what my religious beliefs were. I was taken off guard, and so I told him what my version of the highest truth was at the time, which was Hinduism. (In truth I was really just starting to learn about it). He then proceeded to attempt to explain to me why my beliefs were wrong and how my eternal soul was in serious jeopardy. I had the impression that he was prepared for such a discussion like this, whereas I clearly wasn't. I backed out of the conversation with some comment or other that I can't remember. He later came up to me and offered a quasi-apology for approaching me like that, which I awkwardly accepted. This hasn't happened again since then, but I've also only seen him two or three times in that 8 year period, being that I live in California and he in Wisconsin.

And so I find myself apprehensive about the coming funeral this week and the inevitable thoughts about the afterlife that will be raised. I'm not sure how I should respond or comment about what my grandfathers soul might be up to. I have considered, but also decided against not offered my views if asked. It would be the easy way out, because I wouldn't have to go through explaining what I believe and why. I wouldn't attract condemnation from the religious, or attract "are you crazy?" looks from the secular / atheists. The reason I won't go this route is for the sake of my now windowed grandmother. She's a very loving spirit, but also fragile, and especially so now that the most stable part of her life has passed away rather unexpectedly. Were I to claim ignorance about the afterlife I would see it as a disservice to her, when she needs support and consolation the most. So I will accept the consequences from my other family members instead, in service to her.

This is an interesting catalyst since it can be dealt with in so many different ways. I am resolved to handle each interaction as lovingly as possible. I guess my question is less specific and more general. What would you do? I would love to read your comments, and especially as how they might relate to the various religious and non-religious beliefs of the group in which I will be participating.

Thanks for reading,

L&L, ~Lavazza

[AnthroHeart]

My mother's brother passed away this weekend as well. We will be going to spend time with family in a couple of weeks, so will probably miss any official gathering. I guess it's just as well. My mom and I are both energy sensitive, so being around all the crying and sad people would otherwise weigh heavy on us.

I guess you can't really plan for how interactions will go. I just deal with things as they come up.

[Brittany]

I tend to have levels of explanation when it comes to explaining my "religion" to people. To both those who ask simply to make conversation, and those whom I know are going to try their best to bash in my beliefs no matter what I say unless it is the same as them, I give a general, somewhat generic answer. I usually just tell people that I "believe in all religions" and believe that each should be allowed to follow the path that works best for them. If someone asks with an open mind and honestly wants to know what I believe, I have no problem telling them the complete truth. So if it were me in this situation I would tell the truth about what I think, but I would put limits on the range of my expression of those beliefs. There's no point in throwing something in someone's face when you know they won't listen to it. It is a waste of time and energy. Even when I talk to open-minded people, I don't start out with "hey, I believe aliens from another dimension are talking to me in my head!". I've been locked up in mental institutions enough times to realize the errors of that approach. Still, I think you are doing the right thing in trying to find an appropriate way to express what you perceive to be truth in order to be of further service, and there is no need to outright lie. Just be discreet. Of course, this is all my opinion only and I certainly don't claim it to be the "right decision."

[Questioner]

I like Ahktu's approach. I would politely but firmly shift the topic to the life that everyone gathered to remember. I would be ready to say something like this:

I feel at peace when I think about grandfather's spirit now in a larger life. But rather than talking about my religious beliefs, which we can't prove for sure, let's talk about grandfather's life. Let's use today to honor what we remember of his earthly life. He was always beloved to me because of the way he...

If people do sincerely seem to want to talk about religion, I would put in a disclaimer or two, and set boundaries:

My beliefs are inspiring to me, but I realize other people find their own way to understand the mystery of life. I know we have a family where some people believe in God, some don't at all, some only occasionally think about religion. It matters more to me that people are kind and loving to each other, than whether or not they have a particular dogma or creed.
I'm willing to share my own beliefs, but not to debate them or to say what anyone should believe. If you're open to an exchange in that spirit I am fine with saying more. Some people feel a need to evaluate other people's faith, to decide if it measures up to some outside standards. When that happens I'd just as soon keep my own beliefs to myself, and talk about something else.
What do you want to do?

The right words will come up at the right time, as GW says. For me, this kind of thought is not a script, but a reinforcement of the type of energy I want to bring to the interaction. The intention will then lead me to the particular words or lack of words that are needed in the moment.

[fairyfarmgirl]

I would begin reading what Christ Loving Evangelical Ministers (as opposed to the the God Fearing Kind) are saying when they tend to their congregations concerning a death. Memorize a phrase or two that fits in with your belief system and use that as the Diplomatic Answer. Also consider what Christ says about Heaven... Memorize a Bible passage and/or a psalm passage concerning the passing of a loved one. Make sure what you choose is fairly neutral in its tone. If someone continues to needle at you--- simply restate your Diplomatic Answer until they go away and leave you be. Then, when in a moment of privacy speak directly to your Grandmother in a way that comes from your HEART and be with her in full attention. This is how I have handled these situations with success.

The key is to console, sidestep theological discussions, and do so with Grace, Dignity, Honor and Love.

Also start sending out the intention that everything will go smoothly and your Grandmother will be comforted in her time of grieving.

Hugs--

fairyfarmgirl

[Questioner]

Beautifully put, ffg.

[Ali Quadir]

Dear Lavazza, my condoleances. I can understand you're apprehensive about these talks.

Forgive me for being not that informed about your customs, I understand you will be a pall bearer but not scheduled to speak in any official manner and your worries lie mainly with the unofficial talks that are sure to arise. I respond from this understanding I realize I could be wrong. I'm the guy that thought questioner had an alligator in his washing machine.

Maybe that's also the easy way out. If people want to talk about religion. You can share the thought that since this is a funeral with many people of various religions involved, and religion can be such a hot topic, it would be disrespectful to go into a discussion of that nature. You come off as someone sensitive to the situation. You can avoid trouble while at the same time giving the impression that you are not excluding them from your opinions.

The problem with the situation is that even in the best of circumstances your understanding is going to be far out for at least a few. Maybe others will understand. But you'd have those few to contend with. It's a big day, it's okay to take a step back.

If you do wish to talk without revealing too much, ask them what they believe. Empathize the things you agree with. Console their fears, remind them of God's greatness. And that he sees us with more compassion than we see ourselves. Perhaps a scientifically minded atheist would like to hear that the true miracle lies in the fact that we have lived at all considering all the fuzz with universal constants. (You're still confronting them with the mystery, they just won't know it.)

But the biggest truth I think is that in these occasions people really want to talk. Often it will be the case that if you don't respond to their talk with more talk but with listening they're going to appreciate that. It's what shrinks do

Sharing makes a big emotional difference to people. So just allow them to share and they probably won't notice you're not sharing that much yourself.

The real secret of atheism versus theism is that neither party can prove their point. This is the great equalizer. You have to go deep into philosophy for it but the greatest minds of the world have not answered this question and they have tried for millenia. Neither can be proven and both can be true. It's a great mystery and we know no way to tackle it, other than make a lot of different models.

[Shemaya]

My condolences also, Lavazza, to you and your family.

What good advice you have gotten so far!

The only thing I would add is to just be yourself, openhearted and open minded, kind and humble as you are.

No need to get into any debates or arguments especially if you are not comfortable with it. Religion is definitely one of those topics that set people afire....and it's good to keep a comforting and calm energy at a funeral. Your Grandmother will really appreciate it if you are fully present for her.

I think it would be great if you are able to fully participate in the ceremony and service, to sing with the hymns, and respond with the congregation.

L&L

[Aaron]

When people are in a fragile, emotional state like at a funeral, even your calm, knowing presence will be an incredible service to them.

Remember that you create your own reality. Going into this particular catalyst, you know that it will be possible to interact with people on a green ray or yellow ray level, etc. If you are at ease with the situation and intent on speaking from your heart, then when someone comes to talk to you, youll know just what to say. You should know when looking back on a conversation whether or not he exchange was of yellow or green ray. The process is easier said than done though. :p

I have to say that I would probably approach the situation from the angle that ahktu suggested. You're not required to give anything, (unless I've misread your post) so don't stress yourself out because you feel like you should have this enlightening information to give.

Maybe you can go into it with he mindset of focusing on what good can come from he situation in regards to your sfamily members that will be present.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Brittany]

I'm the guy that thought questioner had an alligator in his washing machine.

I thought it was a man in black in the closet. XD

[Lavazza]

Wow, what wonderful responses. Thank you all so much! We truly do have something special at this forum.

My mother's brother passed away this weekend as well.

I'm sorry for your loss as well, Gemini. When it rains it pours...

I usually just tell people that I "believe in all religions" and believe that each should be allowed to follow the path that works best for them. If someone asks with an open mind and honestly wants to know what I believe, I have no problem telling them the complete truth.

I think this is the way to go for me... I actually do attend a Unitarian Universalist church, so speaking to the validity of all religions is actually quite accurate. This may still offend some of the more dogmatic family members, but I guess I can't accommodate everyone. I've also thought about saying something like "I believe that what Jesus said is Truth", which is also a true statement coming from me.

I would be ready to say something like this: I feel at peace when I think about grandfather's spirit now in a larger life. But rather than talking about my religious beliefs, which we can't prove for sure, let's talk about grandfather's life. Let's use today to honor what we remember of his earthly life. He was always beloved to me because of the way he...

Thank you Questioner. I hope I can say something that elegant on the spot, if need be!

The key is to console, sidestep theological discussions, and do so with Grace, Dignity, Honor and Love.

Wow Fairy- great words of advice, thank you! I am not overly familiar with the Bible (reading it is on my to-do list). Can you please offer some recommended quotes, assuming you are familiar? What are the Christ Loving Evangelical Ministers saying?

Forgive me for being not that informed about your customs, I understand you will be a pall bearer but not scheduled to speak in any official manner and your worries lie mainly with the unofficial talks that are sure to arise. I respond from this understanding I realize I could be wrong. I'm the guy that thought questioner had an alligator in his washing machine.

Hello Ali, no worries, you did read me correctly. As a pall bearer (one of six) I will not have an official speaking roll in the ceremony, just the aid of helping carrying the casket (something which I feel is a great honor, by the way). However, I do have a problem with my air conditioner... I suspect there may be rabid monkeys in there, not sure. Can you help me investigate?

If you do wish to talk without revealing too much, ask them what they believe. Empathize the things you agree with. Console their fears, remind them of God's greatness. And that he sees us with more compassion than we see ourselves. Perhaps a scientifically minded atheist would like to hear that the true miracle lies in the fact that we have lived at all considering all the fuzz with universal constants. (You're still confronting them with the mystery, they just won't know it.)

But the biggest truth I think is that in these occasions people really want to talk. Often it will be the case that if you don't respond to their talk with more talk but with listening they're going to appreciate that. It's what shrinks do Wink ... Sharing makes a big emotional difference to people. So just allow them to share and they probably won't notice you're not sharing that much yourself.

More excellent advice. I would much rather agree with my family members than disagree. Lately I've been mentally challenging myself to find at least one valid thing that I agree with in what anyone says. I can almost always find it, even if it's buried deep in things I disagree with. It's a truly heart-opening exercise when you realize that everyone has something true to say. But anyways- in the case of the upcoming funeral event, this is a great thing to be mindful of. And in the case of agreeing with the atheist ideas, there's a lot I could delve in to there. Like the fact that the atoms that make up a human brain are just ever so slightly different than the atoms that make a rock. It's an amazing world we live in, no matter what place you view it from, eh?

The real secret of atheism versus theism is that neither party can prove their point. This is the great equalizer. You have to go deep into philosophy for it but the greatest minds of the world have not answered this question and they have tried for millenia. Neither can be proven and both can be true. It's a great mystery and we know no way to tackle it, other than make a lot of different models.

This is so true, although there are always those on both sides of the argument who erroneously believe that their side is proven. Alas for human frailty and ego.

The only thing I would add is to just be yourself, openhearted and open minded, kind and humble as you are.....and it's good to keep a comforting and calm energy at a funeral. Your Grandmother will really appreciate it if you are fully present for her.

Thank you Shemaya. This is definitely my goal. And thanks for calling me open-minded, I really try (not always too well, ha!)

Remember that you create your own reality. Going into this particular catalyst, you know that it will be possible to interact with people on a green ray or yellow ray level, etc. If you are at ease with the situation and intent on speaking from your heart, then when someone comes to talk to you, youll know just what to say. You should know when looking back on a conversation whether or not he exchange was of yellow or green ray. The process is easier said than done though. Tongue

Thanks Aaron. I appreciate the reminder about keeping my mentality "green ray" in nature, this is a great tip. It is really hard sometimes, yes. If I can mentally ask myself "Is what I am about to say coming from my Heart?" I will be in good shape. It brings to mind the often quoted question/statement Ra gave "Where is the love in the moment?". On a related note- I just ordered a bumper sticker for my car yesterday. Actually the first bumper sticker I've ever purchased... here it is:

I have to say that I would probably approach the situation from the angle that ahktu suggested. You're not required to give anything, (unless I've misread your post) so don't stress yourself out because you feel like you should have this enlightening information to give.

You did read correctly, I am not required to speak to the group. It probably came out sounding that way because that's how it feels inside regardless. After that incident with my uncle in 2002, I've always been a little cautious / stressed out when interacting with my strictly religious kin. So in a sense this thread will hopefully be just an exercise in learn/teaching for me and not actually require a practical exam. I certainly have done a lot of learning.

Thanks again so much to everyone here! Your comments have been heart-felt and loving, and I am very appreciative.

Love and Light,
~Lavazza

[fairyfarmgirl]

I am not familar with what Christ Loving Evangelical Minsters are saying as I am a UU as well.

But, here is what comes to mind:

The mysteries of God can only be understood by God. Thus, I will leave the judgement of my beloved Grandfather to that of God. In the spirit of his life I extend my Love to you and my Grandfather whose dearly beloved Soul has passed to the hands of God. Let us remember (insert name used for Grandfather) as he was in life. As let us remember the Love Christ showed us all in how to live in the spirit of the Loving Father, God
--fairyfarmgirl

A psalm that comes to mind is Psalm 23.

Bible verses from http://encouragingbiblequotes.com/versescomforta.html

Isaiah 54:10
"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed," says the LORD, who has compassion on you.

Matthew 5:4
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

1 Peter 5:6-7
Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.


I offer my deepest condolences in your time of grieving, Lavazza. I embrace you with Love as you journey forth into this experience of letting go. Hugs--- fairy

As a side note: In our family we plant a tree when someone passes to the realms beyond our everyday seeing. That is where we place our Love and traverse the grief process at the base of a tree. A tree respresents the seasons of life to my immediate family (hubby, I and kids). I am very familar with Christ Loving Evangelical peoples as I grew up in such a church as a Lutheran and then Congregationalist. I am now a UU with a heavy influence of Nature Based Beliefs. --fairy

[@ndy]

I'm sorry to here of the loss of your grandfather too.

I love the sticker

I was going to suggest just being you.
I don’t disagree with the advice here but I don't think you can plan for an occasion such as a funeral.
People are open in a way that they may not normally be.
I think often the feelings of family, love, celebration of a life and the loss of a friend bring people together in such a close way that theological/religious discussions and words can almost seem sterile.
Trust your self to find the words/feelings to comunicate the love in you

[Lorna]

I hope today went as well as it could have for you and your family Lavazza

A dear aunt of mine passed on the 14th and her funeral was the 20th. She was a devout catholic all her life and confided her experiences to her priest shortly before her death, which he expressed at the mass. She told him she had moved from understanding the Christ of Calvary to, in recent months, experiencing a Cosmic Christ. The priest didn't really understand what she meant but I did

I listened to the service with a smile on my face, so happy that her faith had blossomed in that way and that she had been so spiritually content at the end of her life. She had led a very church orientated life up until that point, she held a divinity degree and took the eucharist to house bound members of the church, but her spiritual life expanded tremendously, expanded beyond the walls of the church, towards the end of her life. There was no sadness at her funeral.

Whatever the beliefs of your various family members I hope there comes a point in their lives when they can see and experience faith beyond the boundaries that they have placed on their spiritual experience. Perhaps the reinforcing, for themselves, of those boundaries, through discussions of the type you have experienced in the past, is simply their way of responding to the mystery of death when they encounter it directly?

[Lavazza]

Hey everyone, (and Lorna- thank you for your post, I really enjoyed it!)

I'm happy to report that everything went very smoothly on Friday. I did not have any discussions about religion or even feel that it was in any way a subliminal topic when talking with my extended family members. Hurray! Whatever proactive religious tendencies my loved ones have has either lost its appeal in general or has lost its appeal at a ceremony such as a funeral. I think it was probably a combination of the two. That goes for me as well- obviously since no one asked me about my beliefs I did not espouse any of them, but it also became so very obvious how inappropriate such a conversation like that would be at a funeral. Even entertaining the thought about discussing my beliefs that day just left me cold.

I also have to say that the funeral was an amazingly (and surprisingly) emotional experience for me. Despite my intellectual knowledge about my grandfather's eternal soul, I found myself grieving quite easily at the sight of his remaining vehicle. It was almost a biological reaction, which took me off-guard. I could barely keep it together during the family-only prayer in which my now widowed grandmother remarked how beautiful all her children and grandchildren were. And I was only able to sing through a croaking voice during the religious songs that we offered. And again during the 21 gun salute and playing of taps by the local military representatives (my grandfather being a WW2 vet) was amazing powerful. But again, it was strange because I wouldn't call myself "sad" about his passing really... I have a hard time putting my finger on it. Closer would be to call it an "honoring" I think. Of my memories of him, of who he was, of what he did and what he stood for.

The whole experience was amazingly rejuvenating I must say, even though I was physically exhausted afterwards. And especially so being in a group of people who are expressing the same. An almost magical experience.

[Questioner]

Lavazza, I am glad to learn about your experience.

My father was also a WWII vet. I suspect there was some kind of military honor for him at the military ceremony. As my family of origin prevented my knowing of any such ceremony, this is one of the unanswered questions of my life. From various hints I suspect his remains were cremated and a ceremonial casket was interred. I continue to believe that being allowed to know the details of this circumstance would help me complete frozen grieving, in turn bringing some healing into my life.

This is one of the situations for which my family of origin insisted, before all contact was cut off, that I am so outrageously hostile, indifferent, ungrateful, selfish, nasty, crazy, and immoral that it is impossible to tell me what I did wrong, or to provide any way I could make amends.

It is helpful for me to learn about how an intact family can help each other through such an experience. I continue to struggle on a daily basis as to why I have to learn about such opportunities second hand. Thank you for sharing your magical experience.

[Lavazza]

Questioner... I am so sorry my brother. Those are some hard catalysts to deal with, no doubt about that. I recall from your previous threads that your immediate family had a significant level of dysfunction particularity with regard to your mother, but I didn't know that they regarded you with such hostility. If it is of any help, please know that you are regarded with love here. You seem like a very well balanced, loving and intelligent person from all I have read from you- that is a huge feat for anyone to accomplish even if they are sponsored by the best parents. Kudos to you, my friend.

Your father is, I have no doubt, sending you lots of love and light each day that you continue in your incarnational journey. You've probably already seen me recommend this book to others, but you might investigate 'Journey of Souls' by Michael Newton. It's a complete description of our in-between incarnation experiences as told by several witnesses speaking from a regressed state. One in particular case may resonate with you, in which this person met with an entity who played the role of an abusive parent a few lives back. There was much forgiving and learning done by all.

Many times, I believe, we choose to put ourselves in close proximity to people who will hurt us in some way along our life path. These choices make little sense to us once we are engaged in the role, but the harvest of experience you gain from such hard times must truly be worth the work. I suspect this is true of your experiences- you certainly come off as one who has the mantle of great wisdom. I do not intentionally mean to elevate you to Yoda status But what I say is sincere for what it is worth.

Yours in L/L,
Lavazza

[Shemaya]

Hi Questioner,

I am sorry to hear of your family situation.

I know how painful it it to be a family scapegoat, the one who is blamed for all the hurt and pain in the family. Experiencing all the different emotions you yourself have, and those being projected onto you by others.

It is a difficult journey to take as a soul, wanting to express yourself purely as love and light, and feeling anger about a situation, having difficulty breaking through the anger and grief.

It a process of forgiveness again and again, of others and yourself. It helps me to remember in Spirit we are one, we are love and light, our bodies are part of a grand play and illusion.

Last night I was reading the section of AWH on forgiveness, around page 205. I appreciate Carla's wisdom, it it so soothing.

Best wishes to you brother, hang in there. You are so fully and completely loved, you are supported by GOD. All around you, available any time you open to it

[fairyfarmgirl]

I Bless your HEART with LOVE, Q. I Bless everyone's HEARTS with LOVE!

Do you know where you father is buried, Q? If not research it--- there are records kept where people are buried as well as obituaries. Perhaps a journey to his gravesite would be healing to you. There you could lay flowers and speak from your HEART.

In our family, we plant a tree whereever we can in honor of a loved one. Sometimes this is in a park. Sometimes on a friend's land. (we have always rented). Planting a Tree is a way to create an opening to healing and to create a marker for you to go to when wishing to speak to your loved on. As we plant the tree, we say aloud to our passed loved one that this is good place to meet us to speak with us if they so wish.

Pinpointing the issue at hand is key though. Is the issue with your mother or is it with missing the opportunity to say goodbye to you father in a way that you deem appropriate? If it is with your mother, forgiveness is in order. Forgiveness will dissolve the cord you have to her and in doing so relieve the pain you are feeling. Feelings are from the mind. Emotions are from the HEART.

One is born of the Soul: Love emotions and attributes.

The other is born of the Mind: Fear Feelings and its attributes.

I am very familar with being a family and community scapegoat. It was not until I returned to the place of all that happened and forgave mySelf and others that suddenly all the pain was released. The anxiety I felt incrementally abated over time. The power of forgiveness is real and tangible.

I Bless your HEART with LOVE as your Journey back to yourSelf!

Love--

fairyfarmgirl

[Questioner]

Thank you Lavazza. I have heard of the book before - perhaps from you - but never investigated it myself.

---

Thank you Shemaya. What is AWH?

---

Thank you ffg. Both issues are present. I would like to talk with you some more personally about the concept of forgiveness.

It didn't occur to me to find out if the records are online. Just found out that they are. Now I have the section and site number. Both health and financial problems have kept me from visiting to find out. At least I now know.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Road trips are very healing if done with good company (sometime that is alone or with an animal companion--- I have a friend who travels with her hedgehog) or with good human company! Sometimes the best road trips are on a bus or on a train. I prefer rail travel as there is always the observation car, dining car or sleeping car to explore and there is no driving required and lots of time to think, reflect, connect with Spirit and see the scenery.

Some of the most profound road trips are taken during the planning stages. It is the process of planning a trip that creates the healing journey.

--fairyfarmgirl