Did Entities Eat Meat Before The Veil ?

[upensmoke]

Im just curious as to what the individuals on this forum think about the diet of our ancestors before the veil when there was no STS. 

Did they eat meat & why do you think so? Did they not eat meat & why do you think that?

Thanks you to any who reply.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Honestly, no clue.

Speculating: No. There was no need to do so.
Or
Yes. If they wanted to.

Or

Maybe, depending on if they had no concept of polarity to deter them from ignoring 'allness' knowledge to 'experience' whatever they desired to.

This would've been a great question to Ra.

[outerheaven]

I guess the first problem I'd have to solve before answering is, what is "meat" when there is no veil?

[bosphorus]

i guess it depends on the body types of the entities. if he was a Dinoid or Reptoid he would certainly eat meat. However if was a Humanoid, not really

[anagogy]

Im just curious as to what the individuals on this forum think about the diet of our ancestors before the veil when there was no STS. 

Did they eat meat & why do you think so? Did they not eat meat & why do you think that?

Thanks you to any who reply.

Great question, and this is what I would pose to Ra were the Ra contact still ongoing.

However, Ra has said that 3rd density is the only plane of forgetting, and that instinctual activities remain much the same even without the veil.

I think it unlikely that strictly carnivorous animals, which are not 3rd density (and thus not subject to the veil) would not eat meat even if there was no veil, and if Ra was speaking truthfully, they still have no veil and continue to eat each other.

You also have to think about it in terms of: how far do you want to take this not having the veil thing?  What I mean is: say there is no veil, and humans were vegan, at what point does it become "against the instinctual nature of 3rd density" to eat a conscious life-form?  There are many 2nd density beings, and 1st density minerals.  Trees are late 2nd density beings, which may become enspirited and gain self aware characteristics.  At which point does a given point of consciousness attain a degree of consciousness sufficient that it would not be eaten by a self aware entity?  

I mean, what about bugs?  Is it okay to eat bugs?  Bacteria?  Fish?  Could a vegetable gain sentience?  Interesting questions.  

My opinion: 2nd density beings on the lower end of the spectrum were still ingested to an extent.    

[Jade]

I would speculate and say no. Before the veil, entities did what was necessary to survive and that's about it. Understanding their body complexes completely, ie what nutrients they need each day, they probably would forage and eat fruits, and not go through the extra effort to hunt/kill/cook their food. I would assume they favored foods that were more "alive" upon consumption, preferring a simpler/cleaner energy transfer.

[AnthroHeart]

Certainly no Monster drinks.

[Aion]

I think there is a typical desire to attribute almost saint-like status to the ancients, as though they were somehow all purely compassionate, enlightened individuals. I think it was the same as it is now, it varied from individual to individual. This Ra quote strongly gives me the impression they weren't too concerned with the consequences of their actions.

Ra: I am Ra. Consider, if you will, the tendency of those who are divinely happy, as you call this distortion, to have little urge to alter or better their condition. Such is the result of the mind/body/spirit which is not complex. There is the possibility of love of other-selves and service to other-selves, but there is the overwhelming awareness of the Creator in the self. The connection with the Creator is that of the umbilical cord. The security is total. Therefore, no love is terribly important; no pain terribly frightening; no effort, therefore, is made to serve for love or to benefit from fear.

Also, Ra has even stated that the Veil is a divide or separation between the Matrix of the Mind and the Potentiator of the Mind, so all of the other functions of the body are the same. The veil only changes how much is in conscious awareness.

So yes, I think pre-veil there was still carnivorous activity even in third density. In fact, I think the whole reason the veil was brought in was because the experiences being had created no sway one way or the other in polarity. I think that individuals prior to the veil would basically have been pleasure seekers for the most part, doing whatever pleases the impulse because hey, all is one, you can't go wrong!

[AnthroHeart]

There was no free will before the veil if I recall correctly.
So they wouldn't want to violate the free will of an animal by eating it.

[Aion]

That's not the way I've understood it. Of course there was free will, that's the first distortion. The Logos is an individuated entity with free will, it just has a bias towards kindness. Free will still existed, but the path of service to self had not yet been conceived as a 'harvestable' path. That would have made everyone just become positively harvestable but clearly it didn't so obviously they can't have been overly concerned with how they were affecting free will. However, Ra also said that the Logos was aware of the polarities at the beginning of its design, it just didn't know when it would come in to play.

[Aion]

I think people confuse 'awareness of the Creator' with 'lacking free will', these are not at all the same to me. I also don't think the exact conditions on this planet are the same as on all other planets.

[Matt1]

Its an interesting question. The first thing we would have to clear is the nature of the veil. In my understanding it is a veil between the consciousness mind and the unconscious mind allowing for a temporary experience of separation or the illusion as it is called. I would assume that eating would not be an issue since we are at a state of oneness with an understanding of prana/chi allowing for the body to not need food stuff as we would normally think of it.

[Aion]

Does awareness of the self as Creator also constitute perfect awareness and knowledge of the body? Ra says that there was still progression through the densities at this time. Do you think they just learned or became aware of nothing new in their progress?

[Matt1]

Well as i am aware, if we are unveiled we would have awareness of all the densities not just 3rd. However that being said we would still be of a 3rd density make up and with its own limits, if we take into consideration how powerful a 3rd density body can be if fully balanced in an unveiled manner, Ra state that people could be as old as 900 years? Plus heal people and do many things. I don't think it would be out of the question to not need to have to eat , since many Yogi's are believed to have done so in the past and continue to do so in our own time.

[Aion]

I thought fourth density and above was invisible by their own choice, not because of the conditions of third density? Ra even said all the above densities would still be visible if they chose to be.

I'm sure there were probably a spectrum of individuals. That's why it doesn't make sense to me to make broad generalizations of all people as there was probably still a large variety of ways in which people chose to live.

[Matt1]

I think 4th density and above are invisible to keep the veil effective. If we are talking about being in an unveiled state we wouldn't have a need to have the higher densities hidden. I agree with you that its only generalizations that i can make on such a subject as i haven't yet fully went beyond the veil, yet we can take what Ra has said and make sense of it with a question like this one.

[Aion]

Well by all means we can speculate. I feel like they chose to be invisible even before the veil, but I'll have to look about that.

[Jade]

I'm not expressing it as a morality thing, I was just thinking in simplicity of energy transfer. Also, Ra says that the first and most efficacious veiling was that of the mind, but the body was veiled, as well.

86.18 Questioner: Perhaps I can question it slightly differently here. I might ask why loss of knowledge and control over the body was helpful?

Ra: I am Ra. The knowledge* of the potentials of the physical vehicle before the veiling offered the mind/body/spirit complex** a free range of choices with regard to activities and manifestations of the body but offered little in the way of the development of polarity. When the knowledge of these potentials and functions of the physical vehicle is shrouded from the conscious mind complex, the mind/body/spirit complex is often nearly without knowledge of how to best manifest its beingness. However, this state of lack of knowledge offers an opportunity for a desire to grow within the mind complex. This desire is that which seeks to know the possibilities of the body complex. The ramifications of each possibility and the eventual biases thusly built have within them a force which can only be generated by such desire or will to know.

* The phrase “The loss to the conscious mind of” has been removed from the beginning of the answer because Ra appears to have started speaking about post-veil conditions and then changed their focus to pre-veil without realizing it. See the relistened version or the differences page for the original answer.

** Should be mind/body/spirit. Ra and Don corrected the error in session 87.

Category: Third Density: The Veil

86.19 Questioner: Perhaps you could give examples of use of the body prior to veiling and after veiling in the same aspect so that we could understand the change in knowledge and control over the body more clearly. Could you do this, please?

Ra: I am Ra. We could.

Category: Third Density: The Veil

86.20 Questioner: Will you do this?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes. Let us deal with the sexual energy transfer. Before the veiling such a transfer was always possible due to there being no shadow upon the grasp of the nature of the body complex* and its relationship to other mind/body/spirit complexes** in this particular manifestation. Before the veiling process there was a near total lack of the use of this sexual energy transfer beyond green ray.

This also was due to the same unshadowed knowledge each had of each. There was, in third density then, little purpose to be seen in the more intensive relationships of mind, body, and spirit complexes*** which you may call those of the mating process, since each other-self was seen to be the Creator and no other-self seemed to be more the Creator than another.

After the veiling process it became infinitely more difficult to achieve green-ray energy transfer due to the great areas of mystery and unknowing concerning the body complex and its manifestations. However, also due to the great shadowing of the manifestations of the body from the conscious mind complex, when such energy transfer was experienced it was likelier to provide catalyst which caused a bonding of self with other-self in a properly polarized configuration.

From this point it was far more likely that higher energy transfers would be sought by this mated pair of mind/body/spirit complexes, thus allowing the Creator to know Itself with great beauty, solemnity, and wonder. Intelligent infinity having been reached by this sacramental use of this function of the body, each mind/body/spirit complex of the mated pair gained greatly in polarization and in ability to serve.

* Should be “body,” not “body complex.”

** Should be “mind/body/spirits,” not “mind/body/spirit complexes.”

*** Should be “mind, body, and spirit.”

Ra and Don corrected these errors in session 87.

Strangely, there were lots of errors in this transmission, which could probably be pondered. Still, I would just assume that, before the veil was placed upon our body complexes, that the most efficient means of consuming energy was utilized, ie picking a ripe fruit or leaves from the ground and consuming it immediately, as opposed to the alternative. I'm not saying that there was no carnivorism, just very little (probably much like apes).

[Minyatur]

I'd wonder if eating meat was seen as a STS action or if that is actually a consequence of the veil.

i.e. the same actions can be done but with a very different intent as intent is what detemines the polarity of the act.

[Spaced]

Animal aren't affected by the veil as we are and many of them eat meat. So I would say yes.

Death nourishes life, it's always been this way.

[upensmoke]

Animal aren't affected by the veil as we are and many of them eat meat. So I would say yes.

Death nourishes life, it's always been this way.

May i ask how you came to the conclusion that animals aren't affected by the veil?

also plants Live off of sun Light right? do you equate sunlight with death ? or are u specifically referring to 3d entities ? 

also why do you believe it's always been that way ?

[upensmoke]

I'm not expressing it as a morality thing, I was just thinking in simplicity of energy transfer. Also, Ra says that the first and most efficacious veiling was that of the mind, but the body was veiled, as well.

86.18 Questioner: Perhaps I can question it slightly differently here. I might ask why loss of knowledge and control over the body was helpful?

Ra: I am Ra. The knowledge* of the potentials of the physical vehicle before the veiling offered the mind/body/spirit complex** a free range of choices with regard to activities and manifestations of the body but offered little in the way of the development of polarity. When the knowledge of these potentials and functions of the physical vehicle is shrouded from the conscious mind complex, the mind/body/spirit complex is often nearly without knowledge of how to best manifest its beingness. However, this state of lack of knowledge offers an opportunity for a desire to grow within the mind complex. This desire is that which seeks to know the possibilities of the body complex. The ramifications of each possibility and the eventual biases thusly built have within them a force which can only be generated by such desire or will to know.

* The phrase “The loss to the conscious mind of” has been removed from the beginning of the answer because Ra appears to have started speaking about post-veil conditions and then changed their focus to pre-veil without realizing it. See the relistened version or the differences page for the original answer.

** Should be mind/body/spirit. Ra and Don corrected the error in session 87.

Category: Third Density: The Veil

86.19 Questioner: Perhaps you could give examples of use of the body prior to veiling and after veiling in the same aspect so that we could understand the change in knowledge and control over the body more clearly. Could you do this, please?

Ra: I am Ra. We could.

Category: Third Density: The Veil

86.20 Questioner: Will you do this?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes. Let us deal with the sexual energy transfer. Before the veiling such a transfer was always possible due to there being no shadow upon the grasp of the nature of the body complex* and its relationship to other mind/body/spirit complexes** in this particular manifestation. Before the veiling process there was a near total lack of the use of this sexual energy transfer beyond green ray.

This also was due to the same unshadowed knowledge each had of each. There was, in third density then, little purpose to be seen in the more intensive relationships of mind, body, and spirit complexes*** which you may call those of the mating process, since each other-self was seen to be the Creator and no other-self seemed to be more the Creator than another.

After the veiling process it became infinitely more difficult to achieve green-ray energy transfer due to the great areas of mystery and unknowing concerning the body complex and its manifestations. However, also due to the great shadowing of the manifestations of the body from the conscious mind complex, when such energy transfer was experienced it was likelier to provide catalyst which caused a bonding of self with other-self in a properly polarized configuration.

From this point it was far more likely that higher energy transfers would be sought by this mated pair of mind/body/spirit complexes, thus allowing the Creator to know Itself with great beauty, solemnity, and wonder. Intelligent infinity having been reached by this sacramental use of this function of the body, each mind/body/spirit complex of the mated pair gained greatly in polarization and in ability to serve.

* Should be “body,” not “body complex.”

** Should be “mind/body/spirits,” not “mind/body/spirit complexes.”

*** Should be “mind, body, and spirit.”

Ra and Don corrected these errors in session 87.

Strangely, there were lots of errors in this transmission, which could probably be pondered. Still, I would just assume that, before the veil was placed upon our body complexes, that the most efficient means of consuming energy was utilized, ie picking a ripe fruit or leaves from the ground and consuming it immediately, as opposed to the alternative. I'm not saying that there was no carnivorism, just very little (probably much like apes).

you make a good point I wonder if this section would have cleared up a lot of confusion regarding the body and diet, but who knows 

[Spaced]

Animal aren't affected by the veil as we are and many of them eat meat. So I would say yes.

Death nourishes life, it's always been this way.

May i ask how you came to the conclusion that animals aren't affected by the veil?

also plants Live off of sun Light right? do you equate sunlight with death ? or are u specifically referring to 3d entities ? 

also why do you believe it's always been that way ?

I can find nothing in the Ra material to suggest that the veil is anything other than a third density phenomenon.

Plants grow towards the light and use energy from photons, transforming water and carbon dioxide into chemical energy usable to sustain life. They also require fertile soil with nutrients such as nitrogen, potassium, phosphorous, calcium, etc. How do those nutrients get into the soil? Decomposed carcasses and dead and rotted plants. There are also carnivorous plants, I should add, who thrive in places where those nutrients are hard to get from the soil

I guess I can't say with any authority that it's always been that way, but I can't say it hasn't either.

[upensmoke]

is there evidence pointing in the direction of it not being a 2d phenomenon? you say Ra only gave evidence towards 3d aspect of life, but did he give evidence of it not being 2d?

It seems as if life feeds death and death feeds life. a cycle, a paradox, like so many other things.

[Spaced]

I'd be interested to see if anyone can find a quote regarding the veil that isn't also referring to third density.

Ra says a lot of things like:

"The experience of mind/body/spirits at the beginning of this octave of experience was singular. There was no third-density forgetting. There was no veil." (82.12)

"It was this situation which faced the Logoi prior to the veiling process being introduced into the experiential continuum of third density." (82.29)

These are just little hints dropped here and there, but to me at least these seem to point towards the veil being a third density phenomenon. Archetypically the veil exists between the Matrix and the Potentiator, The archetypes themselves are the foundation of third density experience, and are not necessarily applicable to second density experience.

These are all inferences made by me of course and I have no claim on truth.

[anagogy]

is there evidence pointing in the direction of it not being a 2d phenomenon? you say Ra only gave evidence towards 3d aspect of life, but did he give evidence of it not being 2d?

It seems as if life feeds death and death feeds life. a cycle, a paradox, like so many other things.

"The incarnation pattern of the beginning third-density mind/body/spirit complex begins in darkness, for you may think or consider of your density as one of, as you may say, a sleep and a forgetting. This is the only plane of forgetting. It is necessary for the third-density entity to forget so that the mechanisms of confusion or free will may operate upon the newly individuated consciousness complex."

They clearly refer to forgetting only occurring to the 3rd density being that just became individuated (a 3rd density phenomenon).

So animals would, if were were to accept this information, not be subject to the veil of time/space forgetting. Thus their conscious umbilical cord to the creator has not been cut yet.  

Animals eat each other.  Always have.

Thus, the logical conclusion of an absent veil equalling: vegan lifestyle by default is a false conclusion to come to, in my opinion.

[Jade]

Our "ancestors" (chimps or w/e) are frugivores. Yes they eat each other but very rarely, and not usually because they're hungry but more often to send a message (killing and eating other competition/tribes).

[Spaced]

Chimpanzees are not frugivores, they are omnivores like us and form hunting parties regularly to secure meat. This has been known since the 60s when Jane Goodall first observed huntinng behaviour in chimps. They eat birds, smaller primates, etc.

[Diana]

It's interesting to speculate, but since everything is evolving toward something bigger, greater, more aware, I'm not sure it matters.

Chimps are our closest relatives, though separated by millennia of evolution along different lines. Chimps have large brains for a mammal and as such, like humans, will be opportunists (based on survival instinct).

Hopefully this whole soup is evolving toward something better than predator/prey/suffering.

[anagogy]

It's interesting to speculate, but since everything is evolving toward something bigger, greater, more aware, I'm not sure it matters.

Chimps are our closest relatives, though separated by millennia of evolution along different lines. Chimps have large brains for a mammal and as such, like humans, will be opportunists (based on survival instinct).

Hopefully this whole soup is evolving toward something better than predator/prey/suffering.

Better than...

Worse than...

I think these are highly subjective.  Is a caterpillar wrong because it is not a butterfly?  Is an ape wrong because it not a man?  Is a human wrong because it is not an angel?  Every stage of evolution is a unique manifestation of a certain level of consciousness.  All experiences are valuable.

The experiences were set up deliberately, by the creator for some reason or another.  One beings hell is another's beings heaven.  I just think it might be a mistake to find imperfection in any state of being, no matter how much it disagrees with one, personally.  In fact, I find disapproval with such tends to hold one in that pattern indefinitely until one sees the value and purpose in it.

In the end, all things dissolve back into the One.  Just as all things arise out of the One, like the illusion of separation.  The evolution does not exist because of what the evolution will net us, the creator is already perfect, but rather, for the experience of evolution itself.

Its like going on vacation and reasoning that since the end destination is home again, one might as well not go.  It kind of misses the point.  That's why I feel that this speculation matters greatly, lest people presume there is anything wrong or broken with any particular level of existence.  That which is not needed anymore naturally falls away, and true evolution occurs as beings desires evolve, not because the desires or behaviors were inherently wrong.