Did Entities Eat Meat Before The Veil ?

[Diana]

You speak of choice, but my choice of polarity is clear. I am service to self. What is my deepest desire? To polarize positively. Think about that. If I am serving myself, and I want to serve others, who am I serving?

Service to others must include service to self, otherwise there is separation. If there is separation in your own mind, I would guess you are not polarizing positively.

[Matt1]

To much effort is put on polarities of consciousness, i doubt that Ra would have intended for such focus on it. If we have an understanding that we are unity, it doesn't matter if one is being service to self or others, because the indvidual will interpret the experience in a way that they desire.

[Aion]

You speak of choice, but my choice of polarity is clear. I am service to self. What is my deepest desire? To polarize positively. Think about that. If I am serving myself, and I want to serve others, who am I serving?

Service to others must include service to self, otherwise there is separation. If there is separation in your own mind, I would guess you are not polarizing positively.

Service to self must eventually also include service to others, because one cannot serve others without serving the self.

[Minyatur]

Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

I do believe this to be the most efficient mean of polarization.

Trying to be something other than what you are or thinking you should be different then what you are is counter-productive and won't be much polarizing in any way. Working with what is to experience, analyze and understand it, then provides the ability to transmute it into something different or in a way.. see the change happen in self.

Having an open heart does not mean everyone feels the exact same way as everyone else. if it was so none could grow in love. An open heart does incarnate unconditional love but it is a love which is unconditional toward it's conditions. 

[Sabou]

No one NEEDS to be raped. That is a choice as all things are. The individual who thinks they need rape could choose to forgive her- or himself. The soul may desire it for whatever reason (perhaps in lieu of forgiveness), but it is not something that HAS to happen. Likewise, no other HAS to do the raping. The would-be rapist may possess a desire to do this, but another choice could be made instead. 

There seems to be some idea here that "the Creator" must experience all things. And we humans in 3D are the pawns to do it. Screw that. I disagree. We experience what we choose, that's all. If there is a Creator who desires to experience itself, and sets it up so that all manner of vile things are done in order to satisfy this, then for my part I rebel. This is very close to the idea of the Christian God who is forceful, jealous and vindictive.

I do understand the idea of containing the all, and the shadow. We may have the potential for anything infinitum. But to say that someone must be the rapist is a stretch; someone may desire to be, or want to be of that service, but I do not think it is a mandatory or forced thing that somewhere in the universe someone MUST do everything. It's not possible anyway, because of the concept of infinity. It's impossible to experience all things in an infinite universe.

This thought has been weighing heavy on my conscious lately... 

 

[Jade]

This is not about individual polarity at all, for me. It's about the global consciousness. Does anyone here think that slaughterhouses, factory farms, etc will still be around when we are well-swung into 4D? So if one wants to help usher in a new Earth, why participate in structures that are so very separatist and 3D? I mean, obviously that question is hypothetical - we are all here to participate in the separation of 3D, but as Wanderers we are also here to help make the transition to 4D+ smoother. I try to follow the 'be the change you wish to see' mantra as much as possible - I don't meditate for a better frame of mind, and go out into the world every day and smile at and be gracious with people, and give money to the homeless, and not eat animals because it polarizes me - I do this because I want to alleviate the overall suffering of the planet, and help expedite its transition into its new being. I understand that it's still possible to participate in consumption of animals and still help eliminate suffering, but to say one is removed from the responsibility of the tortured/murdered lifeforms because they merely purchase them at the grocery store is a huge disconnect.

So obviously, I don't think that everyone who eats meat is service to self oriented by any means. In fact, I think it's a noble self-service if you truly honestly believe you need meat to be healthy and functional, and you consume it: you are doing what you truly think is best for your body. I think really what's going on is that most people are engaging in unconscious catalyst when they eat, as most people are doing with most things they do in a day. But, we truly can use any catalyst for any type of polarization/work, I do believe that. I just love our little cow and chicken buddies so much I can't help but feel like I should speak my mind on the topic when the path has been opened before me. And especially when people deny a cow's ability to read 3D awareness - when I see people make statements like that about animals (or about eating them because they are lower consciousness), I try to imagine a step up in densities, a 4th density looking at humans and thinking "Look at them, they are unable to reach 4D awareness with their simple little bodies and brains, their beingness is ours for the plunder! Oh wait - that one special one IS close to 4D - he's cool, let him be."

[Minyatur]

No one NEEDS to be raped. That is a choice as all things are. The individual who thinks they need rape could choose to forgive her- or himself. The soul may desire it for whatever reason (perhaps in lieu of forgiveness), but it is not something that HAS to happen. Likewise, no other HAS to do the raping. The would-be rapist may possess a desire to do this, but another choice could be made instead. 

There seems to be some idea here that "the Creator" must experience all things. And we humans in 3D are the pawns to do it. Screw that. I disagree. We experience what we choose, that's all. If there is a Creator who desires to experience itself, and sets it up so that all manner of vile things are done in order to satisfy this, then for my part I rebel. This is very close to the idea of the Christian God who is forceful, jealous and vindictive.

I do understand the idea of containing the all, and the shadow. We may have the potential for anything infinitum. But to say that someone must be the rapist is a stretch; someone may desire to be, or want to be of that service, but I do not think it is a mandatory or forced thing that somewhere in the universe someone MUST do everything. It's not possible anyway, because of the concept of infinity. It's impossible to experience all things in an infinite universe.

This thought has been weighing heavy on my conscious lately... 

 

In my view, infinity is composed of infinity. As such, each and every awareness is a strand of infinite experience of the Creator of Himself among infinite others strands. There is infinite levels at which these strands can exist to create infinite experience at every single level.

Our paths never ends and only through never ending can we be a part of infinity. 

____

To go back on what Diana said, the Creator is not forceful, jealous and vindictive. Rebelling against the Creator is simply being the Creator rebelling against Himself. We exist within an awareness that is playing/exploring being each and every single one of us in an attempt to be something. He creates an infinite creation within Himself to not be eternal void. Every joy is the Creator's joy and every pain is the Creator's pain.

[Minyatur]

This is not about individual polarity at all, for me. It's about the global consciousness. Does anyone here think that slaughterhouses, factory farms, etc will still be around when we are well-swung into 4D? So if one wants to help usher in a new Earth, why participate in structures that are so very separatist and 3D? I mean, obviously that question is hypothetical - we are all here to participate in the separation of 3D, but as Wanderers we are also here to help make the transition to 4D+ smoother. I try to follow the 'be the change you wish to see' mantra as much as possible - I don't meditate for a better frame of mind, and go out into the world every day and smile at and be gracious with people, and give money to the homeless, and not eat animals because it polarizes me - I do this because I want to alleviate the overall suffering of the planet, and help expedite its transition into its new being. I understand that it's still possible to participate in consumption of animals and still help eliminate suffering, but to say one is removed from the responsibility of the tortured/murdered lifeforms because they merely purchase them at the grocery store is a huge disconnect.

So obviously, I don't think that everyone who eats meat is service to self oriented by any means. In fact, I think it's a noble self-service if you truly honestly believe you need meat to be healthy and functional, and you consume it: you are doing what you truly think is best for your body. I think really what's going on is that most people are engaging in unconscious catalyst when they eat, as most people are doing with most things they do in a day. But, we truly can use any catalyst for any type of polarization/work, I do believe that. I just love our little cow and chicken buddies so much I can't help but feel like I should speak my mind on the topic when the path has been opened before me. And especially when people deny a cow's ability to read 3D awareness - when I see people make statements like that about animals (or about eating them because they are lower consciousness), I try to imagine a step up in densities, a 4th density looking at humans and thinking "Look at them, they are unable to reach 4D awareness with their simple little bodies and brains, their beingness is ours for the plunder! Oh wait - that one special one IS close to 4D - he's cool, let him be."

Well that still depends on how you view the cause and effect of your acts. You could in a way see every act of kindness as creating in turn an equivalent act of hatred to be performed by an other-self.

This is a part of the thoth tablet : The Key to Above and Bellow, which I think describes neatly this concept : 

The consciousness below thee is ever-expanding 

in different ways from those known to thee. 
Aye, it, though in space-time below thee, 
is ever growing in ways that are different from 
those that were part of the ways of thine own. 

For know that it grows as a result of thy growth 
but not in the same way that thou didst grow. 
The growth that thou had and have in the present 
have brought into being a cause and effect. 
No consciousness follows the path of those before it, 
else all would be repetition and vain. 

Each consciousness in the cycle it exists in 
follows its own path to the ultimate goal. 
Each plays its part in the Plan of the Cosmos. 
Each plays its part in the ultimate end. 
The farther the cycle, the greater its 
knowledge and ability to blend the Law of the whole.

It pictures very well what the exploration of infinity and what many-ness implies.

Ra has said that before the veil there were worlds of light within wich the STS polarity was not thought of. Those who desired to live in worlds filled with light where darkness was not thought of, by taking the experiences brought into effect the need of something different to be explored. Creating the need of the experience of darkness for other consciousnesses they are not in their awareness.

[Sabou]

In my view, infinity is composed of infinity. As such, each and every awareness is a strand of infinite experience of the Creator of Himself among infinite others strands. There is infinite levels at which these strands can exist to create infinite experience at every single level.

Our paths never ends and only through never ending can we be a part of infinity. 

so, in your view, one strand can still be infinite whilst not containing another strands direct experience? 

[Minyatur]

In my view, infinity is composed of infinity. As such, each and every awareness is a strand of infinite experience of the Creator of Himself among infinite others strands. There is infinite levels at which these strands can exist to create infinite experience at every single level.

Our paths never ends and only through never ending can we be a part of infinity. 

so, in your view, one strand can still be infinite whilst not containing another strands direct experience? 

That is what I believe. Infinity beings composed of infinite different strands of experience of infinity. The OIC being what emcompasses and fully is each and every strands, even those that will never connect with each other.
Emcompassing All that is, whether it is in present, past or future. It is the Intelligent Infinity, what has experienced All in a single eternal present moment.

[Monica]

Obviously, people eat meat everyday, oblivious to the suffering that occurred in getting them their meat.

But, once the person becomes aware of how much the animals suffer, then the only way to continue supporting that is to harden their heart. In a court of law this is called 'callous disregard' - to continue to do something, while knowing that it causes harm to others.

If you think I'm wrong, then please explain how one could knowingly and directly support the torture and killing of a human child, just for pleasure, with an open heart. The principle is the same.

...

Being part of the societies we exist within is pretty much directly supporting sufferings of every human life that has been shattered by it. That includes many children's death.

That's INdirect. I specifically asked for explanation of directly supporting the torture and killing of a human child just for pleasure, with an open heart.

I do this by seeking to understand, accept and love this reality I exist within. Even in it's twisted ways I wouldn't have created myself.

We all contributed to this reality. The question now is: Do we want to continue to create it? Knowingly, directly, unnecessarily supporting an industry that causes suffering, IS creating that reality!

...

[Monica]

No one NEEDS to be raped. That is a choice as all things are. The individual who thinks they need rape could choose to forgive her- or himself. The soul may desire it for whatever reason (perhaps in lieu of forgiveness), but it is not something that HAS to happen. Likewise, no other HAS to do the raping. The would-be rapist may possess a desire to do this, but another choice could be made instead. 

There seems to be some idea here that "the Creator" must experience all things. And we humans in 3D are the pawns to do it. Screw that. I disagree. We experience what we choose, that's all. If there is a Creator who desires to experience itself, and sets it up so that all manner of vile things are done in order to satisfy this, then for my part I rebel. This is very close to the idea of the Christian God who is forceful, jealous and vindictive.

I do understand the idea of containing the all, and the shadow. We may have the potential for anything infinitum. But to say that someone must be the rapist is a stretch; someone may desire to be, or want to be of that service, but I do not think it is a mandatory or forced thing that somewhere in the universe someone MUST do everything. It's not possible anyway, because of the concept of infinity. It's impossible to experience all things in an infinite universe.

Agreed! But here's the thing: Even IF that were true - that some entities need to rape and others need to be raped - that does NOT mean that WE must choose to be the rapist!!!

Several people have repeatedly used this line of reasoning to attempt to justify eating animals, because "maybe they need to experience pain, torture and slaughter". Ok fine but even IF that is true, that is exactly like the woman who 'needs' to be raped! Does that mean WE need to rape her? Does that mean WE need to torture and kill the animals? (or pay someone to do it for us?)

Whether people or animals 'need' or 'choose' to be tortured, raped and killed is irrelevant! Because even IF they do, that does NOT make it ok for US to do that to them!!! THAT is the point that keeps getting missed!

...

[Monica]

To much effort is put on polarities of consciousness, i doubt that Ra would have intended for such focus on it. If we have an understanding that we are unity, it doesn't matter if one is being service to self or others, because the indvidual will interpret the experience in a way that they desire.

Maybe so. But neither did Ra likely intend that we throw the concepts of polarity out the window, in favor of an 'anything goes' mentality.

...

[Monica]

Service to self must eventually also include service to others, because one cannot serve others without serving the self.

You logic is backwards. Or maybe you just got the polarities mixed up.

Service to others must eventually also include service to self, because one cannot serve others without serving the self. <<==is a true statement.

But

Service to self must eventually also include service to others, because one cannot serve others without serving the self. <<== The first part of your statement is false, plus it doesn't match the 2nd part of your statement.

Here's why:

Service to self must eventually also include service to others, <<== is NOT true. It is entirely possible to serve self without serving others, and in fact that is the very definition of the STS path! This is a viable path, up until mid-6D.

The 2nd part of your statement:

because one cannot serve others without serving the self. <<== applies to the STO path, NOT the STS path!

Service to self doesn't need to include anything else. That's the whole point! It is the path of separation. Whereas, service to others also includes service to self, because it is the path of Oneness, wholeness.

...

[Monica]

Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

I do believe this to be the most efficient mean of polarization.

Trying to be something other than what you are or thinking you should be different then what you are is counter-productive and won't be much polarizing in any way. Working with what is to experience, analyze and understand it, then provides the ability to transmute it into something different or in a way.. see the change happen in self.

Having an open heart does not mean everyone feels the exact same way as everyone else. if it was so none could grow in love. An open heart does incarnate unconditional love but it is a love which is unconditional toward it's conditions. 

Not sure what your point is here. Can you explain how this is relevant to the topic?

You left out most of that quote. Here's the rest:

18.5 Questioner: Thank you. I have a question here from Jim that I will read verbatim: “Much of the mystic tradition of seeking on Earth holds that belief that the individual self must be erased or obliterated and the material world ignored for an entity to reach ‘nirvana,’ as it’s called, or enlightenment. What is the proper role of the individual self and its worldly activities in aiding an entity to grow more into the Law of One?”
Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

The orientation develops due to analysis of desire. These desires become more and more distorted towards conscious application of love/light as the entity furnishes itself with distilled experience. We have found it to be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires, except to suggest the imagination rather than the carrying out in the physical plane, as you call it, of those desires not consonant with the Law of One; this preserving the primal distortion of free will.

The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.

All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.

It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.

You also left out numerous quotes regarding choice. The word choice appears 65 times in the Material! Apparently Ra thinks choice is important.

Ra advised against overcoming, yet advised in favor of moving away from.

What is the difference between overcoming and moving away from?

Choice!

...

[Minyatur]

Obviously, people eat meat everyday, oblivious to the suffering that occurred in getting them their meat.

But, once the person becomes aware of how much the animals suffer, then the only way to continue supporting that is to harden their heart. In a court of law this is called 'callous disregard' - to continue to do something, while knowing that it causes harm to others.

If you think I'm wrong, then please explain how one could knowingly and directly support the torture and killing of a human child, just for pleasure, with an open heart. The principle is the same.

...

Being part of the societies we exist within is pretty much directly supporting sufferings of every human life that has been shattered by it. That includes many children's death.

That's INdirect. I specifically asked for explanation of directly supporting the torture and killing of a human child just for pleasure, with an open heart.

I do this by seeking to understand, accept and love this reality I exist within. Even in it's twisted ways I wouldn't have created myself.

We all contributed to this reality. The question now is: Do we want to continue to create it? Knowingly, directly, unnecessarily supporting an industry that causes suffering, IS creating that reality!

...

You keep calling it direct but I have already stated I do not think it is in another thread.

I do not think you are the judge of what is necessary or unecessary nor do we agree on what love is nor what the purpose and meaning of suffering is. 

I already said I acknowledge and accept the current system, as such I have no strong desires to avoid being in contact with it nor desires to change it otherwise.

[Monica]

This is not about individual polarity at all, for me. It's about the global consciousness. Does anyone here think that slaughterhouses, factory farms, etc will still be around when we are well-swung into 4D? So if one wants to help usher in a new Earth, why participate in structures that are so very separatist and 3D? I mean, obviously that question is hypothetical - we are all here to participate in the separation of 3D, but as Wanderers we are also here to help make the transition to 4D+ smoother. I try to follow the 'be the change you wish to see' mantra as much as possible - I don't meditate for a better frame of mind, and go out into the world every day and smile at and be gracious with people, and give money to the homeless, and not eat animals because it polarizes me - I do this because I want to alleviate the overall suffering of the planet, and help expedite its transition into its new being. I understand that it's still possible to participate in consumption of animals and still help eliminate suffering, but to say one is removed from the responsibility of the tortured/murdered lifeforms because they merely purchase them at the grocery store is a huge disconnect.

So obviously, I don't think that everyone who eats meat is service to self oriented by any means. In fact, I think it's a noble self-service if you truly honestly believe you need meat to be healthy and functional, and you consume it: you are doing what you truly think is best for your body. I think really what's going on is that most people are engaging in unconscious catalyst when they eat, as most people are doing with most things they do in a day. But, we truly can use any catalyst for any type of polarization/work, I do believe that. I just love our little cow and chicken buddies so much I can't help but feel like I should speak my mind on the topic when the path has been opened before me. And especially when people deny a cow's ability to read 3D awareness - when I see people make statements like that about animals (or about eating them because they are lower consciousness), I try to imagine a step up in densities, a 4th density looking at humans and thinking "Look at them, they are unable to reach 4D awareness with their simple little bodies and brains, their beingness is ours for the plunder! Oh wait - that one special one IS close to 4D - he's cool, let him be."

Well said! You nailed it! All of it, but especially the bolded parts.

I would add to that, that this is a conversation among self-professed Wanderers...and these meat threads consistently get a lot of hits. So, apparently, there is an effort to shift from unconscious to conscious...an effort to clear the disconnect.

...

[AnthroHeart]

Are you THE ONE?

[Monica]

You keep calling it direct but I have already stated I do not think it is in another thread.

Look, there is a difference between the words direct and indirect. I'm Not making this up! It's simple definitions of words.

If a woman dumps her boyfriend and he flies into a rage and goes postal, she indirectly affected his emotional state, but she did Not directly cause him to go shoot people! No court of law would ever find her guilty of murder because she didn't directly kill anyone. Her involvement was only indirect, and even then, the final choice was up to the boyfriend. The boyfriend will be found guilty of murder in a court of law, Not his ex-girlfriend just for dumping him! That is an example of indirect.

Here is an example of direct:

A man pays an assassin to kill his ex-wife. If caught, both the assassin (the man who actually pulled the trigger) AND the man who paid him will be found guilty. BOTH of them. Why? Because they both directly caused the murder of the wife.

In industry, it's a simple matter of supply and demand. Each time we buy meat/dairy from the grocery store, we are directly supporting an industry that directly causes the rape, torture and killing of sentient beings. Whether we physically slit the cow's throat or not makes No difference; we are supporting the cow's rape/torture/slaughter just the same. It is direct, because we are directly supporting the industry. The industry continues to expand and rape/torture/slaughter more animals in direct response to demand; ie. how many people are buying the product. The only way to Not directly participate is to quit buying the product!

I do not think you are the judge of what is necessary or unecessary

I'm not. Medical researchers already decided that, Not me.

nor do we agree on what love is nor what the purpose and meaning of suffering is. 

Actually, we do agree on what the purpose and meaning of suffering is. I have never disagreed with you on that point. (Not sure about the love part though.)

The point I disagreed on was whether we should knowingly and directly contribute to said suffering. That is where we disagree. I contend that knowingly causing suffering is the task of the STS-oriented entity. Am I understanding you correctly that you think it's ok for STO-oriented entities to knowingly and directly cause suffering to sentient other-selves just to satisfy their own desires?

I already said I acknowledge and accept the current system, as such I have no strong desires to avoid being in contact with it nor desires to change it otherwise.

If you eat meat and/or dairy, then you are already in contact with it and supporting its continued existence.

...

[Monica]

Well that still depends on how you view the cause and effect of your acts. You could in a way see every act of kindness as creating in turn an equivalent act of hatred to be performed by an other-self.

The idea that every act of kindness must be 'balanced' by an act of hatred has No basis in the Law of One Material. It perhaps originated in Taoism, and even then, is a corruption/misinterpretation.

Ra has given percentages required for graduation. Notice that they aren't 50/50.

Nowhere in the Material has Ra ever indicated that STS and STO entities are exactly equal, or that love/light is perfectly balanced with darkness.

This idea is based in duality, and stuck in the number 2, numerologically. The idea of 'balance' being dual, fails to take into consideration the higher numbers, let alone other aspects beyond duality.

Hence, I think it's inaccurate to assume that every act of kindness is canceled out by an act of hatred. It doesn't work that way. On the contrary, the STS path is eventually merged back into Oneness, by mid-6D latest.

...

[Minyatur]

Well that still depends on how you view the cause and effect of your acts. You could in a way see every act of kindness as creating in turn an equivalent act of hatred to be performed by an other-self.

The idea that every act of kindness must be 'balanced' by an act of hatred has No basis in the Law of One Material. It perhaps originated in Taoism, and even then, is a corruption/misinterpretation.

Ra has given percentages required for graduation. Notice that they aren't 50/50.

Nowhere in the Material has Ra ever indicated that STS and STO entities are exactly equal, or that love/light is perfectly balanced with darkness.

This idea is based in duality, and stuck in the number 2, numerologically. The idea of 'balance' being dual, fails to take into consideration the higher numbers, let alone other aspects beyond duality.

Hence, I think it's inaccurate to assume that every act of kindness is canceled out by an act of hatred. It doesn't work that way. On the contrary, the STS path is eventually merged back into Oneness, by mid-6D latest.

...

That is not what I meant, I meant that infinity is explored and just like there were many born and molded in light, there will he many born and molded into darkness.

It is not out of balance, just that "newer" emerging consciousness will walk paths that were not taken by their predecessors and existing within simple dull light and love with not much color to it has been overdone and new experiences are created. It never ends and is happening far beyond this reality into which we were born. Within infinity, there is an opposite to your every choices, there is an antithesis to your being, there is everything you can understand but even much more of what you cannot understand.

This duality will be explored on the two sides of it. Unlike many here (from what I have seen), I do believe this Creation's fate is to end in darkness and that is so whether we are still here to witness it or not.

[Monica]

That is not what I meant, I meant that infinity is explored and just like there were many born and molded in light, there will he many born and molded into darkness.

It is not out of balance, just that "newer" emerging consciousness will walk paths that were not taken by their predecessors and existing within simple dull light and love with not much color to it has been overdone and new experiences are created. It never ends and is happening far beyond this reality into which we were born. Within infinity, there is an opposite to your every choices, there is an antithesis to your being, there is everything you can understand but even much more of what you cannot understand.

This duality will be explored on the two sides of it. Unlike many here (from what I have seen), I do believe this Creation's fate is to end in darkness and that is so whether we are still here to witness it or not.

? It still sounds like you're limiting your thinking to duality. 2 is just a number. Numerologically, there is so much more beyond that!

...

[Minyatur]

You keep calling it direct but I have already stated I do not think it is in another thread.

Look, there is a difference between the words direct and indirect. I'm Not making this up! It's simple definitions of words.

If a woman dumps her boyfriend and he flies into a rage and goes postal, she indirectly affected his emotional state, but she did Not directly cause him to go shoot people! No court of law would ever find her guilty of murder because she didn't directly kill anyone. Her involvement was only indirect, and even then, the final choice was up to the boyfriend. The boyfriend will be found guilty of murder in a court of law, Not his ex-girlfriend just for dumping him! That is an example of indirect.

Here is an example of direct:

A man pays an assassin to kill his ex-wife. If caught, both the assassin (the man who actually pulled the trigger) AND the man who paid him will be found guilty. BOTH of them. Why? Because they both directly caused the murder of the wife.

In industry, it's a simple matter of supply and demand. Each time we buy meat/dairy from the grocery store, we are directly supporting an industry that directly causes the rape, torture and killing of sentient beings. Whether we physically slit the cow's throat or not makes No difference; we are supporting the cow's rape/torture/slaughter just the same. It is direct, because we are directly supporting the industry. The industry continues to expand and rape/torture/slaughter more animals in direct response to demand; ie. how many people are buying the product. The only way to Not directly participate is to quit buying the product!

I do not think you are the judge of what is necessary or unecessary

I'm not. Medical researchers already decided that, Not me.

nor do we agree on what love is nor what the purpose and meaning of suffering is. 

Actually, we do agree on what the purpose and meaning of suffering is. I have never disagreed with you on that point. (Not sure about the love part though.)

The point I disagreed on was whether we should knowingly and directly contribute to said suffering. That is where we disagree. I contend that knowingly causing suffering is the task of the STS-oriented entity. Am I understanding you correctly that you think it's ok for STO-oriented entities to knowingly and directly cause suffering to sentient other-selves just to satisfy their own desires?

I already said I acknowledge and accept the current system, as such I have no strong desires to avoid being in contact with it nor desires to change it otherwise.

If you eat meat and/or dairy, then you are already in contact with it and supporting its continued existence.

...

I do not have strong desires for meat nor do I think it is necessary for my body. When I spoke of necessary/unecessary it is by speaking of experience.

I consider my means indirect whether they give small contributions to the industry or not, if this earth was different I would not make any effort to eat meat as I have no strong desire toward it. I see no value in myself being vegan as of now and do not think it'd create anything positive. I do not think it'd save the life of any animals either although with a small possibly. In my ways I have no feeling of infringing upon free will, so I'd hardly consider my ways as polarizing negatively.

Anything can be done by a STO-oriented entity as long as it perceives it in love. Polarity exists in intent and not action and evolution of awareness brings us to reunite both polarities into one. Ra calls it STO, but to move beyond it requires a STO that integrates into itself negative wisdom and that is able to see the beauty in it.

I do not believe the earth to be STS when an earthquake arrives or anything similar, I believe the earth provides what is needed whatever the color it comes in. So to answer your question, I do believe destruction can be offered in love, and I do believe it is one lesson that is to be learned by all.

[Monica]

I do not have strong desires for meat nor do I think it is necessary for my body.

Then I cannot comprehend why you'd want to do something that came from suffering and death, for No good reason.

I consider my means indirect whether they give small contributions to the industry or not, if this earth was different I would not make any effort to eat meat as I have no strong desire toward it. I see no value in myself being vegan as of now and do not think it'd create anything positive. I do not think it'd save the life of any animals either although with a small possibly. In my ways I have no feeling of infringing upon free will, so I'd hardly consider my ways as polarizing negatively.

You won't make a difference. Not today. Not tomorrow. Probably Not next week either.

BUT, collectively, the more of us who go vegan DO make a difference. We DO have an impact on the industry! This is proven. Meat consumption has dropped dramatically. One national news article said that meat consumption has plummeted and this is directly due to raised awareness by vegans in addition to the medical research showing the obvious health benefits of a plant-based diet.

So, respectfully, you are simply mistaken that your choice means nothing and doesn't have any impact. Why do you belittle your contribution? Each person has value. YOU have value!

The power is in the collective. We each contribute to the consensual reality.

In addition to direct supply and demand, which is standard in any industry and cannot be denied, you also have value in the choices you make, in terms of consciousness feeding into the collective consciousness. We live in a holographic universe, and each person - including YOU - does have an impact on the reality we are creating. Not just on a physical level, but on an energetic level.

Anything can be done by a STO-oriented entity as long as it perceives it in love.

Anything? So a pedophile can 'love' his victim and still polarize STO? Well that's great news for pedophiles. They often say that they 'love' little children.

Polarity exists in intent and not action

Why do you leave out action? Of course intent is important. But that doesn't mean that action - choice - has No importance. Both are important.

and evolution of awareness brings us to reunite both polarities into one. Ra calls it STO, but to move beyond it requires a STO that integrates into itself negative wisdom and that is able to see the beauty in it.

The concept of 'beyond polarity' is often confused with the sinkhole of indifference. One must first get past the sinkhole of indifference and choose a polarity before one can go beyond polarity.

I do not believe the earth to be STS when an earthquake arrives or anything similar, I believe the earth provides what is needed whatever the color it comes in. So to answer your question, I do believe destruction can be offered in love, and I do believe it is one lesson that is to be learned by all.

So do you think those billions of animals are being raped/tortured/destroyed in love?

...

[Minyatur]

I do not have strong desires for meat nor do I think it is necessary for my body.

Then I cannot comprehend why you'd want to do something that came from suffering and death, for No good reason.

Because I do accept it's provenance without feeling repulsion as you do.

I consider my means indirect whether they give small contributions to the industry or not, if this earth was different I would not make any effort to eat meat as I have no strong desire toward it. I see no value in myself being vegan as of now and do not think it'd create anything positive. I do not think it'd save the life of any animals either although with a small possibly. In my ways I have no feeling of infringing upon free will, so I'd hardly consider my ways as polarizing negatively.

You won't make a difference. Not today. Not tomorrow. Probably Not next week either.

BUT, collectively, the more of us who go vegan DO make a difference. We DO have an impact on the industry! This is proven. Meat consumption has dropped dramatically. One national news article said that meat consumption has plummeted and this is directly due to raised awareness by vegans in addition to the medical research showing the obvious health benefits of a plant-based diet.

So, respectfully, you are simply mistaken that your choice means nothing and doesn't have any impact. Why do you belittle your contribution? Each person has value. YOU have value!

The power is in the collective. We each contribute to the consensual reality.

In addition to direct supply and demand, which is standard in any industry and cannot be denied, you also have value in the choices you make, in terms of consciousness feeding into the collective consciousness. We live in a holographic universe, and each person - including YOU - does have an impact on the reality we are creating. Not just on a physical level, but on an energetic level.

I'm not a collective person, I dont vote either. As I said I do accept the system and feel no desire to change it otherwise.

Anything can be done by a STO-oriented entity as long as it perceives it in love.

Anything? So a pedophile can 'love' his victim and still polarize STO? Well that's great news for pedophiles. They often say that they 'love' little children.

I do not resonate with pedophily but can comprehend that there is most likely much surrow and struggle for the pedophiles themselves in regards to their programming and the mirror they are given by society.

Polarity exists in intent and not action

Why do you leave out action? Of course intent is important. But that doesn't mean that action - choice - has No importance. Both are important.

Action is not left out, it is seen through the intent by self. Leaving action out is a way to say that one action can have various motives behind it, it is something that is easily oversable within society.

and evolution of awareness brings us to reunite both polarities into one. Ra calls it STO, but to move beyond it requires a STO that integrates into itself negative wisdom and that is able to see the beauty in it.

The concept of 'beyond polarity' is often confused with the sinkhole of indifference. One must first get past the sinkhole of indifference and choose a polarity before one can go beyond polarity.

There is also refinement of what polarity means, beyond polarity means that any action is understood as serving self and other-selves. That is not something doable interely nor completely unconditionally at our level of existence, but it is something that is ever refined more and more throughout evolution.

I do not believe the earth to be STS when an earthquake arrives or anything similar, I believe the earth provides what is needed whatever the color it comes in. So to answer your question, I do believe destruction can be offered in love, and I do believe it is one lesson that is to be learned by all.

So do you think those billions of animals are being raped/tortured/destroyed in love?

...

I do believe that love is the force which brings them to create this reality around them so that they can experience what they need to experience, that any STS act done to them by any entity is a service and answer to their soul needs, which are complementary to the "agent of fate"'s own needs. Those that need to meet under their cistumstances do meet under their circumstances. There is no way to hurt others without hurting self, that I do believe to be true even if it is not seen nor experienced in the present moment. Every STS act will come to be regretted, but beyond regret lies acceptance of each and every of one's acts and others' acts as love is seen in them.

I do believe pain to be a valuable experience as it cannot be understood without being experienced. It can be experienced in as many ways as there are different fates. I can love and feel compassion for those who walk a path filled with pain but that does not mean I believe their experience needs to be otherwise. I also do believe each and every entity that goes through this experience (or any other) will come to accept it as rightfully part of it's path and would not want it to be any other way.

[Diana]

Anything can be done by a STO-oriented entity as long as it perceives it in love.

Anything? So a pedophile can 'love' his victim and still polarize STO? Well that's great news for pedophiles. They often say that they 'love' little children.

I do not resonate with pedophily but can comprehend that there is most likely much surrow and struggle for the pedophiles themselves in regards to their programming and the mirror they are given by society.

I agree with what you say here, ETM. Pedophiles are reviled by society and I think in much need of healing and love.

But I wouldn't see that healing as allowing them to violate children. Not here, in 3D. In a higher realm one might see the whole sweep of karma and soul evolution as perfect as it is. But as Ra has said, and I'll paraphrase, if you see a starving person the proper response is to feed them. 

In 3D, I would like to see prisons as places of healing, where "criminals" can learn that they can be unconditionally loved. This may start with being loved by shelter dogs. The fragmented portions (those stuck in childhood) of the pedophile would need light, not to stay in shadow and continue to be indulged, in order to evolve away from the unbalanced tendency. I don't mean forcing the pedophile to change, I mean giving him/her the opportunity to evolve, to feel loved and accepted. Our society does not do that at all. 

When talking of karma and the traditional aspects of it, there is the concept that one could get off the karmic wheel by forgiving one's self. So it is not mandatory that the pedophile be reviled, or continue to play out violations. The pedophile might want to stay on that trajectory, and this may simply be due to inertia. Humans resist change, but change is inevitable. The whole idea that if one kills someone one must then be killed to balance the karma, is too simplistic to me. There are an infinite number of outcomes available.

I understand detachment, but there is a point at which detachment blurs into separation. One is "outside of it all," "above it all," or "special" in some way.

[Monica]

Because I do accept it's provenance without feeling repulsion as you do.

Really? Are you saying that you don't feel repulsed by eating meat, OR are you saying that you don't feel repulsed by this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUQnMvigcdQ

Are you saying that you can watch this, and Not feel repulsed?

How about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM-JsyyfSmE

Still no repulsion?

Are you able to watch these in their entirety without feeling any repulsion? Or do you mean that you refuse to watch these videos, and don't feel any repulsion? (Ie. there is a difference between watching the videos and Not feeling repulsed, vs. NOT watching the videos and Not feeling repulsed. So I am trying to understand what you mean, specifically.)

...

[Minyatur]

Because I do accept it's provenance without feeling repulsion as you do.

Really? Are you saying that you don't feel repulsed by eating meat, OR are you saying that you don't feel repulsed by this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUQnMvigcdQ

Are you saying that you can watch this, and Not feel repulsed?

How about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM-JsyyfSmE

Still no repulsion?

Are you able to watch these in their entirety without feeling any repulsion? Or do you mean that you refuse to watch these videos, and don't feel any repulsion? (Ie. there is a difference between watching the videos and Not feeling repulsed, vs. NOT watching the videos and Not feeling repulsed. So I am trying to understand what you mean, specifically.)

...

Well I do not find them merry but I still do not feel repulsion while watching. I picture it as a harsh catalyst even for the workers when they'll succeed in opening their heart ray. But I do still think these places resonate death and suffering and yet souls apparently resonate with incarnating there. Just as much as there is death, there also is life in this video as that without any of these meat farms none of them would even exist.

I personally feel repulsed by even holding an animal that I feel doesn't want to be held, so I guess it is very relative to the context and my implication with it. Tried fishing and hated it, even if I'd release the fish I found no pleasure in holding them against their will nor hurting them with the hooks. I feel no need for myself to inflict pain on another sentient being but can understand that others do have this need, that they unknowingly offer as a service.

[Diana]

Because I do accept it's provenance without feeling repulsion as you do.

Really? Are you saying that you don't feel repulsed by eating meat, OR are you saying that you don't feel repulsed by this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUQnMvigcdQ

Are you saying that you can watch this, and Not feel repulsed?

How about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM-JsyyfSmE

Still no repulsion?

Are you able to watch these in their entirety without feeling any repulsion? Or do you mean that you refuse to watch these videos, and don't feel any repulsion? (Ie. there is a difference between watching the videos and Not feeling repulsed, vs. NOT watching the videos and Not feeling repulsed. So I am trying to understand what you mean, specifically.)

...

Well I do not find them merry but I still do not feel repulsion while watching. I picture it as a harsh catalyst even for the workers when they'll succeed in opening their heart ray. But I do still think these places resonate death and suffering and yet souls apparently resonate with incarnating there. Just as much as there is death, there also is life in this video as that without any of these meat farms none of them would even exist.

I personally feel repulsed by even holding an animal that I feel doesn't want to be held, so I guess it is very relative to the context and my implication with it. Tried fishing and hated it, even if I'd release the fish I found no pleasure in holding them against their will nor hurting them with the hooks. I feel no need for myself to inflict pain on another sentient being but can understand that others do have this need, that they unknowingly offer as a service.

Your reasoning makes sense to my intellect if I can shut off any connection to my heart. I'm not accusing you of having a closed heart, but that is the only way I can reconcile your mindset. Of course, I am not a great advanced being so my perception is limited. 

I understand how the intellect can weave justifications, and the ego is the mastermind of that endeavor. I don't mean the standard idea of ego, I mean the vital portion of the 3D self that protects the self—an important job up until a point. 

To say the meat animals (and slaughterhouse employees, etc.) choose it is completely beside the point. The point is, why does anyone here choose to be part of it? There may be young girls who choose on a soul level for whatever reason to be abducted and sold into slavery for sex, but is there anyone here who would choose to benefit from that suffering consciously? Would anyone here "buy" one of those girls and justify it as being of service to the girls who "need" it? 

It's convoluted to me. 

[Minyatur]

Well I do not find them merry but I still do not feel repulsion while watching. I picture it as a harsh catalyst even for the workers when they'll succeed in opening their heart ray. But I do still think these places resonate death and suffering and yet souls apparently resonate with incarnating there. Just as much as there is death, there also is life in this video as that without any of these meat farms none of them would even exist.

I personally feel repulsed by even holding an animal that I feel doesn't want to be held, so I guess it is very relative to the context and my implication with it. Tried fishing and hated it, even if I'd release the fish I found no pleasure in holding them against their will nor hurting them with the hooks. I feel no need for myself to inflict pain on another sentient being but can understand that others do have this need, that they unknowingly offer as a service.

Your reasoning makes sense to my intellect if I can shut off any connection to my heart. I'm not accusing you of having a closed heart, but that is the only way I can reconcile your mindset. Of course, I am not a great advanced being so my perception is limited. 

Well my heart is what it is, working on it takes a long time and includes uncovering what is not known to me. The only way I have found to experience my heart fully open so far is through the use of drugs, works nicely on facing and seeking how it makes me feel so that I can desire it in my daily life.

I understand how the intellect can weave justifications, and the ego is the mastermind of that endeavor. I don't mean the standard idea of ego, I mean the vital portion of the 3D self that protects the self—an important job up until a point. 

What tells you in the case of others it necessary has to do with the 3D ego? We all came here to work on different things from before being veiled. You are right that I tend to justify, not just my actions but existence as a whole.

To say the meat animals (and slaughterhouse employees, etc.) choose it is completely beside the point. The point is, why does anyone here choose to be part of it? There may be young girls who choose on a soul level for whatever reason to be abducted and sold into slavery for sex, but is there anyone here who would choose to benefit from that suffering consciously? Would anyone here "buy" one of those girls and justify it as being of service to the girls who "need" it? 

It's convoluted to me. 

I do not think that the notion that they are choosing it is beside the point. I think there is beauty to be found in souls that willingly integrate pain as part of their path so that their future selves may know pain in their understanding of love.

I do what I feel called to do, if you ask why I do not do other things, I'll just tell you that I already am as every other-selves who are doing these things.