Ra's Statements About 2D Entities

[Monica]

The issue of killing and eating animals has been a very hot topic here at Bring4th. The most common argument in favor of disregarding the *free will of animals is that they are, after all, merely 2D entities, like plants. Since we must eat something, the argument goes, it makes no difference whether we 'choose' to eat plants or animals, since they are all 2D anyway.

Here is a very compelling video citing cases of animals showing complex, profound, human-like emotions, such as inconsolable grief when losing a loved one. (Don't worry; it's not graphic!)

2D Entities Showing Grief and Other Emotions  <<== The VIDEO. PLEASE WATCH.

Yes THAT ONE! ^^ That's the one to WATCH! Before continuing. PLEASE WATCH, PRETTY PLEASE WITH A CHERRY ON TOP.

* Animals clearly do have the will to live, being that they fight their killers. Someone will surely now respond "But maybe plants do too!" Maybe. Maybe not. We know very little about plants. We know that they have some sort of consciousness. But we know that animals have sentience; ie. individual consciousness; ie. self-awareness. We also know that animals have pain receptors and nervous systems, whereas plants don't. We also know from Ra that the hardware must accommodate the software, so it logically follows from that, that if an entity has evolved to the state of having sentience, it will inhabit a physical vehicle that can accommodate that sentience.

Please don't turn this thread into another vegans-vs-meat-eaters debate! We already have plenty of those!

The purpose of this thread is to explore what Ra says about 2D entities. (That's why it's posted in Strictly Law of One instead of the Diet sub-forum. Please help me keep this on-track, ok? Pretty please? Truce?)

Also, please, pretty please, with a cherry on top, can you please watch the above video before you post anything? Out of respect to the topic, it would be helpful if we're all on the same page. The video has important details about observed behaviors in our younger 2D brethren which are exceedingly relevant to this topic.

OK, now that you've watched the video...

So, what does Ra say about 2D entities?

13.21 Questioner: Then how does the second density progress to the third?
Ra: I am Ra. The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.

With this in mind, would you not agree that the entities in the above video are self-aware mind/body complexes?

9.14 Questioner: Then there were second-density entities here prior to approximately 75,000 years ago. What type of entities were these?

Ra: The second density is the density of the higher plant life and animal life which exists without the upward drive towards the infinite. These second-density beings are of an octave of consciousness just as you find various orientations of consciousness among the conscious entities of your vibration.

An octave of consciousness. Just as there is an octave of consciousness among humans...ranging from, for example, a young 3D soul contrasted with the likes of Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Yogananda?


Is there a broad range of consciousness between you or me, and Krishna or Buddha? how about between your next-door neighbor and Yogananda?


Likewise, could there be a range of consciousness between, say, a carrot and your dog?

19.5 Questioner: When the first second-density entities became third on this planet, was this with the help of the transfer of beings from Mars, or were there second-density entities that evolved into third density with no outside influence?

Ra: I am Ra. There were some second-density entities which made the graduation into third density with no outside stimulus but only the efficient use of experience.

Thus, not only our companion dogs and cats might be eligible for graduation to 3D, but any higher 2D entity who has made efficient use of catalyst.

Others of your planetary second density joined the third-density cycle due to harvesting efforts by the same sort of sending of vibratory aid as those of the Confederation send you now. This communication was, however, telepathic rather than telepathic/vocal or telepathic/written due to the nature of second-density beings.

So the Confederation sent aid to 2D entities, just as they now send aid to us.


Could it not stand to reason, then, that the Confederation might be sending aid to 2D entities right now?


Furthermore, could it not stand to reason that some Wanderers might be joining in that effort, while incarnate on this planet, upon hearing the call for help?

20.3 Questioner: So more and more second-density entities are making it into third density. Can you give me an example of a second-density entity coming into third density, say, in the recent past?

Ra: I am Ra. Perhaps the most common occurrence of second-density graduation during third-density cycle is the so-called pet.

The animal which is exposed to the individualizing influences of the bond between animal and third-density entity, this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second-density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return unto the undifferentiated consciousness of that species, if you will.

Let's refer again to 13.21, quoted above:

[font=sans-serif]they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.
[/font]

Ah, it appears that graduation from 2D to 3D is a 2-step process. 2D is a very long density, starting out as undifferentiated consciousness, easily observed in the blades of grass on a lawn, the leaves of a lettuce plant, or even the instinct of wild animals. At some point, however, this undifferentiated consciousness becomes differentiated...sentient...self-aware. This is Step 1. It is now a self-aware mind/body complex. What makes the animal, operating purely on instinct (group mind, or undifferentiated consciousness) become self-aware?


My guess is that, in the wild, it is getting left behind the herd, perhaps after stepping in a hole and breaking one's leg, and then falling prey to a predator. In that moment of getting killed by the predator, the animal is separated from the herd...differentiated. The animal experiences catalyst.


From that moment on, the entity differentiates from the herd...and begins the journey of self-awareness, finely honing this self-awareness with each subsequent lifetime, just as a 3D human experiences a glimmer of love/compassion, and then finely hones that flowering of the heart with each subsequent lifetime, perhaps over hundreds or even thousands of lifetimes, until reaching the point of graduation to 4D.


4D is the density of love. Yet 3D humans surely experience love.


Likewise, while 3D is the density of self-awareness, 2D entities surely experience self-awareness.


When humans reach the threshold of 51% STO, they are harvestable to 4D.


I don't remember whether Ra mentioned a threshold for 2D, but surely there is one. Surely there is a point at which the self-awareness is such that they now reach Step 2: Graduation from a mind/body complex to a mind/body/spirit complex.

[/url]14.[url=http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?s=14#1]1 Questioner: Going back over this morning’s work, [inaudible]. You said the second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through higher second-density forms invested by third-density beings. Could you explain what you mean by this?

Ra: I am Ra. Much as you would put on a vestment, so do your third-density beings invest or clothe some second-density beings with self-awareness. This is often done through the opportunity of what you call pets. It has also been done by various other means of investiture. These include many so-called religious practice complexes which personify and send love to various natural second-density beings in their group form.

Higher. This indicates that there is indeed a difference between a lower 2D entity and a higher 2D entity.

14.2 Questioner: When this Earth was second-density, how did the second-density beings on this Earth become so invested?

Ra: There was not this type of investment as spoken but the simple third-density investment which is the line of spiraling light calling distortion upward from density to density. The process takes longer when there is no investment made by incarnate third-density beings.

It takes longer but it does indeed happen. This means that animals in the wild can be harvestable to 3D also...not just pets.

13.18 Questioner: Could you define what you mean by growth?

Ra: I am Ra. Picture, if you will, the difference between first-vibrational mineral or water life and the lower second-density beings which begin to move about within and upon its being. This movement is the characteristic of second density, the striving towards light and growth.

Ah...interesting that Ra mentions movement. I have long asserted that an entity whose consciousness is self-aware wouldn't likely incarnate into the body of an immobile carrot. The hardware must accommodate the software.


(I can hear the protests: What about people in comas? Yes, yes, entities can choose all sorts of catalyst. But 3D entities don't typically incarnate into dogs, right? So why would a higher 2D entity incarnate into the body of a lower 2D entity?)

19.2 Questioner: Let’s take the point at which an individualized entity of second density is ready for transition to third. Is this second-density being what we would call animal?

Ra: I am Ra. There are three types of second-density entities which become, shall we say, enspirited. The first is the animal. This is the most predominant. The second is the vegetable, most especially that which you call sound vibration complex “tree.” These entities are capable of giving and receiving enough love to become individualized. The third category is mineral. Occasionally a certain location, place as you may call it, becomes energized to individuality through the love it receives and gives in relationship to a third-density entity which is in relationship to it. This is the least common transition.

Notice that the only plant Ra mentioned is tree. But a crystal, or even a place, could develop self-awareness, if invested. This raises the question: Could any set of molecules develop self-awareness? I once knew a psychic who claimed that her faithful VW had a consciousness, and even had a name. The idea of AI is prevalent in sci-fi books and movies. As a former computer programmer (back in the mainframe days), I've had conversations with veteran programmers who swore up and down that the computer had a consciousness.

Why not?

Why might a computer, a house, or a tree develop self-awareness, but not a carrot or a lettuce?

My guess is that it is this investiture that Ra speaks of. And, there seems to be another factor: time.

Trees live long lives. When I read what Ra said about trees - apparently only some trees, not all trees, or trees would have been as prevalent as animals - I immediately thought of Grandfather trees - the ancient, 1000+ -year-old tree that has been loved by countless generations. Think of ancient oak in the back yard of a house passed on, generation after generation, for hundreds of years...with countless generations of children climbing the tree...loving it. 

Yes, I can see how that tree might develop self-awareness.

Now contrast that to the lettuce, which is but one among hundreds of lettuces, that lives a very short life...only a few weeks. Even in a backyard garden, the gardener might love all their plants, but does that individual lettuce stand out enough to develop sentience? Perhaps...if the gardener gave it special attention...perhaps it will be a chicken in its next life.

But is that single lettuce, or that single carrot, likely to develop sentience to the degree that a chicken, cat or dog would? No, for the simple reason that there isn't sufficient time to be invested.

20.4 Questioner: Then can you give me an example of an entity in third density that was just previously a second-density entity? What type of entity do they become here?

Ra: I am Ra. As a second-density entity returns as third-density for the beginning of this process of learning, the entity is equipped with the lowest, if you will so call these vibrational distortions, forms of third-density consciousness; that is, equipped with self-consciousness.

Not quite a Buddha or Jesus, eh? Just as the carrot is not quite a dog or cow?

What I'm getting at here is that there is an octave of difference between early 2D and late 2D, just as there is an octave of difference between early 3D and late 3D.

19.7 Questioner: Then the Confederation also aided in second density to third density transition. Is this correct?


Ra: I am Ra. We must qualify correctness of this query. A portion of the Confederation which is not working with third density but finds its aid best used in other harvests— that is the second-density harvest— is responsible for aid in these harvests. The Confederation, as we have stated previously in these sessions, is composed of many of those in other densities, in your own density, within your planetary sphere, and within the inner or angelic realms. Each of those entities developing a mind/body/spirit complex, and then developing a social memory complex, and then dedicating this social memory complex to the singular service to the One Creator, may join the Confederation.

Developing. This shows that it doesn't happen instantly. It is a process. Becoming sentient is a process. Hence, the long duration of 2D. Hence, higher 2D entities are further along in that process than early 2D entities. 

All of this leads to an unavoidable conclusion:

Higher 2D entities - animals and the occasional tree, crystal or location - are very, very different from lower 2D entities.

I would even take it a step further and speculate that they have more in common with us - the 3D entities with whom they will soon join - than with lower 2D entities (carrots and lettuces).

Therefore, the attempt to justify killing and eating these younger other-selves which was frequently cited:

---Plants are 2D and animals are also 2D so, therefore, eating animals is the same as eating plants---

...falls apart.


Animals are higher 2D. So is the occasional Grandfather Tree. But the blades of grass on your lawn? The leaves of a lettuce plant? A carrot? No, not likely.

It isn't such a simple matter of: We are 3D and they are 2D so therefore it's ok to kill them. No, not so simple at all. There are gradations in consciousness. Animals bleed red blood, like we do, for a reason. They have pain receptors and nervous systems, for a reason. They have the ability to feel pain and fear, for a reason. They feel complex, deep emotions like profound grief, for a reason.They struggle when threatened, and try to escape being harmed or killed, for a reason.

I submit that the line of speciesism has been drawn in the wrong place by students of the Law of One. All is One. But if there must be a demarcation, let it be where the blood runs red, rather than a number 2D or 3D, which isn't such a simple classification after all. It isn't so simple as animals and plants both being 2D...No, there are octaves of consciousness. There are gradations. There are attributes of self-awareness that occur somewhere along that very long density, at which point a process of fanning the spark of sentience begins, just as 3D entities are fanning the spark of love and compassion.

Even 2D entities - animals - are now displaying compassion. Say, what? Was that supposed to happen? What's going on here? Why are 2D entities demonstrating love and compassion, which are supposedly higher 3D traits? 

If anything, that makes it all the more obvious that they have more in common with us, than with the carrots in our garden. Cows aren't carrots. You can try and try and try to convince yourself that they are the same, but they aren't. As I said numerous times in the heated debates, just try killing a cow, and pull up a carrot from the ground, and compare. They are different.


Killing the cow is much more akin to killing a human, than to pulling up a carrot. That's just obvious.


I have stated this before, but now I present to you the Ra quotes that back up my assertions.


Related threads:


Bring4th Forums One > Olio  > 2D Entities Evolving?


Bring4th Forums Two > Science & Technology  > Scientists Say Animals Conscious...like us

19.15 Questioner: Then the newest third-density beings who’ve just made the transition from second are still strongly biased towards self-service. There must be many other mechanisms to create an awareness of the possibility of service to others.


I am wondering, first— two things. I’m wondering about the mechanism and I am wondering when the split takes place where the entity is able to continue on the road towards service to self that will eventually take him to fourth or fifth density.

I would assume that an entity can continue— can start, say, in second density with service totally to self and continue right on through and just stay on what we would call the path of service to self and never ever be pulled over. Is this correct?


Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. The second-density concept of serving self includes the serving of those associated with tribe or pack. This is not seen in second density as separation of self and other-self. All is seen as self since in some forms of second-density entities, if the tribe or pack becomes weakened, so does the entity within the tribe or pack.

The new or initial third-density entity has this innocent, shall we say, bias or distortion towards viewing those in the family, the society, as you would call, perhaps, country, as self. Thus though a distortion not helpful for progress in third density, it is without polarity.

The break becomes apparent when the entity perceives other-selves as other-selves and consciously determines to manipulate other-selves for the benefit of the self. This is the beginning of the road of which you speak.

I have made the case that animals are other-selves. Killing an other-self - who is clearly struggling to survive - is the ultimate manipulation.

40.3 Questioner: Thank you. I was also wondering if the first density corresponded somehow to the color red, the second to the color orange, the third to the color yellow and so on through the densities corresponding to the colors in perhaps a way so that the basic vibration that forms the photon that forms the core of all atomic particles would have a relationship to that color in the densityand, and that that vibration would step up for second, third, and fourth density corresponding to the increase in the vibration of the colors. Is this in any way correct?


Ra: I am Ra. This is more correct than you have stated. Firstly, you are correct in positing a quantum, if you will, as the nature of each density and further correct in assuming that these quanta may be seen to be of vibratory natures corresponding to color as you grasp this word. However, it is also true, as you have suspected but not asked, that each density is of the metaphysical characteristic complex of its ray. Thus in first density the red ray is the foundation for all that is to come. In second density the orange ray is that of movement and growth of the individual, this ray striving towards the yellow ray of self-conscious manifestations of a social nature as well as individual; third density being the equivalent, and so forth, each density being primarily its ray plus the attractions of the following ray pulling it forward in evolution and to some extent coloring or shading the chief color of that density.

Animals have social structures. Did you know that cows have best friends?


Freed Cows Jump for Joy

13.17 Questioner: Does this first density then progress to greater awareness?


Ra: The spiraling energy, which is the characteristic of what you call “light,” moves in straight line spiral thus giving spirals an inevitable vector upwards to a more comprehensive beingness with regards to intelligent infinity. Thus, first dimensional beingness strives towards the second-density lessons of a type of awareness which includes growth rather than dissolution or random change.


19.14 Questioner: Then we have second-density beings who have primarily motivation towards service to self and possibly a little bit of service to others with respect to their immediate families going into third density and carrying this bias with them but being in a position now where this bias will slowly be modified to one which is aimed toward a social complex and then ultimately toward union with the all. Am I correct?


Ra: I am Ra. You are correct.


19.6 Questioner: Who sent the aid to the second-density beings?

[font=sans-serif][font=sans-serif]Ra: I am Ra. We call ourselves the Confederation of Planets in the Service of the Infinite Creator. This is a simplification in order to ease the difficulty of understanding among your people. We hesitate to use the term, sound vibration, “understanding,” but it is closest to our meaning.
[/font][/font]

[font=sans-serif][font=sans-serif]Higher 2D entities are already starting to polarize STS/STO. [/font][/font]


Aid...Ra sends aid to 2D entities. 


[font=sans-serif][font=sans-serif]I invite you to ponder that. [/font][/font]


[font=sans-serif][font=sans-serif]Why are higher 2D entities valuable enough that Ra would send aid to them? [/font][/font]


[font=sans-serif][font=sans-serif]Further, if mind-boy complexes (higher 2D entities - animals) can make the jump to 3D harvestability because of use of catalyst, and 2D entities already start polarizing STS or STO, then what direction is the farm animal likely to polarize?[/font][/font]


Think about your beloved cat or dog...pampered like a baby, part of the family. Surely the seeds have been sown for a bias towards STO.


Now compare that to an entity every bit as intelligent and self-aware as your dog - a cow or pig or chicken - who lives his entire live in constant agony...cut off from his social circle, his family taken from him, never ever experiencing any love whatsoever, but in fact is kicked, prodded, poked, even mutilated without any anesthesia, then prodded down a chute running red with blood from his friends...he dies in a state of terror and pain...or maybe he is even scaled alive...or even cut in pieces and served on a plate, alive...tortured...s/he dies in a state of being tortured.

This is happening by the billions, right this very minute.


Ra sees fit to answer the call of 2D entities. 2D entities begin their polarization. What direction is that cow or pig likely to polarize in?

What causes a child to become a sociopath? Lack of bonding, coupled with abuse. This is well established.



Billions upon billions of these young souls - these younger other-selves - are waking up to full self-awareness in a state of fear and pain...extreme abuse. Is this planet producing a huge harvest of sociopathic, STS entities? Newly harvested 3D entities...with a distinct bias towards STS?

By eating animals, not only is it inherently STS towards that particular entity, but it is also aiding in the polarizing of great numbers of young 3D STS entities.

What dark planet is being inhabited right now by all those tortured farm animals who are graduating to 3D through the intense catalyst they just experienced?

I offer these thoughts in the context of the Law of One. Again, this is NOT yet another debate about eating meat. I ask these questions in all sincerity: Have you given any thought as to the seriousness of this situation? Again, Ra sees fit to answer the call of 2D entities.

Are we working with Ra to answer their call? Or...are we creating a nightmare population of sociopaths?


...

[Lighthead]

Here's an even other excerpt from the Ra material that you might like. You may or may not have already quoted this. Check this out:

84.2 Questioner: In the last session you mentioned least distorted complex protein in that the body complex of the instrument was capable of greatly increased distortion. Would you define the protein of which you spoke and we would like to know, increased distortion in which direction, towards health or ill-health?

Ra: I am Ra. We were, in the cautionary statement about complex protein, referring to the distortions of the animal protein which has been slaughtered and preservatives added in order to maintain the acceptability to your peoples of this non-living, physical material. It is well to attempt to find those items which are fresh and of the best quality possible in order to avoid increasing this particular entity’s distortions which may be loosely termed allergic.

We were speaking of the distortion towards disease which is potential at this space/time.

[Monica]

Here's an even other excerpt from the Ra material that you might like. You may or may not have already quoted this. Check this out:

84.2 Questioner: In the last session you mentioned least distorted complex protein in that the body complex of the instrument was capable of greatly increased distortion. Would you define the protein of which you spoke and we would like to know, increased distortion in which direction, towards health or ill-health?

Ra: I am Ra. We were, in the cautionary statement about complex protein, referring to the distortions of the animal protein which has been slaughtered and preservatives added in order to maintain the acceptability to your peoples of this non-living, physical material. It is well to attempt to find those items which are fresh and of the best quality possible in order to avoid increasing this particular entity’s distortions which may be loosely termed allergic.

We were speaking of the distortion towards disease which is potential at this space/time.

Yes, that particular quote has been presented in other threads, usually with the interpretation that it was the added preservatives that were the problem. But, it was a direct response to a question about Carla in particular, and specifically about Carla's particular allergic response, and says nothing about the consciousness of 2D entities or about the spiritual or karmic implications of dietary choices.

[Matt1]

I am veggie but i believe its possible to reach enlightenment eating meats. The Tibetan master eat pork and yak butter when they used to be in Tibet. Many of whom are believed to have reached rainbowbody and a loving awareness. That being said due to the area its difficult to grow veggies to eat, i think if its possible for you to eat veggie then it will be of a good service but if you really can't go veggie then i don't think it will stop you from moving on through the densities.

[Monica]

I just reread this and noticed something else:

The second density is the density of the higher plant life and animal life which exists without the upward drive towards the infinite.

We know from previous quotes that a higher 2D entity is a mind/body complex, but not yet a mind/body/spirit complex, which is a trait of 3D. We also know that there is a range, an octave of consciousness, within 2D.

The above quote can be interpreted 2 ways:

1. 2D are those plants and animals who lack an upward drive towards the infinite.

or

2. All plants and animals lack an upward drive towards the infinite.

It is subject to speculation, as to which interpretation is the one intended by Ra. Let's examine both:

We have no way of knowing whether #1 is correct, because there is no visible way of observing an upward drive towards the infinite. But if this is what Ra intended, then that would mean some plants and animals do exhibit this. I just don't see any way to determine that. Perhaps this is yet another subtle level in the octave of 2D consciousness...or perhaps it exists only in potentiation.

If #2 is correct, then all plants and animals lack an upward drive towards the infinite. But, we know that an upward drive towards the infinite is what differentiates 3D, and we also know that self-awareness is the criteria for graduation to 3D. So, is self-awareness the same as an upward drive towards the infinite, or merely the first step in that direction?

And, is self-awareness an attribute of the mind, or of the spirit?

Ra gives the answer here:

13.21 Questioner: Then how does the second density progress to the third?
Ra: I am Ra. The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.

It appears that becoming self-aware is the very definition of becoming a mind/body complex. Extrapolating further, then a 2D entity who is not yet self-aware is only a body complex. Hence, although all grass collectively has a group consciousness, the single blade of grass doesn't possess an individual mind...is not yet a mind/body complex. But, the fallen deer in the forest, left behind as food for wolves and feeling the pain of separation and fear, along with physical pain, in a vehicle with a nervous system and pain receptors (the hardware for the 'mind' software) certainly seems to exhibit obvious mind characteristics.

Likewise, the cows mourning for their lost calves, or bellowing for their sisters, their best friends, despite being surrounded by other cows in other social circles, certainly exhibit mind characteristics, just as surely as your dog or cat.

Keep in mind that investiture by 3D entities can help facilitate their evolution, but isn't necessary:

Ra: I am Ra. There were some second-density entities which made the graduation into third density with no outside stimulus but only the efficient use of experience.

Ie., some 2D entities do it on their own, just from catalyst, with no help from humans. So we're not talking about only 'pets' here.

So, in conclusion of my analysis of #1 above, it appears to me that even if #1 is Ra's intended view, it still doesn't matter. Even if all plants and animals lack an upward drive towards the infinite (an attribute of spirit) and thus aren't yet mind/body/spirit complexes, there is still a differentiation between lower 2D entities and higher 2D entities. This differentiation is the mind, the individual consciousness, which makes them mind/body complexes, in contrast to lower 2D entities, which are only body complexes.

Thus, we seem to have a demarcation in the octave of 2D consciousness.

Why does this matter? It matters because thus far, many people have insisted that the only important demarcation is that of the spirit. Ie., it's ok to kill 2D entities simply because they are only 2D...with 3D being the important demarcation at which time it is no longer ok to overpower the free will of an entity, and force them to do our bidding, enslave them,  and kill them.

I am proposing a different demarcation: one based on the mind rather than the spirit.

It makes more sense to base it on mind. An entity possessing a mind also possesses a nervous system and pain receptors. Is this a coincidence? I think not. It makes sense to me that those traits go together for a reason: Higher 2D entities have the hardware to accommodate individual consciousness, and are given myriad types of catalyst, of which being preyed upon is only one, in order to facilitate that leap in consciousness.

When does it happen? When the deer breaks her leg? When The cow's baby is taken? When the lion's teeth penetrate the gazelle's skin and pain is felt? Or a moment before that, when the gazelle is running, in a panic, all alone, left behind by the herd...separated from the collective?

Or had it already happened? Had that particular deer already grown in self-awareness, in tiny baby steps, just from the normal catalyst?

Wild animals, who have not yet been hunted, injured or preyed upon, have exhibited social structures, friendships, jealousy, and even the ability to play games and cunning tricks on one another. I once saw a documentary about monkeys in the jungle, who create elaborate games, just for fun. Surely an entity who takes actions just for fun, derives some sort of personal satisfaction, and where there is personal satisfaction, apart from actions taken merely for the good of the collective, then that is an obvious indication of self-awareness.

This indicates that many, if not most, animals in the wild may have already reached the point of self awareness. It seems reasonable to me that the simplest, most obvious outward sign of having a mind/body complex, is the the possession of pain receptors and a nervous system.

This is fortunate, as it gives us a way to identify these entities, who are beginning their journey towards 3D and are our younger other-selves, and whose call is being answered by Ra just as surely as ours is.

[Monica]

I am veggie but i believe its possible to reach enlightenment eating meats. The Tibetan master eat pork and yak butter when they used to be in Tibet. Many of whom are believed to have reached rainbowbody and a loving awareness. That being said due to the area its difficult to grow veggies to eat, i think if its possible for you to eat veggie then it will be of a good service but if you really can't go veggie then i don't think it will stop you from moving on through the densities.

Matt1, I would appreciate it if we all kept this discussion to the consciousness of the 2D entities. When speaking of eating animals, let's do so from the perspective of the animals, rather than from the perspective of the human who is eating them. (There are already numerous threads on the topic of eating animals from the human perspective.) Thank you for helping me keep this on-topic! 

[Minyatur]

I won't state my opinion as I already did elsewhere, but have you actually heard anyone here deny awareness and suffering in animals?

[Spaced]

When speaking of eating animals, let's do so from the perspective of the animals, rather than from the perspective of the human who is eating them.

How is it possible to be aware of the perspective of animals? Our cognitive systems are totally different. The only thing we can do is to make assumptions based on the similarities between human and animal cognition, which is still coming from a human perspective.

[Monica]

How is it possible to be aware of the perspective of animals? Our cognitive systems are totally different. The only thing we can do is to make assumptions based on the similarities between human and animal cognition, which is still coming from a human perspective.

You think they're different? Have you watched the video about observations of complex, even profound human-like emotions, motivations, behaviors, and social interactions in animals?

[Monica]

I won't state my opinion as I already did elsewhere, but have you actually heard anyone here deny awareness and suffering in animals?

Yes. Others have acknowledged it but said it didn't really matter, since they were 2D.

[Minyatur]

I won't state my opinion as I already did elsewhere, but have you actually heard anyone here deny awareness and suffering in animals?

Yes. Others have acknowledged it but said it didn't really matter, since they were 2D.

We live in a world where humans kill humans on a daily basis, so it surely will be harder to make people care about 2D.

[Monica]

We live in a world where humans kill humans on a daily basis, so it surely will be harder to make people care about 2D.

True. But, curiously, I have observed that people in the general population seem to be more open to caring about them than the people here at B4, and I'm wondering if it's because of this 2D/3D thing. It seems to be very deeply ingrained in the minds of Law of One students that Ra has given the ok to enslave and kill animals as we wish, by categorizing animals in the same density as plants.

I am calling this into question, and I am providing quotes from Ra to back up my assertions. I contend that mind (apparently indicated by pain receptors and a nervous system) is a much more reasonable demarcation than the broad 2D classification, which, as I've just shown, has a very wide range of consciousness contained within it.

What I'm getting at here is:

1. I am questioning the status quo, which is the only demarcation that matters is the one of density; ie. 2D vs 3D. I am exploring what Ra said about the octave of consciousness in 2D and suggesting that this might be a more reasonable demarcation in regards to our participation in animal suffering, enslavement and slaughter.

and

2. Ra has stated that they answer the call of higher 2D entities. I am calling into question the common practice of supporting the cruelty to and killing of higher 2D entities, while Ra is answering their call. Is this helping Ra or working against Ra? If Ra considers them important enough to answer their call, then how do we justify controlling them, enslaving them, supporting cruelty to them, killing them, and eating them to satisfy our taste?

This has obvious implications in regards to the issue of eating meat, but the focus is how our choices impact the evolution of our younger other-selves...the very entities whom Ra is trying to assist by answering their call.

[Minyatur]

I think it's more about that Ra said there is no mistake nor right or wrong. From my perspective everything that is happening on this sphere is the One Intelligent Infinity exploring many-ness and so in a way it is God's will to experience all of this. In infinite many-ness there is infinite scenarios unfolding giving birth to new perspectives creating new scenarios and thus forth.

We all have different roles, mine seems to be that a mediator and for this I must be less polarized. I stand near the line of neutrality being slightly more positive than negative in my behaviors to be near the center of the polarity of perspective. Because of this I usually tend to defend the less-liked side or the one which is harder to understand as I wish not to actually take a side for myself. I seek to understand how Oneness is present in every experience happening on this sphere because after all one may reject some behaviors but in the end that person is also the one doing these very behaviors. We all are one thing that grew through different paths which gave birth to different behaviors and perspectives.

Others will have the role to bring humanity toward a 4D STO understanding while yet others will have the role to bring it to a 4D STS understanding each being very polarized in opposites. But this website is full of people who came here also to understand Oneness in all of it's ways of manifesting, so in my opinion it is quite normal that a lot of them will be less open to caring about it as they probably feel they should learn acceptance of it rather than rejection.

[Monica]

I think it's more about that Ra said there is no mistake nor right or wrong. From my perspective everything that is happening on this sphere is the One Intelligent Infinity exploring many-ness and so in a way it is God's will to experience all of this. In infinite many-ness there is infinite scenarios unfolding giving birth to new perspectives creating new scenarios and thus forth.

Ra also spoke of choice, and polarizing, and many other things. To keep this thread on-topic, I will suggest checking out these threads, for discussions about what Ra meant about acceptance, and whether 'there is no right and wrong' applies to 3D.

Bring4th Forums One > Strictly Law of One Material  v > Law of One Religion?

Bring4th Forums One > Strictly Law of One Material  v > Acceptance and Will

As you said yourself, in another thread:

IMO, there's a difference between accepting that it is a reccuring natural part of human societies and supporting it.

[Monica]

Just found this related thread:

Bring4th Forums One > Strictly Law of One Material v > What is an Other-Self? Are 2D Entities Other-Selves?

[Minyatur]

I think it's more about that Ra said there is no mistake nor right or wrong. From my perspective everything that is happening on this sphere is the One Intelligent Infinity exploring many-ness and so in a way it is God's will to experience all of this. In infinite many-ness there is infinite scenarios unfolding giving birth to new perspectives creating new scenarios and thus forth.

Ra also spoke of choice, and polarizing, and many other things. To keep this thread on-topic, I will suggest checking out these threads, for discussions about what Ra meant about acceptance, and whether 'there is no right and wrong' applies to 3D.

Bring4th Forums One > Strictly Law of One Material  v > Law of One Religion?

Bring4th Forums One > Strictly Law of One Material  v > Acceptance and Will

I personnaly think the Ra material has a bias toward STO which is normal considering it is information given from a STO social memory complex to a STO working group. But to me the One Intelligent Infinity has no such bias and it is apparent in Ra's words.

So as I implied in my last post, your work and aspirations are well and good as you are playing your part in the balance of this planet. But in the end this planet is still an exploration of many-ness by the One Intelligent Infinity so there is still every other manifestation of many-ness which are unlike your own which is also well. What's more is that you and me are each and everyone of those.

[Minyatur]

I'm not telling you that you are wrong because you are not. Just hinting at the fact that you are also every meat eater in Creation. To my understanding the only thing your message is lacking is something we find in some channelings like : "As the Confederation entities always make a point of saying, please use your discrimination and judgment in assessing this material. If something rings true to you, fine. If something does not resonate, please leave it behind, for neither we nor those of the Confederation would wish to be a stumbling block for any."

To me it seems like you have too much expectation for people to resonate with this which is something that will most likely not be fufilled.

[Monica]

I'm not telling you that you are wrong because you are not. Just hinting at the fact that you are also every meat eater in Creation. To my understanding the only thing your message is lacking is something we find in some channelings like : "As the Confederation entities always make a point of saying, please use your discrimination and judgment in assessing this material. If something rings true to you, fine. If something does not resonate, please leave it behind, for neither we nor those of the Confederation would wish to be a stumbling block for any."

To me it seems like you have too much expectation for people to resonate with this which is something that will most likely not be fufilled.

Minyatur, please keep the discussion on-topic. Thank you.

[ricdaw]

The purpose of this thread is to explore what Ra says about 2D entities.

There are gradations in consciousness. Animals bleed red blood, like we do, for a reason. They have pain receptors and nervous systems, for a reason. They have the ability to feel pain and fear, for a reason. They feel complex, deep emotions like profound grief, for a reason.They struggle when threatened, and try to escape being harmed or killed, for a reason.

Higher 2D entities are already starting to polarize STS/STO.

By eating animals, not only is it inherently STS towards that particular entity, but it is also aiding in the polarizing of great numbers of young 3D STS entities.

Are we creating a nightmare population of sociopaths?

Polarization is exclusively a 3D mechanism, not a 2D mechanism.  Animals don't consciously polarize.

The Law of Free Will applies to animals too.  I will accept that the captivity and torture of animals certainly does a disservice to us humans, but the choice of those animals to incarnate here/now and be subject to such treatment must also be part of the equation.  Whether they are here out of a freely chosen desire to serve us (so we can eat them) a freely chosen desire to experience pain and suffering (to advance their spritual growth) or a freely chosen desire to model human emotions back to us so that some of us will become outspoken champions for animal rights (you Monica), they are still here by exercise of their animal-version of free will.  

[Monica]

Related thread:

Bring4th Forums One > Life on Planet Earth  v > Animals are conscious and should be treated as such

[Monica]

Polarization is exclusively a 3D mechanism, not a 2D mechanism.  Animals don't consciously polarize.

Whether consciously or not, they do indeed begin to polarize in 2D:

19.14 Questioner: Then we have second-density beings who have primarily motivation towards service to self and possibly a little bit of service to others with respect to their immediate families going into third density and carrying this bias with them but being in a position now where this bias will slowly be modified to one which is aimed toward a social complex and then ultimately toward union with the all. Am I correct?


Ra: I am Ra. You are correct.

The Law of Free Will applies to animals too.  I will accept that the captivity and torture of animals certainly does a disservice to us humans, but the choice of those animals to incarnate here/now and be subject to such treatment must also be part of the equation.  Whether they are here out of a freely chosen desire to serve us (so we can eat them) a freely chosen desire to experience pain and suffering (to advance their spritual growth) or a freely chosen desire to model human emotions back to us so that some of us will become outspoken champions for animal rights (you Monica), they are still here by exercise of their animal-version of free will.  

On some level, the woman chooses to be raped. Does that mean we should participate in rape?

[Minyatur]

The Law of Free Will applies to animals too.  I will accept that the captivity and torture of animals certainly does a disservice to us humans, but the choice of those animals to incarnate here/now and be subject to such treatment must also be part of the equation.  Whether they are here out of a freely chosen desire to serve us (so we can eat them) a freely chosen desire to experience pain and suffering (to advance their spritual growth) or a freely chosen desire to model human emotions back to us so that some of us will become outspoken champions for animal rights (you Monica), they are still here by exercise of their animal-version of free will.  

On some level, the woman chooses to be raped. Does that mean we should participate in rape?

You already are, else there would be no rapist. What you have the ability to stop reflects your role in a given situation of experiences but what you cannot stop must also be. If you stop a rape, it was never meant to be.

[AngelofDeath]

I'm not sure I buy this equation, it doesn't work out in free will.

The man says YES. The woman says NO. The man uses his YES to overpower the woman's NO. Thus, the free will of the woman has been infringed because her NO was negated by the free will of the man.

If the universe is infinite in all its probabilities or possibilities, then nothing is meant to be. That means a world and universe that is more positive than it is negative would be completely acceptable to the One. Same for the other way around. That means that the idea that every time something positive/negative does or doesn't happen, it happens elsewhere, is actually full of holes because in truth the infinite flexibility of the universe could easily accommodate a more polarized universe with no loss to itself.

What I believe actually happens to any such probability/possibility is that it returns to a state of absolute potential. Thus, by choosing to not engage in acts of any particular type, those acts become less active in the collective consciousness as energy is reduced and the concept returns to pure potential. Thus, to choose not to do a heinous act doesn't make it happen elsewhere, it makes the energy completely dissipate and it returns to a state of potential. (If you have convicted yourself to your choice, of course.) The same is true for both positive and negative actions and hence the more you do of one or the other, the more you polarize that energy type and depolarize its opposite.

[Minyatur]

I think there is a distinction between space/time free will and time/space free will. Time/space free will is what is meant to be and transcend time because every experience will happen somewhere in space/time and that cannot be stopped. This free will covers your path as a whole and is not based on the limited perspective of an incarnated entity. The first distortion is a time/space law which is not apparent in space/time.

You cannot stop the One Intelligent Infinity to experience something, you can only have a role in it.

[Monica]

You already are, else there would be no rapist.

I am referring to THIS self...not me 20 iterations away. I'm guessing that there aren't very many rapists here at B4. THIS self - the ME, the YOU who are reading this...we have free will...we have Choice. Our choices matter.

What you have the ability to stop reflects your role in a given situation of experiences but what you cannot stop must also be.

Agreed!

If you stop a rape, it was never meant to be.

Well, I personally believe in multiple timelines, so the 'God's will' concept doesn't work for me. But that's a whole 'nother topic.

[AngelofDeath]

I don't buy that, free will isn't some bank of experiences which manifest, it's a principle of freedom of awareness. I don't buy anything that clings to 'inevitability'.

There is free will, the freedom of awareness of the individuated portions of the Creator. The Law of Free Will is that pertaining to the respecting of that freedom of awareness, accepting it without controlling it, a responsibility. There are no other "free wills", only subsets of these. The second distortion and third distortion are already established aspects of that freedom of awareness. Freedom of awareness found focus which is Logos, which is Love. That Love then produced Light or Intelligent Energy, which is the apparent substance of all creation. This is if you are following the Ra Material cosmology, of course.

I do not agree with the way you have separated time/space and space/time. That is an illusory separation that is part of the veil.

Edit: Also, it's not about "stopping experiences", that's silly. The Creator is aware of all of its experiences. The Creator doesn't need anything. These experiences are for US, as the Creator experiencing itself, we are not obligated to experience anything. Space/time and time/space are inherently blank canvases. The only reason things would have to be that way is because you intend to shape them that way with your own iteration of the Creator's will.

[Minyatur]

I also do believe in multiple timelines but what I meant apply to the whole of it from my perspective. If a timeline has set for itself to experience rape, it will. If a timeline has set for itself to experience almost being raped, it will. From my perspective Time happens all at once, the linear experience of time is the illusion of experience.

[Minyatur]

Time/space free will is made of space/time allowed and denied desires both having their purpose in spiritual growth for each given path none being like unto the other.

[Monica]

The man says YES. The woman says NO. The man uses his YES to overpower the woman's NO. Thus, the free will of the woman has been infringed because her NO was negated by the free will of the man.

Exactly! Her conscious free will says No. And yet, rape does happen. The man overpowers her. So, on some level, there must be a karmic explanation as to why the man overpowered her.

Likewise, with the animals. Their free will says "No" when they shriek in terror and struggle to get away.

I don't deny that, clearly, there has been some cosmic reason why this overpowering of their free will has been going on all this time, just as wars and other atrocities have been going on. Why is there 'evil'? That is the perennial question which religions have sought to answer, and so far, the Law of One comes closest to answering it, in my opinion, but even Ra's answer is incomplete.

At any rate, the greater question of why there is an STS path to begin with is beyond the scope of this thread. Getting back on topic, the real question is, in my opinion, What is our role in perpetuating this obvious overpowering of sentient beings' free will? And, do the common attempts at justification - that they are only 2D and therefore their free will doesn't matter - hold any water when the broad range of consciousness (as defined by Ra) is taken into consideration?

:idea:  Does anyone have any thoughts on the ideas I have presented in the first post? (Please watch the video before replying, as that is the centerpiece of this discussion.)

If the universe is infinite in all its probabilities or possibilities, then nothing is meant to be. That means a world and universe that is more positive than it is negative would be completely acceptable to the One. Same for the other way around. That means that the idea that every time something positive/negative does or doesn't happen, it happens elsewhere, is actually full of holes because in truth the infinite flexibility of the universe could easily accommodate a more polarized universe with no loss to itself.

What I believe actually happens to any such probability/possibility is that it returns to a state of absolute potential. Thus, by choosing to not engage in acts of any particular type, those acts become less active in the collective consciousness as energy is reduced and the concept returns to pure potential. Thus, to choose not to do a heinous act doesn't make it happen elsewhere, it makes the energy completely dissipate and it returns to a state of potential. (If you have convicted yourself to your choice, of course.) The same is true for both positive and negative actions and hence the more you do of one or the other, the more you polarize that energy type and depolarize its opposite.

That's an interesting way to look at it!  

[Monica]

I also do believe in multiple timelines but what I meant apply to the whole of it from my perspective. If a timeline has set for itself to experience rape, it will. If a timeline has set for itself to experience almost being raped, it will. From my perspective Time happens all at once, the linear experience of time is the illusion of experience.

Are you saying that a timeline makes choices?